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so relieved!

 
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I know we don't all agree, that's OK and I don't really want to discuss that here

Just wanted to say I'm feeling relieved and hopeful about USA politics for the first time in four long years.....

...and a personal story, as I'm an older generation than many here...Nixon was part of the impetus for me hitching to the Ozarks and hiding out in the woods since the early seventies...one of those impulsive unplanned decisions that led to a happy life here in the mountains.

I've relaxed about politics for the most part until recently and this time caught myself daydreaming about where to go once again if there happen to be another four years like the last four.....

It's a beautiful, sunny warm day here in the Ozarks and I'm going to go back out to the garden now.

Yippeeeeee!!!
 
pollinator
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I am glad you are having a good day.  I hope you enjoy it.  

As someone of your generation, I have all my life had friends and family whom have escaped communism in various parts of the world.  For decades I have heard their personal stories.  For the past six months, I have been jarred by the similarities of their experiences shared and our own national politics.  I too am enjoying the wonderful weather and the beauty of autumn.  

I wish all here on Permies Peace, Security, and Safety.  Be well.
 
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I think we can start the process of working together as a country. I think it will be wonderful if we could actually have discussions about the merits of policy proposals in themselves, without wild accusations, conspiracies, "alternative facts", lies,  or demonizing the other side.  Obviously in communist dicatorships, that is not allowed. It has been very rare the last few years here in the USA.  As an athlete, I love to see and teach good sportsmanship to my kids and students.  I would love to see us adopt some of what we teach the children so that it would be used in adult political life.  

I would also like us to view middle class and working class people as valuable components of our society. Not as someone to be tricked or manipulated.  Let's make it so that they/we are actually getting a good deal, not just a bunch of PR so someone else gets what they want, and laugh at us all the way to the zillionaire's club.

John S
PDX OR
 
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I am actually more concerned after today's decision, which has been coming for the past few days. Not that I am a fan of the current President; I am concerned about the extreme socialist bent of the new administration and what it might mean for out country. We'll just have to see what unfolds...
 
Judith Browning
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I was hoping this could just be me being joyous and if someone had the urge they could give me a thumbs down or an apple core as I really don't mind

I was hoping it wouldn't end up with cores and stuff being thrown at anyone else in my thread though....it's just fine for our views to differ and there's lots of room in the 'politics' forum for new topics of discussion if anyone wants to start one?
 
pollinator
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I feel relief as well, partly that it's (for the most part) over and for what seems to be some continued functioning of a democratic process.  I'm not into party politics and the fact that the executive slot can go one way and the House can go another way, and the Senate another way still suggests that the system isn't totally broken yet.  By contrast, my wife this morning was recalling being in Chile in the early to mid-70s....was kind of going on memory so some of the recollection may have had some inaccuracies.  But she recalls after Pinochet's coup, there was some time later a "referendum" held......a vote for President whereby it was pretty clear to all around which person you were voting for....and the soldiers with guns at the polling booths might help you remember if you were having trouble deciding on a candidate (!).  Let's hope we can still at least have as good an election process as possible going forward.
 
pollinator
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Since I am not an American I personally do not give a flying fig who you guys vote in, but I do find the entire american political system highly amusing, It most reminds me of children arguing over sweets where the child with the most money/shouts loudest will end up winning.  And out of 328million people I do sometimes wonder if there really wasn't ANYONE else they could have selected.
 
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Somewhere here on Permies I said I was going to stay out of the politics forum for good. Funny how change can happen, so I'll peek my head in the door here since we're sharing thoughts and opinions and I can't help myself.

I too feel a sense of relief, perhaps even a little hope. What bothered me the most about the last four years was avarice allowing the wholesale deregulation of toxic agriculture chemicals. Carcinogen poisons that were once banned were put back on the market for example. Our poor earth, and the life that struggles just to go live a day and the long term consequences have yet to reveal themselves. I hope that people who care will be appointed, and departments such as the EPA for example, will put shackles on industry and their reckless and abusive use of poison. I hope so.

 
Jim Guinn
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Judith Browning wrote:I was hoping this could just be me being joyous and if someone had the urge they could give me a thumbs down or an apple core as I really don't mind

I was hoping it wouldn't end up with cores and stuff being thrown at anyone else in my thread though....it's just fine for our views to differ and there's lots of room in the 'politics' forum for new topics of discussion if anyone wants to start one?



Judith. I think you are being overly sensitive. Who is throwing "cores and stuff"? All I see are harmless differing views so far.  
 
Judith Browning
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Jim Guinn wrote:

Judith Browning wrote:I was hoping this could just be me being joyous and if someone had the urge they could give me a thumbs down or an apple core as I really don't mind

I was hoping it wouldn't end up with cores and stuff being thrown at anyone else in my thread though....it's just fine for our views to differ and there's lots of room in the 'politics' forum for new topics of discussion if anyone wants to start one?



Judith. I think you are being overly sensitive. Who is throwing "cores and stuff"? All I see are harmless differing views so far.



jim, it was your post I was defending....someone gave you an apple core and a thumbs down for a 'harmless differing view'

EDIT...now I see that the 'core' has been removed from your post....
 
Jim Guinn
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Judith Browning wrote:

Jim Guinn wrote:

Judith Browning wrote:I was hoping this could just be me being joyous and if someone had the urge they could give me a thumbs down or an apple core as I really don't mind

I was hoping it wouldn't end up with cores and stuff being thrown at anyone else in my thread though....it's just fine for our views to differ and there's lots of room in the 'politics' forum for new topics of discussion if anyone wants to start one?



Judith. I think you are being overly sensitive. Who is throwing "cores and stuff"? All I see are harmless differing views so far.



jim, it was your post I was defending....someone gave you an apple core and a thumbs down for a 'harmless differing view'



Then, my mistake, Judith.
 
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As someone who shares your border, but not your unique political system, I am genuinely relieved that you appear to have come to a conclusive decision and that so far it has not sparked major unrest.

My biggest hope is that *every American* will learn what a food forest is and how trees, shrubs, forbs, vines, mushrooms, insects, animals, microbes and dirt can *all* work cooperatively together to build something bigger than any of those things could do individually. You don't need to agree with your neighbor's politics to plant a tree guild with him/her. The other person doesn't have to be "wrong" for you to be "right" - pear tree vs apple tree - is one bad and the other good? Personally, I grow both!

So while you're all out there sharing your relief with the flowers and the birds, think about how we can grow peace?
 
pollinator
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i hear ya =)
the last few days have been intense, and that coming after the last few years.

i feel like i can finally decompress !

spent some time getting nostalgic in music, and thinking on the 90's some...basically along the lines of - we thought it was so bad then and what has happened since, only making all those issues so much worse...
i suppose it was something like...we couldnt even imagine worse than bush (1 or 2, same!) ha...ok...

but came back around to this little gem which has now become an oldie, perhaps you will enjoy it =)



 
Judith Browning
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Thanks Leila. really nice to hear from you!
I love Tracy Chapman and that one is a gem....

Sometimes the pendulum swings a little farther out to extremes doesn't it? and we just have to wait it out...I generally try to be somewhat apolitical but  the past four years have been just too painful to ignore.

So while you're all out there sharing your relief with the flowers and the birds, think about how we can grow peace?


Jay, yes, every day....peace, reversing climate change, renewable energy, basic health care for all....the list is long.  Mitigating climate change might be up at the top though as a warming planet with more and more severe weather events is going to make it more difficult for the poorest among us.

The nice thing about living in town now is that have neighbors we are able to share permaculture ideas with by example and carefully avoid politics and religion...just like here at permies

 
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Im gonna celebrate with a wish list.
Right now I'm wondering if a bill protecting individual privacy could make it through Congress in the next 4 years.
A lot of us feel like we have this right,  perhaps we can figure out how to put it into law.

My family came here as immigrants, refugees really.
They fled violent economic and political oppression to a place with way more opportunities, and they never left the USA.
Because of who they were they were accused of being criminals,  lazy,  and of taking other peoples jobs.
When they got here,  some thrived,  some faltered.
I'm hoping for a guest worker program that works,  one that includes a path to citizenship AND a vigorous patrolling of our borders.
If asylum is being exploited,  we should change the rules.
If asylum seekers are not showing up for their hearings, we can put them in electronic braclets, and release them to live with their relatives.

I would like healthcare to be viewed like roads, electricity,  literacy,  home ownership,  clean water, and clean air.
I see these as common goods worth pursuing , but how, how vigorously  or even if they really are good is up for debate.
I would like to see a commitment to improved health coverage as a common good, with a nation wide market for insurance , plans with fewer regulations but explicitly judged and evaluated, the government using it's buying power to negotiate drug prices, legally enforced  price transparency, and expedited certification  of foreign trained doctors.

That's plenty for now!
 
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I'm not American, but I have spent a bit of time there, and because I'm Canadian, I am greatly affected by American politics.  We share such a huge border, the majority of our trade, much of the media, and culture that so many in Canada were watching this drama unfold.  I was no fan of what happened in the last 4 years.  There was way too much uncertainty and too much shoot from the hip confrontational attitude toward others, so I am also relieved of those feelings, at least for now.   That obviously remains to be seen as to what the next administration does.  I don't see Biden as the best choice and clearly nearly half the country voted to keep him out for strong reasons but I don't share the views of those people.  I just hope that for the sake of the good people in the United States, a sense of unity can be fostered where division has reigned supreme.

I also just hope that those who have been led to believe that social reform in any way is something to fear, or that socially-oriented policy has anything whatsoever to do with Communism, come to a different understanding.  The fear of communism and socialism has tainted the minds of people who might otherwise embrace ideas that would create a more just and prosperous nation that brings people out of poverty and creates opportunities.  Social policies build society into inclusive robust forms that break up divisions and create communities.

William Bronson wrote:    

I would like healthcare to be viewed like roads, electricity,  literacy,  home ownership,  clean water, and clean air.
I see these as common goods worth pursuing , but how, how vigorously  or even if they really are good is up for debate.
I would like to see a commitment to improved health coverage as a common good, with a nation wide market for insurance , plans with fewer regulations but explicitly judged and evaluated, the government using it's buying power to negotiate drug prices, legally enforced  price transparency, and expedited certification  of foreign trained doctors.  

 It has been proven time and again by countries and places who have adopted social reforms for health care, that the burden that is relieved on the aveage taxpayer far exceeds the losses created by the system of care.

I hope that the example in Canada, though far from perfect, can shed some light on this.  

 
leila hamaya
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Roberto pokachinni wrote:That obviously remains to be seen as to what the next administration does.  I don't see Biden as the best choice and clearly nearly half the country voted to keep him out for strong reasons but I don't share the views of those people.  I just hope that for the sake of the good people in the United States, a sense of unity can be fostered where division has reigned supreme.

I also just hope that those who have been led to believe that social reform in any way is something to fear, or that socially-oriented policy has anything whatsoever to do with Communism, come to a different understanding.  The fear of communism and socialism has tainted the minds of people who might otherwise embrace ideas that would create a more just and prosperous nation that brings people out of poverty and creates opportunities.  Social policies build society into inclusive robust forms that break up divisions and create communities.



yeah its weird, i have never before wanted someone i didnt really like all that much to win as badly as this last time. !
although actually i have been paying attention, biden is growing on me somehow. i like kamala more, but...neither were who i wanted to run.
then again i see why the dems chose him, he is a centrist democrat, and more of the corporate democrat, also old school but in a good way, pro labor, pro unions, etc, fundamental democrat policy. he is rather square and normal, composed and level. much as none of that does anything for me personally, i can see why this is very appealing to the american people right now. i am way more interested in the progressive democrats.

totally agree with you on the whole communism/socialism points. the weird thing that...so much has changed, and all of those narratives that people seem to think are the only voices...well its not so much that way anymore, especially with the youth getting very politically motivated lately. so it's also weird...you even still have that narrative being so widespread...
the old school republicans with their parroting and twisting up this supposed "radical socialist agenda" to anything or anyone even remotely left of centrist policies. even the most left of our people in offices to me, is still very centrist, actually. i mean the progressives are really not suggesting anything radical, not even close to the level of what canada has done, even, which isnt really radical.

but yeah one weird thing is that the elections arent completely over, theres two key races that ended as "run offs", and the outcome decides the majority of the senate. its very important anyway...and those same issues...are going to be big for the next 2 months till the repeat election takes place in georgia in january. which is definitely a swing state, usually republican but occasionally turns "blue" and votes democrat. so the whole "radical socialist agenda" rhetoric thing is about to be on a repeat loop for a while from all the southern conservatives

the candidates there are interesting. one of them i really like he's very young and seems pretty cool. we will see how it turns out. but for the most part...it is done...just that 2 more months of election stuff for georgia senate seats.
 
Jack Edmondson
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Roberto pokachinni wrote:
I also just hope that those who have been led to believe that social reform in any way is something to fear, or that socially-oriented policy has anything whatsoever to do with Communism, come to a different understanding.



I have to respectfully disagree.  Give it whatever name you like... this is Communism:



Marx made it sound very equitable as well.  It is a wonderful idea.  Castro was a great salesman too.  Until he lined people up and shot them in the head.  

However, once personal sovereignty is removed and we go from each according to his abilities to each according to his need; there is no longer any restraint.  No check to the power.  (A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take everything you have.)  And no.  It won't be different this time. We were founded on Equality of opportunity.  Not equality of outcome.  We forget that at our peril.

If you doubt any of that listen to her directly.  She does not want it to stop.  It should not stop.  The rioting will continue until the Revolution is complete:

 
pollinator
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[quote=Jim Guinn]I am actually more concerned after today's decision, which has been coming for the past few days. Not that I am a fan of the current President; I am concerned about the extreme socialist bent of the new administration and what it might mean for out country. We'll just have to see what unfolds...[/quote]

Jim - As someone living in the UK and observing the US political system from the outside I, and many others outside of your country, find this fear of "socialism" really strange. The word itself seems to have taken on some demonic connotation in the US as something to be inherently feared, which seems very strange to us - especially as what you paint as "extreme socialism" is a very weak and mild form  compared to what most western democracies have had in place for fifty years or more.  

What is the actual problem with a political shift towards the left?

When you get away from the word "socialism" itself, you can look at it as a set of principles that can be acted upon.

Eg "I believe that a fair society is one where all people have access to good quality healthcare regardless of personal wealth"
Eg "I believe that a fair society is one where people who are unable to earn a living wage have their income supported"
Eg "I believe that all people should have equal opportunities"

When considering issues like this, I find that [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance]The Veil of Ignorance[/url] is a useful mental strategy to take. When considering a society, try to approach it as though you known nothing about your own statue within it. Imagine being born tomorrow into that society - you could be black, white, male, female, rich, poor, disabled, carrying a lifelong illness, born in a city or the country, be born to drug addicted parents etc...

Would you be happy being born into that society not knowing where you would end up?
 
Jim Guinn
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Hi Mike...Don't mistake "concern" for "fear". I don't fear Socialism; I don't want it in the USA. I don't believe it is a better system to attain the set of principles you list, by politicians and "machine" that promote the "ideal" of socialism, but, IMHO, want something much more extreme and darker.
 
John Suavecito
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Although it is often stated as if there is no difference, I don't believe it.  There are many here in the USA who see it as a form of trying to control the dialogue. If you use the magic word "socialism", everyone is supposed to step back and be afraid, then concede to you whatever preposterous claim you want to make.  The last 4 years have been fear driven policies, which appeal to the primitive parts of our brains.  Many social and otherwise media outlets prey on fears, which get big ratings, but trap people in negative thinking spirals.

People in the center clearly seem to be able to see the difference between Mussolini and John McCain, but people on the right can't seem to admit that there is a difference between Mao Tse Tung and Joe Biden.  Willfully pretending to not understand doesn't improve the discourse.  The end of this election means that corporate control of policy discussion is on its way out.  Most social media outlets won't let you talk about natural health, herbalists, preventing disease through healthful habits and patterns.   Many Republicans, like Ben Sasse, Lamar Alexander, and the late William F. Buckley were easily able to have a calm discussion about policies and the impacts that they will have, without name-calling and dog whistling.  It wasn't driven be fear, but by understanding.   I come from a state that was dominated by moderate Republicans for 100 years.  It's too bad that the party has banished them.  Our country would be best served by calm discussions about policies and experiments to see what would work best.

JohN S
PDX OR
 
Roberto pokachinni
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Jack Edmondson wrote:

However, once personal sovereignty is removed and we go from each according to his abilities to each according to his need; there is no longer any restraint.  No check to the power.  (A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take everything you have.)  And no.  It won't be different this time. We were founded on Equality of opportunity.  Not equality of outcome.  We forget that at our peril.

If you doubt any of that listen to her directly.  She does not want it to stop.  It should not stop.  The rioting will continue until the Revolution is complete:

 I appreciate you trying to make your point understood by me, but you chose to cut to the end of that Colbert/Harris discussion in your second youtube clip.  Taken out of context, that could mean a lot of different things.  The revolution she is talking about is not one of socialism or communism, and certainly not the more fascist froms that it can take that you refer or allude to as examples of where this movement is heading.  She is talking about the Black Lives Matter protests and the clip was from June.  Here's more of the discussion with context:
, It's about seeking justice for all.  Your country was founded on that too, but, like equality of opportunity, the government has utterly failed to make these pillars of a reasonable society a priority (and Canada isn't much better in spite of having better social policies because the same forces which benefit from the status quo of inequality of opportunity, and inequality of justice are present here).   Here is a quote of Harris, in context in that clip:  

The greatest movements that have, that we have seen in recent history in our country but probably since the beginning have been born out of protest. Have been born out of the power of the people to take to the streets and force their government to become, to address, what is wrong: the inequities, the inequality, the unfairness, but also the conscience of the government is it's people to force the government to be true to the idaels that we say we hold dear.  And almost everyone of those marches have been about one fundemental ideal in our country which is equal justice under law.



Also, the vast majority of the protests and protestors were not riots, they were peaceful.  She is taking about protest (and not riots) continuing.  And the right to protest and to protest government is a right (and some might say a responsibility) in the U.S. as well.  
 
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There may be reasons to not jump to conclusions that fast … strange things are going on with the election.
 
leila hamaya
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well there's a bunch of things i am tempted to say, surprisingly i am still in the mood to talk about politics even after the last few weeks...

.... i feel like there is some potential here for us all....things are shaken up so much right now it does seem there's some of that crisis = opportunity thing to jump onto...i have some things to say, and i am willing to listen....

but maybe not here =) right now...

so instead i give you some laughs maybe. here is a visual graph to show you where we are at --->


and also our Canadian friends might find this funny --->
Canadian border opens express U-turn lanes for fleeing Americans
 
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. We were founded on Equality of opportunity.  Not equality of outcome.  We forget that at our peril.



Earth care
People care
Return the surplus

That's it. That's permaculture.
And that is equality of outcome.
 
Judith Browning
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. We were founded on Equality of opportunity.  Not equality of outcome.  We forget that at our peril.



Rus Williams wrote:

Earth care
People care
Return the surplus

That's it. That's permaculture.
And that is equality of outcome.



Excellent reminder...thank you Rus
 
pollinator
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I suspect that we are some number of weeks from knowing the outcome of this election for certain.

I'll join the chorus for hope that the apocalyptic fervor of this cultural moment is making more minds amenable to the natural beauty of increased personal and regional resilience and sustainability.
 
Michael Cox
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Thank you to who ever deleted my previous post - on reflection it broke the "be nice" rule by suggesting some permies members were less than perfect. Oops.

My concern is that some of the discussion I have seen has been based around the belief that some kind of massive voter fraud has been perpetrated. This idea has been pushed by Trump repeatedly, but based on what has been reported over here there is simply no evidence to support the majority of the claims, and where there is evidence it has been misrepresented.

(Case in point; there was apparently some issue over dead people voting. So far I have seen an isolated issue of one individual who legitimately sent in a postal vote ahead of time, and died before their vote was counted. The discussion I saw of it was trying to whip up some frenzy of massive voter fraud. Um. No. Sorry. That's not fraud. It's also not significant enough to sway the vote.)

The problem I see is that the discussion has become so muddied by the doubt that - even if every accusation is disproved - the faith in the democratic system has been damaged.
 
Jim Guinn
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You are right about a lot of talk about voter fraud. If there was, let's see what real evidence is provided by Trump's legal team. It will take some time for them to put together their case(s), and time will tell.

Besides fraud, there is also the Constitutionality of how some States conducted their elections. As per the US Constitution, it is the State Legislature who determines how an election will be conducted within a State (even Federal elections), and only the State Legislature. Here in Pennsylvania, Governor Tom Wolfe went to the State Legislature to try and get them to make certain decisions about mail in ballots. (i.e. Post Marked by Nov 3 but could be received and counted until Nov 8th. Ballots without post marks or blurred post marks to be allowed.) He failed in his attempt. The State Legislature said No. He then went to the PA Supreme Court, which by divided vote accepted the substance of what Gov. Wolfe was doing and added some of their own conditions. That was utterly unconstitutional! The Governor of a state and a State's Supreme Court do not have the authority to determine how a State's election is held. Only the Legislature can according to the Constitution of the United States. US Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito has now intervened, as is his right, and ordered the State of PA to segregate ALL votes that came in after 8pm on election night, November 3rd...which is the date set by the State Legislature, the body which has the Constitutional right to set the rules of the states election. This now calls into question whether or not all the votes received after 8 pm on November 3rd (with postmarks, no post marks, blurred postmarks) can be allowed. To even have counted these votes may be a crime under State and Federal Law.

I believe the GOP is investigating cases like this as well, not just "voter fraud".

Irregularities and possible Constitutional violations must be looked into for the sake of our election integrity...no matter who one's candidate of choice is. This is not a matter of cheerleading for a particular candidate. This is a matter of a fair and legal election. Will Donald Trump gains votes, even enough to flip what seems like the results up until now? Who knows! It could very well be that he doesn't. That is not the point! The point is that if "appearance of improprieties", or perhaps even illegal activities, is not investigated and resolved, how can America have faith in our electoral process? This is much more important than whoever is sworn in as the 46th President of the United States.

BTW...while the media Networks "project" and "call" the election, it is only when all legal claims have been resolved and the Electoral College meets that the next President is officially declared, not before. Many would have us believe differently.

No matter who you want to be President, failure to do this only hurts our country further.


 
Michael Cox
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I'm not at all up to speed on the constitutional issues, so I won't comment on that.

I think it is reasonable to comment on the Trump administrations intentional undermining of the postal service ahead of an election that was going to depend heavily on postal voting due to covid. At the time it stank to high heaven, as a way to disenfranchise voters. The administration clearly predicted that postal votes would not fall in their favour and are doing everything possible to discredit them.
 
pollinator
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I still find it amusing that Americans believe we have a democracy when we most assuredly have an oligarchy.

I am very happy Trump wasn't reelected but I live in Wyoming so my vote really matters 0% here.

I personally think we need universal health care and more love for people. America seems to be increasingly selfish and it makes me sad.
 
Judith Browning
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I really appreciate everyone's thoughts here.  Some I relate to and some I do not although I did try harder to understand the views I don't necessarily agree with.
I found the last four years exhausting....and I realize others might have felt that way about the previous eight?

I'm aware things are not going to be smooth going for a long time if ever in the US and how this country's politics must look to other countries.

We all have different journeys and experiences, geographical and social constraints that add up to who we are or who we think we are as the case may be

I like the thought of actually discussing issues as several in this thread have been doing.
I'm really tired of put down memes and sound bites and sarcasm and stereotypes coming from social media sites.

I like thinking about the Green Party Platform and Permaculture Ethics...both hang on to broader concepts and solutions for world peace....that makes me happy
green party key values (explained in link)
https://www.gp.org/ten_key_values





 
pollinator
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For best results, turn your volume up.

 
elle sagenev
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Honestly, while I'm relieved Trump is out I'm not excited about Biden. I just feel like American politics is like, "Here, try to pick the least bad candidate." WHY! These two old white guys are all we had to offer? Really? Anyway, I had to completely cut out all news sources the last several months because I  was getting upset. I even deleted Facebook off my phone and let me tell ya, it's made a difference to my mental heatlh!
 
master pollinator
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Judith Browning wrote:I really appreciate everyone's thoughts here.  Some I relate to and some I do not although I did try harder to understand the views I don't necessarily agree with.
I found the last four years exhausting....and I realize others felt that way about the previous eight?



I just want to say BRAVO to you for posting that.  I try to stay out of these discussions, but I will sometimes read them.  I love it when people take your attitude towards the discussions, and I really despise it when someone gives a post like Sebastion's a thumb's down for simply asking that people not jump to conclusions.  I'm hoping for a day when people are free to have an opinion, even if it is contrary, without having it shouted down by any other group.  

 
Jay Angler
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@ Mark Reed - OT - I find it totally ironic that you've posted a song about US Democracy written by a Canadian. Leonard Cohen was brilliant - may he rest in peace and may his songs live forever!
 
Mark Reed
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Jay Angler wrote:@ Mark Reed - OT - I find it totally ironic that you've posted a song about US Democracy written by a Canadian. Leonard Cohen was brilliant - may he rest in peace and may his songs live forever!


Yea, I Know and also maybe ironic that the US isn't really supposed to be a democracy but I like the sound of it anyway. In truth, Cohen's "The Future" or "Everybody Knows" might actually be more appropriate to the situation, I was just trying to stay a little more positive.
 
Doody calls. I would really rather that it didn't. Comfort me wise and sterile tiny ad:
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