Pastry made by Boiling Water

I don't know the name of this kind of pastry.

I saw a TV Show called "Mary Makes it Easy" where she was showing how to make pastry.  It looked easy.

Pastry:

3/4 cup (168 grams) unsalted butter

3/4 cup (180 milliliters) water

2 3/4 cups (370 grams) all-purpose flour, plus more for dusting

1 teaspoon kosher salt

Meanwhile, make the pastry by combining the butter and water in a large saucepan. Bring to a boil and melt the butter. Remove from the heat and add the flour and salt. Stir to bring together and turn out onto a lightly floured surface. When cool enough to handle, knead the dough until very smooth and a little elastic. Wrap in plastic and set aside to rest for 30 minutes.

https://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/steak-and-stout-pie-12342970


I want to try this.

Has anyone made this kind of pastry?

Wrong link ? it bring me to a meat pie..

Raphaël Blais wrote:Wrong link ? it bring me to a meat pie..

It's part of the meat pie.

I've made a bit of pastry this way.  It's awesome for meat pies and was very common in England from before the middle ages until the 1900s.  It still is used in many traditional regional dishes.  

Here are some I made a few years ago.  



https://permies.com/t/48324/kitchen/Meat-Pies

The advantage of this is that the pastry can stand on its own and doesn't need anything to hold it up like a pie tin.  It also keeps a long time.  In medieval times, the pastry wasn't always eaten with the filling but dried and ground to a dust that would thicken pottages at a later date.  Personally, I think a lot of the reason for this was the lack of salt used in pre-victorian pastry recipes.  Add some salt to the mix and it's amazing!

Most traditions use lard for this pastry and it's by far my favourite flavour.  I find butter to be quite rich for this, but it does taste good with sweet fillings.  But use what you've got.

These days, I also tend to rub the room temp fat into the flour and salt, then add the boiling water.  I just find this easier than melting the fat.  But you do you.  There aren't really any wrong ways to do this.  

The word for this pastry my grandmother would know is 'coffin' pastry.  I always meant to look up why.  

And now I'm going to be on the look out for a giant pork shoulder this holiday season so I can make a tonne of the little pork pies for the freezer.  They are perfect for reheating in a hurry or if the power goes out they keep for about 4 days at (a cool) room temp.  

Thank you, R!

Now that I have a name for this pastry, I did ask Mr. Google:

atlasobscura said, "A coffin, spelled coffyn in 12th-century English, referred to self-standing pastry made from flour, water, and sometimes fat. Like a sort of medieval Tupperware, coffins preserved the foods they contained and were rarely eaten.

eater said, "What was the first pie flavor?

The written record tells us that food was baked in dough in Ancient Greece, and according to the American Pie Council, the first recipe for pie, "a rye-crusted goat cheese and honey pie," was published by the Romans.

Wikipedia said, "Huff paste is a cooking technique involving making a stiff pie shell (or coffyn) using a mixture of flour, suet, and boiling water. The pastry when cooked creates a tough protective layer around the food inside. When cooked, the pastry is generally discarded as it is virtually inedible. However, the shell becomes soaked with the meat juices and historically was sometimes eaten by house servants after the meal had concluded.

Huff paste's main purpose is simply to create a solid container for the pie's ingredients. The flour itself is stronger than normal flour, often made from coarsely ground rye, and suet, which is mixed with hot water to create what was an early form of hot water crust pastry.

Huff paste can be moulded into a variety of shapes, called coffyns or coffers, similar to a Cornish pasty. A benefit of these early pies was that meat could be preserved for several months and the food contained within was protected from contamination. It also allowed food to be preserved so that country dwellers could send it over long distances as gifts to their friends in other towns or areas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huff_paste

After reading about this pastry, I am not sure that I want to use it for what I was going to do.

Since it absorbs the meat juices it sounds like this pastry is indeed best for meat pies.

It reminds me of the crust on some pecan pies my dad would buy at the grocery store since that crust was unappealing.

At least it was fun learning about this pastry.

I have so far been unable to talk dear hubby into trying meat pies though I like your idea about making some little pies for the freezer.  That way I could have them for lunch.

Coincidences are marvellous, aren’t they.

I literally just googled the differences between making dough with boiling vrs cold water. I’m making Chinese boiled dumplings for dinner.

Boiling water denatures some of the gluten in the flour. This makes it less elastic, so easier to roll out and less prone to springing back. It needs less kneeling to be ready to use.

Cold water dough needs lots more kneeding, and an extensive rest time to let the gluten relax.

I suspect that the differences are similar to what you are discussing here.

 I do wonder if these crusts were all that unpleasant to eat.
Just as likely,  they were too dirty to eat, as they served as packaging.
Mind you I am a clean your plate kind of guy who will eat the garnish(I paid for it!)

Anyway, oven safe  biodegradable packaging is nothing to sneeze at.
The ingredients sounds a great deal better than food  made with hydrogenated oils.

William Bronson wrote:  The ingredients sounds a great deal better than food  made with hydrogenated oils.

The ingredients and the ease of making were what appealed to me.

What I was going to make was something with pears.

I could not find my favorite "Essie's Cobbler" recipe and don't trust the ones on the internet to be the same ingredients.

I figured that my other recipe box with all my favorite recipes must be buried in the barn under all our daughter's stuff.

When I got the pears out they (pears) are all over-ripe and like mush so that is the end of the cobbler/pastry...

I will probably slice and dehydrate the pears.

I often wonder if pocket pies would be wrapped in a bit of cloth or paper before being stuffed in the pocket so the crust wouldn't get too dirty.  If the crust wasn't eaten that day, it would be saved and added to other dishes as most people in England at that time couldn't afford to waste flour or fats.  

William Bronson wrote:  I do wonder if these crusts were all that unpleasant to eat.
Just as likely,  they were too dirty to eat, as they served as packaging.
Mind you I am a clean your plate kind of guy who will eat the garnish(I paid for it!)

William, are we twins separated at birth?

I use warm water or hot water mixed with cold milk when I'm making tortillas and some types of biscuits...basically any dough where I start off with solid fat like butter, tallow or coconut oil cut into the dry ingredients. The warm liquid softens the fat and makes for a better mixture, especially in the part of the year when the kitchen's not all that warm..

I think some apple pies and minced meat pies would taste awesome in a well-salted boiled crust.  

Another thing we see in some historical texts is that they would use this crust for boiled pies/puddings.  Like a pot pie, the filling is wrapped in a crust, then the crust is wrapped in a cloth and it's boiled in the pot for a few hours to cook.  It comes out really different.  Not sure if it agrees with my modern tastes, but I also think the water used to boil it in the past would be more likely a broth from what was cooked before so it would impart more flavour to the pastry part.

There is one food my mother made this way, a kind of cornbread we called corn dodgers.
They were crunchy salty pan fried corn cakes, and the first time I tried to make them from memory,  they cane out raw.
After talking to mom, I learned that the rough cornmeal we used for the batter/dough needed  to be pre-cooked by mixing it with boiling water.

Historic pies and puddings seem as catch all as soups and stews are now.
The grains and the flour that came from them were more storeable and tradable than other foods.
I think this led to them being used differently.
There were surpluses, so they could be used as a material as well as a food.


I'm trying to eat more animal fat and fewer simple carbs.
Pastry that is made of whole grains , tallow and hot water might fit that bill.
A pie crust  like this, filled with mushrooms and onions sounds delightful.

Thanks a million! I have no electricity on my farm, so always on the lookout for foods that can be kept at room temperature.

But if you think how an enormous amount of labor went into sowing, harvesting, trashing and grinding grain - not to talk about making butter or raising a fat pig - I believe every morsel was eaten

I would call this sort of pie a 'raised pie'. You will get all sorts of meat pie recipes if you use that as a search term. Traditionally (and still) used for pork pies to eat cold (yummy).

i am really good at making flaky tasty pastry whereby the fat is incorporated to the flour in a variety of ways and cold liquid to pull it together. This pastry is just about the exact opposite and intrigues me. The photos are gorgeous and bringing on my hunger! I love the idea that they are free standing little 'coffins'. I'll try a veggie type filling.

On the "Great British Baking Show", it was called 'Hot Water Crust Pastry' and it is used mostly to make meat pies.   The show aired on PBS which is how I watched it. It is easy to make and I had never tried a hot water crust pastry until I watched the show with Paul Hollywood and Mary Barry.  I had typically made pie crusts that were made with all the ingredients super cold so the crust would be very flakey.  No kneading. Kneading makes a pie pastry dough tough.  You don't knead or rest a hot water crust pastry.  It makes a very delicious crust that will stand up to meat and juicy fillings.   It is a very British thing, when my husband travels to Great Britain for work, he loves to get the meat pies like a Guiness steak and kidney pie.  

The Great British Baking Show was very comforting to watch. It was a contest, but the winner just got a bouquet and a crystal trophy. No huge monetary awards although many of the winners would go on to make some extra money with a cookbook deal.  The contestants often helped each other if they were having trouble and they all had regular jobs and baking was something they loved to do.  At the end of each season Paul and Mary would have a masterclass show that would go into how to make many of the baked goods that were in the contest.  Everything from Hot water crust pastry to pretzels and bagels to cakes of all types and cookies.  

I also know this as hot water crust pastry and it is about the only kind of pastry I have made successfully, and I'm hopeless at almost all other kinds of dough based cookery (my baked WMD's - weapons of mandibular debilitation - would be better known had I not got the good sense to know when I'm beaten and give up)!  That said, my success with hot water crust might be motivated by thoughts of the minced spiced pork and jelly on the inside which makes the delightful cold pork pies that are a speciality of the Melton Mowbray area of Leicestershire in England.  I have also experienced it used for many other game type pies around the UK, mostly served cold.

A tip though.  Whatever you do, do not attempt to warm up a hot water crust pastry pork pie in order to eat it.  It is not designed for this and will not be a pleasant experience, or at least not nearly as pleasant as eating it cold.

I also have only made this pastry with lard as the fat.  I may have to experiment with using butter for sweet pies... perhaps a creamy chicken an vegetable pie...mmmmm.

Anyway, thank you for this thread which has served to remind me that it has become my duty to produce a couple of large pork pies for Christmas.  Better get to it!

In this video, they called it something like 'hand formed' pastery

Interesting, lard AND butter...  Entertaining but I think using a recipe at least for the general method might lead to better results!  I'd better get planning my pies... sadly I'll have to skip the fennel as I appear to be the only one in my household who is a fan of fennel with pork, so to include it would not be in the seasonal spirit of generosity!  Probably stick with sage, salt and pepper (but maybe I'll make a dinky one with fennel and cider jelly for the sake of science...)

As Michael mentioned, chinese dumplings are often made with a hot water pastry rolled very thin. The dumplings also feature in Japanese and Korean cooking.

I also use the same pastry to make pancakes for Peking duck. I cheat and reheat the duck wrapped in tin foil and then shred the meat. Have to forgo the crispy skin when heated in foil but the meat stays moist.

Two discs of dough are flattened and sandwiched together with sesame oil brushed between them then rolled out thinly. The are cooked in a cast iron pan lighy brushed with oil and they puff up as they cook.

The pancakes are split at the table.

If the pastry is rolled a little thicker, they can be used to make egg and garlic chive pasties.

Hot water pastry is a very versatile pastry that crosses over many cultures🥰

I think for Scotch Pies, it's the cold water version. It's done very thin and CAN be heated up. The filling is heavily spiced minced mutton. Might be lard or tallow (sheep fat) in the pastry but not butter. Cooked only till very pale.

Damn I miss them.
(I'm Scottish, grew up there for 22 years)

You might find some Midwest version as friends visiting there remarked on the very Scottish style food they found

Any pie can be made with the kind of dough that an individual wants to use.  The pie might not perform as well as the traditional pie.

This recipe uses the hot water method for Scotch Pie:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/scotch_pies_92297


From the picture, the pastry looks like the pie is the right kind for the hot water crust.

William Bronson wrote:  I do wonder if these crusts were all that unpleasant to eat.
Just as likely,  they were too dirty to eat, as they served as packaging.
Mind you I am a clean your plate kind of guy who will eat the garnish(I paid for it!)
...

I am that kind (of girl in this case) too, who eats everything on the plate. Especially the 'garnish', which might be the best part (lettuce leaves, cucumber and tomato). And that's the way I was educated by my parents: when something edible fell on the floor (even outdoors!) my dad's opinion was: eat it, those germs are good for your health ('immune system' we would say now). And if we did not want to eat it, he (my dad) ate it!

Not so long ago I read a recipe for a Cornish pasty. The story was that the miners took it with them as their lunch (down below in the mine), and that there was a special broad part at the crust to hold it with their dirty hand. So that meant most of the crust was eaten. But that was a different dough then in this thread.

Interesting, never heard of this kind of pie. When I read boiling water I had to think of  German "Brandteig" which is a dough which is actually cooked in the pot after combining the ingredients. I am sure there is an English word for it.
I mostly know of sweet pastry done with this dough, like churros or éclairs/profiteroles. Looks like it is called choux dough?
To me it looks a bit complicated although I am always trying out new recipes. But as I don't have a pastry bag to shape them I couldn't really make any of these.

Anita Martin wrote:Interesting, never heard of this kind of pie. When I read boiling water I had to think of  German "Brandteig" which is a dough which is actually cooked in the pot after combining the ingredients. I am sure there is an English word for it.
I mostly know of sweet pastry done with this dough, like churros or éclairs/profiteroles. Looks like it is called choux dough?
To me it looks a bit complicated although I am always trying out new recipes. But as I don't have a pastry bag to shape them I couldn't really make any of these.

I know what you mean. I did make such dough in the past (long ago) to bake such puffed-up things we call 'soesjes' in Dutch (small balls with an air-pocket inside, that's later filled with cream). But that is not the pie-dough meant in this thread, That doesn't puff up (trap air inside the dough when baked).

You are right, Inge, I already figured out it can't be the same dough: "Windbeutel" (those cream-filled puffs) are light and airy, and this pie crust seems to be rather the opposite, haha!

Since I didn't make the pastry, I really don't know though this sounds like a really stiff crust that does not flake or crumble.

A crust that is really durable. One that can be carried around.

The Chinese Dumpling Wrapper recipe that I saw did not have butter (or lard) as an ingredient.

I have looked at a lot of dough recipes out of curiosity and each one in its own way is different.  Some have eggs and some have milk in addition to the usual flour, water, and lard or butter.

I found one that I am interested in making on Alton Brown's website.  That is for another story, though so as not to confuse this thread.

Thanks Anne for starting this thread. I remembered it when I was wondering how best to use the fat rendered from the beef bones when making bone jelly for the dogs. I've clarified some of it and it's been cluttering up my fridge a bit looking for a use. I was thinking of soap, but eating it sounds a better use, so I had a go with making hot water pastry.
The recipe I used was really simple to do and came out well for a first attempt: 5 Oz lard (my rendered fat), with 1/2 pint milk/water bring to a boil and stir slowly into 1lb (16Oz) plain flour with 2 teaspoons salt added. Knead for a few minutes till smooth. Then roll out 2/3 of dough and press into a tin (I used a loaf tin) chill for 1/2 hour before filling and applying the top. I tried glazing with a little milk (I'd used all my egg in the filling) but it didn't really give much of a gloss. Bake in very hot oven for 1/2 hour then cover and continue baking in moderate oven for 1 1/2 hours (depending on filling). I made two pies, since it turned out I had more filling than would fit in one pie. The first was sausage bacon and egg pie, with leeks, sweet pepper and a little tomato, the second (I ran out of egg) was the same but with cheese and sour cream rather than egg.