My Experience Eating Nothing From Plants, aka Zero Carb

I haven't been able to watch the videos yet, but I am very much interested in this topic.  I am not exaggerating when I say I have tried every diet in an attempt to lose weight and improve my health.  I did lose about 125lbs six or seven years ago, but my health remains very poor, and I'm still looking for the dietary fix - as I strongly believe "let thy food be thy medicine.". Living as I do in remote, rural Africa, and being poor---I don't always have a choice about what to eat.  Yesterday it was eat cassavas or go hungry.  (And today, incidentally, I feel awful.). I am however aiming for LCHF and I  finding that the closer I get to NO carbs, the better I feel.  I also reached a point where eating vegetables felt completely repulsive.  Totally unappetising.  That was new, because I've always LIKED vegetables.  I face two problems right now, the first being financial viability.  I don't have my animal production up to the point that I can live off them without buying from outside.  Secondly is my husband and his culture - which view meat-eating as a priveledge and luxory of the rich.  Thus he has accused me of " wasting money ", being selfish and overindulgent and other unpleasant things - without understanding that my motivation is to FEEL better and stop being sick and sad.  Hopefully I'll get a good connection and be able to view your videos - and keep this thread going, I want to follow your progress.

Hi Everyone

I hope I'm not duplicating here, I did try to read all the comments and didn't see a mention of the GAPS diet. GUT and Psychology Syndrome talks about the connection between the gut and the brain. Dr Natasha Campbell McBride has even had success with healing bipolar!  https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/07/31/dr-natasha-campbell-mcbride-on-gaps-nutritional-program.aspx. I know that some of her clients have to be on an exclusively animal diet for a year or more, basically until the body says its ready. For me listening to our body is always the most important thing

Just remembered... I was lucky enough to hear Donna Eden (Energy Medicine) speak when she came over to Spain for a holiday, what an amaaaazing lady! I was sitting with a couple of her students who shared her story. She had been following a very healthy vegetarian diet but had become allergic to everything!  She was told she would not live, but as she had 2 small children this was not an option for her! She found that the only foods her body would tolerate were things that she had not been eating before, namely meat! There are no right or wrong foods.

I wanted to add a comment about gout.  I have it, although rarely these days.  In my case it does NOT appear to be triggered by meat eating, but rather by uncontrolled fluctuations in blood sugar.

Hi everyone!  Wow, what a great response.  Thanks to all for the thoughtful comments and dialog, it's been great to read all of your thoughts and I appreciate the open minded approach you all share.

Maureen, these videos are also available as podcasts on Itunes and Google Play if that format works better for you.  There are links in the videos, or you can find them here:

http://www.permanenthomestead.com/category/zero-carb-journal/

Episode 4 is up!  In this one I cover what I eat in a day, what I've eaten over the past year of eating only animal sourced foods, and what one might expect during adaptation.  I ramble as I do, talk about salt, coffee, and lots more.  I also cry a little bit because I appreciate your support so much and I'm sorta sensitive! :) Thanks for letting me share and for being so open and kind!

Nicole Alderman wrote:We were getting a bit off topic, and verging close to Cider Press territory, so I split off the relevant posts to this thread: new topic. If I missed any, please tell me!
(This informational message will self destruct in two days)

It led to fruitful talks.... as my point, even in this topic, is that we have to deal with traumatic factors and recover in order to thrive.
If I can point to my last writing in the new topic... https://permies.com/t/74557/Diet-Factors-Influence-Intelligence#619543
I think I can write this part of my post here:

Came back the question: "how about we discuss how diet can effect behavior ?"
I answered:
"The starting point with Matt Walker is that an unsuitable diet is a source of trauma, up to the point to make you bleed, and up to the point to make you depressed....
And when you solve the trauma by avoiding the traumatic factor, for you, you can heal and thrive!"

Groups around the world were thriving on a common diet, with local food. Now we have so much choice, and so many different conditions, that we are not wounded the same, and that we have to carefully choose our diet. I have mentionned the zc diet to some people, and I had such answers as "Pretty much the only diet I've never tried is the high meat one." He now studies if this can suit him or not.... I gave him a link to your videos Matt!

Oh, if you can answer something on the next vlog... do you have an answer to my question, that is about modifying definitively the gut biome. If the diet does not suit a person, can there be a problem of having modified the bacteria content and then be stuck? In the paleo raw forum, somebody stayed near all meat, but had to introduce resistant starch in order to keep a prebiotic source for the colon bacterias. The goal would be to starve the bad bacterias that are not in the colon but in the small intestine, the one that is supposed to be as sterile as possible. Some people kept some fiber in the fermented form only.

Another question: a woman with type 2 diabetis could not stay on zc because meat also provoques a spike of insuline, which can create hypoglycemia when you do not eat any sugar with the proteic food. (she solved it with a little carb intake at the end of the day, and she calculated by trials and use of blood sugar testing) Is it a common problem? Is it solved after a while when the neo-glyco-genesis works better? Is it like entering ketogenesis, that can take some time for the change to happen? I know that a high protein diet is NOT AT ALL a ketogenic diet, as low protein high fat is needed for producing ketones. My question is about time needed to change the body's pathways...

Thanks, hope the questions are fine. more important, be fine! You all permies curious and open-minded people be fine!

Thanks for another interesting video, Matt.  FYI, my professors pronounced vagus "vay-gus," but I'm sure it's pronounced differently in different places.  

My definition of constipation is similar to yours, but it includes the consistency of the stool.  If the stool is hard it has a tendency to clump together and make large "rocks," and that's not good.  The frequency of stool passage isn't really important - it's the ease of stool passage.  A breastfeeding baby can go days between BMs.  This is because most of the milk is absorbed, but also because a baby doesn't move around much, and moving around is a stimulant for your gut moving.  If you eat a couple bites of food and then you have abdominal pain, that's often constipation as well.  (OK, if you eat a couple bites of food and your abdominal pain culminates in diarrhea, that's obviously a different thing, although also a demonstration of the gastrocolic reflex.)

Thanks for the comments you two.  Julia, thank you for the confirmation.

Xisca, my belief is that we change our biome out completely, but there is still a biome.  It just becomes that of a carnivore rather than an omnivore.  Due to this, I would expect adaptation to be a two way street, and certainly it may take a few instances of reintroducing foods to truly identify how they are being handled by the individual.  My feeling is that people who continue to include RS or fiber at all out of concern for this are not doing themselves any favors, and will never know how they truly would feel if truly adapted to ZC.  I also know that some folks go from ZC back to carbs and believe they are compromised in their carb eating ability.  I certainly believe we are all different, and I won't invalidate their experience, but my feeling is if carbs just make you feel awful after a bit of trying, that's probably a reason to not eat them rather than blame the way of eating that makes you feel better.  As I related, there are some long term ZC folks who seem to be able to add in carbs at whim with no serious consequences.  My feeling is that if you experience consequences from carbs, they probably have never been good for you but the impact was muted in the noise of a mixed diet.

As for T2D and blood glucose, it's pretty well confirmed these days that too much protein does not cause blood sugar spikes in most.  There are again some outliers, but my opinion is it is a function of continuing to eat something that is inflammatory to that individual and thus causing the inflammation based hormone reaction to occur.  In most cases where I have come across people who feel that is a concern, the concern usually came before the data.  In my experience, because I did it too, that leads to making choices based on those motivations rather than listening to how we feel.  They often will limit protein and pack in the fat, or eat butter or oils, and I know that eating that way drives me into inflammation.  Again, some do find or believe that high protein=BG spikes, but for the VAST majority of T2D on ZC, of which there are countless, they find they finally have the BG numbers they have chased their whole life, regardless of F/P ratios. I do believe adaptation is an issue, and that's why I say the belief comes first, because people will eat according to this belief and set themselves up to fail.  That's simply my opinion based on observation, but Twitter is full of T2D ZC'ers posting daily BG readings and they are as a group ecstatic about the improvements.  I can think of one person who holds the belief you state and I see this person struggle often.  I think it's us overthinking our bodies natural ability to regulate if given a chance, which I think is what got us into this whole mess in the first place.

Hope that helps, thanks so much for the dialog and comments my friends!

Again, I don't have scientific data, only personal experience - I am a diabetic, and protein has had no impact on my blood sugar readings, unless I am still combining it with carb foods.  I think the point is that you can't know how your body will adapt until you've tried it, and the perpetual fear keeps people from trying.  My reading online indicates that once you stop overloading with carbs, in most cases diabetes is reversed or "cured".  (I am a big fan of the writings of Dr. Jason Fung, but can't post a link with this phone. He is not a zero carb guy, he is an intermittent fasting and lchf guy, but the info is relevant.). I can't speak with authority on anything because my diet bounces with availability.  I'll spend a few days zero carb, a couple weeks lchf, fast a couple days, and then get hungry enough that I go back to carbs from the garden.

A concern I have had is this: I have no gall bladder. Thus I question my body's ability to extract the nutrition it needs from a lchf or zero carb diet.  But rather than say, I can't do it because I have no gall bladder, I'd rather do it and see for myself...and so far, I haven't keeled over from malnutrition, and I still feel my best when I eat the least carb.

Transitioning and experimenting! I am not ZC, as I love and stand and seem to need some greens. I eat some raw leaves, especially bitter attract me and I breakfast with dendelion etc.

I am totally off carbs of the main type, sugars, fruits, starch. Well, still a bit when I have some cacao... or a raw carrot or a beet juice. I also have some macadamia nuts and some other such as pumpkin. Also avocado and olive oil or some olives. Occasional onion and garlic. Coconut oil and turmeric, and floured milk thistle seeds in tea. i also use lemon juice and make a cold tea with the peel. I also have some chicory tea as i seem to like some prebiotic at the mment.

The main visible result is that I eat twice per day and that I need no lunch and never snack. No hunger. I have correct bowel movements and less bloating, but I have burps that i did not have before. But it can also come from issues with the vagus nerve,as I have been working physically on some falls, mainly with carnio-sacral, as I learn it.

Here are my first "cookies", crunchy! and this evening big flat one, with aged goat cheese with an egg on top, and some plant still.... ground pumpkin seeds.

Hey Matt!

I wanted to tell you thank you so much for posting this. I think the current indoctrination of our culture (carbs (veggies) are necessary is sometimes hard to overcome. I've been watching your videos and I'm gonna go cold turkey. Here's why...

I already eat a paleo diet with at least 1 all-meat meal. I used to do paleo, then moved to my home off grid without refrigeration and it was so hard (plus unsupportive husband and three kids) so I did my best but probably ate WAY too many carbs. I spent about 4 years eating out of a cooler with no refrigeration, so a lot of beans, breads, etc. I gained a bunch of weight and started craving ice which I know is a symptom of anemia.

So a few months ago I started working out pretty hard 2-3 times a week and focusing back on Paleo-ish. In hindsight I think it triggered my body to start kind of falling apart because lack of red blood cells + strenuous exercise is kind of a recipe for failure. I found myself needing to nap all the time, constantly exhausted, brain fog, fatigue, etc. Decided to go get bloodwork and in the meantime just really hack my diet and eat at least one meal of JUST fatty meat. Come to find out I am severely low iron which is interesting because really, my diet is NOT low in iron.

So my conclusion is that I probably have some kind of auto immune disorder because I'm not absorbing iron. I've also had some other issues in the past that make me suspect autoimmune (pretty much constant digestive issues, lots of bloating with carbs, but also psoriasis/eczema and a few other things. Doctors are always so unhelpful with this stuff though so I can't say for sure, but knowing myself and my body I will say yes I have an autoimmune issue.

Have been researching AIP and GAPS diet but I'll be honest... I just do NOT like vegetables. I am always craving meat, all the time, and this is not a new thing. Eating veggies because you're supposed to has always been such an annoyance for me. It's almost like... now you've given me "permission" to eat the way I want. I was kinda hesitant to do those elimination diets especially because they are so heavy in SQUASH and I detest squash. The only thing I'll miss is chocolate and fruit, really. But I'll do my 30 days and see what I can reintroduce. The simplicity of it is just so wonderful.

So - thank you. I've subscribed to your channel and joined the World Carnivore Tribe FB group. Here's to health!

Bethany, so great you can listen to yourself! Cravings are not always about addiction, or there are good addictions... We just repeat what feels good, and when it is really good...

I would not conclude so fast about auto-immunity.... about iron, this can come from a copper toxicity, as when 1 is high the other is low. And thi can thus happen with no relationship to your diet. copper IUD or copper water pipe or cookingware can be a cause, or water etc. Cheaper than blood test and more complete and more accurate, you can do the only painless biopsy ever, the hair test, with either arl or tei lab. It really represent your tissues.

What you mention also make me suggest some issue with the vagus nerve that could respond to craniosacral therapy or Gesret method. Actually, the vagus slows heart, make us digest and produce gastric juices etc. I got worse after a surgery because it just happened that my body reacted as if it was a trauma without me knowing it. I also have digestive issues of course. When it is life long, there is in general an issue coming from birth, prebirth, early accident or even an accident to the mother during pregnancy. Apart from me, I have checked out that this is an underlooked frequent issue.

Xisca Nicolas wrote:Bethany, so great you can listen to yourself! Cravings are not always about addiction, or there are good addictions... We just repeat what feels good, and when it is really good...

I would not conclude so fast about auto-immunity.... about iron, this can come from a copper toxicity, as when 1 is high the other is low. And thi can thus happen with no relationship to your diet. copper IUD or copper water pipe or cookingware can be a cause, or water etc. Cheaper than blood test and more complete and more accurate, you can do the only painless biopsy ever, the hair test, with either arl or tei lab. It really represent your tissues.

What you mention also make me suggest some issue with the vagus nerve that could respond to craniosacral therapy or Gesret method. Actually, the vagus slows heart, make us digest and produce gastric juices etc. I got worse after a surgery because it just happened that my body reacted as if it was a trauma without me knowing it. I also have digestive issues of course. When it is life long, there is in general an issue coming from birth, prebirth, early accident or even an accident to the mother during pregnancy. Apart from me, I have checked out that this is an underlooked frequent issue.

Interesting, I’ll have to look into that! The reason I’m so sure that it’s autoimmune is… well, many things. I’ve had iron deficiency issues most of my life, even when I was a kid. I don’t have much exposure to copper at all - no IUD, no copper pans, no copper water pipes (although some of the fittings are) in my house, etc. I also had a blood test already and it showed as very low iron levels so I know I need to get them back up either way, I don't know when I'd have too much copper though! Might be worth having a heavy metals test done though.

The fact that this has been most of a lifelong problem and also the skin conditions have been present at least since I was younger. I first remember having issues with my skin when I was about 20 or so. I am now 38 and in the last few years (like, the last 2 years of my 4 years w/o a refrigerator) it got REALLY bad, like so bad I was embarrassed to leave the house my face was so red, puffy and inflamed.

Changing my diet has helped tremendously even in the few months since I got a refrigerator but it isn’t gone 100%. I also cook using cast iron and supposedly you should be able to get enough iron (according to conventional wisdom) with just a few servings of meat a week so I don’t know why I was so low. I also have a family history of autoimmunity - my brother has some problems, my mom has bigtime issues (Hashimoto’s Disease), and I suspect my sister does too.

My theory is that my 4 years without a refrigerator and very little red meat stripped my body of reserves so much that now I have to play catch up. Which is fine by me - I’m already halfway to meat-only and really the main reason I wasn’t is because I thought it would be unhealthy to get rid of vegetables entirely. I dislike 90% of vegetables so this is kind of a relief :)

My only concession is that I had my gallbladder removed a few years ago - so far I haven’t had digestive issues but I may need to supplement with ox bile for a bit until I can get my liver accustomed to a fatty meat diet. What’s also interesting is that I’ve had digestive issues similar to Matt’s but not quite to the same degree but I understand what it’s like to be “tied to the toilet” so to speak. It would be really nice to not have to worry about that.

I can understand better with all this more precise. I will make the link I see with all meat diet below... There are many different causes to mineral unbalances, and not only copper, though sometimes a vegetarian diet can cause it too. And as you noted, eating with iron is not enough for you. all minerals make some others adapt by going up and down in complex relationships. Diet is a part of the game, but not the only one.

You are right about heavy metal possibility, but blood testing includes chelation and is not benign. Or else you can have them and they will not show up. Hair testing gives more results though some can be so deeply in stock in cells that it does not even appear in hair tissues. For example I have only aluminium showing, though I thought mercury would be present....

Then the nervous system is a big part in autoimmune diseases. What can be transmitted without even being hereditary is the regulation of the nervous system! There can be some disregulation and a not good enough reciprocal effect between the sympathetic and parasympathetic branches. The immune system depends on the right action of the parasympathetic system. Digestion also depends on the rest and digest state. The main parasympathetic nerve is the vagus nerve... It goes through the base of the neck, and not in the spine at all. Actually it passes under the protection of the spine and ribs! Thus the interest of the Gesret method! I actually knew a practitionner who learned it because he got rid of exema as a client, and he was already acupunturist. For exema liver is mention, with the rib at its level, maybe D7 I do not remember. Left side for exema, right side and pancreas for psoriasis, and both alternating for some people. 90% of people with exema put more weight on their right foot, as a compensation.

Gall bladder removed is linked to liver of course. And for general detox, liver needs proteins. When you need more, you need meat.... And when you need more meat than others, it can mean that you do not digest nor assimilate proteins good enough, thus creating a lack of some amino acids more than others. That is why I am going to change hair test and do the hair bulb test, because they also tell our amino acid balance and even our hormonal status!

Now the main cause of having problem to obtain some aminos from the diet is low stomach acid, which can also come from stress, which explains it is all too common now. Low stomach acids means less stimulation for liver and pancreas, and lower bile etc, which are the alkaline juices that will change the pH from acidic in stomach to alkaline further down in the duodenum. When food is not super well digested, it creates some bloating or any other symptom that can lead to reflux or heart burn, though the root problem is lack of acid. The problem is that this is self maintaining in a circle. That is why at the moment I do not feel like going 100% meat, as I need bitter leaves to stimulate this. And I do love them. What I suppressed is the sweet taste, as this does the reverse. Most people doing mineral balancing eat a lot of cooked veggies, as they are supposed to be better digested, but it does not work like this for me...

I do already have results by having suppressed all fruits and starches. I have also suppressed cooked veggies. I salt to taste because my body knows how much Na Cl I need to produce H Cl in my stomach.

This leads to a question for Matt..... When to drink? Meat stays longer in the stomach, and I seem to have problem if I drink even hours after my meal... My new trial is to drink a lot in the morning before any meal.

Thanks so much for the thoughtful comments you two! Bethany, I'm so glad to hear you are giving it a try, here's hoping it's as profoundly positive for you as it has been for me.  Xisca, I don't drink any water starting about 30 minutes before eating and I wait for about an hour afterwards.  

Matt Walker wrote: Xisca, I don't drink any water starting about 30 minutes before eating and I wait for about an hour afterwards.  

I have found out that this is not enough for me...
I have changed strategy and I drank a lot this morning, before any meal. I was amazed how much I could drink and still wanted more after little time! Then I could stay much longer without wanting to drink after eating a big amount of meat.

And if your cookies do not look like mine, then you will know why we want to see yours! hehe!

Thought I’d report in, since today is day 30!

Teeth no longer produce plaque and are whiter
I’ve lost 21lbs and am down inches (which is notable, because I am NOT exercising and previously I was doing a pretty decent strength routine 2-3x/wk and eating mostly paleo and the pounds were not budging)
I sleep like a ROCK and my sleep apnea is gone
My iron levels are fixed
Skin issues (psoriasis/eczema) are clearing up

I love love love the simplicity of this.

I will say I wasn’t able to keep it to beef only, I did have chicken and fish periodically and I did a lot of fasting because for some reason, my body decided that beef was not making it happy. I really lost my appetite and had to force myself to eat. But I was successful with meat and water only (although I did add in some healing herbs and garlic this week because I was sick with a cold).

Today, being day 30, I made some homemade breakfast sausage and gorged myself, it was divine.

The best part of this is how I am literally not craving carbs anymore. And when I do *want* carbs I’m able to recognize that it’s more that I miss the memory of the enjoyment I used to get out of eating certain things. The only close thing I got to cheating was earlier this week when I was sick I really wanted ice cream because my throat was so sore and dry (and ice cream was always my sick comfort food) but eventually I’ll try and see if I can reintroduce heavy cream and eggs and if I can have those, then I think I can concoct an  unsweetened ice cream type thing for those times.

I can tell I’m still not quite adapted yet though - I still don’t quite have the energy that I think I should and there are a few other minor things that make me feel like I’m not quite “cruising” yet. So I’ve reintroduced pork (and we will see how that goes, so far so good) and I’ll test out eggs soon, and maybe dairy, but beyond that I think I’ll hold steady as much as I can for a while.

Other than that… this is pretty cool. It really takes a tremendous mind shift though. I’m still trying to come to terms with no more big fancy meals, etc.  

Bethany!  Wonderful to hear you are having such a positive experience.  It's amazing how the cravings go away and things just become so simple, isn't it?  Thank you so much for the update, your post totally made my day!

I am only 3 weeks in and my guts are healing and also have lost apetite, but it is coming back.It is just a different feeling. i am not on meat only as I have kept little very cured cheese and eggs. Also butter and even some cacao butter and coconut oil (still zero carb!). i am good at fat burning and I have no weight to loose at all. I also like to have fish.

I would only eat pork if cured or marinated, according to a trial with some blood analysis. They do not know why, but there is something wrong with even well cooked pork! The problem totally goes away with dry ham or making a marinade, but I do not remember the recipe of the marinade, just that there is a chemical change, it is not even about hygiena...

i have also introduced some coffee in hope to not deal with constipation, as it happened once. I am at my maximum for fats... But really, make mayonnaise if you have problem with fat digestion! And with salmon, it is the best of the top! with meat too it is good...

I have guests who eat normal and even vegetarian, and I have no problem, we make joke and i profit of the smells, even though I pretend that it smells super bad when they cook! i am happy my oranges get some use...
Today I had a bit of garlic, because my mayonaise of egg and butter would not get thick!

I also make broth and add an egg yolk to mix with the fat. I do not like to throw away, so I like to remove all around the bones...

My salt intake diminishes and I drink more.

Gastro Obscura has a new article: The Arctic Explorer Who Pushed an All-Meat Diet: Vilhjalmur Stefansson wanted to prove a point

In 1928, Vilhjalmur Stefansson was already world-famous. A Canadian anthropologist and consummate showman, he promoted the idea of a “Friendly Arctic,” open to exploration and commercialization. Newspapers and magazines breathlessly covered his sometimes-deadly escapades in the Arctic, including his discoveries of some of the world’s last unknown landmasses, and, more controversially, a group of “blond” Inuinnait who he claimed partially descended from Norse settlers. But for a little while, another facet of Stefansson’s life drew media attention. While living in New York for a year, Stefansson ate nothing but meat.

Time for me to post another update! I've been carnivore since February, so 7 months now, except for a month in the summer when I had to eat moderate carbs for an antimicrobial protocol. I am pretty sure I have SIBO (Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth) that leads to my digestive issues.

Anyway though, Zero Carb has alleviated almost all of those symptoms.

I have lost 45 lbs and went from a size 16 to an 8.
My skin is baby smooth, it used to be really bad with psoriasis and eczema
More energy overall
Sharper mental focus overall
My iron is still a tad bit lower than it should be, but I don't *feel* anemic anymore
I still sleep fantastically
No more sleep apnea, by the way
No plaque on my teeth

I could really go on. This has been so lifechanging.. Matt, you get major karma points for going out of your comfort zone and posting about it.

I have noticed my digestion is a little better if I include certain prebiotic foods like onions, garlic, etc. so I'm really only about 98% animal foods but it's still pretty amazing.

Phil Escott is a blogger who cured psoriasis with artritis with carnivore diet.

I am also using some onion for taste and did not think it could be prebiotic... i also use lemon juice often. The other day I bought fish ans shells. I cooked the shells with onion and an overripe lemon (I had to peel the moldy like roquefort skin!). the result was wonderful! I cooked the fish and add the "lapas" with the sauce on top....

I have just found goat "suero", that is left after making cheese, because it has almost no casein, and will see if I can have it, as cheese constipate me.

I tryed prickly pears this summer, and figs, and that was a disaster, I felt so tired!

Hooooooooo, and I have bought a little black pig! She loves to eat prickly pears instead of me! And she sucks bananas as if milk, so funny! Tomorrow I eat 2 cuys...

Bethany!!  You just made my day, thank you so much for posting your update. I believe that so many people who are suffering could be helped so much by this and us sharing our experiences is how we can help others, so thank you for being brave enough to share as well! Here's hoping we can inspire curiosity in more people.

Here are some more anecdotes from others who have become curious enough to give this a trial run.

I'm still sharing weekly, even though I don't have much new to say, but for anyone who wants to follow along here's the latest.

Since Paleo worked so well for me I've been interested in why.  
One theory is that the farther north your genes evolved the more meat (and especially the less carbs) your body can tolerate.  
For instance.
If you are of Inuit descent, your genes are a product of natural selection, those who needed carbs in their diet never got them, weren't as healthy, didn't reproduce as vigorously, and died of chronic condition. The ones that are left to become "Inuit" are genetic meat eaters  and continue to pass those genes down.
But if you give them a north American diet ... it pretty much kills most of them off. (all except those few who wouldn't have done well on a pure meat and fat diet)

If you were from a region of agriculture, those who couldn't digest the cereal grains didn't survive to reproduce well so everyone that was left were the ones who could tolerate them. That the less active peoples of those cultures (using grains) become unhealthy and pack on the fat in old age tells me it still isn't healthy, just tolerated.

My theory is to look where your genes originated (much tougher now with the world's population scattered and interbred) and there is an 80% probability that is an indicator of how many carbs your genes are naturally selected for to use as fuel and how much plant content you should look to.
None of us evolved to eat grains but since we came from those smart little monkeys we learned to make them edible, but as wild animals we wouldn't have done that. All carbs would have been vegetable sourced.

Roy Hinkley wrote:Since Paleo worked so well for me I've been interested in why.  
One theory is that the farther north your genes evolved the more meat (and especially the less carbs) your body can tolerate.  
For instance.
If you are of Inuit descent, your genes are a product of natural selection, those who needed carbs in their diet never got them, weren't as healthy, didn't reproduce as vigorously, and died of chronic condition. The ones that are left to become "Inuit" are genetic meat eaters  and continue to pass those genes down.
But if you give them a north American diet ... it pretty much kills most of them off. (all except those few who wouldn't have done well on a pure meat and fat diet)

If you were from a region of agriculture, those who couldn't digest the cereal grains didn't survive to reproduce well so everyone that was left were the ones who could tolerate them. That the less active peoples of those cultures (using grains) become unhealthy and pack on the fat in old age tells me it still isn't healthy, just tolerated.

My theory is to look where your genes originated (much tougher now with the world's population scattered and interbred) and there is an 80% probability that is an indicator of how many carbs your genes are naturally selected for to use as fuel and how much plant content you should look to.
None of us evolved to eat grains but since we came from those smart little monkeys we learned to make them edible, but as wild animals we wouldn't have done that. All carbs would have been vegetable sourced.

I agree with this very much. I do believe that fruits especially were a natural part of the human diet - maybe not crop vegetables, but during hunter/gatherer it makes sense that we would look for fruit and sweet/carby foods to help us put on some weight as a buffer for the long winter. It actually makes sense to me that the human race is INTENDED to put on body fat from carbohydrates, since with natural selection those people who were able to put on enough of a fat padding to get them through the winter were more likely to live through it rather than the people who maybe ate the same summer fruits/honey/etc but didn't put on the body fat. Unfortunately, in this day and age, that's not something we need LOL.

But I agree it is so highly regional. Inuit people are so sensitive to carbs because of that natural selection... I'd hazard a guess that you could take an inuit and feed them a medium carb diet and then take someone with tropical ancestry, feed them the same diet, and the inuit heritage person would be the one to gain weight. Most of my heritage personally is European - German, English, and Dutch. Not super duper far north, but definitely not tropical either, and I definitely do best on mostly meat, eggs, and raw milk with a few non-starchy vegetables.  

Just for the sake of argument, I'd like to point out that there are tropical cultures that are carnivorous.  Here in Kenya its the Masai.  I remember seeing some documentaries about Amazonian tribes as well.  Its interesting to see the difference in body structure between the Masai and my husband's luhya tribe.  Although the masai are now being forced into a Western diet, they are still about a foot taller than the average luhya and they have much better jaw and teeth structure.  The luhya were traditionally agrarian.  They are shorter and have smaller jaws with crowded, often crooked teeth.

How have you (speaking to the carnivore folks on this thread) deal with food addictions... I can't seem to make it over that hump.  I have a long history of disordered eating, so I seem to hit a psychological  barrier about 3 days in, where I feel panicky.  My health has really gone down hill since I left the farm and moved to town... I need to get a handle on my diet or I think I'm headed for big trouble.

Maureen Atsali wrote:Just for the sake of argument, I'd like to point out that there are tropical cultures that are carnivorous.  Here in Kenya its the Masai.  I remember seeing some documentaries about Amazonian tribes as well.  Its interesting to see the difference in body structure between the Masai and my husband's luhya tribe.  Although the masai are now being forced into a Western diet, they are still about a foot taller than the average luhya and they have much better jaw and teeth structure.  The luhya were traditionally agrarian.  They are shorter and have smaller jaws with crowded, often crooked teeth.

How have you (speaking to the carnivore folks on this thread) deal with food addictions... I can't seem to make it over that hump.  I have a long history of disordered eating, so I seem to hit a psychological  barrier about 3 days in, where I feel panicky.  My health has really gone down hill since I left the farm and moved to town... I need to get a handle on my diet or I think I'm headed for big trouble.

Maureen something to consider is the gut-brain connection. I don't think it's your fault. It may be that you are fighting an uphill battle with food addictions because you may have an overgrowth of bacteria in your stomach that is causing you to crave them. They can send "crave" signals to the brain. They also are often what make us anxious about food especially the addicting foods. I'm not sure if you're talking about carbs but usually when people refer to food addictions, that's what they are talking about. As opposed to addictions to meat or even pure fat (I've never heard of anyone having either).

When i went carnivore, the first three days were the hardest but mostly because of "keto flu" which is basically, bacteria dying off. I felt really sick and tired. After about a week, I didn't crave the sugar and carbs anymore. Now - I still *miss* them. I know I'd enjoy eating them. But it wasn't an uncontrollable craving anymore. I could bake bread for my kids, take a sniff of the fresh baked bread, and that would be it. I even made cookies for my dad and wasn't really tempted to have one - I knew in my head it would taste good, but I wasn't fighting myself to not eat one.

I really think it's because I killed off so much of the bacteria overgrowth in my stomach that was causing me to crave carbohydrates to begin with. ALso - check out the book "Obesity code" by Dr Jason Fung. He really goes into the science of why our bodies crave carbohydrates and we always want more even if we're full. Like for example if you finish dinner and you're pretty full and someone offers you another porkchop you would probably politely decline. But we always seem to have room for dessert, right? It's because of all that.

So I don't know if there's any way for you to get past that three day marker except by willpower. You could also check into the symptoms of SIBO, which is what I had (might still have). It's an overgrowth of bacteria in your small intestine where there is actually not supposed to much much, if any, bacteria. They have medical protocols you can do to kill off the bacteria but you eat lots of carbs while you're doing it (which is what I did this summer). That might be something that could help kickstart things for you as well.

Maureen, I am so sorry you left your farm!

Will power is not the best aliate, if it leads to feel guilty or ashame for not having enough... If you have stress, which is a body reaction and not psychological, after all, when we live in not so good conditions, we are indeed living in a relative lack of the necessary security.... then you might have cortisol issues and even cortisol resistance same as what can happen with insuline. It happens that the lack of sugar can drive the cortisol quite high, and also mess with the thyroid. If you are a bit hypo then sugars are quite useful indeed.

I would advise you to look for a hair test through TEI lab. It will tell you many things! I lacked phosphorus, showing I lacked stomach acid to be able to break proteins into useful amino-acids. I took betain hcl and digestive enzymes.

Then I also went progressive, and kept some greens for a long time, like bitters, for my liver and stimulating natural acid. Coconut oil was useful too.


At the moment, a carnivore diet has not solved all my issues, but it is indeed efficient for SIBO.
And even a vegan friend admitted that he saw me with more energy since I eat carnivore...

I was doing keto as 2 of my good friends lost tremendous amount of weight.

Than I went to my specialist doctor for checkups and mentioned keto.

She said, research proved that people doing low carb diet die younger

Then I started thinking; too much of anything is poison, isn't it. Eating just meat, fat etc. no matter if they are organic, grass fed, ethical is not a solution.

The solution is (in my humble opinion) to eat small amounts of each and every food group. This is actually dictated where you and your ancestors have raised. In India, lentil and rice, in China, mostly rice, in Middle east, wheat, in Europe, potato, in Americas, corn and pumpkin are the main sources of carbs. Your intestines evolved to process these carbs.

They didn't exactly say that low carb diets will make you die younger.  They said  "People who a moderate amount of carbohydrates live longer".   They also said "Researchers believe this is because low carb dieters eat more animal products".

If you were to increase your consumption of factory produced, GMO fed, grocery store bought meat, that was also raised on little but corn it's no surprise to me you would be facing an earlier death.

Gurkan Yeniceri wrote:I was doing keto as 2 of my good friends lost tremendous amount of weight.

Than I went to my specialist doctor for checkups and mentioned keto.

She said, research proved that people doing low carb diet die younger

Then I started thinking; too much of anything is poison, isn't it. Eating just meat, fat etc. no matter if they are organic, grass fed, ethical is not a solution.

The solution is (in my humble opinion) to eat small amounts of each and every food group. This is actually dictated where you and your ancestors have raised. In India, lentil and rice, in China, mostly rice, in Middle east, wheat, in Europe, potato, in Americas, corn and pumpkin are the main sources of carbs. Your intestines evolved to process these carbs.

1- your body has to choose between burning fat or carbs, and therre are some hints about having to be high in either of the 2 instead of almost the same. It is also possible to change between summer and winter.
The body can need 3 days to change fuel! So it is tiring maybe to go from one to the other too often?

2- My organic acid test proved I am not good at burning carbs.... and no problem for fats.

3- A diet can be temporary, if it is for healing, like for example suppressing carbs to solve SIBO.

4- The tradition argument is not always right, though it should... It is ok to eat as your ancesters when you really do (in India they changed the quality of the ingredients in some subtle ways that can mess up with the balance they had before, like having insects-free grains and thus not enough vitamine B12). But when you still have the recipes but not with the exact quality of ingredient, then...
It is fine also when you had no antibiotics! In Italy they say you need to eat "al dente", which means that you leave the center a bit hard = RS the famous "resistant starch"! Then you colon is supposed to have the right bacterias there to ferment and make some sort of fat they can give you up to 500 Kcal a day.

Now what if you lack them because of antibiotics or having had your appendice removed? (it is the reserve of bacterias when the colon's were wiped out)
Now what if you have any problem making those bacterias go up into the small intestine and fermenting where you don't want fermentation?

All these studies that say low carbers and meat-eaters will die early have already been dismissed as incomplete and unscientific.  I am much more afraid of dying from diabetic complications than I am of dying from eating a clean low carb or carnivorous diet.

Having said that, I am trying again to zero carb, attempting to make it over that three day hump.  I am desperate to feel better.

Maureen Atsali wrote:Just for the sake of argument, I'd like to point out that there are tropical cultures that are carnivorous.  Here in Kenya its the Masai.  I remember seeing some documentaries about Amazonian tribes as well.  Its interesting to see the difference in body structure between the Masai and my husband's luhya tribe.  Although the masai are now being forced into a Western diet, they are still about a foot taller than the average luhya and they have much better jaw and teeth structure.  The luhya were traditionally agrarian.  They are shorter and have smaller jaws with crowded, often crooked teeth.

How have you (speaking to the carnivore folks on this thread) deal with food addictions... I can't seem to make it over that hump.  I have a long history of disordered eating, so I seem to hit a psychological  barrier about 3 days in, where I feel panicky.  My health has really gone down hill since I left the farm and moved to town... I need to get a handle on my diet or I think I'm headed for big trouble.

When I went to the Masai Mara, I didn't see any of these Giants. I saw mostly spindly men who are eeking out a living in the scrub. I listened to a blowhard guy tell us about his 10 wives. When we called him on it and he eventually went down to two. I don't know if he has any . .Then he told me about their fighting ability. I'd say the average guy there was a hundred and thirty pounds. They photograph quite tall when seen on their own. I don't know who's coming up with those average heights of around five feet ten. I'm 5-9 and I'm on the left of this picture. I'm guessing I'm about 70 pounds heavier than the average in this picture.

The guy leading the tour told us that they only ate meat and blood. I pointed out the 10,000 pieces of plastic garbage, which consisted of candy bar wrappers and bags of sugar and rice packages mixed with soft drink bottles.." So who made this mess?" They ignored my question. Later the chief, a man in his forties who looked like he was in the 60s, staggered out of his shit hole house, drunk. It's possible that the bunch I met weren't representative.

The guy giving the talk went on at length about stick fighting and hunting lions, and I'm sure that was true of his ancestors. But these guys were performing for tourists. They were mostly guys in the twenties and thirties, I was 53 at the time. I offered 10000 Shillings if someone wanted to wrestle me and they could win. There were no takers. I'm sure there are some Maasai somewhere that are still hunting lions and stick fighting. It sure wasn't these guys.

I was there with Loice, a woman of the Luo tribe, who are a bit shorter but far more robust. They make up the bulk of Kenya's rugby team. I am pretty sure Loice could have taken most of these guys in a wrestling match. She's pretty strong and she has 30 pounds on most of them.

Haha Dale. You crack me up.  Note I mentioned in my original post that the Masai have gone to the standard western diet.  I went to the city park yesterday in Kakamega.  While relaxing 5 masai men came and sat in a semi-circle about 5 feet away from me, aparently fascinated by my daughter.  They were all close to six foot, but yes rather scrawny.  How many generations of eating sh*t does it take to ruin your genetic heritage?

Given you were at a tourist sight, i would question if your entertainers were really Masai or just some random actors?  The few Masai I know here come for work and usually work as security guards...or sell beaded sandals while they walk around in shoes made from recycled tires.  And they eat ugali like everyone else.

Luo's eat a lot of fish, so perhaps that explains their robustness.  Although my first friend in Kenya was a 6 foot 1 inch Luo man who was so skinny you could practically see through him.  Lots of variation I guess.

And as long as I am posting i should add that day 1 of carivory has been rough.   I went into the slums to do a home visit, and I almost fainted... Which would have been really bad because there was no vehicular access to this particular squatters slum.  I'm not really sure the cause.  They were cooking over charcoal indoors in a tiny mud room with no windows, and it was like an oven in there... So carbon monoxide? Or hypoglycemia? Or anemia on my part?  I had an orange in my back pack and I sucked that down to make sure I could get out of there on my own two feet.  I made it home, but I still feel tired and weak.  Impending malaria is also a possibility.  So i ate an orange.  I dont intend to eat anything else non-animal today.  But oh well, try again tomorrow.

These guys were right at the park entrance as were their wives and children. There's a fairly permanent looking encampment, with garbage everywhere. Only the Masai live there. And every other thing about their look is consistent.

Away from the park entrance they are herding and farming. There were women trying to sell jewelry at the park gate. The most irritating people I've encountered. One lady had high-quality stuff that I was purchasing,.  Another grabbed the money from my hand, but I grabbed her arm and that ended that little interaction. It was absolute buffoonery, being sold as a cultural exchange.

Inside the dwellings, there were constant fires smoldering away, with no means of getting rid of the smoke, other than it slowly filtering through the building materials that were a mixture of sticks, mud and dung. Away from the park, it appears that alternate building methods are being used. Clay walls with metal roofing, which is common everywhere that I went.

We went to Kakamega Forest on Easter Sunday and it was deserted. Only saw one other vehicle and no one on foot. Nobody at the ranger station or where the guides are, and not one person camping or any evidence that anyone had camped. It was a strange situation in such a crowded country.

It's funny that you mentioned that there are skinny Luo. Our driver Caleb, is the skinniest person I've known, who wasn't hospitalized for it. He had a wandering eye and was very keen on the rather voluptuous female version of Luo along the road sides. Loice slapped his head from the back seat a few times, and said she would tell his wife. Several times, she barked his name so sharply that I thought we were about to crash, but it was just her policing the visual landscape.
........
Back to the diet thing. My point, and I should have one, is that I don't think there's much unique about their diet anymore. They live at the world's most famous game parks, the Serengeti and Masai Mara which are really one enormous Park. And we've seen them on TV and in all those wild life videos. For some reason people have chosen to romanticize them because of this. I think if the park was occupied by the Lou or Kalenjin, or Kikuyu, or any of the 49 recognized tribes in the country, people would be familiar with them and that's who they'd romanticize. There's about 50 million people in the country and about 1 million of them are Maasai. Yet this is probably the tribe people have heard mentioned most in Africa, other than those involved in the Rwanda genocide, which were the Hutu and Tutsi. I doubt if your average person outside of Africa could name five more tribes.

The people eating the most natural diet seem to be the pygmies. I've only seen one family of pygmies. They were rather short, extremely short actually and I don't think their diet had much to do with that. Bantus living close by, and presumably eating many of the same things, are taller. I'm not sure that height is a good measure of how healthy a population is. The Japanese are the longest-lived people on earth. For some reason they don't dominate the NBA.

Interesting topic.  I just ran across this interview of Jordan Peterson by Joe Rogan (I don't necessarily agree with either of their opinions in other arenas, however).
There is also another interview available with his daughter, Mikhaila.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLF29w6YqXs

I think there are some idiosynchratic genetic sensitivities in their whole family, which points to the fact that we are all much more different than doctors seem to understand.  But the results of the carnivore diet appear to have been miraculous for them, even though it flies in the face of the USDA and major medical institutions' decades of preaching and teaching.  An entertaining book on the history of governmental nutrition 'advice' is 'Death by Food Pyramid'... well referenced, and dietarily unbiased.  

Gurkan.... here's more info on that alarming article in Lancet.  (Also, there are allusions to a 'meat tax' floating around in Britain, in order to reduce CO2.  Hmmm...)
https://chriskresser.com/will-a-low-carb-diet-shorten-your-life/?_ke=eyJrbF9lbWFpbCI6ICJuZXN1dHRvbkB5YWhvby5jb20iLCAia2xfY29tcGFueV9pZCI6ICJteTc1eTYifQ%3D%3D&utm_term=low-carb-diet-shorten&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ck-general&utm_content=&utm_source=klaviyo

This Canadian guy eating almost only beef suggests that the problem of other diets can come from too much vitamine A, and cured himself by depleting it!
So he does not eat liver nor eggs...

https://ggenereux.blog/2016/04/22/ending-the-mystery-of-auto-immune/

This seems like a way to achieve a goal my little brother and I had while thru-hiking the Pacific Crest Trail. How could we improve our daily mileage covered by eliminating time-consuming and food wasting bowel movements...we called it "operating at 100% efficiency"

I've had something of a change of heart recently.
I had an audiobook, How Not to Die.  I'm not going to preach here but it's convinced me to try and make vegan work.

He has a website - actual results from scientific studies ... before the results get sanitized for public consumption. This is truly the best "food as medicine" resource I've ever found.
https://nutritionfacts.org/