What is PEP and PEX?

Shawn Harper wrote:

r ranson wrote: You can use past projects so long as you have the images to meet the requirements.

Is there a good list of what those are? I skimmed through the topics and couldn't find what would and would not count as good enough.

I don't know of any that don't allow past projects so long as you have all the required documentation.

Nicole Alderman wrote:Think about it from a certifier's viewpoint. If you're looking at a picture of something that has already been done, without any pictures of it being done, how do you tell that person did it? For all the certifier can tell, their spouse or friend or hired person (or a previous owner of the land), could have done it. We want to make as sure as we can that the person who's got a badge, actually has those skills.

Say someone tries to hire someone who has a roundwood working badge, or an animal care badge. But, they "earned" it just by just showing pictures of things already done. They never actually did any of the work. So, they come to work and actually know nothing and end up building a bad shelter and feeding your animals the wrong things and not keeping their house sanitary. That'd be horrible!

Now, of course, the lower level of skills aren't usually what you'd hire someone for. They're basic skills that show that someone can learn stuff. Say you might want to hire someone with an Wood badge in rocket stoves to make you one. Or maybe a Iron badge in natural building to make you a wofati. And, we went and certified a person that said, "hey, I made this wofati and it's rocket mass heater!" But, they never showed progress pictures, and it turns out, their X-wife did all the work, and they know nothing.

This is something every certifying agency has to deal with. Right now, my husband has a coworker that is a phlebotomist (the people who draw your blood), but it's apparent the person knows NOTHING about phlebotomy. Their wife probably took all the tests for them. When asked to take a test at work, the person stormed out, refusing to do so.

We're trying really hard to make sure that:
(1) The documenting requirements aren't TOO complicated
(2) The people who are getting certified have a high chance of actually having done the stuff and know what they say they know
(3) It's easy for someone who's looking at hiring or giving their land to a badge earner to look at their pictures and judge for themselves the quality of the persons work
(4) To have an online resource full of pictures of people doing useful things, so others can learn from what they did.


I don't like videos, either. But, sometimes, a video seems like the only way to prove that someone has done it. And, it helps other people online learn and find out about permies. We're building a vast collection of knowledge that is FREE and available to everyone.  None of us are getting paid to certify. And when someone tries to get something certified that doesn't have documenting proof, that makes it really hard on the certifiers. We don't want to accidentally certify someone who never did a lick of work and has not one ounce of knowledge about a subject!

This is easily the best explanation I've seen on this. I can easily understand your reasons. However I think that "We're trying really hard to make sure that: (1) The documenting requirements aren't TOO complicated" Needs some work. Maybe a thread with exact documentation expectations instead of several sometimes contradictory posts?
The other point I would make is not everyone has so much land that simply doing a project again will work.

r ranson wrote:

Shawn Harper wrote:

r ranson wrote: You can use past projects so long as you have the images to meet the requirements.

Is there a good list of what those are? I skimmed through the topics and couldn't find what would and would not count as good enough.

I don't know of any that don't allow past projects so long as you have all the required documentation.

So, to earn a badge, one has to do a bunch of "Badge Bits."

For example, I have the Community Badge. I've done the required Badge Bits (also known as "BB"s) listed HERE.

One of those Badge Bits was to make a make a map of my property. Thankfully, I'd already made a map for my son's birthday a few years back. And, since I'd made a thread about it here on permies, I'd had the required pictures of me making the thing (usually the requirements for badge bits are: A before picture, a progress picture, and a completed picture. In this case, I'd needed pictures of the things shown on the map, so I went and took those). And I got certified for it. You can see that HERE

Here's a list of all the PEP badges: https://permies.com/wiki/96022/aspects-PEP.

Each has four badges for four different level of skills. Click on the name to go to that badge's page. Then you can click on the different badge bits and see if you've got the pictures for those things!

Shawn Harper wrote:

r ranson wrote: On the whole, it sounds like you want something different than what Paul's created.  Perhaps you could make PES - Permaculture Experience according to SHAWN.

I've seen a similar response to several others who posted suggestions. I guess I don't see what about my comment caused this canned response? I don't see a reason why in my reason I would need to deviate from pauls. However if this is a permies.com thing and not just a paul thing (hence the badges) I think it should be more inclusive. Things like this are great for motivating people to get out and create content. However it also runs the risk of alienating part of the user base if they feel left out in the cold. Just food for thought.

There's a very fine line between giving suggestions and telling others what changes need to be made.  It's very much in the way it's phrased.  Insulting something that someone else created like calling it lame, is a great way to get someone's back up.  

Paul designed the PEP system and has probably put in about 2,000 hours into getting this up and running.  I know of at least 20 people who have put in 100-500 hours each into getting this setup.  There's a lot of long conversations about each badge and the best way to word it.  

Making suggestions about improvements is great.  
Talking about all the things we are doing wrong... especially without doing the homework first... is borderline, not nice.  

Shawn Harper wrote:
. However if this is a permies.com thing and not just a paul thing (hence the badges) I think it should be more inclusive. Things like this are great for motivating people to get out and create content. However it also runs the risk of alienating part of the user base if they feel left out in the cold. Just food for thought.

While permies is run by volunteers (except for Paul, of course!), it is Paul's site. He pays the bills. He doesn't pull a profit from this site. We moderators certainly don't make any money! So, a permies thing and a Paul's thing are much the same. Sure, a lot of people have persuaded Paul to change or tweek some of the requirements for PEP. Those people are usually those that have spent hours completing badge bits or helping make the badge bit pages, and have shown they are willing to help out.

We want it to be for everyone. In the end, Paul calls the shots. He's a self-styled "benevolent dictator." And, after having spent a lot of hours on this stuff, his reasoning make a lot of sense!

Shawn Harper wrote:
The other point I would make is not everyone has so much land that simply doing a project again will work.

True! I can see this might be a great way to make a bit of money by selling one's skills. You might not have room for another 7 foot hugel, but maybe a friend does, or someone on Craiglist? You could make it for them for money/trade/just to be nice and get certified for it.

Or, one could go to a certifying event like the one coming up at Paul's place, and make a hugel there with his tools!

Nicole Alderman wrote: In the end, Paul calls the shots. He's a self-styled "benevolent dictator."

EVIL dictator!

(If you say "benevolent" then a thousand nitwits pour out of the woodwork demanding that I be their personal bitch for life or they will personally revoke the "benevolent" part.  But if you embrace "evil dictator" those nitwits leave you alone.)

And, after having spent a lot of hours on this stuff, his reasoning make a lot of sense!

Thanks!

We don't even yet have all of this stuff at version "0.6 alpha."  

First, we get it up to version 0.9 - all designed for my place.    And then we add about 2% more so it can work on a few thousand other properties too.   And after three more years of polishing, it might be ready to be called "version 1.0"

This is gonna take a while.  But we have enough so that people can start getting the simplest BBs.  

Shawn Harper wrote:

r ranson wrote: You can use past projects so long as you have the images to meet the requirements.

Is there a good list of what those are? I skimmed through the topics and couldn't find what would and would not count as good enough.

If you look at any of the BB posts it has the lists of requirements.  IE under the Gardening badge there is a Build a Hugelkultur BB.  That BB post is what you have to follow to get certified for that BB.  Do all the BBs for a badge, you get certified for the badge.  For that particular BB (a rather involved one) near the end of the first post it says the requirements.  For that one they are:

To document your completion of the BB, provide the following:
 - Two pics of the site before the work is started with the intended location marked out.
       o probably marked with wood laid on the ground that will soon be buried!
 - Three pics of three different stages of construction - showing the contents of the hugelkultur
 - Pics of all the stuff about to be planted
 - A paragraph or two of what wood was used and where it came from, what was planted, what mulches were applied and anything else interesting
 - Two pics of the site after the work is complete from the same two locations as the beginning pictures.
       o include some people or something in the pics so we can gauge that the size is probably correct

So if you've built a hugel before and happen to have those pictures, awesome.  You're ready to post.  I think I've had two BBs where I happened to have the photos needed to get certified.

Sorry if I've missed a FAQ on all of this, I'm just starting to familiarize myself with it.
How is the BB's completed tracked? Is it only through the BB threads or is there a PEP dashboard that one could use as a checklist/resume?

Hi Alley, I just track mine with a spreadsheet on the side.  Lee has this cool app that is on sale right now that is probably 70x fancier than a spreadsheet or scribbled-on napkin.  See here: https://permies.com/t/119155/PEP-Badge-Tracker-easier-track

Or if I misinterpreted your question, Permies.com isn't tracking your BB completions, you need to.  Once you have a badge and get that certified, you get a badge icon under your posts.

I don't have any sort of tracker--I just kind of look at the badge I'm working on, and see which ones I want to do and have done. It's getting a bit overwhelming, though, so I might end up making a thread here on permies showing which ones I've done and haven't done. A thread like that would also double as a resume, of a sort.

To get the badge, you post to the badge page with links to the post/thread of each badge bit you've completed. You can see examples of Mike and mine on the Animal Badge page: https://permies.com/wiki/107858/PEP-Badge-Animal-Care. A staff person then double-checks that you did, indeed, get certified for all of them, and they grant the badge!

Where do I submit and redeem the points achieved during the October PEP challenge?

dawn west wrote:Where do I submit and redeem the points achieved during the October PEP challenge?

Are they the points for completing/making Badge Bits to get free goodies from Paul? If so, check out this thread: https://permies.com/t/121940/bonus-goodies-BB-tested. I hope that helps!

as a way to possibly unify the global permaculture revolution movement as a whole

just out of curiosity, are there any other initiatives like PEP/PEX out there from other revolutionary minded people?

a kind of in-depth certification system for all permaculture, homesteading activities?

I just realized another way to look at PEX is that an individual PEX is a "localization" of PEP.

Like when someone translates a book from one language to another.  My understanding is that often in that scenario; the folks best suited to do the work are the locals; they know the local conditions best and how things do or don't apply to their locale, to create an effective "localization."

From this, I realized other PEX's could be mapped to biomes instead of to the author's name; PESubTropics or PEOz or PEScan, in the way that PEApartment already is.

That's how I originally thought of PEX's.  One for the high desert, one for the low desert, one for the frigid plains states, etc.  Then I thought about how MY idea of a PEFUMT (Permaculture Experience in the Frigid Upper Midwest with Trees) would look different from someone else's PEFUMT who lives in Michigan.  Same bioregion but different approaches to permaculture.  I'm not sure I'd be willing to say "I know everything about permaculture in a FUMT area so I'll write the definitive PEX for it".  

That's when I realized Paul was brilliant to say Permaculture Experience according to Paul.  Then in little letters after it he can say he lives in Montana.  I'm much more likely to say "I'll create a Permaculture Experience according to Mike and I live in this climate so take it or leave it and make your own".

But, that's just thoughts evolved as I considered this.  I could certainly be wrong.

Ash Jackson wrote:I just realized another way to look at PEX is that an individual PEX is a "localization" of PEP.

Like when someone translates a book from one language to another.  My understanding is that often in that scenario; the folks best suited to do the work are the locals; they know the local conditions best and how things do or don't apply to their locale, to create an effective "localization."

From this, I realized other PEX's could be mapped to biomes instead of to the author's name; PESubTropics or PEOz or PEScan, in the way that PEApartment already is.

while i think paul's idea is great like you say, mike, i see no reason why the idea can't be expanded to include ash's idea here as well — i think it's brilliant!

a mapping of locals worldwide could be helpful and could initiate and accelerate more largescale adoption of permaculture lifestyles

one of the main issues people have right now is not knowing about local human resources to learn and collaborate with

I do like the idea of having a PEX for different bioregions.  I can just imagine there could be some squabbling over it among the various permaculturalists living in that area.  But let's give it a shot.  We can always have PEFUMT and a PEM and see which takes off.  They'd probably be 80+% the same.

A lot of the changes to PEP to a PEX could be just something as simple as making it more generic, so rather than giving a list of acceptable plants to forage, say X number of leaf, fruit, nut species. The same with the instructions for planting black locust etc, just say plant x trees that do xyz. It doesn't need to be so specific and making it less specific would greatly open it up, but it would make it harder to judge.

Skandi Rogers wrote:A lot of the changes to PEP to a PEX could be just something as simple as making it more generic, so rather than giving a list of acceptable plants to forage, say X number of leaf, fruit, nut species. The same with the instructions for planting black locust etc, just say plant x trees that do xyz. It doesn't need to be so specific and making it less specific would greatly open it up, but it would make it harder to judge.

What if we just required people to actually explain WHY that tree fits the designation? If they want to use one that's different, they have to make a little write-up with sources, explaining why honey locust does the same thing as black locust. Posting their...dissertation? (I can't think of the right work. "Defense" and "Argument" seem too cranky. "Reasons" seems a bit too vague)... for their substitution would be part of the BB.

So, instead of the Black Locust seed badge bit looking like this:

To complete this BB, the minimum requirements are to plant black locust trees:
    o 40 with scarification (row 1)
    o 40 with another type of scarification (row 2)
    o 40 without scarification (row 3)
    o all seeds are planted in a row, each seed is planted two feet apart, quick video over each row showing germination

To show you've completed this Badge Bit, you must:
    o A Picture(s) of 40 scarified black locust seeds, 40 scarified black locust seeds with a different technique, and 40 black losuct seeds without scarification (all in one photo OR three separate photos)
    o Action picture of planting seeds
    o Pictures OR Video of completed planted rows
    o Quick video over each row showing germinated black locust plants

it could look like:

To complete this BB, the minimum requirements are to plant black locust trees (or 40 trees that have the same attributes for fixing nitrogen, being fast-growing, and raving rot-resistant wood):
    o 40 with scarification (row 1)
    o 40 with another type of scarification (row 2)
    o 40 without scarification (row 3)
    o all seeds are planted in a row, each seed is planted two feet apart, quick video over each row showing germination

To show you've completed this Badge Bit, you must:
    o A Picture(s) of 40 scarified black locust seeds, 40 scarified black locust seeds with a different technique, and 40 black losuct seeds without scarification (all in one photo OR three separate photos)
    o Action picture of planting seeds
    o Pictures OR Video of completed planted rows
    o Quick video over each row showing germinated black locust plants
    o If you chose you plant a different tree than black locust, then you must also post a write-up--with at least 4 sources--showing that your tree has the same necessary attributes as black locust: fast-growing, rot resistant, and fixes nitrogen

Then our PEP program would also be a giant concordance of knowledge. People learn not just how to plant the sees, but what other trees fit that purpose.

In the herbal medicine badge, we did something similar to this. Since we didn't know exactly which recipes would be best, we made the poster explain what recipe they used.

Paul is largely worried about there being so much work necessary to make the badges for all the climates, that the badge bits will not be written up. And, that it would be too hard for volunteers to judge whether or not someone completed that badge bit. But, I think if we lay the work on the person modifying it for their climate, we'll have an easier time judging it. And, our badges and badge bits will turn into a great resource for people trying to apply these things to their own climate. I think it'd be cool to have a resource of plants all around the world that act like black locust. PEP could be that resource.

Hi y'all. I agree with Nicole's last post above about putting the responsibility of the choices made for different climates upon the shoulders of the badge earner. They can then search through the approved BBs as they accumulate to find examples to spark their imaginations on how to complete their own.

With a relatively basic set of goals to meet, most intelligent folks can be inspired to find their own solutions,  and most permie sorts already have that going on. I believe that part of the whole permie mentality is geared towards solving the problems we come up against in our efforts to bring the planet back into balance in our little spheres of influence,  gathering on this site to share those thoughts and accomplishments in picture and word for all to share and benefit from. Am I wrong?

All this from a newbie who is just chiming in as common shoe. 🤔 🙄 😐

also agree with nicole — i don't think the bioregional specifics need to be formalized (at least at first)

it can begin organically and perhaps over time someone can start sorting all the unique bioregional information

and it doesn't need to be rigid (to prevent arguments) — it can be more like expanding from
the base foundation as a supplement to getting more specific where the base foundation will always be there to fall back on

I think that's an excellent idea Nicole, also people can ask on the forums for ideas about which plants would fit. Certainly put the burden of proof on the badgee not the certifier.

Interesting stuff this, I haven't been active on the forum herr since I find it a bit awkward to use comoared to other forums I frewuent but am willing to give it another try as Im starting to get really fed up with facebook groups where the endless influx of people new to topics keep telling the actual experts thst they are doing it wrong. This PEP thing seems like the perfect tjing to prevent that from happening here

I spent some time reviewing the more recent PEP projects.  I am getting seriously impressed.  The ones on plumbing really grabbed my attention.  It seems like a great deal of my homestead life has been either doing plumbing projects or figuring out ways to avoid them. These are valuable skills being taught.

Ash Jackson wrote:I just realized another way to look at PEX is that an individual PEX is a "localization" of PEP.

Like when someone translates a book from one language to another.  My understanding is that often in that scenario; the folks best suited to do the work are the locals; they know the local conditions best and how things do or don't apply to their locale, to create an effective "localization."

From this, I realized other PEX's could be mapped to biomes instead of to the author's name; PESubTropics or PEOz or PEScan, in the way that PEApartment already is.

I was going through some of the old podcasts, and I learned this is the opposite of what Paul wants a PEX to be.

From my understanding, he wants the "X" in PEX to be someone's name, and not a climate zone, so that there is not a "the way" created for a particular climate. Just... Geoff's way, or Toby's way, or Sepp's way.

The trouble with "PED" for deserts is that there are many schools of thought for deserts.  It can become ugly at 80 different people insist that their approach is the one true way.  So I think it is important that the "X" is replaced with a person.  

And now for the crazy exception:  PEA.  We are forming this one "by committee" but we are trying to make it so it can be inclusive of lots of different ideas.   But we are locking out a nearby park, or nearby garden, etc. We are open to the apartment dweller having a grocery store and access to amazon.  Although we are already bumping into issues where amazon does not serve all apartment dwellers everywhere.  

The key is that it is important that "X" is replaced with one person.  Except for PEA.