• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • r ranson
  • paul wheaton
  • Mike Jay
  • Anne Miller
  • Jocelyn Campbell
stewards:
  • Devaka Cooray
  • Joseph Lofthouse
  • Burra Maluca
garden masters:
  • Dave Burton
  • Pearl Sutton
gardeners:
  • James Freyr
  • Joylynn Hardesty
  • Daron Williams

Paul has cervical radiculopathy (from a bulging disc) - advice?  RSS feed

 
pollinator
Posts: 958
Location: Longbranch, WA
84
chicken goat rabbit solar tiny house wofati
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Sorry I did not hear about this until Cas put it in the dailish and it is up to three pages already.
I am the expert! this is my signature line:
Hans Albert Quistorff, LMP
Antalgic Posture Pain Specialist
Thank you Jocelyn for the clear palpation description. The shoulder blade lifter [medical translation: levator scapula] also works in reverse to hold the head up by pulling back on the neck. Which explains the tender spot on the top inside corner of the shoulder blade. Let us see if we can get some relief before i go into 'I told you so' mode.
The computer is a perfect illustration for this problem. You have a corrupt program running which is jamming the cervical joints when you try to look down at the laptop screen. It takes 90 seconds to shut the errant program down then you need to carefully reboot without it starting up again. Procedure: Which ever side is most tender put the hand of that side on the opposite shoulder then turn the head back toward the tender shoulder if that dose not press on the inflamed nerve and rest it on the bed for 90 seconds. If it helps visualize the program shutting down in the cerebellum and preparing for a clean reboot. Perhaps with Jocelyn's help bring the arm slowly up off the chest and move the elbow toward the side and slowly open the elbow with the palm up. This may give relief and if it is on the other side as well may have to be repeated for that side. The program is still there and can be triggered again so some of the exercises recommended may help you get it out of your system but you know you can not remove a program while it is running so they cause more pain and do not work until you stop the pattern.
Notice the palm up in the steps above. It is not with out cause that yoga poses are commonly with the palm up. When the palms are down toward the keyboard the muscle that lines the underside of the shoulder blade is activated and the pull continues from the inside edge of the shoulder blade to the spine at bottom of the neck. This hunched position shortens the support for the head which is trying to look down at the laptop. If you understand foot pounds every inch that the head tilts forward doubles the foot pounds of pressure at the base of the neck. One instructor calls it the 42 pound head.
Before lap tops everyone was told to put the monitor up at eye level to avoid this problem. I compromise and use my laptop in bed where I can prop it against my legs and keep the screen at eye height. No mater what your keyboarding position train yourself whenever you stop to think turn your palms up and pull your head and shoulders back and look away from the screen. This resets the program before the erent program is triggered again. It also keeps windows from popping up a dialog "Do you want to turn on sticky keys?"
Feel free to PM or email me with questions. I am the only massage therapist I now of that practices on the internet. Some clients even send me payment by paypal.
 
Posts: 7
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hello Paul and Jocelyn,

After hearing about your problem and reading some of the replies, I think that the homeopathic and natural options have mostly been put forth. Rightly, some people have also gently suggested that Paul's weight, which has been an issue on the back burner, is rather forcefully moving to the front burner, heat high. I do believe this means that now and not later is the time to begin to consider these topics again. I know that there has been much thought and discussion put into diet and health considerations, and that Paul has been waiting for some magical time when he can show that the new situation will result in a fabulous weight loss. What I have discovered since the discussions we had a few summers ago is that there is another side to losing weight and reducing stress, and it has to do less with what exactly you eat than in how you eat it.

Although it is of course important to eat the highest quality foods that can be obtained, it is equally important, if not more so, to eat thoughtfully, slowly, and at the proper times to maximize the body's native digestive and metabolic forces. I recently ran across a wonderful book that explains in a sensitive and balanced way how to use whatever food you think it's best to eat to get increased energy, vitality, and well-being while decreasing weight, stress and toxic overload. I don't diet and don't believe in diets, but if you can get over the name, the book is really great. It's called The Slow Down Diet by Marc David.

I think Paul's body is sending him an unequivocal message that it's time to slow down. He can still get a lot done, but he needs to stop sacrificing his body for his mind, and integrate both very important parts together. I don't think this crisis is in any way a signal that Paul needs to give up his life of crusading and innovation. I think he just needs to take this opportunity to listen to what his body is saying, and re-organize a bit so that he can take himself to a higher level of existence, and then continue to inspire the rest of us to learn and grow as well. Remember that the body is smart. It only resorts to these extreme measures when we don't listen to the gentle reminders. Paul knows that he has been ignoring the gentle reminders to slow down for some time. So listen and learn and then you can start slowing down to get more done, at the very least more than you can do flat on your back, eh?

Love and best wishes to you both,

Rebecca Boshemian.
 
Posts: 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi all. I'm surprised that there hasn't been more mainstream medical advice given about Paul's condition. If you consult a dermatomes anatomical chart online, you will see which parts of the body are innervated by each nerve root exiting the spinal column. The pain may be felt anywhere along that specific nerve pathway. The problem is at the spine however. You may have a problem at multiple levels typically adjacent to each other. Because the issue is generally inflammation, ice will be the most effective at reducing the inflammation/symptoms/pain. Over-the-counter(OTC) anti-inflammatory pain medications like Aleve(Naproxen Sodium) will be the most effective OTC treatment. If you are taking any narcotic pain killers like Norco, Lortab, etc., then under no circumstances should you take any other medications containing acetaminophen(Tylenol) as large doses or prolonged doses can be extremely toxic to your liver and can result in death. Many people don't realize that most prescription pain pills have acetaminophen in them. If the problem is not significantly improved in 5-7 days with rest, ice and the pain pills and muscle relaxants your doctor gave you, then you need to return to your physician for diagnostic studies, such as an MRI. Cervical radiculopathy can be caused by several different factors such as a ruptured disc, arthritis, cervical muscle spasms, narrowing of the spinal canal and others. I would also discourage you from using natural remedies as suggested. It is difficult to quantify doses of botanicals, and many of them interact with prescribed medications. If you are taking natural remedies, make certain that you record everything you are taking with the dosage and give this information to your physician. Something as simple as grapefruit can interfere with the intestinal cytochrome P450 3A4 system and cause normal doses of some medications not to be processed by the liver and result in toxic concentrations. Avoid any activity that makes the pain worse. Sleeping on your back with a rolled hand towel under your neck, a folded bath towel under your lower back and a pillow or two under your knees so that you maintain the three natural curves of your spine, may reduce the pain. If the origin of the radiculopathy is muscle spams secondary to muscular strain or injury then moist heat and massage may be helpful. If the radiculopathy is from other causes, heat may be counterproductive because it will dilate blood vessels in the area and can increase swelling and make the inflammation worse. Should you have an injury or condition that requires surgery, the sooner the surgery is performed the greater the likelihood of a full recovery. Paul, I hope it is just a simple muscle strain and that you bounce right back. Get well soon!!!



 
Posts: 19
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I've had some success treating nerve and joint pains and issues with urtication.
Sounds like a massive bucket of crazy to many people but it has been surprisingly effective for me in the past. A gentle brushing with a nettle around the affected area to start with and you can progress this to full on sadistic nettle whipping if it'd helping.
Don't forget to thank the plant for the serotonin and all its other stingy brain food!
 
Troy Cook
Posts: 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
On the topic of weight loss I suggest "Dr. Gundry's Diet Evolution: Turn Off the Genes That Are Killing You--And Your Waistline--And Drop the Weight for Good". Dr. Gundry is world renowned Heart Surgeon and Pediatric Heart Surgeon. He revolutionized open heart surgery with his invention of the Gundry Retroprofusion Cannula along with numerous other contributions to the specialty. He struggled with his weight for many years despite exercising faithfully and eating a sensible diet. He spent years researching weight-loss before finally figuring out what was making him overweight. His book has helped me immensely. I suffer from Myotonic Muscular Dystrophy, a genetic disorder which causes obesity and diabetes along with many other problems. After following his advice, not only have I lost weight, but more importantly, I have stabilized my blood sugar dramatically.
 
Posts: 1
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
In my increasing number of years in this world, and having been through a fair number of episodes of pain related to muscle strain and resulting mis-alignment of my spine (head to tail), I have found that inversion therapy, gently eased into, has proven to be my deliverance from pain; and with proper diet and exercise, kept me from the indescribable pain and agony of being "out of order." My prayers and best wishes are with you Paul as you work your way through this most challenging time.
 
Posts: 1
Location: Salmon, Idaho
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
200 miles south of Missoula is The Country Doctor, a regionally renowned Palmerist chiropractor. known for repairing cowboys, cowhands, stupids and mountain climbers from major back pain. Known as Dr John or that guy in Challis because nobody can pronounce his last name, he's tough to get an appointment with, but there's a rumor that a Franklin will get you an emergency end of day adjustment. I've been there, he fixed me and he's a conversationalist if you've got a good topic. And the drive down 93 is gorgeous.
 
Posts: 37
Location: Wyoming Zone 3b
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Read through previous posts quickly, didn't see mention of these:

Bowen Therapy - Rose Stoudt is in Missoula and does nice work. I practiced this for 13 years and had good success with people trying to avoid neck surgery.
Rose Stoudt
1101 South 3rd St W Suite 101
Missoula, Montana MT 59801
Phone: 406-880-8060
Web Site: www.RoseStoudt.com

Network chiropractic - not sure if you have someone in the area, but this is very gentle, neurologically based. I've experienced good results.

Medicinal leeches - I buy mine from http://leeches.biz They might help reduce inflammation enough so you can have a chance to work on longer term solutions. For more info this fb group is awesome: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1522809807957572/ And this book is a good guide for starting out: http://www.amazon.com/Medicinal-Leech-Therapy-Andreas-Michalsen-ebook/dp/B005QEBFNG/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?ie=UTF8&dpID=41YXNOaHIrL&dpPl=1&keywords=leech%20therapy&pi=AC_SY200_QL40&qid=1434549028&ref=plSrch&ref_=mp_s_a_1_2&sr=8-2

Neck pain sucks - been there! Lots of good suggestions here - hope you are feeling better soon.
 
pollinator
Posts: 4339
Location: Anjou ,France
240
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Advice - get off the computer go out side, walk lots . Do this for weeks, Permies and the code ranch can cope
Do not go back on the computer until you have been well two weeks .
My bill is in the post

David
 
Posts: 7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
5 grams Turmeric + black pepper daily is good for all sorts of inflammation
dose thru out the day, heating turmeric is said to improve uptake
Get well soon,
mike
 
Posts: 22
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
12 yrs ago I ruptured 2 disks in my neck in an accident and the result is chronic pain and spasms etc ,the first 6 months were major agony. This is what I learned over the years so far ; find or make yourself a rice bag or bags of appropriate size for warming the muscles when they are spasming and or refuse to stretch,a hot wet towel can help, use any kind of topical linament you find that works to confuse the nerves so that they are not making your life hell, do go to a good chiropractor, do find a good physiotherapist and do go to a good doctor, use what ever appropriate pain medication you need to get through this and be careful when mixing natural and maimstream pharma,some times an accupuncturist helps a lot, acupressure helps as well if one know what they are doing,some yoga stretches for sore backs have been helpful and can be found on youtube. Meditation is an absolute must because the more tense the pain makes you the more pain you are in.
Blessings
 
Posts: 69
Location: Vermont
7
chicken forest garden fungi rabbit solar trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Once you have the pain under control, through conventional and/or alternative methods, I recommend wood betony. It is a great perennial, works best over time and it tastes good as a tea or you can make a tincture. I drink it every day and it helps with pain and mood. The following is a Google quote:
"One of the most helpful herbal remedies in treating weak muscles and nerve pain may be wood betony. The leaves of the wood betony plant, also known as Stachys officinalis, notes expert herbalist Ed Smith, author of "Therapeutic Herb Manual," contain numerous medicinal ingredients that may be helpful in treating your nerve pain. This remedy is also known for its ability to alter muscle tone and function."
Wood betony is a nervine. More info from Google:
What is a Nervine?

A nervine is a plant remedy that has a beneficial effect upon the nervous system in some way. This makes the word nervine into a bit of a catch-all expression, and to study them properly they must be differentiated into 3 major categories: nervine relaxants, nervine stimulants, and nervine tonics. Any successful treatment of nervous system problems with these herbs will involve treating the whole body and not simply the signs & symptoms. With life being such a stress and problem for humanity today these herbs can be of great use and importance.

1) Nervine Tonics (or trophorestoratives) are perhaps the most important contribution herbal medicine can make in the whole area of stress & anxiety, and in strengthening & “feeding” the nervous system. In cases of nervous debility, the nervine tonics strengthen and restore the tissues directly. Note: Adaptogens should also be considered in this group due to their ability to aid the whole of the body and mind to cope with demands made upon it. Some herbal examples include:

Avena sativa (Oats)
Bacopa monniera (Brahmi)
Borago officinalis (Borage)
Centella asiatica (Gotu kola)
Hypericum perforatum (St. John’s wort)
Verbena officinalis (Blue vervain)
Vinca major/minor (Periwinkle)
2) Nervine Relaxants are a group that has become increasingly important in our times of stress and tension. They are the closest natural alternative for the orthodox nerve tranquilizers, but should always be used in a broad holistic way. Too much tranquilizing, even that achieved through herbal medication, can in time deplete and weight heavily on the whole nervous system. However, the physical symptoms that can so often accompany the ill-ease of anxiety may be well treated with herbs that work on the anxiety itself. When the physical body is at ease, ease in the psyche is promoted. Note: In high doses many of these herbs can act as sedatives or Hypnotics. Some herbal examples include:

Lavendula off. (Lavender)
Humulus lupulus (Hops)
Melissa off. (Lemon Balm)
Matricaria recutita (Chamomile)
Stachys off. (Wood Betony)
Scutelleria lateriflora (Skullcap)
Passiflora incarnata (Passionflower)
Tilia europea (Linden)
Lactuca virosa (Wild Lettuce)
Piper methysticum (Kava Kava)

Be well. My thoughts are with you.
 
Posts: 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have nothing what would immediadly help to the condition itself, but as for a long term strategy in avoiding it I would suggest an standing desk, either electonic, permanent or mechanical, what makes it possible to lift the table to ergonomical standing position as sitting is really bad for the back, for blood circle and studies show that if one sits was it more than 4hours a day you are prone to sudden death.
 
Posts: 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
You might try gokhalemethod.com. She (Esther Gokhale) was featured on Dr. Joseph Mercolas site. You can search Youtube for some of her videos on correcting posture. I had similar issues, though I was never checked out by a doctor or in quite that much pain. One thing I can tell you is that it it took time to get that way, and it took time to force my back into correct posture. Exercise helped a LOT. I can't tell you how many times doing a bench press actually made me feel better. The weight (usually around 80 lbs) would often "crack" my back, and then I'd be good to go. Get used to using an orthopedic pillow, and a firm mattress that doesn't sink in.

Lastly......diet. Paul's a big guy. All I can say there is, Markus Rothkranz. Look him up. He's to raw food what Paul is to permaculture. Hope Paul gets better soon!
 
Posts: 5
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi friends. Too many posts for me to tell if someone has already suggested these things or not. I'll let you be your own filter.

I have suffered from headaches due to a pinched nerve in the neck, triggering muscle spasms like you describe. I loose pressure in a disk I think, micro-fissure due to a car accident is my hypothesis. This is in my neck above the shoulder line so if yours is in a different place maybe your mileage will vary. But this is what is working for me:
1) drink enough fluids. If I drink enough (which tends to be a bit more than "normal" so I kind of have to force myself) it definitely helps keep the disk from being robbed of fluids (I can actually hear it leaking out if I feel thirsty for too long...weird I know!)
2) used to be 4 advil (800mg, the max dose prescribed by a doctor to my wife to knock down her back pain inflammation), and 1000mg tylenol before bed, plus sleeping on an ice pack would work. But I stopped with these meds because of the possible danger. I now use aspirin and tylenol according to directions. The point being inflammation causes pain and tension which causes more inflammation, so if you can knock the inflammation down all at once (hence the high does of Advil) it can start to break the tension cycle. Any anti-inflammatory should help then. My wife was able to stop the Advil trick after a steroid shot to the area.
3) Ice pack is something like this: Chattanooga ColPac Cold Therapy, Blue Vinyl, Standard-Size Cold Pack (11" x 14") https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000EAPNCQ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awd_YRkSwbG84M2HJ
I find the larger size better, I can lay it under my head and back, then wrap the side up around my neck and shoulders a little when laying on my back.
4) light traction by: laying on my back with my knees bent, then tucking my ice pack/pillow up under the arch of my neck to support it, then lower my knees. This shifts my body slightly to put gentle traction on the spine.
5) Calms Forte. Hyland's Calms Forte Sleep Aid Tablets, Natural Stress and Sleep Relief, 300 Count https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001EPQ43C/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awd_7YkSwbX8MTKZG . I take 4 (sometimes 5) at once before bed, as a muscle relaxant. Sometimes I take 2 or 3 (plus coffee!) in the morning to continue the effect. Sometimes I smash the tabs in a spoon of vodka and let it soak a bit, then hold the mixture under my tongue for a few minutes to absorb it more quickly before swallowing.
6) A blend of peppermint, rosemary verbenone ("rosemary" is different and not the same effect, but is better than none if you can't find the verbenone type), and eucalyptus essential oils, in a pretty high concentration. Something like 2 parts peppermint, 1 part rosemary, .5 part Eucalyptus, 1 part carrier oil, maybe? I'm still working on what is best, but one time out of desperation I tried these in some random formulation and pow! My muscles relaxed. I actually felt them trying to tense, them being forced to relax, over and over. They couldn't maintain their tension. Now that I think about it, it may have been coupled with Calms Forte. Note also that time it was definitely rosemary verbenone in the mix (not just rosemary, which I hear is different). I carry a little roller bottle of the mix in my pocket, apply it if/when I feel my muscles starting to tense up. And note that I tried each of these oils separately and in pairs; only the trio together had the right effect.
7) Recently I've tried alternating the ice pack with a hot pad every 10-30 minutes, that seems to really help.
THIS has been the key recently: Cervical Neck Traction Device for Head & Shoulder Pain - Inflatable Neck Pillow / Cervical Traction Pillow - #1 Doctors Recommended - Improved Home Cervical Traction Device with Adjustable Size, Bigger Pump, Extended Velcro, Premium, Durable & High Quality https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00U0K4RPO/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awd_BalSwbXZK2DAP
I wear it for 20ish minutes at a time. Buried in the reviews (for this model or another) someone suggested that (20 minutes?) a day for a month and your body will change posture and strengthen muscles to help hold your neck straighter and heal properly, so after a while you won't need it anymore. I'm going on 2-3 weeks now and I definitely have fewer problems and headaches than I used to. Besides tractioning my neck, it forces my shoulders more down and back, which is a necessary posture to take the pressure off my neck.
9) I raised my computer monitor to eye level so I can maintain my head balance. Letting it tip forward to look down all day (I program for a career) was a killer. Also learn touch typing so you don't have to look at the keys. Now I stand at my desk with monitor at eye level and it makes a huge difference.

Good luck! Hope you find the right solution for you.
 
                                                
Posts: 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hello,

I am a Doctor, a Chiropractor specifically. Been taking care of folks for close to 30 years now. What has been said mostly is correct about inflammation. To give you more accurate advice feel free to email me directly and ask for my phone number or we can do a skype session.

Best wishes
Robert
 
Posts: 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Acupuncture would no doubt help tremendously, but assuming you dont have an acupuncturist near you, acupressure is something that you or loved ones can do on you. This is probably similar to trigger point therapy. Profound results from holding or putting pressure on certain points. This site is an excellent resource.
http://www.acupressure.com/

all the best!
 
Posts: 167
Location: MAINE
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
have to be careful with the pain killers as they inhibit the waste mgmt system
slowing it down to a crawl or even worse causing ulcers.

that said: JC shave Pauls neck smoother than a babies bottom
then you can attach lido caine (5%) patches to numb it down several notches
and they will stick and work for 8 hours

paul ..... ask for a prescription for lido caine 5% cream and or patches

increase your lecithin intake as it protects the myalin sheath surrounding your
nerve bundles since your REM sleep (when /where it gets replenished) has been
compromised.
then the pressure can't inflict pain so easily....

chondroitin/ glucosamine and hyaluronic acid- (your body makes less after age 40)
are 3 lubricants you need for (getem at puritanpride)
full range of motion pumpkin seed oil and fish oils help too

my thoughts...and what i currently use

 
Posts: 184
Location: Hardiness Zone 5
31
chicken forest garden hugelkultur purity wofati woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Here's some things I know have personally worked for me. Though I've never had such pain as Paul, it does good things for the body!

---------------

Invert to allow adrenals to heal.
sleep/rest with hips slightly above the head.
Re-Charge Your Body and Mind for Maximum Regeneration! - David Wolfe PART ONE


---------------

Nerve Regeneration:
Skullcap herb mends the Nervous System. also helps with relaxation.
A good quality brand: Oregon's Wild Harvest - they grow herbs Bio-dynamically!

----------------

Dr. Joel Wallach's 90 essential nutrients while avoiding gluten & cooked oils:
This guy is known for "curing" many famous & important people.

----------------

Earthing/Grounding:
The natural energy of the earth is healing, relaxing & Painkilling!
David Wolfe's Earthing Experiment - Part One


 
Posts: 89
Location: Poplar Hill, Ontario (near London) - Zone 6a
8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Since I know getting back on the computer will be important to Paul, consider radical changes to the ways of inferfacing with it, such as a standing a work station, dictation software instead of typing (or a therapeutic keyboard/mouse of some kind), or a strict daily diet of hours on the computer, working up gradually from just a few minutes per day.

Best of luck with healing. My 2 cents would be to find the ways of de-stressing that Paul is most interested in, and pursuing them. I tend to think of this kind of a problem coming from an overall heavy load, so just like with energy usage, look for the actions that will have the most affect, and address those first. Unlike energy, they might not always be easy to diagnose as the things that are really causing the most stress!

 
Posts: 1
chicken tiny house purity
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I haven't negotiated the posting thing on here yet, but felt I should share on this topic.

So sorry to hear of the PAIN!! My husband also gets bouts of cervical nerve pain (from a not very ergonomic situation at his computer) and I get sciatic pain very rarely... During those times we tend to eat a lot of FORMULA 303 natural relaxant pills filled with valerian root, passiflora and magnesium carbonate. It really helps with the muscle spasms that create / come from the nerve and then re-inflame the nerve. I think its a chicken / egg thing which comes first but with yoga stretching and formula 303 we never have to suffer more than a couple days.

I certainly hope that you can find a solution that works for you and it never comes back! Best of luck!
 
Posts: 9
Location: Madison, WI
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Coincidentally (if you believe in such things as coincidence), when I received your message a was taking a break from reading "Breathwalk: Breathing Your Way to a Revitalized Body, Mind and Spirit" by Gurucharan Singh Khalasa, Ph.D. and Yogi Bhajan, Ph.D. A friend lent me the book when I mentioned interest in breathing techniques to reduce inflammation after reading this article: http://lifespa.com/how-vagus-nerve-tone-reduces-pain-and-inflammation/?utm_source=article&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=vagus&inf_contact_key=cf4ba40f90cedc2ba4adc9d342941ae2ed74769fb760f9c2ad18aa7ea6fab8ef (I find many articles of interest on the life spa site). I thought the additional information on recent studies of the vagus nerve here was also interesting enough to bookmark: http://thereleaseconnection.com/new-earth-physiology-activating-the-vagus-nerve/

Of course before I sat down to read I took some Knotweed tincture for a serious pain in my neck (which is already diminished enough for me to maybe do some yoga to work out the rest of the kinks). I actually made the tincture for a friend suffering inflammatory pain from a Lymes flare-up. Lots of folks struggling with Lymes swear by Knotweed tincture. I've read that unfiltered tincture of knotweed taken for long periods can mess with your liver, same as ibuprofen). I guess more research is being done, and for now you'll have to rely on your predilection toward whole food versus processed food remedies. Multiple permies I've talked with think Knotweed has become the invasive it has due to its necessity for healing the environment, one step in nature's succession plan for disturbed soil and humans.

I like the action of the turmeric with black pepper (16:1 ratio is sufficient) as an anti-inflammatory, especially because it tastes great and I can just cook with it. For the time being it is off limits for me due to its action as an emmenagogue. I guess Paul doesn't need to worry about that though.

I am most enthusiastic to learn more about stimulating the vagus nerve through breathing techniques; other anti-inflammatories are just for use until I get results from breathing techniques.

Hope find relief from your pain soon.
 
Posts: 88
Location: Door County, WI
8
fungi goat hunting solar trees woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm not a doctor, but as a lay person that's learned to recover quickly from injuries that most doctors insist will take a long time to heal, I recommend DMSO. Make sure your back is really really clean, but don't wash with soap. If possible, steam a few comfrey leaves and use em to cover the area, then remove leaves and pat dry with a clean towel. If your DMSO is 99.99% pure, water it down with distilled water to a roughly 70% DMSO solution. Pour on and around affected area (you'll probably find it more convenient for a certain special somebody to help you out on this) with a steady hand, and try to catch any that rolls off with your towel. Rub gently into the area, the compound will soak into your skin and dry quickly. You'll get a garlicky taste in your mouth, that's the sulfoxide permeating your existence. (Hehehe permie-ating).

Alternatively, I also reccomend cayenne and ginger balm for deep, sustained tissue and ligament damage. Warm baths, steam sauna, etc., will also help loosen those knotted muscles up. Here's a link on that DMSO, and there's also a section on essential oil of helichrysum that looks promising, but I've only ever read about using helichrysum in aromatherapy applications, so I can't speak to its validity. http://www.cancertutor.com/spine/
Lots of people have already mentioned turmeric and black pepper, but I'm mentioning it again. So... Yeah. Turmeric. Black pepper.
Feel better, big guy. We're pulling for ya.
 
Posts: 10
Location: Bali, Indonesia
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I suffer from similar issues from time to time and for the last 20 years have enlisted the FANTASTIC and REVOLUTIONARY help of a superb osteopath who has kept me active and got me up and running again when things were bad. They can also advise on stretches and preventative stuff as well as realigning things so the pinched bits get unpinched. Long term nerve damage can result if it isn't sorted out quickly and that's not fun. Yet, the medical professions have never once referred me to one of these guys or even alerted me to their existence. Years of going to my doctor, pain clinics, acupuncturists, hypnotherapy, steroid injections, physio, even the chiropractor, etc did little to help me and after just one visit to the osteopath I was walking tall for the first time in years. Worth a try I'd say!!!
 
Posts: 8
Location: Devon UK
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Get yourself a really good chiropractor to start, who will mobilise you. In other words, get you moving by careful assessment of your situation followed by manipulation. This may take a few weeks but patience is a virtue in these circumstances.
The natural reaction to vast pain, as in your case, is to lock out as this is the least painful option. Sadly, this is a bad move as your muscles stiffen & lock, and the process spirals into immobility leading to more pain & discomfort.
Take the guidance of a chiropractor professional and get mobile, then while you are improving, analyse how the problem has occurred. Decide whether you need to alter lifestyle and avoid trigger factors. These may include such contentious issues as carrying those extra pounds/kilos that you resolved to lose in your New Year resolutions. Sorry to be blunt, but excess weight is not good for the spine and certainly not in an already weakened anatomy.
Lastly, the use of oral analgesics such as paracetamol does help. If only to give the opportunity for a little respite from the discomfort. Some advocate adding ibuprofen to this as an anti inflammatory, and short term use can be very useful in these circumstances. A professional may already be advising you of this.
Hope you feel better soon.
 
Posts: 20
Location: Alberta,Canada US Hardy:3b Annual Precipitation: 15" Wind: 62mph Temperature:-45F to 86F
2
food preservation forest garden hugelkultur
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
STOP.

Please find the best chiropractor in your area. They are Doctors who specialize in the treatment of disorders of the neuromusculoskeletal system.

I have lived with back pain most of my adult life.

Chiropractors are the ONLY ones who have given me ANY relief.

An MD gives you drugs BUT does nothing for the underlying cause of the pain.

ALL of the other advice is great BUT get to the root of the problem FIRST.

I have been literally crippled by pinched nerves in the neck and lower back and had to have friends or family drive me to the chiropractor.
AND I have been able to get relief after treatment . Pain and swelling of the tissues takes a few days with anti-inflammatory drugs.
Sometimes 2 to 5 treatments then a maintenance routine once a month then only as needed .
I live almost pain free.

I even invited my chiropractor to my wedding, he is a fantastic fellow and is continually learning and taking courses to be the best he can be.

Best of luck, Get well soon.
 
Posts: 20
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Paul have yourself a standing desk? The best thing to do is have one that can go up and down. You want to be moving every 20 minutes from sitting to standing.
Sitting is the new smoking! http://fitness.mercola.com/sites/fitness/archive/2015/02/06/effects-prolonged-sitting.aspx

paul wheaton wrote:Tomorrow I go to a specialist. And my impression is that physical therapy will be a big part of it.

Yesterday we were at a hospital and they gave me a neck brace. That seems to be one of the smartest things I've had yet.

It has now been 8 days. And I think I got the most sleep today. I get the impression that this might be a few more weeks. I like the system where Sharla is nearby and when I'm awake for a few minutes I can talk to Sharla about what's going on and to be done.

I think we're all agreed that the cause is me working far too many hours for far too many years. In fact the first thing that the first doctor said was no computer for a week. I thought I might be able to sneak in a half an hour a day, but in the end I couldn't put any time each day. The most I've been able to do is a few minutes with my phone voice recognition stuff

I think I need to transition the way I do everything even when I'm all better. I think I should limit my computer time 2/6 hours a day. I like the idea that the rest of my day can be devoted to light carpentry possibly even passion I feel like never flushed out: art.

I used to devour many books in a day. And I rarely open a book anymore. I like the idea reading or. All of this while at the same time finding ways to expand the Empire in a higher velocity than what we have done in. I still feel strongly that it is important to tell hundreds of millions of people about permaculture. I'm plotting and scheming ways to do this while not wearing myself out.

I think the focus needs to be more about the permies community and less about the Paul Wheaton show.

 
Posts: 42
Location: Southern Oregon
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I am going through treatment for this condition right now. It's affecting my right side, which is my "computer arm", and the source of my problems.

I have two suggestions for you.

1. Get the book "Trigger Point Therapy Workbook". This book has changed my life, and the lives of many of my co-workers. It is truly a revolutionary concept, and that's coming form a die-hard skeptic.
http://www.amazon.com/Trigger-Point-Therapy-Workbook-Self-Treatment/dp/1572243759

2. Find someone who practices Active Release Therapy (ART). This is a modified approach to trigger points, using movement with pressure. It is painful, but I have seen improvements in my 4 sessions. Previously I was on rx painkillers and muscle relaxers, which did nothing to the source of the problems. I was schedule for an MRI and canceled it after getting results with ART. I now only have tingling and numbness down my right arm occasionally, as opposed to constant pain and weakness.

DON'T DO SURGERY. I know 4 people, including my dad, that went the surgery route and were never 100% again.

Truly hoping for the best for you!
 
Posts: 17
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
MAGNETS.... HAVE YOU GOT A GOOD STRONG MAGNET....

USE YOUR COMPASS TO IDENTIFY THE SIDE THAT *PULLS* THE NORTH POINTER OF THE MAGNET.... MARK THAT SIDE...

WHY BECAUSE THAT'S THE SIDE YOU WANT TO PUT AFJACENT ON THE CRAMOY AREA.....

IT CALMED THE SCREAMING PAIN WHEN I BROKE MY ARM...... I KEEP A SET BY MY BED FOR WHENEVER I'M AWAKENED BY FOOT/LEG CRAMPS...

AND START TAKING C EVERY 6 MINUTES FOR A WHILE (IF THE PAIN EXCEEDS YOUR PUNY MAGNET) TO GET THE HEALING ROLLING LONGER TERM,... WHY? BECAUSE EVEN THE STAGE IV CANCER PATIENTS IN CAMERON AND PAULING'S EARLY STUDY WHO CAME NEEDING MORPHINE WERE ABLE RETURN TO QUALITY OF LIFE AND FUNCTIONING WITH FAMILY AND FRIENDS.....

LOTS OF INTERMITTENT C AND A GOOD STRONG NORTH-POLE-MAGNET... KEEP THEM HANDY.....
 
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Paul and Jocelyn,
My dear friend Sandie has Lumbar Sacral Radiculoplexus Neuropathy which is very similar to what you are dealing with but it is in the lower extremities where yours is in the upper. She is in excruciating pain. I am so sorry that you are dealing with this awful condition.

I am actually very surprised that you got this diagnosis so early on, it seems Sandie went to doctors for what seemed like a year before they figured it out. Her condition apparently has a lifespan of 2 years so at least there is an end in sight for her.

Get a neurologist and physical therapist! I have asked her if you can speak to her, I think it would be very helpful.

Are you mega dosing on the turmeric w black pepper? Like 2 capsules 2-3 times a day? I got this super deal at the evil amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Turmeric-Curcumin-Complex-BioPerine-Bio-availability/dp/B00JA4TLTI/ref=pd_bia_nav_t_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=0BXM9W5JTSDKP66QMR5V

Sending much love from Bellingham,
Christy
 
gardener
Posts: 1504
Location: Virginia (zone 7)
347
books dog fish food preservation forest garden hugelkultur hunting solar trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I am sorry you are in such pain. I'm able to relate. I've been seeing a chiro since early Nov 3x/wk to start, now 1x/wk. He has helped but I finally got appt with MD who has put me on Prednisone and high doses of Ibuprofen. She says we need to get the inflammation under control asap then come back mid Feb for blood labs. Testing for RA, Lymes, etc. I have neck/mid-back/hip pain and notalgia (which the chiro had never heard of). An answer can't come soon enough. I'm sure you feel the same. I had been doing ginger,turmeric and blk pepper but stopped when put on DRUGS. I've also heard good results from using tart cherry juice(1C./daily). I'm going to try it. I've got 2 more days of Prednisone to go. I'm hoping my taste buds come back soon after stopping. Good luck to you. Come back soon - we need our plotter!
 
David Lam
Posts: 20
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Please LMK BEFORE doing ANY surgery. There is absolutely no need for it!!! If the alternative treatments havn't worked I can make some referrals. Have you at least done an IGG blood test to determine what foods are causing you inflammation? If Paul can't stand and read then he should do some audiobooks. I would highly recommend the "autoimmune solution" by Amy Meyers

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:Thanks so much for the links, Troy and Samantha!

We met with the doctor (he's a surgeon by trade) to review the MRI images and there is a definite bulge/rupture between C6 and C7. It seems that resolving that bulge sooner rather than later helps the nerves that are being impinged return to normal function more quickly and possibly more completely. Some times there is permanent nerve damage from disc impingement.

The surgeon said Paul's bulge is one of the easiest to resolve surgically. He half-heartedly (?) agreed that physical therapy and other methods, including time, are worth trying to see if the body will resorb the bulge, though he didn't think that was very likely. I would like to think this is a professional bias on the surgeon's part, and that Paul could resolve and resorb (is that the word the doctor kept using?) the bulge with less invasive methods than surgery. Though I do think the doc honestly felt he could rid Paul of pain much more quickly with surgery than other methods. The important thing is that Paul is interested in trying non-surgical methods first.

The doctor thought just 11 days in to this is not bad, as he often sees patients who have suffered for far longer periods, and incurred much more damage, before coming to him.

It will likely be weekly doctor visits, at the very least, to monitor Paul's nerve function, checking for potential nerve damage.

We are also definitely looking at physical therapy and other things to support the healing process with this. Which means even more appointments. Being 40 minutes from town means almost 1.5 hours round trip, plus the appointment(s) time, so it's the better part of half a day sucked up.

Let's see, this week included Monday, 2 hours at urgent care about midway in the 8-hour drive home; Wednesday/yesterday, over 2 hours at the ortho clinic plus the 1.5 hours drive time; today/Thursday, 45 minutes at the MRI, an hour at the ortho clinic, plus 3 hours in between and the 1.5 hours drive time.

I suppose we have been really lucky that we don't know what it's like to have sooo many health care appointments! My goodness!


 
Jim Tuttle
Posts: 42
Location: Southern Oregon
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
BTW, it's a FACT that chiropractic adjustments can reduce or eliminate bulges in the discs. Ask your surgeon, see how up to date he is on these publications-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8006533

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8169540

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9467101

The commonality in the 4 people I know with back surgeries: none had tried other treatments, they simply went on the doctor's recommendation. I think this is crazy. We have to be our own advocates, doctors are just as dogmatic as anyone else, and can be blinded by what they were told in school rather than looking solely at the evidence.
 
Posts: 44
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Gee, folks. I didn't real all the suggestions for Paul, but I'm a little shocked that so many permaculturists that believe that everything is connected didn't point out the obvious and that is Paul's weight. (I'm carrying an extra 15 pounds in my belly and have corresponding lower back pain, so I understand.) Just as the natural organic soil determines the health of the tree (not chemical fertilizers or pesticides), the same principle applies to Paul. His body is clearly not happy and he needs to change his diet.

Don Eggleston
 
Posts: 6
Location: Tennessee, Zone 6b
forest garden solar tiny house
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Paul and Jocelyn,
Sorry to hear about Paul's neck problems. I hope Physical therapy is helpful, in particular cervical traction has helped a number of my patients in the past. Only other suggestion I can offer that I haven't seen mentioned already is "bitterroot" which some friends in South dakota gave me years ago for a neck problem. Possible Bryant Redhawk would know what that might be botanically speaking. It was a thin, blackish root, that as advertised was very bitter, but it did an amazing job of relieving the pain in my neck. Wishing you a speedy recovery.
Caleb
 
Posts: 1
Location: Tacoma, United States
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think you should see an Osteopath. Here's an example of a D.O. where I live: http://injuryreversal.com/ (He has not updated his website since 2005, goes by patient referrals only) This Dr. has helped so many people with pain and prevented surgeries. He works with world class athletes. I, myself, was healed from severe back pain in one session by the Osteopathic therapy and I've seen other Drs., therapists, Chiropractors, Acupuncturists for the last 12 years. Patients come from all over. It is simply amazing. You could call his office to get a better understanding, his office person is full of info and a patient from way back who was able to prevent a scheduled back surgery due to this therapy.
 
Posts: 4
Location: Alaska
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I would like to suggest, if there is a chiropractor with a magnetic chair anywhere near by that it will reduce his pain significantly. The treatment consist of placing a magnetic padded rectangle behind him and generally two tennis racket shaped pads in front. The machine pulses and you feel the pulses in your body. My first experience was at the suggestion of a friend. I was utterly amazed at the difference in twenty minutes. I could not believe that no one had ever mentioned it in the past. It not only worked, it got better over the next five days!
 
Posts: 67
Location: Southeast Wisconsin, urban
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Holy posts!

Ok in the off chance Paul (or anyone) reads what I have to say...

"8 steps to a pain-free back" by ester gokhale is a must. It's a really cool book with lots of pictures of people in parts of the world that have this whole "posture" thing down. I really love looking at the pictures of straight backed Brazillian men. Also really love the ancestral spin she puts on it. Healthy posture=healthy back. She shows you how to sit in a chair on the computer with proper posture. As well as standing and sleeping and even walking. It's a pretty cool book.

Anywho, really hope you feel better Paul!
 
Posts: 17
Location: Zone 5a
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Healing
Quick start summary at end of post
It has been known for ages that the underlying cause of all dis-ease is imbalance.

The future of medicine, which is already here, is energy medicine.
The future of energy medicine, which is already here is The Body Code, developed by Dr. Bradley Nelson.

The Body Code is a brilliantly simple, brilliantly complete system of quickly identifying imbalances in the body, most of them energetic, and releasing them quickly and easily.

In 25 years of practice as a chiropractor and energy medicine specialist, Dr. Nelson has determined that the underlying cause of 80–90% of human pain is the disruptive, unbalancing energy of trapped emotions. A major component of The Body Code is The Emotion Code.

A few tidbits about Dr. Nelson that Paul may appreciate: Dr. Nelson was born and raised in Great Falls, Montana; on his way to becoming a chiropractor, he trained and worked in computer programming. The Body Code is a marriage of chiropractic, energy medicine, and computer programming.

Here is a fairly short video showing The Emotion Code system in action:
Emotion Code example by Dr. Nelson Bradley - YouTube [11:39]


Depression Hurts. The Emotion Code Can Help. - YouTube [1:00]



Following are links to an assortment of good webinar videos. Watch any or all of them to learn more about The Emotion Code and The Body Code:
Improve the Immune System with the Body Code and the Emotion Code - YouTube [1:18:05]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_7527zgZrY
Body Code and Emotional Code Self Healing. - YouTube [1:29:28]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8emHbjYUmk
Body Code (Emotion Code) Relieve Back Pain Webinar - YouTube [1:20:22]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8V4aseYUEk
Body Code and Emotion Code Knee Pain Webinar. - YouTube [1:26:10]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA_JrQnHoc8
Everything You Need to Know About the Heart Wall - YouTube [1:10:15]


Following are links to an assortment of interesting interviews with Dr. Bradley Nelson. Watch any or all of them to learn more about The Emotion Code and The Body Code:
Unblock the Power of Your Heart featuring Dr. Bradley Nelson - YouTube [1:12:26]

Dr. Bradley Nelson - How Your Trapped Emotions Are Causing Sickness & Disease - YouTube [1:26:30]

Beat Emotional Eating & Chronic Fatigue with the Emotion Code - YouTube [1:22:14]

Charlotte McGinnis discusses the Emotion Code with Dr. Bradley Nelson on 20 May 2012 - YouTube [1of2] [37:13]

Dr. Bradley Nelson showing the Emotion Code Technique 20 May 2012 - YouTube [2of2] [24:47]

Dr. Bradley Nelson Emotion Code Originator - YouTube [Julie Coraccio] [1:02:12]

The Body Code with Dr. Bradley Nelson - YouTube [Julie Coraccio] [56:07]



The following Web page explains The Body Code in detail. It includes a thumbnail of Dr. Nelson's history. Something that is not included there but was elsewhere (maybe in an interview) was that the alternative doctors whom his parents took him to when he was 13 were Osteopaths practicing manual medicine and that his kidney dis-ease was caused by a spinal subluxation that was impinging on the nerves to his kidneys.
Body Code | A New Breakthrough in Natural Healing
http://www.bodycodehealingsystem.com/

There are lots of resources on this Web page along with the link to sign up for a free introductory consultation:
Dr. Bradley Nelson
http://www.drbradleynelson.com/

Staff bios and descriptions of the types of sessions offered:
HealersLibrary.com | Services
http://www.healerslibrary.com/services/

Map-based listing of certified practitioners worldwide:
HealersLibrary.com | Global Practitioner Map
http://www.healerslibrary.com/global-practitioner-map/?_ga=1.186816424.1813115758.1448601382


Get the Starter Program for FREE!
http://www.healerslibrary.com/
Part way down the left side of this page is a place to sign up to get the Starter Program free:
* The Emotion Code eBook, 
* AudioBook (a set of 10 mp3 files of Dr. Nelson reading the entire The Emotion Code book), and 
* pdf files of the Chart of Emotions, Trapped Emotion Flowchart, and Heart-Wall Flowchart.
This will put you on Dr. Nelson's e-mail list and you'll be sent links to download the above-listed materials.

There are three levels to this system:
Level 1—The Emotion Code (the Starter Program, a portion of The Body Code)
Level 2—The Body Code (the all-encompassing system)
Level 3—T3 Therapy, aka Three Dimensional Therapy, Core Belief Therapy (a specialized technique for getting at a particular type of mental energy that tends to keep people deeply stuck that is now a portion of The Body Code)

Here are links about T3 Therapy:
An Introduction to T3 Therapy - YouTube [7:50]

Three Dimensional Therapy takes energy healing to a whole new level! [origination Web site]
http://www.threedimensionaltherapy.com/
Three Dimensional therapy / Interview with Gwen Legler and Leilani Alexander - YouTube


This video gives a glimpse into where this work will take humanity collectively:
HealersLibrary.com | Anne Horne’s Near Death Experience [10:40]
http://www.healerslibrary.com/news/anne-hornes-death-experience/


Quick Start Summary:
Request a free introductory Body Code consultation:
http://www.drbradleynelson.com/
Upper right corner of page.

Free Starter Program:
http://www.healerslibrary.com/
Part way down left side of page.
Receive The Emotion Code eBook, AudioBook, and Flowcharts all for free.

Due to the urgency of Paul's situation, my recommendation is:
Schedule a Distance Body Code Examination (30 mins)
http://www.healerslibrary.com/services/
This service is designed for those who are suffering from a major health problem or have experienced a serious decline in health. It is a complete evaluation of the body performed by proxy over the telephone with a Staff Practitioner, which includes testing for the presence of structural imbalances, low-grade pathogens, nutritional imbalances, toxins, all organ and gland circuits, trapped emotions, and the Heart-Wall. We will also determine how well your immune system is functioning, how well your brain is communicating with your organs and glands, and how well your heart is communicating with the rest of your body. Includes a complete written report of findings and recommendations for future care. This is the same examination used by Dr. Nelson for many years in practice as he worked with people suffering from mysterious and “incurable” illnesses. This is a 30 minute telephone appointment, and does NOT include any releasing or correcting of imbalances. (Regularly $297, Sale Price $237)
 
I got this tall by not having enough crisco in my diet as a kid. This ad looks like it had plenty of shortening:
2019 PDC for Scientists, Engineers, Educators and experienced Permies
https://permies.com/wiki/100059/PDC-Scientists-Engineers-Educators-experienced
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!