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garden master
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I think it helps to think about Permies as a publication instead of as a discussion forum... Publications get to choose the audience they publish for, and the tone of the publication. When I write for publication, I don't take offense if the editors ask me to change something. It's what editors do.
 
steward
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Thanks, Joseph, I think that's a great analogy.  My impression is that Paul wants this website to be a resource for those seeking information, including some what could be considered "alternative" information.  He's very keen on web searches bringing up permies.com pages and such.

A web search on "hugelkultur" is how I found permies.com, years ago.

So, the point is not really to convince others of "the truth," but to share experiences and expose others to your own successes and failures.  For me, the "My Progress Gleying a Pond with Pigs" thread is the quintessential example of an awesome permies thread.  I heard sepp holzer say that pigs are good for making ponds, yes, but how much more awesome to look at a pond being developed on very gravelly soil by the presence and action of pigs!
 
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I got a probation thing for the post.  A bit of an oversight on my part.  No biggie to me and I apologize but is habit for me to speak as I see it without couching my words to constraints.

I write this as I was guided and not slapped!  I apologize and will try to keep the context correct in the forum section for which I speak. 

Otherwise, nothing to see here.  Literally haha, my humor for the probation post.

Harry Soloman.
 
gardener
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Harry Soloman wrote:I got a probation thing for the post.  A bit of an oversight on my part.  No biggie to me and I apologize but is habit for me to speak as I see it without couching my words to constraints.

I write this as I was guided and not slapped!  I apologize and will try to keep the context correct in the forum section for which I speak. 

Otherwise, nothing to see here.  Literally haha, my humor for the probation post.

Harry Soloman.


I've had a few myself. Thank you for doing the effort on mending the post. Welcome to Permies and hope you're here for a long time and enjoy what's on offer.
 
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I understand the "your forum, your rules."  I think the automated message would be more helpful if it said why the post had been moderated.  Thanks.  I'm not always good at guessing what needs to be changed.
 
Mother Tree
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Lori Whit wrote:I think the automated message would be more helpful if it said why the post had been moderated.


I believe that the PM you were sent explained that all discussion of ethics and politics had to be removed as they are subjects that are restricted to the cider press, which you are not yet eligible to post in. 
 
master steward
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More information on the cider press can be found here.
 
Lori Whit
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Burra Maluca wrote:
Lori Whit wrote:I think the automated message would be more helpful if it said why the post had been moderated.


I believe that the PM you were sent explained that all discussion of ethics and politics had to be removed as they are subjects that are restricted to the cider press, which you are not yet eligible to post in. 


I'm afraid it was rather lost to me in all the technical speak.  Thank you for explaining.  (I should have guessed about politics--I didn't about ethics!)
 
Burra Maluca
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Basically it's the bit in bold in the middle of the PM.
 
r ranson
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Lori,

It's a great topic you started and one well worth talking about.  I'm looking forward to participating in the thread and sharing my experiences once it's open again to the public.  With the first post of the thread on probation, the contents of the thread are only visible to staff and the OP (in this case you).  Until the edits are approved, it won't be open to the public. 

If we can focus on the solution part of it and practical aspects of how it can be achieved that would be great.  Later on, when you have enough apples, we can look at the ethical and political elements to your idea in the cider press. 
 
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Today I posted a reply to a thread in the frugality forum that got a couple of thumbs up and someone even gave me a slice of pie. Then I got a moosage saying my post is on probation, but I can't figure out what I need to edit to make it acceptable. Can anyone offer guidance? Here's the post, a reply to a thread in the frugality forum:

Here are a few websites I like for cheap eating ideas:

Hillbilly Housewife and her $45 Emergency Menu for 4 to 6, as well as her meatier $70 Low Cost Menu for 4 to 6. Of course your actual price will probably be more because 1) inflation during the few years that have passed since she first posted these menus, 2) regional & seasonal price variations, & 3) buying organic & beyond costs more. Still, I think her menus offer a handy place to start, and your cost could be offset a bit if you already have some of the ingredients in your larder.

This other lady calculates cheaper ways to make stuff and has lots of yummy recipes: Budget Bytes

And this one is a vegan meal planning service that uses up everything you buy each week down to the last bit: Meal Mentor
You can try it for free here Plant-Based 7-Day Sample Meal Plan
 
master steward
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Howdy Allison, The post looks great. It was just that one of the other members here wanted to give you more apples but had run out,(some folks are only able to give out a few apples a day), and the probation button was used to notify other staff to give you more apples. Sorry for the confusion.
 
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I've read this thread in great detail and still can't say I'm at all clear on what the rules are in any consistent and technical sense. I too feel like I got my hand slapped, and in the case of my particular experience it was clearly a gross misunderstanding of the intent of my statement. There was little to no guidance on what changes I was actually supposed to make, so I just feel awkward about trying to post anything at this point. Not a very welcoming atmosphere on some levels. I generally feel like most places are under-moderated and allow too much hostility. I applaud that this site tries to keep the discourse civil. I just don't think my way of communicating is likely to be greeted with much understanding. Though I'm from the Midwest, I can really relate to the notion of having trouble communicating with Midwesterners in a succinct and direct manner. In my case its an issue of having an autistic personality, but either way the direct nature of how I communicate doesn't seem to fit in well here. Prioritizing emotional statements over technical ones just makes my head hurt to ponder honestly. Its a shame though because I really find a lot of the topics here to be valuable and fascinating despite all the censorship. Personally, I find a learn a great deal from studying the perspectives outside my own. I try to avoid building a "Great Wall of China" around my mind, lest I stagnate within its confines.
 
pollinator
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Dangus McFinghin wrote:I've read this thread in great detail and still can't say I'm at all clear on what the rules are in any consistent and technical sense...


That's because Paul, the owner, deliberately doesn't lay out a set of rules. A set of rules invites people to argue and play sea lawyer. Instead, he and the moderators make decisions based on principles, including "be nice" and "Nobody gets to tell others that they're wrong here." If you are always nice and don't tell others they're wrong, I don't think you'll have any trouble.
 
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Dangus McFinghin wrote:I've read this thread in great detail and still can't say I'm at all clear on what the rules are in any consistent and technical sense. I too feel like I got my hand slapped, and in the case of my particular experience it was clearly a gross misunderstanding of the intent of my statement. There was little to no guidance on what changes I was actually supposed to make, so I just feel awkward about trying to post anything at this point. Not a very welcoming atmosphere on some levels. I generally feel like most places are under-moderated and allow too much hostility. I applaud that this site tries to keep the discourse civil. I just don't think my way of communicating is likely to be greeted with much understanding. Though I'm from the Midwest, I can really relate to the notion of having trouble communicating with Midwesterners in a succinct and direct manner. In my case its an issue of having an autistic personality, but either way the direct nature of how I communicate doesn't seem to fit in well here. Prioritizing emotional statements over technical ones just makes my head hurt to ponder honestly. Its a shame though because I really find a lot of the topics here to be valuable and fascinating despite all the censorship. Personally, I find a learn a great deal from studying the perspectives outside my own. I try to avoid building a "Great Wall of China" around my mind, lest I stagnate within its confines.


Dangus, this is a great site, well moderated and very much worth hanging in there if the information here suits your needs.  I'm guessing here...I think I kind of remember the post that might be the one of yours that disappeared and I think it might have had to do with what sounded a bit aggressive about humans vs cats?  anyway the probation notice is standard but also includes a sentence or so about what to change pertaining to the particular post.
You are very welcome here and most any ideas that don't tread on the 'be nice' rule pass.  Included under 'be nice' though is the idea that no one here is 'less than perfect' and should not be treated so....that leaves space and comfort for all sorts of new ideas and thoughts.  Something like you were bringing up (possibly?) might have fit in the 'cider press' where we can hash out more controversial subjects, but you would first need to earn the privilege to post there through apples for good posts.
 
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I have found three things really improve the quality and useability of my posts.

1) Avoid posting when angry. Don't respond until you've calmed down. I remember one conversation I had, I think with Miles Flansburg, about which I apologised after, and was truly ashamed about. I know that we all get passionate about the things we post, otherwise we wouldn't invest so much time in it. In that same vein:

2)Avoid ad hominem arguments. If you find yourself unable to state your point without the word "you," something has probably gone off the rails.

-CK
 
Allison Gessner
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Chris Kott wrote:I have found three things really improve the quality and useability of my posts.

1) Avoid posting when angry. Don't respond until you've calmed down. I remember one conversation I had, I think with Miles Flansburg, about which I apologised after, and was truly ashamed about. I know that we all get passionate about the things we post, otherwise we wouldn't invest so much time in it. In that same vein:

2)Avoid ad hominem arguments. If you find yourself unable to state your point without the word "you," something has probably gone off the rails.

-CK


What's the 3rd thing?
 
Chris Kott
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3) See points one and two.

I guess I forgot three.

-CK
 
Dangus McFinghin
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Judith Browning wrote:Dangus, this is a great site, well moderated and very much worth hanging in there if the information here suits your needs.  I'm guessing here...I think I kind of remember the post that might be the one of yours that disappeared and I think it might have had to do with what sounded a bit aggressive about humans vs cats?  anyway the probation notice is standard but also includes a sentence or so about what to change pertaining to the particular post.
You are very welcome here and most any ideas that don't tread on the 'be nice' rule pass.  Included under 'be nice' though is the idea that no one here is 'less than perfect' and should not be treated so....that leaves space and comfort for all sorts of new ideas and thoughts.  Something like you were bringing up (possibly?) might have fit in the 'cider press' where we can hash out more controversial subjects, but you would first need to earn the privilege to post there through apples for good posts.


Thanks to all for the replies. I grew up reading the Fox Fire books and I used to do blacksmithing out of my dad's back yard until the city shut me down. I've always loved old timey crafts and DIY thinking. I do find this site to be an interesting resource and I do actually appreciate the "be nice" mentality even if I don't necessarily understand how its enforced in any clear way. Ironically, on the post you referred to, I was trying to make a point about how an unemotional response in a hypothetical sense could be a very negative thing toward humans, but was not actually advocating any negativity toward humans or cats in general. In fact, everyone in the discussion, even those who expressed dislike of cats were displaying a very good attitude toward them. So I chalk it up to differences in how I communicate, but it does reduce my interest in posting somewhat. I'm certainly not upset in any real sense about it. I just consider it confusing is all. I always try to be nice, but other people often seem to have very different notions of what is nice than I do.
 
pollinator
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Keep posting, Dangus!  It took me years to learn how to post properly here.

 
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Okay, so I don't find a thing that I said as offensive in any way. I asked a simple question about whether anyone had heard anything further about a "unique opportunity" being posed by someone and that is all that I said.
Now, explain to me how exactly that is offensive?
 
r ranson
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Roddey Cooper wrote:Okay, so I don't find a thing that I said as offensive in any way. I asked a simple question about whether anyone had heard anything further about a "unique opportunity" being posed by someone and that is all that I said.


Calling something a 'supposed "unique opportunity"' does not meet the be nice requirements of this site. 

Please have a read of the publishing standards and the be nice link in my signature if you are having trouble understanding what we look for in a post.
 
master steward
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That conversation went sideways.  I removed some stuff.

I think the important thing is that we insist that all conversation happens a certain way.  Commanding that we change our ways is not going to work out. 

Some people make suggestions for change.  That's cool.  Most people seem to be able to post within our comfort zone.   Others are asked to find a different community to be part of.    And that is how things ended up here.
 
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I have had two posts put on probation recently. I'm pretty sure I understand why in each case, but I'm uncomfortable about it.

In one situation I responded to a previous post. The first poster made a factually incorrect statement about the biology of an organism which I know a lot about. An equivalent incorrect statement in another field would have been "Chickens don't lay eggs, they give birth to live young." I understand the general intention of leaving room for other people's opinions but leaving such factual errors standing makes me feel quite uncomfortable. In this way misleading "fake-news" grows and spreads. In the context in question this is significant, because understanding impacts how people respond to the pest in question. I changed that post but it has not been reinstated after a month, so the thread has a serious factual inaccuracy standing with no response or correction.

In the second, a person above me in the thread quoted my text. I responded quoting theirs. It got slapped down for being "not nice" because I was responding to a person and I was asked to remove the quote. I get it. I hope that the post gets reinstated after making changes.
 
Burra Maluca
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Michael Cox wrote:

In the second, a person above me in the thread quoted my text. I responded quoting theirs. It got slapped down for being "not nice" because I was responding to a person and I was asked to remove the quote. I get it. I hope that the post gets reinstated after making changes.


Don't have time to double check right now, but I think the reason you were asked to remove the quote was because the post you were quoting was removed so we wanted the quote removing too.  Thread clean-ups get complicated pretty quickly...
 
Michael Cox
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Ah, that would certainly make sense. Thank you.

In general I think the principals of moderation here are great - we emulate them in the group that I manage - but it is hard to leave erroneous statements alone, particularly when there are potentially harmful consequences.
 
paul wheaton
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It sounds like a job for ....   the "report to moderator" button!

 
Michael Cox
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paul wheaton wrote:It sounds like a job for ....   the "report to moderator" button!



Interesting. It would genuinely have never occurred to me to get the moderators involved in that kind of thing, but I guess it makes sense.
 
Joseph Lofthouse
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I find that it's easiest if I don't quote other people...

The most recent moderation clusterfuck happened because someone said something inflammatory. Then other people quoted the inflammatory comment in their responses. So instead of one copy of the inflammatory comment, there were a number of copies. If the original comment is not nice, then quoting it is also not nice.
 
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