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Kakishibu (persimmon tannin liquid)

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posted 11 years ago

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I'm looking for some information about fermenting and aging green persimmon juice. Has anyone had success with this process who's willing to share? I'll mill and press the fruit to get the juice, but I'd like some more info about how to ferment and age before bottling. I assume open vat with wild yeast fermentation. Stir occasionally. At some point decant, then age open or closed for a couple of years? I'm accustomed to fermenting for alcohol, but haven't tried an open ferment yet. I'm thinking I'd like to give this a go next year, perhaps even trying the same process with black walnut. Any opinions?

Steven Feil

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posted 11 years ago

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Checking with my fermentation expert.....

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John Suavecito

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posted 10 years ago

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Sounds sour and astringent. Is it a traditional Japanese recipe?
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Steven Feil

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My fermentation expert has never heard of this.

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John Suavecito

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posted 10 years ago

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I heard they just invented this thing called Google.

I don't know a lot of Japanese, but Kaki is the botanical name for the Asian persimmon. Also the name in many languages.
John S
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Brand mark What is Persimmon Tannin Juice (Kaki-shibu)?

Astringency of Persimmon

In Japan, dark-orange persimmon fruits on trees set against the backdrop of a clear blue autumn sky is a common sight. There are about one thousands kinds of persimmon in Japan. These varieties are roughly divided into sweet persimmons and astringent persimmons. Sweet persimmons are consumed as edible fruits, and astringent persimmons are used to make persimmon tannin juice, or kaki-shibu.

It is not easy to distinguish whether a fruit of persimmon is sweet or astringent from its appearance. The reason persimmons can be astringent is because of soluble tannin contained in fruits. As the tannin coagulates the viscous protein on the surface of our tongues, we feel its astringency.

Fuyu gaki

Persimmon Tannin Juice (Kaki-shibu)

Good persimmon tannin juice contains plenty of tannin. In middle to late August, green fruit containing abundant tannin is harvested, and juiced. The varieties of persimmon containing great amounts of tannin are used, such as Ten'nou, Tsurunoko, and Hourenbou. Unripe fruits are crushed and juiced to produce persimmon tannin juice.

Green persimmons

The Color, Shape, Smell, and Taste of Persimmon Juice

You may think the color of persimmon juice looks like the dark orange color of persimmon fruits, but in fact, it is dark brown, almost black. Persimmon tannin is usually liquid. Since it is a fermented product, special care must be taken to keep it at an the appropriate temperature. It has a strong tart smell. While it may be a little difficult to describe the unique taste of tannin, suffice it to say that it makes your tongue feel like it's being squeezed.

Persimmon tannin

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Judith Browning

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posted 9 years ago

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everything I'm interested in comes back to permies

I've been reading about Kakishibui and when I 'googled' for more information the fifth entry down was linked to this topic ....as far as I understand it is not a drink but a liquid to use as a preservative for cloth, paper and wood. We love persimmons so much I'm not sure I would want to pick any green and lose the sweet fruit in the fall. If we had a tree that didn't produce good fruit though, I would be especially interested in experimenting.

http://kakishibui.com/
"Japanese artists and craftsmen use kakishibu on wood, washi and textiles. For textiles, cellulose Palette of kakishibufibers are well suited to kakishibu, especially bast fibers. However, it is also satisfactory on silk and even some synthetics and synthetic blends. Yarn can be dyed and woven, knit or crocheted. Cloth can be dyed by immersion dipping, or surface designs can be created by brushing. Katazome (stencil patterning), tsutsugaki (paste resist drawn with cones), shibori and other techniques are well suited surface design options.
Japanese craftsmen are producing clothing for chemically sensitive skin. Builders are utilizing kakishibu as an interior wood finish to combat sick house and dyers are embracing kakishibu for its beauty and user friendliness..."

a site explaining the process..... http://www.kakishibu-club.com/english/making_process.html

and a video...

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Henry Jabel

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posted 8 years ago

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tEtKtio5go

A very good run down on persimmons in Japan however I remember it mainly because it mentions Kakishibu at around 12:00 and it being used for protecting iron at the end. Seems like really amazing stuff. Maybe you could make it with American Permsimmon but I think the ones in Japan use very high tannin persimmon varieties to get some of the those interesting properties.

tel jetson

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posted 8 years ago

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I've got five gallons in my basement. could probably spare a bit if somebody is really interested.

it's made with shibugaki, bitter persimmon (as opposed to kakishibu, persimmon bitters). same species, but different varieties than edible persimmons. believe it or not, even unripe edible persimmons don't have nearly the tannin content that shibugaki varieties do. the sugar content may be different, as well, though I'm not sure about that.

other varieties might work fine, but probably aren't ideal.

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Judith Browning

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Location: Ozarks zone 7 alluvial, clay/loam with few rocks 50" yearly rain

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posted 8 years ago

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tel jetson wrote:I've got five gallons in my basement. could probably spare a bit if somebody is really interested.

it's made with shibugaki, bitter persimmon (as opposed to kakishibu, persimmon bitters). same species, but different varieties than edible persimmons. believe it or not, even unripe edible persimmons don't have nearly the tannin content that shibugaki varieties do. the sugar content may be different, as well, though I'm not sure about that.

other varieties might work fine, but probably aren't ideal.

I'm curious....what are you planning to do with five gallons?
Do you think it's possible to ship a half pint or so? $$$? I'd love to try painting on paper with some and maybe staining something.
I'm disappointed that our persimmon variety won't work but would rather eat ripe anyway I guess.......

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r ranson

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posted 8 years ago

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I'm looking for a Canadian source of kakishibu (until I can grow my own).

I have a tiny bit of it that a friend gave me, but I don't know how to use it. It's very thick jelly in a jar. I was hoping to dye some cotton with it, but not sure how much cotton it will dye or how to dilute the liquid/jelly.

Any thoughts on how to use concentrated kakishibu?

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tel jetson

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posted 8 years ago

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Judith Browning wrote:
I'm curious....what are you planning to do with five gallons?

I use it on woodworking projects. mostly beehives. used some to waterproof a pair of canvas shoes. treated some projects I sewed out of paper. I bought it mostly with beehives in mind, but then slowed way down on building beehives.

Judith Browning wrote:Do you think it's possible to ship a half pint or so?

probably. I'll look around for some containers. a bit busy at the moment, though...

Judith Browning wrote:
I'm disappointed that our persimmon variety won't work but would rather eat ripe anyway I guess.......

maybe worth trying out with your persimmons. my understanding is that the process takes at least a couple of years, though, so maybe not.

I've considered trying to get permits to bring some trees back from Japan. haven't looked into the process yet.

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Joy Banks

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posted 8 years ago

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Wow folks, you've got me running down this trail now! A natural dye I've never heard of! Permies is zooming to Number One for resources, for sure.
Found a link to buying some: http://kakishibuusa.com/

Will be investigating this in the next few days. Totally cool that this is a preservative too, for all fibers, wood, cellulose in any form.
Looks like amazing stuff.

tel jetson

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posted 8 years ago

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R Ranson wrote:It's very thick jelly in a jar.

that doesn't sound quite right. even the undiluted stuff I got is still entirely liquid. it's possible that yours is already set up and won't work terribly well. no reason you shouldn't try it out, though.

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r ranson

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posted 8 years ago

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tel jetson wrote:

R Ranson wrote:It's very thick jelly in a jar.

that doesn't sound quite right. even the undiluted stuff I got is still entirely liquid. it's possible that yours is already set up and won't work terribly well. no reason you shouldn't try it out, though.

Tomorrow is going to be sunny, so I might give it a try then. I've some cotton cloth I'm very keen to try it on.

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Joy Banks

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posted 8 years ago

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R Ranson wrote:

tel jetson wrote:

R Ranson wrote:It's very thick jelly in a jar.

This website http://kakishibuusa.com/ has instructions in how to use it as paint...

Kakishibu Paint ~ "Nu-ri" - Care Points -

1. The color will be darker after the time passes, especially the surface with sunlight directly. It is better to make little lighter than you think.

2. Kakishibu will have chemical reaction with "Steel". Please do NOT use containers made by steel.

3. In case you have small air bubble during the paint, please take off with fabric.

4. There is no effect for "waterproof" right after you paint. Please make it dry out, and Kakishibu creates natural water proof effect by being oxidized in the air.

5. Kakishibu will be firmed like jelly by fermentation in the bottle. Can not keep for long term.

Rue Barbie

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Location: Coastal Southern California

posted 8 years ago

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Joy Banks wrote:Wow folks, you've got me running down this trail now! A natural dye I've never heard of! Permies is zooming to Number One for resources, for sure.
Found a link to buying some: http://kakishibuusa.com/

I dry persimmons in the fall - the astringent, common Hachiya. I pick them when fully orange, but still firm, peel, slice and dehydrate. They are wonderful. In the process, I often use a towel to dry my hands from juices as I work. Once I used a large white terry towel for this. Two years, and many washes later, the towel is still stained with dark patches. I have never been able to get those dark brown stains out, and had wondered if persimmon could be used as a dye. Now I know, lol. The towel finally has been relegated to the rag bag.

Henry Jabel

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posted 8 years ago

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Anyone know the what gives the kakishibu its various properties.

The tannin would obviously stain wood black and help preserve the wood.

However is the water proofing properties also caused by the tanin? Wikipedia says the tannin in unripe persimmons is called shibuol and can polymerise to create phytobezoars (basically a lump in the stomach!). Am I right in assuming the polymerising causes the waterproofing?

Persumably other tannins could do this or is it just shibol?

I am asking as the U.K is not exactly a persimmon hotspot but we do have some other high tannin fermented liquids

r ranson

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posted 8 years ago

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Henry Jabel wrote:Anyone know the what gives the kakishibu its various properties.

The tannin would obviously stain wood black and help preserve the wood.

However is the water proofing properties also caused by the tanin? Wikipedia says the tannin in unripe persimmons is called shibuol and can polymerise to create phytobezoars (basically a lump in the stomach!). Am I right in assuming the polymerising causes the waterproofing?

Persumably other tannins could do this or is it just shibol?

I am asking as the U.K is not exactly a persimmon hotspot but we do have some other high tannin fermented liquids

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Katherine Allam

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posted 8 years ago

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I have been purchasing vintage saki bags recently directly from Japan. They make excellent outdoor/wet area cushions. I have learnt that these bags are dipped in fermented persimmon juice. The juice keeps the rice wine free from bacteria/mould.

Henry Jabel

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posted 7 years ago

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Excellent question!

We went do the shops this week to look for persimmon trees and/or fruit that might have seeds in it. No fruit, but it's probably out of season. Trees start at way-to-expencive for tiny little things.

Been wondering what might be the local equivalent of a persimmon.

As the PIE fairy had reminded me about this thread I better tell you what I think could be an alternative. I reckon cider apples might be worth trying as they have a higher amount of tannin than typical apples as well as wine grapes. If anyone was to try this using unripe fruit like they do with the persimmon might be a good idea.

Obviously its a shot in the dark as there appears to be no information I can find on the percentage of tannin in kakishibu juice to compare. Also if the shibol (the tannin in persimmon) polymerises in a weak acid can the tannins in apples and grapes do the same thing? -I would guess the polmerising would give the liquid most of its awesome properties.

Edit: Looks like it is potentially possible to polmerise tartaric acid which is found in the alternatives I mentioned:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pola.23330/abstract

Charlie Little

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posted 7 years ago

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For those interested who stumble upon this thread in the future, "The varieties of persimmon containing great amounts of tannin are used, such as Ten'nou, Tsurunoko (Chocolate), Hourenbou, Saijou and Tamura."

Chocolate and Saijou or Saijo as you will find it, are found at nursery websites that deal in persimmon trees in the USA. I have both in my yard as small trees with first fruits this year, along with ten other varieties. I also admin the facebook group Persimmon World if anyone wants to join just send a request.

Doubtful anyone far north as Canada will get any D kaki variety to grow and survive, short of a controlled environment. Some group members grow them in large pots like figs and move them into the garage for winter.

I'm not a persimmon or kakishibu expert, just a guy with a few trees, but there are a few variety experts in the group.

Somebody wrote that our native persimmons would not or may not work. I have probably seven gallons going now, will let you know in a few years. As for the duration it takes to finish, I have an aeration theory that will be put to test some to see if it speeds things up a bit or halts or ruins it.

They "ferment" in open vessels. I'm not familiar with this and my experience says open top vessels turn fermenting things into vinegar. The nature of the persimmon being tannic is a very good preservative so not much should bother it by way of bad microbial things.

Edited to add: You who are searching for seed. I can help with that. D virginiana. I can send them anywhere, just pay shipping. They need a cold stratification period either outdoors in winter in pots that are kept moist or in moist media in the refrigerator for three months.

r ranson

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posted 7 years ago

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Neat stuff.

Charlie Little wrote:
Doubtful anyone far north as Canada will get any D kaki variety to grow and survive, short of a controlled environment. Some group members grow them in large pots like figs and move them into the garage for winter.

Are they light sensitive? Eating persimmons grow well in our corner of Canada. Banana's too, except it doesn't get hot enough in the summer for them to produce. I'm curious what sort of temperature (and other climate factors) range they like.

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Charlie Little

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posted 7 years ago

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r ranson wrote:Neat stuff.

Charlie Little wrote:
Doubtful anyone far north as Canada will get any D kaki variety to grow and survive, short of a controlled environment. Some group members grow them in large pots like figs and move them into the garage for winter.

Are they light sensitive? Eating persimmons grow well in our corner of Canada. Banana's too, except it doesn't get hot enough in the summer for them to produce. I'm curious what sort of temperature (and other climate factors) range they like.

Forgive me, when I think Canada I think of my friend laughing at me when it gets into the 20's F. Cliff England at England's Orchard & Nursery in Kentucky has kept great records of different variety survival rates. They lost over 200 in recent years' polar vortex.

Most all D kaki will do well enough in zone 7-9, excluding rare cold events that damage or kill young trees or new growth, as long as they get a couple hundred chill hours during winter for fruiting. There are a few group members far north as New York that have Hachiya growing outdoors in a well protected area like on the south side of a structure or having walls around one or more side.

It got to 1 F here last December for a couple of nights and all I lost was a few of the smallest twigs on all varieties.

Claire Tol

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posted 6 years ago

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Hey everyone!
Does anyone knows of a Kakishibu source in Germany or the EU? I'm turning up a blank, despite my best attempts. Thank you! Cheers

The birth of persimmon tannin! The metamorphosis of green persimmon fruits!

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Claire Tol wrote:Hey everyone!
Does anyone knows of a Kakishibu source in Germany or the EU? I'm turning up a blank, despite my best attempts. Thank you! Cheers

I wish I did.

I tried to import a crate of kakishibu into Canada, but it's illegal because it's a liquid. Which makes no sense. The problem is, it's not easy to classify. It's fermented, so it would fall under the liquor laws, but it's not consumable... so after many hours talking with the customs people, they basically said "you can't bring it into the country because we said so".

There is a powder kakishibu that we can import in theory. I haven't tried it yet as it's not as strong.

But apparently, customs have no problem with someone bringing one or two bottles in their luggage so I'm able to get a bottle every few years. I just got one and am re-dyeing my handbag right now to get a darker colour. I'm having a bit of trouble with it fading in the sunlight, which is opposit of what I was told it would do.

The kakishibu I used on wood has gotten darker with sun exposure.

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Claire Tol

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posted 6 years ago

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r ranson wrote:

Claire Tol wrote:Hey everyone!
Does anyone knows of a Kakishibu source in Germany or the EU? I'm turning up a blank, despite my best attempts. Thank you! Cheers

I wish I did.

I tried to import a crate of kakishibu into Canada, but it's illegal because it's a liquid. Which makes no sense. The problem is, it's not easy to classify. It's fermented, so it would fall under the liquor laws, but it's not consumable... so after many hours talking with the customs people, they basically said "you can't bring it into the country because we said so".

There is a powder kakishibu that we can import in theory. I haven't tried it yet as it's not as strong.

But apparently, customs have no problem with someone bringing one or two bottles in their luggage so I'm able to get a bottle every few years. I just got one and am re-dyeing my handbag right now to get a darker colour. I'm having a bit of trouble with it fading in the sunlight, which is opposit of what I was told it would do.

The kakishibu I used on wood has gotten darker with sun exposure.

Thanks so much for the info! I wish I could get some here for a Tatami frame I'm making... Will have to wait for visitors from the States or Asia, seems like :) Good luck with your projects! Cheers

The birth of persimmon tannin! The metamorphosis of green persimmon fruits!

Charlie Little

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posted 6 years ago

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Here's my Kakishibu, started a year and a month ago from native D virginiana persimmons. Looks promising. I just mashed them up in a vitamix and added the pulp to fermenting containers and kept covered.

Kakishibu_11.PNG

Kakishibu_12.PNG

Ruth Jerome

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posted 5 years ago

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I've read the whole thread 2x, and I still don't know what this is used for. I'm wondering, if it has as much tannin as this, could I add iron oxide and gum arabic to make ink?

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Okay, after considerable research I have figured out the chemistry here. So Kakishibu is a dye, wood stain and has potential for ink and leather tanning. The pigment in it is oxidized tannic acid. This is also what makes black tea a nice amber color, makes coffee brown, and makes tobacco a color other than green or yellow. Tannic acid oxidation can be done in a sealed container for several years as in the case of piroque tobacco, but it is much faster to use uv light, oxygen, and a temp of about 100 deg F. This is the method used for Black Tea and Virginia Flue Cure Tobacco. The steps are as follows: Immediately after harvest the material is allowed to dry in the sun until it has a 12-20% moisture content. Then the material is bruised to break cell walls and start enzymatic action. The material is kept in a heated room with good air circulation and the matter is rotated through the room to ensure even heating and moisture content. Enzymes slow down considerably below 90F and 12% moisture content. So try to keep it above that and below 130F and 20% moisture. Eventually, it should be a very dark brown color. When it is, it can be heated to 150F to stop the enzymes and bring the moisture content down for processing. In the case of tobacco, you want to maintain the moisture at 12% so it can be smoked rather than just burning. But for tea or mere tannin extraction, you want it very dry. For tannin extraction, you need to pulverize the material, boil it in water for several hours, and strain out the spent material. You can concentrate the tannin by boiling it. It is a dissolved solid within a water solution at any temp below 218F, but higher temps in the absence of water can make it into a liquid. Luckily, water boils at 212F, so you have no worries with evaporating your tannin.

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Ari Persian

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posted 4 years ago

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Charlie Little wrote:Here's my Kakishibu, started a year and a month ago from native D virginiana persimmons. Looks promising. I just mashed them up in a vitamix and added the pulp to fermenting containers and kept covered.

tel jetson wrote:I've got five gallons in my basement. could probably spare a bit if somebody is really interested.

Hey all, I just got a little bit of Kakishibu (a few places sell the powder or liquid form of it).
Going to take some pure white Levi's 501's and try dyeing them

. My artist friend's main type of work is 'dye art' so she will help me a bit.
I have learned that Kakishibu dye doesn't need a 'Mordant' to make the dye soluble in the water to stick onto the fabric (like how Indigo needs a Mordant in the dye solution).
Anyhoo, got any advice Charlie Little and tel jetson as seems like you guys are experimenting with the dye???
I kinda want a deep dark brown to show up on the fabric. Is that possible?

Should I use any Dye Modifiers before or after on the fabric like like Iron?, and if so how will it influence the color?
I am in contact with a few Kakishibu suppliers with questions like this... But thought I'd ask the forum here as well.

I also got a few other dyes and may experiment to see if I can mix/overdye and make some new interesting colors.

Thanks!,
-Ari

tel jetson

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posted 4 years ago

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sounds fun.

I've seen some kakishibu denim jeans before. very expensive. as with indigo denim, only the warp was dyed.

the only idea I've got is applying it to the outside rather than soaking the whole garment. the only fabric I've done with kakishibu was some canvas shoes, and I brushed it on the outside. the color has held up well for at least five years. better than the soles...

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tel jetson

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Ari Persian wrote:Should I use any Dye Modifiers before or after on the fabric like like Iron?

like oak gall, kakishibu has a whole lot of tannin in it. if you've got enough, you may as well experiment.

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Ari Persian

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posted 4 years ago

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tel jetson wrote:sounds fun.
I've seen some kakishibu denim jeans before. very expensive. as with indigo denim, only the warp was dyed.

Yeh they are CRAZY expensive ($200-$400). Here are some examples with cost (the cost for alot of these is USED btw hehe):
https://www.grailed.com/listings/14559443-kapital-kakishibu-dyed-selvedge-denim
https://www.grailed.com/listings/14175047-sugar-cane-x-toyo-enterprises-sc-redline-selvedge-persimmon-dye-jeans
https://www.grailed.com/listings/16775833-kapital-x-kapital-kountry-kapital-kountry-persimmon-dyed-boro-aloha-shirt-3
https://www.okayamadenim.com/products/pre-order-od-pbj-18oz-kakishibu-selvedge-jeans-relaxed-tapered (example where Indigo dye on the 'warp' and Persimmon dye on the 'weft' part of the jean... guessing weft means the inner threads on inside of the pants).

Very pretty dye. so hoping to save some money and make my own since I know Levi's 501s fit me perfect :).

I think I'll try Kakishibu, Kakishibu with Iron Modifier, Kakishibu with Indigo, and possible try to get some blue-greens on a few more jeans (I've seen Indigo with Grass dye for example on these expensive jeans: https://i.imgur.com/Hu7FHeA.jpg which I like the color of... but i think maybe Indigo [or Logwood] combined with Weld [or Persian Berry] will also give some good greens since grass dye is harder to find and more expensive).
Here is some examples of those overdyes combos:
https://www.suzannedekel.com/post/compound-colours-indigo-and-weld-greens
https://www.suzannedekel.com/post/green-without-indigo-using-logwood-and-weld

Dreama Blankenbeckler

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posted 4 years ago

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I am a natural dyer. Found this! Hope it helps. http://m.jejuweekly.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=118

Joanna Alexander

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posted 3 years ago

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After the persimmon juice is filtered, how or where is it stored to age? Is the filtered fermented juice placed in containers outdoors or is it placed in containers and allowed to age in a cool dark place?
If someone could answer this post it would be helpful to this novice.

L. Johnson

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posted 2 years ago

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Alas... this is done with green persimmons. Somehow I was hoping I'd be able to make some out of the peel left over from making hoshigaki. It might still work to some extent but it sounds like most of the action is coming from the meat of the fruit. I'll wait until next year's crop and get the earlies on the hard to harvest trees.

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Eino Kenttä

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posted 2 years ago

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Damn, this sounds sooo cool and useful! Now I just want to plant some American persimmons to try this out. I had crossed them off the plant wish list because they have doubtful hardiness in our climate and there are plenty of more well-adapted fruits to grow, but now...

Patricia Stoneseed

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Location: Southern Indiana

posted 1 year ago

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I spent some weeks this summer dying with the falling green persimmons. Here is a brief post about the process. As noted in the post, I am fermenting some for future use.
https://quilterscomfort.blogspot.com/2023/09/indiana-persimmon-astringent-dye.html

May Lotito

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posted 4 months ago

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Wild persimmons in my area are in mature size but green and firm. It seems to be the optimal time for starting the kakishibu. Most instructions I read require three years for aging. Can this process be shortened and still achieve the deep coloring with higher concentration, multiple dyeing steps and longer sun exposure?

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Patricia Stoneseed

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Location: Southern Indiana

posted 4 months ago

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I am just now completing my second green persimmon dye season and months of figuring out how to dye with the leaves. I have to check the development of my ferments started last year. I am ready to make a new post to the quilterscomfort blog. In working with the green persimmons, I get a more water repellant surface that does not harden inside surfaces. When using the leaf, I get consistent persimmon tans but with a softer finish. On silk, the persimmon leaf is a persimmon golden color. You will be working around the weather, bringing in dyed items when you have continual days of rain, then returning to the sun again. There seems to be more available pigment in earlier drops. I put some prepared dyes in the refrigerator when having multiple rain days. Refrigerated dyes were bought to room temperature before using. I do think that the pigment reduces over many days in the fridge. As persimmons ripen, they loose their ability to dye. As pieces dry, I redip for depth of color. Sometimes I scrunch up fabric to achieve a mottled texture. I am doing some shibori stitching and getting even dyes. At present, shibori patterns are easier to achieve using leaf dye. High cost associated with products is because of time and labor involved in the dye process.

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