Tricks to Keep the Dirt from Sliding off a Hugel?

I just saw this video and thought of this thread. It shows Sepp Holzer's way of using sticks to help hold the soil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KafYj_AcVs

So I'm thinking that if a kid used a post hole auger, and put the logs in vertically oriented (kinda like a fence post), then put the logs in the holes as close together as you could get the auger to drill without slipping into the hole you already made you would be able to make a pretty narrow/tall hugel mound. You could have deep dirt channels all the way to the original soil level, and the vertical orientation would leave you with little terraces to stack the dirt on and stay in place. You would have to play with the spacing a bit, but it seems like you could really get a nice steep mound with a narrow footprint this way. If I get some time before the ground freezes solid I'll try it out and post the results. (oh and I think the vertical log orientation would really accelerate the wicking action in the hugel mound and speed decomposition) What do you all think?

Dave, I think using the post hole digger is a great idea to put the logs in without having to dig the entire area up. Thanks for that idea! I'm going to try another bed like that.

Dave Dahlsrud wrote:.... I think the vertical log orientation would really accelerate the wicking action in the hugel mound and speed decomposition) What do you all think?

I've wondered about the vertical wicking, and asked in years previous. Seems more like emulating Nature, to wick as the xylem etc go, vertically. Of course Nature usually decomposes horizontally, but not always. I had a dead tree decompose vertically, no way to know if it accelerated it or not. Or when we want to accelerate it or not?

I got no real answers when I asked. Hopefully someone has some results by now? Or you will? <g>

When we built ours, I poked in sticks to hold stalks from sunflowers and amaranth that acted almost like retaining walls for a terrace. Then I could had more manure and dirt to keep bulding the soil depth because I knew as it settled the steepness would slowly decrease. I topped it off with a layer of straw as a mulch and layered more wild sunflower stalks to keep the wind from blowing the mulch away in the high winds that we get before a storm.

That was 3 years ago, and I still add my "redneck terracing" each year to hold the chop and drop and compost that I add each year. The pre-storm winds around here can get pretty bad; to the point of blowing down chain link fences sometimes.

Suggest thinking wider if you are allowing for nature. If you are building a reservoir the manual calls for a roughly 1 to 2 for dam construction In other words fairly flat. A canal bank to minimize erosion on a shaped bank they want at most a 1 to 1 slope in clay and 1 to 4 in sandy soil. So if these need to be that flat what do you expect piles to naturally behave like?? You are adding water to soil. So if you are expecting a 2 to 1 slope instead you are going to have to work fairly hard to achieve it.

That said is there any reason why some of the wood can't go into the trench on sloping verticals to hold stuff from sliding?

Regarding pondweed, my friends have a giant rake attached to a rope. They throw the rake out into the pond, then pull it back by the rope. They also have a little rowboat which I imagine helps. This method has worked for them for decades, and when I have worked in their garden, it is REALLY fun to have all that pondweed.

Regarding hugelkulture slope, there's a picture in sepp's book of a woman leisurely picking from a hugel with a basket... I think wearing a pink shirt. The idea is that the hugel is perfectly proportioned to her body so she can reach the garden- even at the top- without bending or leaning over much. Folks in wheelchairs should also ideally be able to reach the garden easily. The extreme slope is for maximum surface area and accessibility. If you don't care about that, it doesn't really matter. If you do, you're aiming for a hill that you can stand up straight at the base of, reach out your arm over, and touch the crest with your finger tips. That's STEEP! To achieve this, I recommend pinning branches on newly built and seeded beds (all in the same day- you will need an excavator) as described by a few people above. That's how Sepp taught us in Montana and he strongly emphasized that doing it differently is NOT his way.

I myself am enamoured with the Sepp Way, but I believe it will take me practice before I can recreate it by myself. Remember that he has been experimenting with this stuff on his giant farm for a loooong time. The way he explains is his favorite for the above reasons. Now you get to find your favorite. Looks like a bunch of folks have shared theirs in this thread. I always love to read Bryant's take on things, for example. So inspiring!

I am new to permaculture and this site so forgive me if I step on any toes. As I understand the purpose of permaculture is to work with nature not against it. However, every hugelkultur mound I have seen built here or diagrams is against how nature builds mounds that would work as these are desired. Nature does not build high to begin with or so vertical. IN nature a tree might fall across a hill contour that is then filled in from above by leaves and erosion. The log serves initially as a dam. With time the back side may start to have some build up from leaves and then overflown erosion. Over time the uphill side will fill slowly until a swale is formed above the log. During this time soil creature move in and seed is sown, whose root begin to hold the swale in place. Over much time the log will rot, but only after the swale has been established with growth to hold it in place. Build your hugel with this in mind, keep it low 18 to 24 inches maximum, filling up hill and sowing first deep root grasses like rye, wheat, millet and such. Then even deep rooted vegetables. Carrots will grow a root network up to 7 feet wide and as deep as 17 feet! Look it up. Nest add deep rooted bushes like seaberry, Fig, Grape and others and nitogen fixing trees with deep roots like American Red Bud and Honey locust. Then you will have a stable hugel (hill)/Swale. If you want something as tall as I see in your pictures and diagrams, make a tall raised bed as I do using cinder block as the walls and then put in the layering of various organic matter like limbs and other compostable each layer with dirt.
If you want a swale to hold on a hill without using wood or even with wood, scalp the sod first and layer it upside down as your build upward and it will hold. This is how I have built swales all my life in the East Tennessee mountains, only we did not know to call them swales, just erosion barriers and water diverters.

"In all things consider the lilies in the field, and birds of the air" though to many a biblical fantasy, Nature is there to provide for them AND to TEACH us!

I have to laugh with this thread. It is really hard to get to the top of my Hugel mounds. I have to walk along the ridge to pull weeds. (Oops, do permies pull weeds?). The mounds are too wide at the base for me to reach over to the top. I think I was partly just too timid to build as tall as Sepp suggests. Or, the soil sliding situation deters me. I don't mind getting a bit of a stretch though and it's all good, right? I have lot's of mistakes that I plan to let nature sort out for me over time.

Yeah, even with my "steep" hugel, it's still hard for me to reach to the middle. I'm really glad I put those upright log rounds in there, so I have something to stand on. That really helps with accessing the top. I like the idea of building up, but it sure is hard to access the middle. Currently, I think I'm more in favor of building relatively level hugels with walls to hold the dirt, etc. A raised bed hugel is a lot more accessable for me, and they can be built at a slight south-facing aspect pretty easily, to gain a little more sun exposure.

Here's some pictures of how my tall hugel has been turning out. It's not nearly as steep as it used to be, and I've had to rebuild certain areas due to erosion. And, planting seeds in it is quite a bit more difficult than in a normal bed. All in all, I'm still pretty happy with it, and I really appreciate how I don't have to water it (except when I just plant seeds--I water the top layer of soil just to be on the safe side) and how it gives me a nice south-facing slope on my north-facing property

I do like this:

Thesite is a slope/under the slope is some horisontal surface, where I aim to make a garden. The topsoil is very thin. I have not so many logs, but get more in March. I made tests about Hügelkultur-beds in Greece an nowI am in Bulgaria => almost three months without clouds - just sunshine (in Greece) - here is always now and then some rain.

First digging about three feet deep, four feet wide - filling with cardbords, soil, mulch - a lot of mulch. I am a big beliver in worms. They are the gardeners small helpers.
Also straw, then a layer of logs that will press the mulch down, then soil, mulch and straws across. the straw comes out from the sides.
A new layer of logs, soil, straw - a lot of straw - and repeting. from the both sides of the base, all topsoil on the 'pyramide', using twigs.
I water each layer and use wet straw, so that I get as much as possible packed.  Finally I cover everything with straw and fill both sides of the base that I have dug, with mulch and straw.

Need to use a lot of straw as protection, because of the sun.
I think that I can make some 35 - 40 degrees angels. The owner of the house has agreed that I can make tests like: giving some beds water,  and some with a little bit less water, some no water.
I will photograph everything and put the picks here.

Henry

Nicole Alderman wrote:I know I'm probably not the only one that deals with this. I build up a nice pile of wood, put sod over it, and then attempt to cover with dirt. The dirt all rolls off, piling on the ground around the hugel. This makes for deep soil at the bottom, and very little on the top. To get soil deep enough at the top, the bottom gets so wide I can't reach the plants at the top of the hugel. It's very frustrating!

Anyone have any tricks to keep the dirt on top? I've found putting rocks or logs around the edge helps keep some of the dirt up, but hauling all those rocks is no fun, and wastes uses up some vertical planting space. The logs also do that, as well as wick moisture from the hugel.

I'm currently thinking about putting some logs around the base while I put the dirt on the hugel, and then removing them afterward, and hoping the dirt doesn't all slide off... and that the logs will actually come out!

Anyone have any tricks or techniques to arranging the hugel and putting the dirt on so it doesn't all slide off?

Thanks!

I saw a great idea on YouTube where you take old branches and use them as stakes alongside the mound

stuff brush in between the stakes and the mound which creates a flatter surface

then pile wood chips on top of the brush

it should be more flat after THAT and the dirt won't slide as much

I too have been wondering about how to keep dirt in place, especially on a new bed.

I have pondered several solutions.

I did think about the Ancient Mayans and their stepped pyramids.

Perhaps instead of straight sloped sides, you make them into a sort of stepped pyramid of sorts?
On each step perhaps put a small straight branch, pinned in place so there is a gap between the branch and the slope (to catch water and allow you to plant things).

I will be building mine this spring. No pics yet to post.

Mine will be in a 'comb' shape to maximize sun exposure, catch more run off water, and block some of the wind.
Smaller 'fingers' of the 'comb' will allow more access to areas without having to make a staircase to get to everything.

I plan on using tossed out Christmas trees in my hugel too. Probably to hold the dirt in place.

About tunnels by rodents - seems to me that will allow more aeration to the mound and better root growth.

Anyone think of adding vent tubes to each mound to let air into the center/bottom?

This is similar to the air pruning pot method.

My dirt is composed of 'barn scrapings. That was tilled repeatedly to make the dirt more fluffy.
The dirt is on a long 'U' shaped pile, plastic covered for now. similar to hugel but no wood in it yet. Still have to rototill the hardpan after moving the dirt to make the ground saucer like to put the wood in (about a foot or so deep I planned) and build the Hugel on top of that.


I am not sure how tall I can make it as I am still getting materials.

Biggest question is about the Mayan Pyramid Style for new beds. Do you think it can hold the soil until things get growing?

Update:

I took 10-5 gallon buckets and filled them with wood chips then filled with rain water. All are frozen solid right now.

My theory is that water in the wood would freeze and help break apart the chips as well as saturate the wood chips prior to putting them in the hugel bed.

Might save time and watering effort labor.

Your thoughts?

crazy squirrel wrote:
I did think about the Ancient Mayans and their stepped pyramids.

The real engineering feat is Maachu Picchu.  The entire mountains were terraced all of the way to the bottom.  This is an engineering feat in itself, but it gave them much additional growing room.  They had a system where water ran from one bed to another.  There was a fabulous documentary about this, but I haven't been able to find it in years.

uh....more...dirt?

crazy squirrel wrote:Update:

I took 10-5 gallon buckets and filled them with wood chips then filled with rain water. All are frozen solid right now.

My theory is that water in the wood would freeze and help break apart the chips as well as saturate the wood chips prior to putting them in the hugel bed.

Might save time and watering effort labor.

Your thoughts?

Soaking wood chips was OK except it became quite anaerobic.

My Hugel garden was a disaster.

It got waaayyy too hot this summer. Couldn't give it enough water. Even soil temps were 95 degrees +

We got a well fixed but I am afraid it was far too late in the season.

I will say this: Pig Weed GROWS like crazy on it.

Everything else burned up/dried up.

Watermelons (volunteer ones) started out OK but failed. Same with hot peppers.


Oh well. Might try again next year.

This is a great thread with good suggestions. I was thinking about a post in the forum that mention the benefits of combining diverse habitat stone, wood or rock features; mixing annuals and perennials; flowers and vegetables and mulch to help bring predators to your garden and manage pests. Great idea. So it can also pull double duty by helping stabilize soil as well using a combination of these things in you hugelkulture mound. My first thought was what can you use to stabilize soil and add other benefits like attract pollinators, attract predators for petty prey, give stability as well as diversity? So I used a key word search that included, native plants, stabilizing bank and soils against erosion. Wow there's ;lots of reports and studies with loads of ideas for specific plant recommendations to hold the soil in place. You could mix in the plants or even plant in horizontal rows at certain levels to hold soil in place. My first thought was the various sedge family of grasses that can stand as individual plants in a row, hold the soil together with its roots and even help retain water and reduce runoff. Here is a list from just one report and I just picked the list that had the small low growing plants. There are reports that include native plants from all over. Okay so maybe this doesn't fit perfect in all cases but it is a starting point to consider when brainstorming. I think that since fully mature plants may get bigger then you want them in your hugelkulture mound so you separate and otherwise manage their mass and transplant the operations and dividing to other areas. Here is a list in a screen shot image I look forward to comments and discussion. NC Cooperative Extension Backyard Stream Repair Program. Cheers

From my brief reading this winter what I can add to the conversation is that living compost and compost teas are essential to keeping the soil in place. The organisms do the work. So the answer to the question is...

If you don't want your dirt sliding off don't use dirt! Use soil!

I think we all struggle with keeping the soil on the hugel.  Like suggested I used lots of twigs, and straw, then more soil.  On the ends where I found it the hardest to get the soil to stick I also used mud.  I will never forget the look on my teenage sons face when he came out and found me elbow deep in the mud.  The look on his face made me burst out laughing. He knew I had lost it when he found me playing in the mud.  Makes me laugh just thinking about it. I have only built one hugelkultur, but I have lots of experience with this because my chickens thought it was great fun to kick all the soil I managed to get to stay in place off.  I can't tell you how many times I rebuilt the top layers of my hugel.  I finally had to put a fence around it.  That did the trick thank goodness.  When I planted at first I would build a stick dam, then  fill with compost and plant in that so I wouldn't have seeds rolling down the side.  It worked for me, and I think once that plants established themselves, the roots helped as well.  Your hugel looks amazing to me.

Jen I have not read up on hugelkulture heavily as of yet. My odd sense of humor has already made a title for a thread though should I ever start one.

"Who is this hugo fellow, and why does everyone want to torture him?"

Are there not specific instructions on  mulching cover crop and chop and drop that are being ignored here?

Jen Fulkerson wrote:I think we all struggle with keeping the soil on the hugel.  Like suggested I used lots of twigs, and straw, then more soil.  On the ends where I found it the hardest to get the soil to stick I also used mud.  I will never forget the look on my teenage sons face when he came out and found me elbow deep in the mud.  The look on his face made me burst out laughing. He knew I had lost it when he found me playing in the mud.  Makes me laugh just thinking about it. I have only built one hugelkultur, but I have lots of experience with this because my chickens thought it was great fun to kick all the soil I managed to get to stay in place off.  I can't tell you how many times I rebuilt the top layers of my hugel.  I finally had to put a fence around it.  That did the trick thank goodness.  When I planted at first I would build a stick dam, then  fill with compost and plant in that so I wouldn't have seeds rolling down the side.  It worked for me, and I think once that plants established themselves, the roots helped as well.  Your hugel looks amazing to me.

I need to go out there and take "after" pictures. It's apparently been almost 6 years since I built that hugel (how has time flown that fast?!), and it's the same height or shorter than the one behind it that was built 8 years ago! It got a lot wider, too. I have no idea why the first one I built hasn't shrunk nearly as much. Maybe because I used bigger logs and more soil and didn't try to make it as high?

It's a happy little hugel, making blueberries and honeyberries, but it's no steep hugel, that's for sure!

I feel silly, sorry I hate when I do that, it's not the first time, I try to remember to look at the dates, but sometimes I forget.  Oh well.

Jen Fulkerson wrote:I feel silly, sorry I hate when I do that, it's not the first time, I try to remember to look at the dates, but sometimes I forget.  Oh well.

Revisiting of old topics isn't necessarily a bad thing. Dr RedHawk's soil biology studies have come quite a ways in that time, and there are always new minds to inject fresh energy and ideas. It does get tiring when certain subjects keep reappearing by being commented on by folks who could have easily found the answer with just a few more minutes of reading.

Yes, reviving old threads is good! It builds knowledge. I don't know how many times I've gone looking for how to do something, and wondered "how did these turn out years later?" And there's no info, because facebook is ephemeral and blogs don't usually have time/reason to do updates. But, here on permies, we encourage updates. So here's the update!

(I'm attaching the pictures here, and then in the next post, I'll do a side-by-side of them with the old pictures.)

(Note, it's winter now, February 2021. The previous pictures were taken in October, 2015)

View from the eastern side:

6 years ago

today, 6 years later

View from the western side:

6 years ago

hugel, 6 years later

View from the southern side:

6 years ago

today--sorry about the different angle

I honestly think part of the reason it's shrank is that the first few years I didn't really maintain it (thanks to tiny toddler and then being pregnant and a baby) and so I had to pull out a lot of buttercup. That reduced organic matter and also soil, and probably caused erosion, even though I kept mulching it.

Thanks Nicole. I love the pictures.  Where you surprised how much they had settled. I would think seeing it all the time, you wouldn't notice as much, but seeing it side by side, shows the difference.
I'm glad I read this post because I didn't realize I needed to put soil or compost on my hugelkultur every year.  I wanted to add a new layer of straw to reduce weeds, but I have been reading a lot of bad things about straw. Chemicals that could kill everything I plant.  I have chop and dropped pumpkin, but that isn't enough.  What do you use?  
Thanks for the update.   Jen

I chop and drop the nipplewort that grows in there. But mostly, I mulch with duck bedding (pine shavings + duck poo), or woodchips from the tree trimming service. This works pretty well with the perennial strawberries, chives, blueberries and honeyberries that I'm growing there.

Having said that, I never did figure out how to grow annuals with mulch very well. Mulch doesn't stop buttercup--it grows right up and over and through it. The mulch does make the buttercup easier to pull up, though!

Yes, be cautious of straw & compost contamination. Here's some info about aminopyralid.

Thanks for the pics Nicole. Fun to see a 6 year later comparison.

Seeing your after pictures reminded me of visiting Serpent Mound in southern Ohio when I was a kid: a 1300+ foot long, 3 foot tall earthen effigy construction which various dating methods aren't sure if it's 900 years old or up to 2300 years old as some items in it were dated, and looks like a snake eating an egg from above:

     I should start by saying I have not built a Hugel Garden yet (this year) but I have been reading the posts and have an idea to keep the dirt in place. You could use some thin long sticks such as the stems of Saplings that could be layered horizontally half up the mound. They would act as a retention fence and hold the dirt in place, the sticks would only protrude about as far as the amount of thickness of dirt you want to hold up on the pile. Just a thought, Chas.

If you know a potter, you can get some clay from them to use. I took dry clay and crushed it between 2 pavers. The finer the particles the better. I mixed in with top soil and moistened the mix. It stuck pretty well and it hasn't slid off after watering it several times. Its my 2nd Hugel bed.

Most of the images (drawings) showing hugel design/install show the logs laying lengthwise of the hugel.  This facilitates for slumping (the falling you discussed in the opening post).  If you cut the logs to the width of the hugel and lay them perpendicular to the run of the hugel then each layer helps hold the dirt up instead of letting it fall down.  Here is a photo of the first course of material placed for a 13-foot-long hugel that runs from left to right in the photo.  After covering these with soil, I will put a layer of 3.5" logs, then dirt, 3' logs, dirt, etc

I was just feeling like a complete idiot because all the sand/soil is sliding off my first attempt at a mini hugel bed.  Thanks for the help, people!

I haven't tried to go for one of those tal textbook hugels, but I did make low hugels to try to keep some of the moisture in my gardens instead of rolling on down my hill. I have struggled to find enough dirt without spending all my time digging (which I say I don't want to do at all, anyway). My first hugles really had the worst problem. The second set, we anchored the tops with transplanted dandelions, white clover, and yarrow, all of which grow in abundance on my field. The hugels where there are anchor plants kept getting better. The hugels who don't have anchor plants tend to erode, rather than stay. Now I've been focusing on trying to establish a few perennials in each set of hugels to help anchor and provide a source of continually growing topsoil. Its a fascinating business, that's for sure!

Ellen Schwindt wrote:I haven't tried to go for one of those tal textbook hugels, but I did make low hugels to try to keep some of the moisture in my gardens instead of rolling on down my hill. I have struggled to find enough dirt without spending all my time digging (which I say I don't want to do at all, anyway). My first hugles really had the worst problem. The second set, we anchored the tops with transplanted dandelions, white clover, and yarrow, all of which grow in abundance on my field. The hugels where there are anchor plants kept getting better. The hugels who don't have anchor plants tend to erode, rather than stay. Now I've been focusing on trying to establish a few perennials in each set of hugels to help anchor and provide a source of continually growing topsoil. Its a fascinating business, that's for sure!

Right there with you on all of this.I'm constructing a mini-hugel to practice, and I was thinking of anchoring with lamb's quarters or a perennial vegetable.
Guess I had better get off permies and get back to work.

Great post!

I love the 43° idea, that helps!

Here's my current attempt; two old baths as ponds, with a hugel base/surround, leading into a small hugel semi-circle.   Definitely a work in progress!  I'm using the huge carob we had cut back earlier in the year, and home-made compost and leafmould from under the old carob canopy.

I'm in Spain, usually no more than 600ml rain per year, and temperatures ranging from -1°c to 40+°c, so I'm hoping the bed will hold moisture in the blistering heat, and keep temperatures above 0°c in the winter!

Thank you for sharing all this info!

Helen

Susan Mené wrote:

I have struggled to find enough dirt without spending all my time digging...

When I read the instructions which had one put wood on the ground and then dig trenches 3 ft down on both sides and put all that dirt on the top, I realized my *only* choice was to modify. One of the first mini-hugels I did years ago, I put a lot of compost on, but the wood is still far too prominent and I lost one of the Hazelnuts that was planted there this past winter because of the colder and wetter than average winter. I think the water is leaching everything out of that hugel. Weeds grow happily on it, but most of the things I try to plant there aren't so happy.

Where I have tried to dig down, the heavy clay and frequently solid rock, has defeated me. I consider I've done well if I did down 18 inches, so now I'm planning for that or getting Hubby to fire up the excavator.

That said, the places where I've put even small amounts of wood covered with soil near existing trees genuinely seems to help the plants go longer into our summer drought without being stressed. I may not be able to keep dirt on a hugel well enough to go with *no* irrigation, but if I can reduce the irrigation for trees to one deep drink every 2-4 weeks during our drought season, I'm calling that a win!

I've built a coupla things I'm calling "hugels", but haven't really done my homework on the basic theory. I didn't try for the pyramidal shape, just made generic mound-shaped things with roundish tops. And I also haven't put the dirt cover on top yet, I've been waiting to run a lot of the smaller branches thru the shredder so there wouldn't be so many holes to have to fill up. Is there a standard basic theory course on hugels that I'd benefit from reading?

Thanks, Jerry in Southern Oregon

Jerry Brown wrote: Is there a standard basic theory course on hugels that I'd benefit from reading?

Here's an overview: https://richsoil.com/hugelkultur/