Does Everyone Really Map and Chart and Graph?

I see images and videos of Permaculture homesteads and farms and I love them!

And I read Permaculture books and they seem so exciting!

But it seems that for anything to be "real" permaculture, it involves a lot of this:



Ugggggghhhhhh....

Do I really have to make six or seven maps and all that for my 1/4 acre? And if I do have to, how can I see it as something fun?

I don't do it.  I pick a spot, make a guild of whatever tree and surrounding plants I like, and then repeat.  Sooner or later they will all touch each other, and then it will be a complete food forest.  My paths figure themselves out.  Planning ever last detail out is probably a good way to go for people that can do it, but like you said, it isn't fun for me.  My haphazard approach fits my personality.

Permaculture for me means working with nature, including my nature.  It sounds like you are more like me.  My advice is to have fun, make your gardens and food forest, make your life better with permaculture, rather than letting it become a chore.  You can make your piece of the world better and enjoy yourself at the same time.

I make a map of my fruit trees to keep track of where everything is (see attached). Mapping everything took a few hours, but I find it worth it for when one of the tags inevitably falls off the trees. Also, it was kind of fun using a drone to make a high resolution map of my house.

I find that even a crude sketch helps to solidify the image that I've constructed in my mind, and often reveals possibilities and pitfalls that didn't show up in the mental image. Things like "whoops, if I build garden bed A like that, it makes wheelbarrow access to bed B a real pain".

It's also much easier to shuffle ideas on paper than in reality. Back in the days of the tiny college apartment, I would make a scale drawing of the floor plan and cut out scaled rectangles of paper for the furniture and shelves. Shuffling the little scraps of paper to come up with an ideal arrangement was quick and much easier than shoving the actual furniture around and hitting those inevitable "maybe the couch should go over there" moments.

I don't think it's strictly necessary.  But it's helpful and interesting!   There are other ways to "observe" and document than maps and graphs and charts, etc.   Do what works for you, and for your understanding of the principles for where you are and what your property goals are.  

I made a simple hand-sketch of the location of my fruit trees and berry bushes for the purpose of keeping track of what variety is where. I don't get involved with graph paper and protractors. I second Trace's notion to do what works for you, and if you're not being called to or feel enthusiastic about making a map or chart, skip it.

I suspect even the elaborate map makers never have it go exactly to plan.  Something will always die and sometimes something will surprise you by thriving in what was supposed to be only a temporary spot.  Even the planners adapt to life.

I did one time mark out my backyard using an A frame and little flags but it was activity part of planning where to add some shallow swales in my backyard.  I marked level lines and then dig. There is one change I would make if I did it over and maybe a more meticulous planner would have caught my issue before digging, but they do what I need them to.

Nope. I've planned, with map sketches, but it never worked out quite the way it looked on paper, things change... my approach is very much more like Trace's: "This spot looks good - Ima Duit!".

Seems to me in many cases with small earthworks where we give ample leeway for extreme westher events, the main measurement that really matters is being level, or sloped in the direction we want. In those cases, I find it very fun to play around with moving earth, rock and wood to make water move, or stay still, how I want it to. It’s a lot like building moats for a sandcastle. Usually I am trying to slow, spread and sink water, or get it off a road or trail to somewhere I can do that. Making water meander and move more passively and beneficially through the landscape is fun and meditative at the same time.

[insert ol’ curmudgeon voice]
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, a beaver’s work is dam rewarding!

I do it all and I think it's really fun! Really! But it's what I do in December and January when there's not much to do outside and I'm dying to be growing things and can't. So I start building my air castles.

Also I found I was spending way too much money buying plants that in the long run didn't have a great place to go. Like someone else mentioned, playing around in paper is way easier (and cheaper) than digging holes and then having to dig new holes.

Now that I have lots of different and less common varieties of perennials, I find it's also important for me to keep track of the names and where I bought them, the year I planted them, and the location.

But once I'm actually out working in the garden, a lot of my winter planning for annuals goes out the window and I randomly stick my over abundance of seedlings in whatever nook and cranny is conveniently weed free.

Spontaneity sometimes works great, like my random broccoli that grew perennially for 5+years next to the walkway to the front door (just snap off a little floret to nibble every time we come and go). Sometimes bad like the extra squash I stuck in my raised beds in a little gap last year that overgrew the entire plot and made it a challenge to pick any of the vegetables. And sometimes both good and bad, like the artichokes I didn't expect to survive the winter and now overgrow half of the side of the walkway each summer but I don't want to move because they are just so happy in that spot.

The way I do it, is to make spread sheets on the computer and just save a copy to match each year with any changes. So the initial formatting took a while but now it's really easy for me to update my plans each year.

Also you can print out a picture from Google maps and draw on it and that's a super easy and accurate way to brainstorm some plans.

Edit to add:
Here are some pictures of a few of my plans-
https://permies.com/t/174517/garden-plan-Garden-Master

OP wrote:Do I really have to make six or seven maps and all that for my 1/4 acre?

Let's find out together!  What is the definition of "permaculture design" according to, say, Bill Mollison?

Mollison on page 36 of the PADM wrote:Definition of Permaculture Design
Permaculture design is a system of assembling conceptual, material, and strategic components in a pattern which functions to benefit life in all its forms.  It seeks to provide a sustainable and secure place for living things on this earth.

Well, I don't see anything about "Permaculture design shall include at least one fancy-shmancy map."  So if you're your own client, then do permaculture design in whichever way suits your fancy, of course!  Besides, permaculture design is for "life in all its forms" and I don't think the trees and bugs and animals will mind at all whether we can draw a beautiful map or not.

That said, we do seek to meet needs, and that requires understanding the spatial needs of living elements.  For instance, a common mistake in forest garden design is not allowing plants enough space to thrive; and though I suspect it would be challenging to abide by the "Crowns Touching Rule" without drawing a quick map, it certainly wouldn't be impossible.  (Some string and movable pegs could be used to test distances directly on the design site, without mapping first.)



As a designer, are there other design options in addition to mapping?  
If we go back to Bill in Chapter 3, "Methods of Design", we learn the answer, a resounding "Yes!" as he includes a full section for at least 8 different methods of design available to the designer:

ANALYSIS
OBSERVATION
DEDUCTION FROM NATURE
OPTIONS AND DECISIONS
DATA OVERLAY
RANDOM ASSEMBLY
FLOW DIAGRAMS
ZONE AND SECTOR ANALYSIS

And if I do have to, how can I see it as something fun?

Back in 3rd grade I *loved* doodling in MS paint.  And I fondly recall taking an engineering drafting class back in high school.  After college I had fun with Google products and Sketchup, and lately I have been enjoying Inkscape.  Apparently I genuinely love the attention to detail drafting involves.  But that's just me.  So if the challenge of drafting in detail alone doesn't suit you...

Some things that can make mapping more fun:

Colors!  I recently had fun using colored pencils on a garden map, and Google Slides is very easy to add fun shapes and colors quickly.

Using fun landscaping templates.

Mixing medium.  For the Six Sisters Garden Map below, I started out with a basemap of the design site I drew on an chunk of scrap cardboard, then I used paper cut outs for playing with the arrangement of raised beds, and lastly I took a picture of the basemap.  I used Google Slides shapes to enable flexibility in design.  Google Slides were helpful when communicating quickly with clients and stakeholders.  The digital nature enabled quick edits and changes on site.

Collaboration.  Speaking of clients, inviting others to partake in the design process may add stress, but it could also be a lot of fun as you develop great design concepts together.

Speed. The longer you spend on a project, the less novel and fun it may become.  One medium people could use to make a design quickly is chalk.  It might be great for quick back and forth prototyping, and a Chalk and Talk Table could have cardboard cutout models to play around with, too.

Learning a new skill.  Inkscape and Sketchup were mentioned as examples.  Here's an example of an orchard site design I'm considering, which I drew in Inkscape.  I'm excited because the spiral patterns of the design site are already beginning to be visible from satellite!

https://permies.com/t/159680/a/138749/Spiral-Orchard.png


Even if it isn't fun, it may be very important:
On my latest design project, the Six Sisters Garden, I found the challenge of drawing to scale both necessary and enjoyable.  I wanted to ensure proper access for emergency vehicles, and good spacing for foot paths.  I also needed to know the right amount of materials to purchase.  The map ensured that my garden design wouldn't feel empty and sparse, yet it also enables enough "blank space" for community events or temporary tables to be added.  With the map, I knew beforehand the general or final placement of elements, and that the plants will have sufficient space years from now, and people will still be able to navigate around them without getting poked in the eye.  It saved time on site.  With these new raised beds we just built from scratch, the map gives me reassurance that the placement of the beds will get sufficient sun during early spring months.  So while maps aren't essential, they sure are valuable!

I only did this for the initial planning. Mostly to see how many of the fruit trees could fit and how to space them. After that, it was just filling in the gaps without fussing over graphing it all out.

I'd imagine the reason why mapping things out is so prevalent might be in part because of PDC's. They often have people plan things out to show they understand the concepts they are trying to learn. Some teachers may be sticklers on the math side, while other might be fine with a more South Park approach to layout.

There's no reason you can't cut out pictures or shapes to roughly plan things out for yourself. Maybe sit at a table with spice jars to use them as stand-ins for plants and take a photo for later reference. Some people might prefer to just go outside and put plant pots or some other marker down to help visualize how things will work out in 3D space. Again, pictures would likely be helpful.

If you take a PDC and try to sell your designs to other people, I'd imagine most of them would want a design on paper before they unleash you on their property. With planting, it may not be as big a deal if you can juggle everything in your head, but I certainly wouldn't let anyone with an excavator loose on my land without a very detailed plan in advance.

And that brings up another point - excavator operators often aren't familiar with permaculture and might not comprehend your reasoning for doing uncommon earthworks to the point they may go rogue thinking they are helping. Giving them plans and making sure they understand they are not to deviate from said plan if they want to get paid can help avoid counterproductive earthworks.

I started thinking about my garden in terms of interactions, functions, needs, products, and other characteristics last night. I tried writing it out in my journal... but the depth I want to go into for this becomes a bit difficult to manage on paper, so I just downloaded some mindmap software. We'll see what I get out of it!

Mindmaps are not going to be good for physical mapping, but for conceptual stuff like interactions it could be a very helpful organizational tool.

Can't do it, won't do it for a number of reasons.  First it sounds really tedious for me.  Second, when I have a plan my brain treats it less as a goal and more an unbreakable commitment so I agonize and stress and become rigid and try to make the outside world look like a 3D version of the 'paper' map we drew.

We moved our annual garden this year to a completely different site which makes WAY more sense.  I know most people could just update their plans, but again my brain would really struggle since that wasn't part of the original plan.

So basically, my brain is obsessive - which serves me well in a great number of ways - so it's my job to figure out how to guide that obsessiveness to healthy outlets and mapping out our property would not be healthy for me.

I don’t, but it is for a different reason than most.  My wife has virtually zero mapping skills. She cannot transfer concepts from paper to real life.   Therefore, we have to walk the area in question where I put in markers indicating what we decided on.

I see both points

It has its place but far too many people do nothing but talk and plan what they are going to do, with never putting boots on the ground.

Myself, I have always planned things out with maps and farm plans, and I think it has served me well.

I like to even do a scale model of certain areas to get an idea of topography. That really helps me to see where all the water is going and why

George Yacus wrote:What is the definition of "permaculture design" according to, say, Bill Mollison?

Mollison on page 36 of the PADM wrote:Definition of Permaculture Design
Permaculture design is a system of assembling conceptual, material, and strategic components in a pattern which functions to benefit life in all its forms.  It seeks to provide a sustainable and secure place for living things on this earth.

Well, I don't see anything about "Permaculture design shall include at least one fancy-shmancy map."  So if you're your own client, then do permaculture design in whichever way suits your fancy, of course!  Besides, permaculture design is for "life in all its forms" and I don't think the trees and bugs and animals will mind at all whether we can draw a beautiful map or not.

As a designer, are there other design options in addition to mapping?  
If we go back to Bill in Chapter 3, "Methods of Design", we learn the answer, a resounding "Yes!" as he includes a full section for at least 8 different methods of design available to the designer:

ANALYSIS
OBSERVATION
DEDUCTION FROM NATURE
OPTIONS AND DECISIONS
DATA OVERLAY
RANDOM ASSEMBLY
FLOW DIAGRAMS
ZONE AND SECTOR ANALYSIS

This!

A Professional probably uses software to map out his/her client's proposal.  If I hired a permaculture designer I would question their ability if they did not make a map, charts, and graphs.

Since I am not a professional, I still have been doing this for years for both vegetable and flower gardens.

Like me, I would imagine that professionals sometimes while working with a client make changes several times.

You questioned how to make it fun, but I think that is all about personality type and how you think and make plans best.

Even as a child I found it great fun to tape several pieces of paper together and draw out maps and plans for gardens and houses. I could imagine all the things I could not turn into reality- yet! And many decades later I still think it is a lot of fun to plan out on paper by drawing maps. It's like art and puzzles mixed together with science and geography and it's just plain ol' fun.... for me, that is.

One kind of charting I should do and don't because it seems so boring and tedious to me is weighing and counting and recording my yield from my garden every year. I know why I should and I agree that it is a good thing to do but I just don't wanna! 😜 So boring! But I know other people really enjoy doing that.

Personally, I loved doing this when I was in the planning stage and here's why...As you can see, I live in Vermont where winter is almost half the year.  To look out my upstairs window and envision lovely full grown fruit trees and bushes when, in reality, the ground was a blank slate of snow, helped get me through the doldrums of winter!  A great deal of time was spent just envisioning and dreaming.  The plants were fully grown and leafed out in my mind's eye.

For me, it was quite important to do because I was limited on space, and I wanted to get all, or at least most, of my plants at once--I'm not getting any younger and some of the trees would take a number of years before fruition. I'm still waiting on most of them.  It was kind of like doing a jigsaw puzzle because I needed to know that they would all fit.

I did a general sketch of the shape of the garden. At this point, the front yard was still all (snow-covered) grass, which in spring I'd rent a sod cutter and have lifted out, but I needed to see how deep (south to north) the garden needed to be to accommodate all of the fruit trees, figuring their mature size.  If you have acres and acres to play with, maybe a plan would not be needed, but I have one acre total and it's within a village setting right on a scenic highway.  It was going to go the length of my front yard along the sidewalk on its south and the driveway on its east.  

There was an existing "side garden" on the west between my neighbors and me that includes a Leonard Messel magnolia, some viburnums, dogwood and rhododendrons and the like. It runs south to north perpendicular to the sidewalk and is sort of a woodland garden because the neighbors have a giant oak the shades that area.  A lot of the time I spent planning was spent just observing and dreaming.  I watched shadows and envisioned new shadows and envisioned full sized versions of all the plants I'd be growing.  I wanted the two areas to meld into one continuous garden that curved around from the front to the side yard.  Accounting for the shadier aspect, I knew that this would be a good place for things like currants and lingonberries.  Lots of observation and thinking time was crucial...and enjoyable.  I found that this raised a lot of good questions that I needed to research about certain plants.  

I knew the shorter stuff would go in the front (south) near the sidewalk while the trees would go on the north side. I didn't get too fussy and plan out where I would plant the strawberries as they were to be my groundcover and the runners jump all over the place anyway. Nor did I worry too much about the perennials as I could plunk them in around and amongst the larger things--many flowering perennials would be between the serviceberries and the sidewalk for the benefit of people passing...and, honestly, people walking dogs and them wanting to pee--not really keen of my food being spritzed with urine!  

By mapping it out, I knew I could use 50 Regent serviceberries and an equal number of asparagus crowns.  Just reading about spacing helped me with the ordering numbers.  The frontage is 120' or so.  Looking out the window at the  barren landscape is much easier than when it's summer and I'm distracted by growing things!  Visualizing the plants as one long expanse made me realize that I needed to break the length in halves.  In my mind vision, I placed an arbor in the middle. Upon it, I could plant any number of choices. I went with pink roses.  Once sketched out, I could really consider all of the plant interactions--how one would affect another.  Considerations were things like shade or ease in harvest or overall spread and height.  I even considered the variations of bloom or fall color!

Because I mapped it out, I realized that there wasn't room for everything.  I ended up putting some of the more unruly things out back like elderberries, mulberries and hazelnuts. As far as trees, I knew that I wanted to use the Grow a Little Fruit Tree method.  I'll be turning 65 this September, and am not keen on climbing ladders to prune or harvest!   This also let me fit much more into my front yard.  I have three apple trees, an Autumn Brilliance serviceberry, three pawpaws, two persimmon, a cherry, two figs, a medlar and probably other things I'm forgetting. Some of the trees will be much taller than what I can reach, but they drop their fruit once ripe, so I will have a nice variety of heights.

There are lots of fruiting shrubs as well.  For me, being this space is "on display," I planted for visual interest and color as well, trying to spread that out.  I do have lots of perennials and bulbs interspersed as wildlife attractors and repellers.  (Garlic and daffs)  I also took into consideration the window of blooms and harvest, so that there was always something blooming and something ready to harvest.  The honeyberries, rhubarb, clove currants and asparagus are among the first and I'll end the year with pawpaws, persimmons and medlar.  Surprisingly, I've been harvesting strawberries until November.  As you can see, there were many goals that I wanted this garden to achieve: color, blooming and fruiting span, size and attractiveness to wildlife or not.   The mapping aspect was crucial because I had limited room in which to accomplish all of these desires.  

When planting time came, I did make a few minor tweaks, but for the most part, I was really pleased with how straight-forward it was.  I referred to the map often and things went in very quickly.  I think I would have been lost without it; after all, it took me hours of thought, consideration and revision with just graph paper and circles!  It can be very deceptive to plant a stick and really have a good idea of the size it will become.  I remember reading in Grow a Little Fruit Tree how the author states that at her nursery, people really have no idea the actual size of what a small or dwarf 20' tree really looks like.  She went on to say that even she never really got a good grasp on that!  Having it on a map takes out all of the emotion.  It just takes the room it takes and not what you want it to be!

Yeah, I think mapping and the tech work on a map, is important. Especially for a property an acre or larger. More so with “acreage”.
Nobody has to do anything they don’t want to, obviously.

But I think it helps especially with the big picture…with looking at contour lines, water flows, shade and sun, topography, cold spots, sunny spots, entrance, exit, paths, *zones*, grazing areas, silvopasture, etc. And their relation to each other and the property at large.

I find it equally important to go out and look and be on the land, too though. They are both necessary and important.

I love the visualization too. It helps me think and allows me to get super creative with what I can put there. Then I can go and look at the reality and see if it works too.

I also do details of sections though. Again it really helps.

Here’s a fenceline project I visualized, just to get a rhythm that I hope will also be in the final. [Actually I’m removing the attachment, sorry,  because I just realized this is a very public forum, not just limited to folks here…]

I used a program called garden planner 2, to plan my two gardens. I am a visual learner and planner. It’s just how my brain works. I am also very bad at spatial awareness. I can literally get lost in my bedroom, without light.
By using the program after measuring out the dimensions of my two gardens, it was so much easier to figure out what and how much I have room for. The program also lets me see it in 3d and I can print a list of plants and of course the garden plan. All trees and shrubs has pre programmed sizes, which prevents me from long term over crowding the forest garden.
I can add plants to the beds in my raised bed garden, which helps me determine how many plants I have room for in each bed.
So, I think it depends on how your brain works. My son would not need it, since he has an exceptional, spatial awareness, but I do.
It’s also a memory tool for me. I often forget what I plant and or where I have planted it. This leads to confusion and frustration, but the problem is solved with the program.
So, all in all it’s a good tool for those who needs it.

It depends...the perennial answer.

Two years on, I'm sure the original poster either made a map of their property...or didn't.

I really appreciate George's answer.

I think there are a few important principles, a number of which have already been touched on.

First, if we are going to make a map / plan, who is it for?  As noted, for taking a PDC, creating layouts is an important part of being able to communicate an idea, particularly with respect to land.  A PDC student attempting to earn a PDC certificate needs to be able to communicate their ideas to the instructor / mentor as evidence that they understood the concepts that were taught and can apply constraints to their design.  If you need others to help implement your design, whether friends and/or family in a permaculture blitz, or professionals you hire to implement part of your plan, then some representation is crucial.  Of course, if you are designing for someone else, the map or layout is likely necessary as part of the deliverable of the design.  Would you want someone to just start building without and architect's or engineer's blueprint to guide them?

Another item is how we see things and understand them.  Some people can see and understand a layout and others don't really get it.  We're all different.

Observe and interact - this is a key principle.  If you've been on a property for some time, long enough to have seen what happens in various seasons and conditions like moisture, water flow, sun and shadows and such, and you are doing the project for yourself, then perhaps you don't need one.  

As others have noted, it can also be a long term tool to keep track of what is done, what is yet to be done, and what is where.  It's also something that may be quite appreciated when the property changes hands at some point in the future.  

Now, I hope I don't type this too harshly...a map or layout is not a permaculture design in and of itself.  It can be a tool to help visualize what is happening on the property (such as water flow, shade, etc) and it can be a communication device to help someone else understand what the plan is.  It can be a visual of part of your design, but permaculture isn't just about designing a garden along certain principles.  Store and capture energy is another permaculture principle - it could be difficult to represent things like elevation changes and that impact on design that has (water flows downhill, or being able to plan your rounds / chores by moving on contour than uphill and downhill and back).  Of course, the more complex, and the larger the design becomes, the more important this can be.  Imagine if Wheaton Labs, in the mountains of western Montana, didn't take elevation into account.

Part of the question was how to make it fun.  That also depends on what is fun to you.  For some people, sketching with pencil and paper and a geometry set is fun, for others it may be a computerized design tool, for others, cutout representations, for others a diorama (paper mache, clay / play dough, Lego, or other materials) may be fun.  It seems to me I've seen, or perhaps heard of, someone creating a layout in Minecraft.  For folks in a relationship or family, perhaps working something out together could be fun (and the others may take more ownership if they were involved).

For me, looking at a layout of our plantings and gardens, I work with She Who Must Be Obeyed.  If we don't have a plan communicated as to what goes where, we often wind up with one disappointed that something didn't wind up where they think it ought to go (or where it was in their mind's eye).  I'm trying to use an online garden planning tool called Seedtime.  I've got some of our layout done, but it's more than that as you can also input your crops (and there's a planning calculator that can suggest how much of something you want to plant) and it will suggest when to plant, transplant, or harvest based on your growing zone and average frost dates.  If I can get the layout there completed, then it's another planning tool in our toolbelt and can conceivably reduce some family feuding.