If you could say ONE sentence to non permies...

Hmmm... Maybe this one:

Permaculture creates abundance while restoring and maintaining resources, while modern agriculture draws abundance by consuming finite resources.

I tried to use subtle language to display a difference in how the abundance itself comes into being, aside form where the resources originate. Sort of a double-wammy I thought.

I was a research scientist trained in a rigorous science (chemistry) . The laws of chemistry and physics are the same everywhere and every-time. With that bias I am skeptical of claims that permaculture is a science... Industrial agriculture qualifies as a science in my mind, because soil samples are taken to a lab, and absorption spectrometry is done on the samples, and so many pounds of boron, or other elements are added to the fields... I don't see that happening in permaculture. In permaculture someone asks a question and the response is "It depends"... That doesn't seem like a science based answer to me. That seems like the answer an artist would give, or a philosopher, or a druid...

For what it's worth, I graduated with a Bachelor of Arts in Chemistry, which was a much more rigorous degree than a bachelor of science. I do my plant breeding as an artist, and not as a scientist. With all that said, here's my contribution to the topic of this thread:

Permaculture is the art of re-integrating humans into nature.

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:
I was a research scientist trained in a rigorous science (chemistry) . The laws of chemistry and physics are the same everywhere and every-time. With that bias I am skeptical of claims that permaculture is a science... Industrial agriculture qualifies as a science in my mind, because soil samples are taken to a lab, and absorption spectrometry is done on the samples, and so many pounds of boron, or other elements are added to the fields... I don't see that happening in permaculture. In permaculture someone asks a question and the response is "It depends"... That doesn't seem like a science based answer to me. That seems like the answer an artist would give, or a philosopher, or a druid...

For what it's worth, I graduated with a Bachelor of Arts in Chemistry, which was a much more rigorous degree than a bachelor of science. I do my plant breeding as an artist, and not as a scientist. With all that said, here's my contribution to the topic of this thread:

Permaculture is the art of re-integrating humans into nature.

I think "it depends" is a statement of "In a system with more variables than can be controlled in the same way as a more limited system, we can't effectively isolate and must instead recognize that the answer may vary based on the minutia of the situation." Sort of saying that there is science, but there is also intuition because the system is to complex when all taken as a whole and that if we isolate elements, they won't act the same as when they are a part of that system. Art and science as one.

It's longer than one sentence but I just came up with an idea not long ago.

https://permies.com/t/49279/permaculture/Idea-Spreading-Word-Permaculture

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:
I was a research scientist trained in a rigorous science (chemistry) . The laws of chemistry and physics are the same everywhere and every-time. With that bias I am skeptical of claims that permaculture is a science... Industrial agriculture qualifies as a science in my mind, because soil samples are taken to a lab, and absorption spectrometry is done on the samples, and so many pounds of boron, or other elements are added to the fields... I don't see that happening in permaculture.

Joseph, while I for the most part agree, when you consider the toxicity that is ignored/encouraged by big ag and the FDA as well as the denial of any increased nutrition based on good soils by those same groups, I say BOTH are not fully based in science and there ARE efforts to quantify the benefits of organic and permaculture farming. In addition, science has a long history of denying the existence of anything it can't measure or detect, a very unscientific approach. Then detection or measurement capabilities expand and "fringe" science becomes accepted common knowledge and no matter how many times it happens, no humility is learned.

As a concept, I prefer science over "feel good" stuff but the reality is both very much have flaws, often ones the adherents are all too often blind to.

When I use the term permaculture and people ask what that is my reply is "Permaculture is about permanent culture. Living and building a culture that is so balanced it can be sustained permanently."

What is Permaculture?   This would not be a question if we called the alternative Chemiculture.

As discussed, it largely depends on your audience and what you need to get across.

For me, my standard is:
'permaculture is a system of design that learns from nature rather than fighting against it so you have to do less work in the long run and have more productive yields'.

Permaculture is a way of living without harming planet Earth or anyone living on it.

Permaculture is the radical idea that humans are also nature. if we live from that understanding our interactions with the rest of nature will be beneficial, and when our environment heals we do too.

Permaculture in one sentence to a non permie.....

Permaculture is humans enjoying a lifestyle that works in harmony with nature rather than expending the vast amounts of energy (and subsequent destruction) used to fight it.

Cassie Langstraat wrote:If you could only say ONE sentence to non permies about permaculture, to try to make them understand the importance of it, what would it be?

Brevity = power.

Permaculture is a system of functional design where we adapt our landscape to provide clean food, water, energy, and communities with minimal maintenance over time.

wayne stephen wrote:The one who coined the term defined it as :

"Permaculture is the conscious design and maintenence of agriculturally productive ecosystems which have the diversity , stability , and resilience of natural ecosystems." - Bill Mollison

Wowzers.  I've been trolling this website for years and I was never sure exactly what permaculture was until I read this sentence.  Thank you Wayne and props to Bill Mollison; when you're right you're right.

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:

I was a research scientist trained in a rigorous science (chemistry) . The laws of chemistry and physics are the same everywhere and every-time. With that bias I am skeptical of claims that permaculture is a science... Industrial agriculture qualifies as a science in my mind, because soil samples are taken to a lab, and absorption spectrometry is done on the samples, and so many pounds of boron, or other elements are added to the fields... I don't see that happening in permaculture.


Not all the laws of physics and chemistry are the same everywhere and everytime. The speed of light for example is varies in different locations and different times, for some reason scientists have just decided to take an average from some readings and haven't bothered to question why it can vary so much. Science tends to do its observing in what it calls a controlled study which mostly means how does something react in this particular lab environment. Permaculture practices observation in the actual environment of the observed. Since i live outside of a lab environment observations made outside of that environment are more useful to me. Weather or not this observation and assessment process is considered scientific or not doesn't really matter to me.

Permaculture - the body of best practices in human cultivation of food aggregated from centuries of Earth friendly practice and applied continuously to sustain soil, soul, and living community, defining a PERMAnent agriCULTURE.

Ultimately, what you say should be tuned to your audience, so there may not BE a one size fits all, but it was a fun idea.

"...ONE sentence to non permies about permaculture, to try to make them understand the importance of it, what would it be? "

Not the most warm and fuzzy comment, but is probably accurate and reflects the importance of thinking in a permaculture way:    "Actions have Consequences".

Well, I don't know if it is productive or if I would advise articulating it; but the one recurring sentence that comes to mind is:

Why the hell do you want to fight nature so much?"

It is my one thought anytime I get into a conversation or watch someone in traditional agriculture.  A more productive comment might be:  "Do you know there is an easier way to achieve what your doing?"  But the response is usually along the lines of maximizing revenue... even at the risk of an economic loss.  

Permaculture is an ethically based holistic design science rooted in observing and aligning with the patterns of nature to produce a surplus yield while maintaining the resilience and health of the ecosystem indefinitely, and enhancing it over time, all on current solar income.  

In permaculture core ethics lead to scientifically based methods designed to create intentional ecologies that sustain life indefinitely on current solar income while providing a surplus for human beings.  Through careful observation and interaction, and other scientifically based methods, we gain Information and understanding about the core patterns at work in nature.  Using this information and patterns, we attempt to design and then facilitate/orchestrate ecologies that maximize beneficial interactions that produce abundance for ourselves and enrich the ability of the ecosystem to maintain itself indefinitely, on current solar income.  We speed up succession to our advantage both by disadvantaging unwanted species that would compete, and advantaging beneficial species that will enhance the succession for which we have a preference.

Permiculture is a design modality based on ethical principles to aply natural prosesses to your life stile to produce an abundance for yourself and others and the planet itself.

I think that could apply to anywhere from an appartment with a windowsil to a large acarage comercial landholding.

Permaculture - People, animals and plants - all working together to improve Earth.

Permaculture: a toolkit for a sustainable lifestyle.

Permaculture is the study and implementation of harmonious patterns/designs within nature for the mutual improvement of mankind and the ecosystem.  

Keep 'em coming guys. I know memes can be so silly and trivial, but they really do help to get a point across the attention span of today's internet users! I've just created a Bill Mollison one, and will be putting together a handful more in the coming weeks. And of course, if it's by you originally, your name will be on it

"Permaculture is a decision making tool for arriving at regenerative solutions."  --Toby Hemenway

"Nature to be commanded, must be obeyed." Francis Bacon.

Bit too intense?

Come on over and see what we're doing!

     DO YOU WANT TO DEPEND ON A DIESEL TRUCK FOR EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO LIVE .....??

You have to try this [insert fruit or veggie name here] I grew.

Very cool thread, inspired me to come up with a few own attempts:


Premise 1:
"Modern agriculture - like mining and all other modern industrial processes -
draws energy and ressources from the land to the cities.
Permaculture is "a Design science with ethics" (G.Lawton) and is about keeping and storing energy where
it is and restoring what is already lost."

Modification of Premise 1:
"Industrial Civilization - with modern agriculture, mining and all other modern industrial processes -
draws energy and ressources from the land to the cities.
Permaculture is "a Design science with ethics" (G.Lawton) and is about keeping and storing energy where
it is and restoring what is already lost."
(Me)

"Agriculture is consuming soil, Permaculture is building soil."
(Me)

„Agricultural societies - Civilisations - always lead to war, waste, and genocide.
(i recommend the work of e.g Derrick Jensen (books), the historian David E. Stannard (books)
or Toby Hemenway (talks) for sharp and clear analysis);
Permaculture is about ending the war for a future of peace and plenty.
(Bill Mollison; [modified])

"Only permies will survive."
(Me)

„Permaculture is really kind of envisioning a horticultural society as opposed to an agricultural
society“
(Toby Hemenway)

„Agriculture is the conversion of ecosystems into people."
(Toby Hemenway)
„Permaculture is people building ecosystems“
(Me)

The dominant culture's story:
"The gods made the world for man, but they botched the job, so we had to take matters in to our own,
more competent hands."
Permaculture's story:
"The gods made man for the world, the same way they made salmon and sparrows and rabbits for the world;
this seems to have worked pretty well so far, so we can take it easy and leave the running of the world
to the gods."
(Daniel Quinn (1992): Ishmael, p.241 [modified])

Gardening the way mother nature intended.

If any of that spray makes it to me, I'll start with your windows.   :-)

A buddy just bought some acreage. My one sentence:

You only have one chance to have chemical, herbicide, pesticide free land. Its like an unrestored vintage car. Its only original once.