Win a copy of Straw Bale Building Details this week in the Straw Bale House forum!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • r ranson
  • paul wheaton
  • Anne Miller
  • Mike Jay
  • Jocelyn Campbell
stewards:
  • Devaka Cooray
  • Burra Maluca
  • Joseph Lofthouse
garden masters:
  • Dave Burton
  • Greg Martin
gardeners:
  • Mike Barkley
  • Shawn Klassen-Koop
  • Pearl Sutton

The F-Word  RSS feed

 
master steward
Posts: 14103
Location: Left Coast Canada
3070
books chicken fiber arts cooking sheep writing
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

, it is an acronym from the old days and that "F.U.C.K.=Fornication Under the Consent of the King."



I was always told it's an Anglo-Saxon word.  After the normans conquered England in 1066, people wanted to curry favour with the french speaking rulers so they adopted many Norman words.  Anglo-Saxon words were considered low and base (fuck became intercourse, shit became manure, and so on).  They were peasant words.  Using 'proper' 'English' was a sign of status.  Combine that with the social structure in England being a rank system (up to the mid 19th C when it transformed to a class system similar to what we have today) where people could migrate up (and down) the ranks, people who had a chance of gaining status would avoid using 'low' words like bloody (which became sanguine).
 
master pollinator
Posts: 10810
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
541
cat chicken fiber arts fish forest garden greening the desert trees wood heat
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
etymology of that word:  http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=fuck
 
pollinator
Posts: 780
Location: Pac Northwest, east of the Cascades
168
building chicken earthworks forest garden homestead hugelkultur rocket stoves solar trees wofati woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Travis Johnson wrote:Every time I hear someone speak or write the F-Bomb, I kind of laugh inside. I was always told it is not even a word, it is an acronym from the old days and that "F.U.C.K.=Fornication Under the Consent of the King." In other words, if the castle had a party going on, and the King made this deceleration, people could openly fornicate under his consent without repercussions. So 99-1/2% of the time, when I hear or see the F-Bomb, it is out of context and makes little sense.



You might want to research that a bit. http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/fuck.asp or https://solongasitswords.wordpress.com/2014/02/12/on-the-origin-of-fuck/

The Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang (Random House, 1994, ISBN 0-394-54427-7) cites Middle Dutch fokken = “to thrust, copulate with”; Norwegian dialect fukka = “to copulate”; and Swedish dialect focka = “to strike, push, copulate” and fock = “penis”. Although German ficken may enter the picture somehow, it is problematic in having e-grade, or umlaut, where all the others have o-grade or zero-grade of the vowel.

As for if it is a word or not. Language is not a static thing. New words are added to language all the time, borrowed from other languages, altered and adopted, or even just completely made up. They start out not officially being a word, until one day they are recognized as being words due to such heavy common use. Ain't, ain't a word until it ended up in the dictionary because it was used as a word so much it had to be recognized as a word. To try and dismiss a word that has been used at least since the 15th century and likely much older as it was likely used just not written long before that is rather silly. It is obviously a word, or we would not be talking about it. Even a word not officially recognized as a word, if used to communicate a meaning in a language, is a word by all counts officially recognized as one or not.

Billy Connolly take on swearing and the word Fuck
 
master steward
Posts: 5612
Location: Missoula, MT
1059
books food preservation forest garden hugelkultur purity
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Swearing goes even more mainstream! (I am not intending to advocate nor advertise for boxed macaroni and cheese, or censoring like this...though I did still find it fun!)


 
Posts: 37
Location: Hawaii
11
forest garden homeschooling homestead
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hmmm... i have a question! This thread has been around a long time, i hope i am not too late. =)

I have a tiny daughter, 3yrs old, and her friends of nearby ages who i would love to show Paul's videos and podcasts to. At this age, it's still hard for kids to really understand appropriate word use. I could get these kids in big trouble, and/or my daughter could lose friends. i love permaculture and Paul's podcasts and videos and would love to share them with visiting kids on occasion- without risk of drama.

My original thought was to bring the podcasts etc into a video / audio editor, paste over any swear words with something creative and fun such as "pudding". Maybe if i managed to get the time to do that for many of them and i do a good job, i could send them over to Paul in case he wants to have a school-appropriate version someday without having to do the work. I don't know when i will find the time to fiddle, but i wouldn't mind listening to them all again! Seemed like a good, do-no-harm option.

However after reading this thread, I am thinking Paul that you might not like me to do that. So that is my question. Would you be upset by this, or pleased?



Personally, I occasionally swear, and think it's pretty funny when Paul swears in the podcasts. I don't mind hearing swearing when it is not used in a mean way (and i have never heard Paul swear in a mean way!) Hearing swearing in angry ways reminds me of bad times, but joyful swearing likewise reminds me of fun, happy times. I certainly do *not* want Paul to change.

Some people I love do not prefer to be around swearing. They speak and treat others in a gentle way, and swearing feels violent to them. They don't get down on the person doing the swearing, but they go somewhere else if it is more than occasional. I feel like they are not harming anybody, and i respect and support their freedom to create a gentle space for themselves. I also respect people creating a feeling of comfort and safety in rough places, linguistically! I hope both ways can coexist!
 
r ranson
master steward
Posts: 14103
Location: Left Coast Canada
3070
books chicken fiber arts cooking sheep writing
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think this podcast with Paul had little or no swearing in it.  https://permies.com/t/65582 It's hosted by Permaculture voices.  

Words like 'shit' are called 'you know what'.  
 
pollinator
Posts: 2997
590
books cat chicken duck rabbit transportation trees woodworking
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
For me I am decidedly different anyway and like to be different so I have found by not swearing I can substitute words that make people laugh. Like the word "shit"...I might say, "boy you are just full of ka-ka aren't you?" Now you probably snickered, and that is okay, because what 43 year old guy says "ka-ka"? One of my favorite lines when I make a mistake is to say, "Ka-ka pants; ka ka pants in the snow." I have no idea why, but it lightens the mood and people around me laugh.

So I use the lack of swearing to be different, to get a laugh out of people, and change up the normal day to day life that can be dull...
 
master steward
Posts: 27442
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
bee chicken hugelkultur trees wofati woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
 
pollinator
Posts: 348
51
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Could someone please explain to me what "appropriate language" is? I have never heard a single sensible explanation of why fuck or shit or ass or damn or bitch are inappropriate and yet all other words are. Someone please bring me up to date on this. Language's function, in my mind, is to convey meaning from one being to another. The only 'inappropriate' language I can imagine is using words that don't accomplish that conveyance of meaning. I suppose I can see how the breadth of usages that fuck has could contribute to a vaguery of phrase that may render the language inappropriate by my own definition but that is all circumstantial and not an inherent feature of the word itself.
Aww fuck it, maybe we should just let eachother talk the way we want.
 
pollinator
Posts: 4339
Location: Anjou ,France
240
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
There was a great law case in the UK . On a building site it was raining so the forman told the bricklaying team " Fuck off as its raining " one of the men claimed he had been sacked by this speech . The man lost his case as the judge agreed it was appropriate language for a building site :-) All the other men came back the next day when it was dry .

David  
 
pollinator
Posts: 1793
Location: Wisconsin, zone 4
93
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

stephen lowe wrote:Could someone please explain to me what "appropriate language" is? I have never heard a single sensible explanation of why fuck or shit or ass or damn or bitch are inappropriate and yet all other words are. Someone please bring me up to date on this. Language's function, in my mind, is to convey meaning from one being to another. The only 'inappropriate' language I can imagine is using words that don't accomplish that conveyance of meaning. I suppose I can see how the breadth of usages that fuck has could contribute to a vaguery of phrase that may render the language inappropriate by my own definition but that is all circumstantial and not an inherent feature of the word itself.
Aww fuck it, maybe we should just let eachother talk the way we want.



In my mind, it's much like appropriate behavior.  Culture decides if it's appropriate or not.  Why is it appropriate if I go to the beach with my shirt off, but inappropriate if I go to a nice restaurant that way?  For that matter, why is it appropriate for me to walk around without a shirt on, but inappropriate for my girlfriend to?  Many things cultural don't have "sensible explanations", they are just agreed upon, at least by the majority of people.  Most people agreed that certain language is inappropriate, and they understand which words or phrases those are, even if they don't understand the reason behind it.
 
stephen lowe
pollinator
Posts: 348
51
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Todd Parr wrote:

stephen lowe wrote:Could someone please explain to me what "appropriate language" is? I have never heard a single sensible explanation of why fuck or shit or ass or damn or bitch are inappropriate and yet all other words are. Someone please bring me up to date on this. Language's function, in my mind, is to convey meaning from one being to another. The only 'inappropriate' language I can imagine is using words that don't accomplish that conveyance of meaning. I suppose I can see how the breadth of usages that fuck has could contribute to a vaguery of phrase that may render the language inappropriate by my own definition but that is all circumstantial and not an inherent feature of the word itself.
Aww fuck it, maybe we should just let eachother talk the way we want.



In my mind, it's much like appropriate behavior.  Culture decides if it's appropriate or not.  Why is it appropriate if I go to the beach with my shirt off, but inappropriate if I go to a nice restaurant that way?  For that matter, why is it appropriate for me to walk around without a shirt on, but inappropriate for my girlfriend to?  Many things cultural don't have "sensible explanations", they are just agreed upon, at least by the majority of people.  Most people agreed that certain language is inappropriate, and they understand which words or phrases those are, even if they don't understand the reason behind it.



That's certainly a good response, but I suppose what I was trying to ask is why/when our society decided these words were inappropriate? To use your examples, we agree that shirtless in a restaurant in inappropriate for primarily sanitary reasons that don't apply at the beach. We 'agree' (there's a little more diversity of opinion here I'd wager) that female public shirtlessness is inappropriate because we are culturally objectifying and protective of our women and don't trust men to be able to contain themselves at the site of boobies. So when/why was it decided that fuck was bad but fornicate was ok? Earlier in the thread someone mentioned that it came about during a continental invasion of the british isles where latin derived words were considered highclass while germanic ones were low class? Which begs the question to me, why do we still stick to this convention? do we still exalt our collective southern european cultural heritage above our collective northern/central european cultural heritage? I feel like younger folks, myself included, have a much different opinion on this matter but it certainly seems to have a lot of cultural inertia. Which brings me back to my original question, why?
 
paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 27442
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
bee chicken hugelkultur trees wofati woodworking
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
 
Jocelyn Campbell
master steward
Posts: 5612
Location: Missoula, MT
1059
books food preservation forest garden hugelkultur purity
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Just leaving this here. It's quite apropos after the January I've had.



 
Posts: 281
Location: Stone Garden Farm Richfield Twp., Ohio
9
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Using so called "adult" language has nothing to do with being an adult. It is simply using very poor language at a time in your life when there isn't a parent or other adult who can enforce your not using very poor language.

Swearing and cursing is a simple statement that you are either so inadequately educated, or so socially inept, that you have no real idea that you are being offensive. If what you have to say can only be conveyed with meaningless words, little better than vomiting sounds, then what you have to say may (for many people) call into doubt the value of what you say. "The Full Beauty of the Language" is not how profane we can make it. It is how beautifully we may speak or write it.   --But perhaps maybe asking a simple question would help. How much nicer is it to say: "I believe you may not have any idea of what you speak", than to say: "Ya ain't got no f...'ing clue"? Civility is always nicer. Using ugly words, swear words, profane words, does not make a person hipper or cooler or more cutting edge or funny or creative or smart sounding. They just (again for many people) create an image of a person who is just lazy, or really just not nice.
 
Jim Fry
Posts: 281
Location: Stone Garden Farm Richfield Twp., Ohio
9
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I read this post earlier this evening. Then retired to read a bit before sleep. And I came across this passage from the book "Cold Mountain".

"Ada sat and watched the fire and listened to it's pop and hiss, and later the brittle fall of its embers. She smelled the sweet woodsmoke and thought that it would be a measure of one's success at attending to the details of the world if one could identify trees by the scent of their smoke. It would be a skill one might happily aspire to master. There were many worse things to know. Things that did damage to others and eventually to oneself."

~~And so I got back up to read the passage to you. As a way of wondering why is it that we have come to a place in our society where the course and profane are thought to be funny or creative. There is such beauty in our world. There can be such beauty in our language. Why do we sometimes choose to make so little use of it?
 
Travis Johnson
pollinator
Posts: 2997
590
books cat chicken duck rabbit transportation trees woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
There is a place for language such as the F Word, but it should be used for emphasis only.

My wife Katie, she NEVER says a foul word, but when my ex-wife was going to take us to court...again...she let out a "That "effing itch"...and so I knew she was MAD!!! Interestingly enough, during the height of passion during amicable domestic relations, she will also scream out the word. Naturally as her husband...this does wonders for my ego! :-)

For people that just use the F word continuously, I feel bad for them because it is a display of their intellect. If they cannot find better words to convey their feelings, myself, and many other people tune them out. The F-word is just a filler word in most cases. Take them out of the sentence and it neither adds, nor subtracts from, what they say. Sad....

As a writer I love vocabulary and really feel sad people use the same worthless word over and over again. Would a writer be good if all they used was clichés? It is the same with everyday language.
 
pollinator
Posts: 885
Location: Victoria BC
79
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I got a good smile out of it, mid-flu.


I have some close friends who never use standard curse words... they use their own made-up phrases instead. Some of these are much grosser than 'conventional'...

I swear quite a bit. Like anything else, it can be done well or poorly, and for a variety of reasons. In my case the purpose is usually emphasis of an opinion, with a secondary goal of amusement. I don't strive to gross people out, and haven't needed to intimidate someone in a long time.. and it's only amusing if you're inventive about it.

I almost never swear at people. This is a different purpose, to insult and humiliate, and I rarely desire to do these things. Regrettably, the individuals I wish to swear at seem to inevitably be bureaucrats that I am stuck dealing with, where the satisfaction would not be worth whatever added bullshit they would come up with...


Travis, a favorite quote: "You can stop saying 'fuck', I know what we're doing!"
 
Travis Johnson
pollinator
Posts: 2997
590
books cat chicken duck rabbit transportation trees woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I thrive at being different...so I try to use other phrases for humor.

Sex: Amicable Domestic Relations (the faster you can say this, the funnier it sounds)

Bullshit: Bovine Pasture Droppings

Oh Shit: Cuckah Pants in the Snow (I have no idea how to spell Cuckah/Cucka/Kucka) and why it has t be in the snow is beyond me!

Oh Fuck: Suffering Balls on a Popsicle Stick (yes, that is indeed suffering, by why on a popsicle stick is again beyond me)
 
gardener
Posts: 2286
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio,Price Hill 45205
145
forest garden trees urban
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I got a chuckle from the title of the song,  but didn't watch.
I feel like I got the joke already.
That passage from that book seems nice,  but,  serves an entirely different purpose than the song.
I think there is room for both,  in fact there can be no profane to indulge in without a definite of the profound that is exclusionary and uptight.
Transgression cannot exist to be enjoyed without someone there to disapprove.

Jim, reactions like yours, frankly are part of what makes songs like that, enjoyable to others.
Juvenile? Yes, challenging norms is part of of the expected behavior of the young.



I have found that as I age,  many of the profanities of my 20s and 30s don't sit well.
I have become the source of disapproval,  rather than an eager transgressor.
When I say something sucks I feel the need to add,  "in the bad way"
Similarly, I no longer suggest that someone I don't like "suck my cock!"
That is an interaction they are unworthy of!

"Bugger Me!" also gets "in a bad way", because I'm not a fan,  but,  you know,  some people are.

Declaring something to be "of the devil!" is followed by "and not in a good way!"
See,  I've  been told that the rock-n-roll, and evolution and Pokemon, and women's rights,  and integration,  and other stuff I like are all of the devil,  so...

"Son of a bitch" feels disrespectful to women  in general,  I prefer to disrespect people  on a case by case basis.
Mother fucker, pretty much the same, plus it allegedly has roots in slavery.

Fuck,  and it's family of derived F words, shouldn't be considered profane at all, if one is "sex positive"

Rape,  otoh,is profane, but you would be better off dropping the F bomb, than trying to use rape in its place...

Damn it is pretty perfect still,  as I am not actually capable of damning anything to hell,  it seems safe.

Truthfully,  I've never been that much of a curser.
But I find using profanity in anger is much more demeaning to myself and others than tossing off curses casually.

 
Jim Fry
Posts: 281
Location: Stone Garden Farm Richfield Twp., Ohio
9
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
It is remarkable to me, William, that folks spend so much time and write at such length in order to try to justify vulgarity.

What do we teach our children, what do we convey to each other; when the language we use is filled with words that are course, thoughts that are low, demeaning utterances that tear down, offensive remarks that disgust?
Why do we spend such effort to shock or surprise, mortify or upset? Then, when we are questioned about such behavior, attempt to use the excuse that it is comedy or humor?

Language, any language, can be spoken in such beauty. It can lift up. It can convey love, hope, goodness and grace. ~Or it can strike!

With all the thousands of words we possess why do so many of us so easily fall to the lazy use of just 4 or 5 words of distaste. How much finer, how more effectively, can we convey our thoughts and desires and wishes and hopes, with words more music, and less of spit.

We here are permaculturalists. We seek a better way. We try to help Earth, and each other. We hope to do better, for the good of the present and betterment of the future. We plant seeds and grow life. We attempt a path that uplifts and heals the Plants and Animals and Soil and each other. ~~So why is it that in the one way that first presents ourselves to others, that we drip foulness from our mouths? We can do so much better. Our writing and words can live in such beauty, ……

..."He drifted in and out and dreamed a bright dream of home. It had a cold water spring rising out of rock, black dirt fields, old trees. In his dream the year seemed to be happening all at one time, all the seasons blending together. Apple trees hanging heavy with fruit but yet unaccountably blossoming, ice rimming the spring, okra plants blooming yellow and maroon, maple leaves red as October, corn tops tasseling, a stuffed chair pulled up to the parlor hearth, pumpkins shinning in the fields, laurels blooming on the hillsides, ditch banks full of orange jewelweed, white blossoms on dogwood, purple on redbud. Everything coming around at once. And there were white oaks, and a great number of crows, dancing and singing in the upper limbs."

~~How much better that, than words so foul that we oft use only their first letter. We do not need to justify that. We -can- do better.





 
pollinator
Posts: 8136
Location: Victoria British Columbia-Canada
611
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Most of my curse words are ones that I've made up. They are never filler words. They are for emphasis and directed at someone.

For instance, my young brother Brady is always blathering about religion while he works. Occasionally, I will look at him and say, "Jesus fuck, Brady, do you think anyone wants to hear that claptrap." I also have Jesus humping a lot of things. Holy Jesus, humping a goat or Holy Jesus humping Mary. These phrases are designed specifically to shut down those who want to turn my job site into a prayer meeting. It works. They would rather just have silence than have imaginary friends disrespected in that way, and that works for me.

 
Posts: 9
Location: Granada, Spain
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Great big pile of horseshit
 
Dillon Nichols
pollinator
Posts: 885
Location: Victoria BC
79
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Buut... are we talking a great big pile of fresh, stinky horseshit from heavily medicated horses fed herbicided and fertilized hay?

Or a nicely composted mountain of lovely garden enhancing goodness from well managed horses that had nothing but good organic hay and forage?

If it's the latter, bring it on by... I'll even chip in for trucking if it's not too far!
 
garden master
Posts: 3132
Location: Greater Houston, TX US Hardy:9a Annual Precipitation: 44.78" Wind:13.23mph Temperature:42.5-95F
1095
books forest garden greening the desert tiny house transportation urban
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I thought this was funny and appropriate for this thread! Hehe!


Source: All the Fucks Candle infused with Absolute Fuckery
 
Jim Fry
Posts: 281
Location: Stone Garden Farm Richfield Twp., Ohio
9
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I really do not understand why there are so many people who feel it needful to use such poor language.
Especially when such "language" can so easily be mistaken in negative ways.

~~~In this case, I wonder why the young woman's mother couldn't have advised her daughter to keep a: Freedom Account, or Independence Account, or Rainy Day Account, etc.
Instead of teaching her daughter the use of crudity, that some will laugh at, and others will blanche at.
Just why was that necessary?
Followed by people the daughter influences to continue to use such crudity?
Language can be so beautiful. Must we drag it through such unpleasantness?


Her mother had a fine idea. The daughter told a helpful story. It seems a shame to make it less.
 
pollinator
Posts: 473
Location: Ontario, Canada
92
homestead
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jim Fry wrote:I really do not understand why there are so many people who feel it needful to use such poor language.
Especially when such "language" can so easily be mistaken in negative ways.

~~~In this case, I wonder why the young woman's mother couldn't have advised her daughter to keep a: Freedom Account, or Independence Account, or Rainy Day Account, etc.
Instead of teaching her daughter the use of crudity, that some will laugh at, and others will blanche at.
Just why was that necessary?
Followed by people the daughter influences to continue to use such crudity?
Language can be so beautiful. Must we drag it through such unpleasantness?


Her mother had a fine idea. The daughter told a helpful story. It seems a shame to make it less.



This is what you posted in the "Do we really want to be pioneers or homesteaders" thread:

Jim Fry wrote:I believe you all ay be getting way too hung up words.

 
It's just like a fortune cookie, but instead of a cookie, it's pie. And we'll call it ... tiny ad:
Soil Testing: Genius or Snapshot of the ever-changing?
https://permies.com/t/113090/Soil-Testing-Genius-Snapshot-changing
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!