What is PEP and PEX?

I don't know whether this was deliberate or simply an ironic coincidence but PEP was a line of Kellog's cereal from like the 1930's whose marketing approach was, guess what, badges!

There are plenty of ebay listings for these things, which makes me wonder how bad the ancient maketoids would freak if they only knew people 75 years later would still be trading them, only via computer!
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=pep+cereal+badge


Anyway, back to topic, what else can I say, but, "Collect 'em all, kids!" :)

Sure enough, here's a Vintage 1946 PEP Cereal Chester Gump Pin.  Now I guess we'll need to make some physical badges.  Thanks K!

Mike Jay wrote: welcome to PEP/PEX!  Setting up your own PEX would be awesome and contribute greatly to permaculture taking over the world.

Since PEP is Permaculture Experience according to Paul, you could just call yours PEC if you want.

lol it seeems that mine is already done ! PEX !!!

One of the needs brought up by Paul is very valid: I would love to share my land and I have no children!

Until now, I kick off people each time quicker, like in a week, at the 1st thing they do that does not match my 1st security rule:
- Initiatives must be preceded by telling them and checking if they are appropriate, because of all the newcomer does not know about the place.
If a person does not follow what they have been told, thinking they know best, they are just ...dangerous.

Apart from knowledge, there are also some general behaviour rules that have nothing to do with the persons but the PLACE:
there is always one person who knows it best, even iff the person knows the job to do less.
Until the new person knows it GLOBALLY, it is impossible to have full initiatives, however many experiences you have in another place!

Some training about how to get used to a new place would be wonderful...

I'm reading about pep and pex and badges. As a newcomer to this site, how can I find badges? and what ever pep and pex really are? I'm confused. Colleen

Colleen Greig wrote:I'm reading about pep and pex and badges. As a newcomer to this site, how can I find badges? and what ever pep and pex really are? I'm confused. Colleen

Hi Colleen, welcome to permies!

This post explains what PEP and PEX are:

https://permies.com/p/794902

And this post lists all of the different aspects:

https://permies.com/wiki/96022/aspects-PEP

In response to the Hummingbird Plants Badge Bit:

Mike Jay wrote: Is posting videos going to make this too hard to document? For some people it's easy but for others it could be a barrier. People like me for instance...

I think that posting videos would not be too big of a hurdle. I think that it might take a little practice posting a few other videos, but like my GIS professor has mentioned in class with some of his students that have more difficulty with using the software and technology in class, "All the computers and all the software are just tools." The analogy the professor went on to make was that when some people say "I'm not a computer person" it is like saying "I'm not a hammer person," And I think everyone is capable of learning how to use electronics and various programs, too. I think they're tools, like my professor does. I don't think anyone is born knowing how to use a hammer or bowsaw, and I think the same is true of electronics. I do not think youth are gifted for understanding electronics; I think it is exposure and useage. I think a little more time spent learning to use electronics and a little more regular exposure will make posting a video less of a barrier.

I'll be interested in seeing other comments on this.  I was imagining it as a technical challenge for me (which I should be able to overcome) but it could also be a hardware challenge for others.

The reason I made the Hummingbirds Plant Badge Bit have the requirements it does is because I had noticed both the three season nectar harvest and the humming bird plants have similar requirements in the Animal Care Badge page. Since three season nectar harvest page has been edited and blessed by Paul, I thought a reuse and modification of the three season requirements would be suitable for the hummingbird bird page.

Three Season on Animal Care wrote:  
- plant a three season nectar harvest for pollinators  
      - at least a dozen species
      - at least 200 seeds  

Three Season Badge Bit Page wrote:
To show you've completed this Badge Bit, you must:
- post a list of the 12 species of flowering plants you are planting and mention when they bloom
- post a picture that obviously has 200 or more seeds
- post a short video (less that two minutes - sped up) showing these 200 seeds being planted

Hummingbird on Animal Care wrote:    
- plant seeds for humming birds
      - at least 12 species
      - at least 200 seeds

Hummingbird Plants Badge Bit Page wrote:
To show you've completed this Badge Bit, you must:
- post a list of the 12 species of plants you are planting for hummingbirds and mention when they bloom
- post a picture that obviously has 200 or more seeds
- post a short video (less that two minutes - sped up) showing these 200 seeds being planted

It is 2019.   Making a quick video is pretty easy.  And getting even easier with each passing year.  

For PEP to work, we need proof.   In this case, we need proof that the seeds were planted.   At the same time, we want the evaluator to be able to evaluate quickly.  So, if not a quick video, then what?

Fair enough.  I was thinking that if you listed the plants and their bloom time and took a photo of the seeds, you could be trusted to have planted them.  

Mike Jay wrote:Fair enough.  I was thinking that if you listed the plants and their bloom time and took a photo of the seeds, you could be trusted to have planted them.  

I think there is a lot of trust going around already.   But we need enough proof to increase the odds of "they probably did it".  

I'm not sure if this question has been asked yet.  What about a situation where you've done a BB in the past, maybe multiple times.  Can you just take an "after" picture of the completed item and describe how you did the job to get credit?  

For instance, I've installed about 8 faucets in my lifetime.  I don't know when the next one will need to be replaced, maybe not for another decade.  I could take pics of the last four I did (in my current house and church).

I've been wondering that, too, as I've got 400+ feet of clothes line, and don't think I really need to add more clotheslines...

I'm also wondering if there's certain BBs one can have assistance on, and other's one can't. When I was doing the roundwood woodworking badges, I was pretty sure I needed to do them all by myself. He mentioned with the hugel siege ladder, that one could have assistance in putting in the logs, but not the carving. And I saw Paul stating that one could have a workparty to complete the giant hugel and it would count. So which BBs can we have assistance with, and which ones not, and what percentage of the work needs to be done by us? I mean, when I sawed the wood for my stool, my kids came and "helped," but I figured that didn't count against me. But, if I'd had my husband do 50% of the sawing, that would probably not be okay, right? And, if multiple people work on a hugel together, do they all get credit for their BB, or just the person who organized the work party?

Mike Jay wrote:I'm not sure if this question has been asked yet.  What about a situation where you've done a BB in the past, maybe multiple times.  Can you just take an "after" picture of the completed item and describe how you did the job to get credit?  

For instance, I've installed about 8 faucets in my lifetime.  I don't know when the next one will need to be replaced, maybe not for another decade.  I could take pics of the last four I did (in my current house and church).

I think that if you get the opportunity to install yet another faucet, you will be able to to do it four times faster than somebody that has never done it before.   This reminds me of Joel Salatin saying "make your own unfair advantages."  

Next, consider for a moment that somebody is contemplating this BB and they see there is an option to simply take a picture of 4 faucets, type out "I did that" and earn the BB.  But all they did was take four pictures.   How do you feel about the value of the BB then?

Maybe each BB needs to talk about what is okay and not okay.   And then there is the LIC stuff.  ??

Ok, figured I should ask because thousands of others may be thinking the same thing.  What's the LIC stuff?

Mike Jay wrote:Ok, figured I should ask because thousands of others may be thinking the same thing.  What's the LIC stuff?

https://permies.com/t/lic

A lot of the things I have read as PEP have that issue, we just moved house and changed two taps, we did the same in the last house, I don't expect to change them again. I could however go and uninstall them and then take pictures I assume that would count, I also assume that outdoor taps that are just screw in/out do not count.

As to videos that is something I cannot do. Because I have NOTHING to take a video with, I'm sure I could upload one but not having a device that will take it and not being about (or able) to spend money on something useless (to me) makes video impossible.

This is why these items are on a list of items - for this particular thing, you do one thing on the list, not all of them.   Further, there is a chance that you will know of someone that could use a bit of help in the faucet department - and that would be your chance.  

Nearly all phones are capable of video these days.  You can even pick up a phone from amazon for $20 that can do video.

I suppose we could offer a class here for $3000 for two weeks and as part of the arrangement, you can get a device that can take video.

This is a fascinating idea / topic and it’s got me all fired up. I run an “Urban Homesteading School “ in my small West coast Canadian town, and while I get lots of folks coming to workshops and learning things, many of them never do anything with the information. Some do, and it’s satisfying to hear about that. This kind of “merit badge” program might be a way to get people actually doing things outside of classes.
Oh boy, another project 😀

Would refilling a berkey water filter count for putting collected water through a berkey filter? I would like to lean towards yes.

(I am intentionally double posting this to get attention to this question. This post may be deleted)

I like the idea but I notice the badges are heavily based on physical labor. I’m wondering if there is any educational path for the disabled to learn, such as someone missing limbs or confined to a wheelchair?

M Kreiger wrote:I like the idea but I notice the badges are heavily based on physical labor. I’m wondering if there is any educational path for the disabled to learn, such as someone missing limbs or confined to a wheelchair?

This is a very good question.

I'm guessing here:

At this time, the goal is to get the PEP certification up and running. When there is enough momentum, we can fine-tune the system to accommodate different regions and situations.

I also think the goal of the PEP certification is being able to show that you have the skills to homestead.  I could imagine the BB goal would be the same, but there might be some room to accommodate different ways of achieving those badges.  

Dave Burton wrote:Would refilling a berkey water filter count for putting collected water through a berkey filter? I would like to lean towards yes.

(I am intentionally double posting this to get attention to this question. This post may be deleted)

Yes.  Although I think it is important that the water going in has some story - and preferably a picture.  

I think I would like to see photographic evidence of the berkey doing it's magic, in addition to simply being used.

Great idea Paul!
Do you have a list of properties that are available to be "gifted" to people who complete your program?

How can I get my urban farm (Meadows Tilth Urban Farm) to be qualified as PEP/PEX certifier?

Thanking you so very much in advance for your replies.

William Milmoe wrote:Do you have a list of properties that are available to be "gifted" to people who complete your program?

Not yet.  

How can I get my urban farm (Meadows Tilth Urban Farm) to be qualified as PEP/PEX certifier?

I think the first step is to rack up some badges.

Paul you are such a great self promoter and an excellent programmer/web designer.

I have been doing permaculture for 18+ years. I volunteered and worked at Bev's Place the permie pioneer in Clark County starting back in 2000.  I studied and volunteered at Tabor Tilth Farm in Portland
with Connie Van Dyke, I watched and observed what is now Columbia Ecovillage for years before it was formed, and have be a member of Portland Permaculture Guild for almost 2 decades.

I have shepherded fruit trees for 19 years now at my farm, fig, apple, Asian pear, cherry, pluot.  Growing kiwi and grape vines, comfrey (2 kinds), lots of vegetables, herbs and spreading starts of these plants to others for years.  I have supported you in the past with some of your kick starter campaigns.  Been to numerous Northwest Permaculture convergences and Village Building Convergences. But only experience at you place counts? Good luck to you!

Please get some (one or two) of these thousands of properties you say are looking of an heir and then you will have done humanity a big service. And get some other sites to be certified and then and only then I can refer people to your real program.

William Milmoe wrote:But only experience at you place counts? Good luck to you!

I can say I have never been to Paul's property, but I've managed to get a bunch of badge bits and badges. You don't have to go to his place to be certified. In fact, if you've got pictures of your projects, you can be certified for them if they meet the requirements (I did that with my "Make a Map" as well as my Oddball badge).

I think Paul just wants someone to show that they understand the program by doing some of the bits, before he refers other people over there to be certified.

I think if you are going to certify other people for having completed BBs, you have to have at least completed that BB yourself.  

Right now only the permies.com staff can certify BBs.   But we are talking about having non staff be able to certify if they have completed the full badge that that BB is part of.  

As for certifying a property that certifies:  I don't think that's needed.   Any property will work.   Some of the BBs don't even need a property.

I think it would be cool if people hold gathers of "let's all get together and try to do BBs" - that doesn't even need somebody there that has ever completed one.  

There's currently a list of people who have offered up their properties for other people to come and complete badge bits and get badges: https://permies.com/wiki/97759/Locations-PEP-PEX.

Basically, you're letting people come to your place to build hugels or make herbal remedies or round wood benches, build rocket mass heaters, maintain your tools, or whatever badges you allow people to do there. They then submit their pictures here on permies and get certified here. I'm pretty sure there's no plans for badges to be certified in any way other than here on permies.

I see this as hiring criteria too.  That and good way to see if someone will be a useful member of a community or a drain of resources and moral.  

I've given up hiring farm help because they claim to know how to do stuff, but when they get here, they haven't a clue.  It takes me more work and time to teach them the most basic elements - like how to dig a hole or how to harvest beans, or how not to get killed by a sheep - than it takes to do the task myself.  I'm sick of paying people money to learn from me.  That's the wrong way around.  So I don't hire help because things don't get done!

Now... if there was someone with a sand badge in animal care, a wood badge in gardening, and a straw badge in homesteading, I would know they have the skills to work on my farm and I would know that they would only require a simple overview of how our farm works rather than 2 hours lessons on how to dig one fence post hole and then demand their cuppa tea.  

Some constructive criticism.The lack of being able to use past projects, makes this really irrelevant to me and probably many others. The video requirement also is lame! I shoot exclusively photos. Most find my voice annoying. Is there some reason why only video works? Managing a video camera while soloing a project sucks!

Shawn Harper wrote:The lack of being able to use past projects,

You can use past projects so long as you have the images to meet the requirements.

I shoot exclusively photos.

So do I.  But I know a lot of people who have no idea how to make their phones take stills.

I only saw one badge that had video requirements.  Are there a lot of them?  The ones I saw had video OR photos or said: "show XYZ" which could be either video or photos.

....

On the whole, it sounds like you want something different than what Paul's created.  Perhaps you could make PES - Permaculture Experience according to SHAWN.

Think about it from a certifier's viewpoint. If you're looking at a picture of something that has already been done, without any pictures of it being done, how do you tell that person did it? For all the certifier can tell, their spouse or friend or hired person (or a previous owner of the land), could have done it. We want to make as sure as we can that the person who's got a badge, actually has those skills.

Say someone tries to hire someone who has a roundwood working badge, or an animal care badge. But, they "earned" it just by just showing pictures of things already done. They never actually did any of the work. So, they come to work and actually know nothing and end up building a bad shelter and feeding your animals the wrong things and not keeping their house sanitary. That'd be horrible!

Now, of course, the lower level of skills aren't usually what you'd hire someone for. They're basic skills that show that someone can learn stuff. Say you might want to hire someone with an Wood badge in rocket stoves to make you one. Or maybe a Iron badge in natural building to make you a wofati. And, we went and certified a person that said, "hey, I made this wofati and it's rocket mass heater!" But, they never showed progress pictures, and it turns out, their X-wife did all the work, and they know nothing.

This is something every certifying agency has to deal with. Right now, my husband has a coworker that is a phlebotomist (the people who draw your blood), but it's apparent the person knows NOTHING about phlebotomy. Their wife probably took all the tests for them. When asked to take a test at work, the person stormed out, refusing to do so.

We're trying really hard to make sure that:
(1) The documenting requirements aren't TOO complicated
(2) The people who are getting certified have a high chance of actually having done the stuff and know what they say they know
(3) It's easy for someone who's looking at hiring or giving their land to a badge earner to look at their pictures and judge for themselves the quality of the persons work
(4) To have an online resource full of pictures of people doing useful things, so others can learn from what they did.


I don't like videos, either. But, sometimes, a video seems like the only way to prove that someone has done it. And, it helps other people online learn and find out about permies. We're building a vast collection of knowledge that is FREE and available to everyone.  None of us are getting paid to certify. And when someone tries to get something certified that doesn't have documenting proof, that makes it really hard on the certifiers. We don't want to accidentally certify someone who never did a lick of work and has not one ounce of knowledge about a subject!

Nicole Alderman wrote:Think about it from a certifiers viewpoint. If you're looking at a picture of something that has already been done, without any pictures of it being done, how do you tell that person did it? For all the certifier can tell, their spouse or friend or hired person (or a previous owner of the land), could have done it. We want to make as sure as we can that the person who's got a badge, actually has those skills.

I've had to re-do a lot of things that I've done dozens of times because I didn't have a picture of the materials or one of the vital stages.

But I've already done it dozens of times, so it's pretty simple to do it four dozen and one times.  

r ranson wrote: You can use past projects so long as you have the images to meet the requirements.

Is there a good list of what those are? I skimmed through the topics and couldn't find what would and would not count as good enough.

r ranson wrote:So do I.  But I know a lot of people who have no idea how to make their phones take stills.

I only saw one badge that had video requirements.  Are there a lot of them?  The ones I saw had video OR photos or said: "show XYZ" which could be either video or photos.  

After reading more than this topic it looks like photos will work(?) I guess this part could be changed to a request for clearer requirements.

r ranson wrote: On the whole, it sounds like you want something different than what Paul's created.  Perhaps you could make PES - Permaculture Experience according to SHAWN.

I've seen a similar response to several others who posted suggestions. I guess I don't see what about my comment caused this canned response? I don't see a reason why in my reason I would need to deviate from pauls. However if this is a permies.com thing and not just a paul thing (hence the badges) I think it should be more inclusive. Things like this are great for motivating people to get out and create content. However it also runs the risk of alienating part of the user base if they feel left out in the cold. Just food for thought.

Exactly! I've made lots of felted potholders. There was no learning curve for me, so I was able to do it while walking around and watching my kids. It took me a little over an hour. Meanwhile, making a compound mallet is something I'd never done and didn't have the skills for, and it took me a good 5-6 hours.

I think it's really important to maintain standards otherwise the badge means nothing.

So it needs to be easy enough people can do it at home, but strict enough that the qualification has value to people hiring.