Do humans really need supplements, etc?

Hello!

I was looking for a forum to post this and thought, hmp, I bet permies is a great place to.

I was thinking about nature and thinking about the human body lately - and I was thinking, do we REALLY need supplements? I don't think animals in nature are living off supplements, all I see is nature living off the bare minimum. I don't see bunnies brewing up concoctions XD lol

Here's where I'm using observation or pattern recognition maybe. In a pattern sense, you could say it's a pattern that natural life tends to just eat whatever they can eat, and get by just like that... but humans on the other hand go WAYYY in the other direction and supplement our diet with "healthier" nutrition as a supplement, etc. I'm not saying don't eat organic food or grass fed beef, or wild caught salmon, quiet the opposite as I'm all for it - but I'm just saying do I really need to be eating in a supplemental manner?

Now I understand it is important to eat whole food, as in nature there's also no processing plants, per say*** except compost is a processing plant in of itself... so, maybe processing plants are practical? (Another topic starter)

HOWEVER: it could be a double edged sword, this topic, perhaps both supplementing diet is good and not good. maybe it just depends?

HOWEVER: it could also not be a double edge sword

The reason I'm talking about this is because I started to feel a little tired lately, maybe from work... but I'm thinking to myself, do I need some supplements, and then I thought you know what, that just doesn't sound right to me right now-  I should feel fine regardless on an average diet or eating at least once or twice a day and getting a little bit of water, right?

now I do NOT work out - that could also potentially be a contributor. I'm also applying the same principal to working out, do I really NEED to work out? I do mountain bike for fun, but besides that I don't get down and lift weights and do a bunch of squats, I just don't find it appealing for some reason.

one last side note: I understand some humans (and life in general) becomes broken sometimes, and at those times supplments and so fourth are a necessity*** here I'm excluding the abnormality of those instances.

Amir said, "Now I understand it is important to eat whole food, as in nature there's also no processing plants, per say*** except compost is a processing plant in of itself... so, maybe processing plants are practical? (Another topic starter)

This!  Eating whole foods, especially fruits, and vegetables.

Eating a balanced diet.

Here, what I have found is the doctor push vitamins.

My dentist wanted me to take B vitamins.  Then, it was suggested that I take prenatal vitamins so I would have a healthy baby.

Eating fruits and vegetables and other nutrients and maybe humans don't really need supplements...

Bryant said, "No matter which "nutrient" you choose, you are leaving out so much of the necessary for life compounds that death would be imminent, the only question is how long before you succumb.

S Bengi said, "Air =  a few minutes until death
Water = a few days until death happens
Food = a few weeks until death happens.
Carbs = a lifetime without once we past infancy
Fat = 6 months
Protein = 2 months
Vitamin =  A few fat soluble vitamins we can do without for up to a year, water soluble ones I am not too sure about.

https://permies.com/t/93941/kitchen/nutrients-important-protein-fiber-vitamins

My assumption is that people who eat from boxes and plastic bags probably want for certain compounds that people who eat from their garden do not. Some supplements provide some of those compounds. In general, I suspect the standard industrial diet provides most of the well-documented nutritive compounds (along with too much salt and calories, at least), but the 10,000 poorly understood phytonutrients are only available from fresh produce.

People living in northern climates (and especially north of 60°) may find the need for vitamin d supplements (especially individuals with darker skin). Some individuals have absorption issues that necessitate supplementation. Some people absorb iron poorly, b12 absorption drops off as people get older.

The real answer is "you cannot drop 7 billion people in a group and say yes or no on supplements being a necessity."

I recently heard a really interesting thing about vitamin D. Genetic studies have shown that the first people who moved into Scandinavia after the Ice Age were dark-skinned. Today people living in Scandinavia are mostly very light-skinned (and thus susceptible to skin cancer from sun exposure). Before, I always assumed that the shift in skin colour was gradual and started as soon as people moved north, to maximise vitamin D production. According to what I heard this wasn't the case, but rather people stayed dark-skinned until they took up agriculture and then relatively quickly became pale. Supposedly, this was due to a drastic drop in dietary vitamin D (from fish liver and the like) which the people got in abundance as long as they were hunting and gathering, but that the early agricultural diet apparently didn't contain much of. I don't know if this is conclusively proven or just a theory, but I think it makes a lot of sense.

I suppose supplements are just a fancy word for stuff we eat to make a deficient diet less deficient. I doubt the early Scandinavians considered fish liver a "supplement". It was just part of their normal diet. If our regular food gave us everything we needed, there wouldn't be any need for supplementing it.

Amir Khayyat wrote:I was thinking about nature and thinking about the human body lately - and I was thinking, do we REALLY need supplements? I don't think animals in nature are living off supplements, all I see is nature living off the bare minimum. I don't see bunnies brewing up concoctions XD lol

In the wild, no, but put a bunny in a cage and feed it junk food, and it will not get all the nutrients it needs.

The reason I'm talking about this is because I started to feel a little tired lately, maybe from work... but I'm thinking to myself, do I need some supplements, and then I thought you know what, that just doesn't sound right to me right now-  I should feel fine regardless on an average diet or eating at least once or twice a day and getting a little bit of water, right?

Everyone's different. I make liver pate from birds I raise my self. When I feel a bit tired, I consider - hmmm... might my iron be a bit low? Maybe? Then let's get some liver pate out of the freezer for lunch for a few days.

Taking a pill is easier than making liver pate, and many humans have been raised to take the "easy way", but my liver pate will have a *lot* more than just iron in it, so maybe it's not even the iron that my body needed? Personally, I don't care so long as it has the effect I want/need. If it doesn't, I move on to some other potential problem.

That said, food grown in depleted soil, may not have the same levels of micronutrients as healthy soil does. Many of our ancestors had a much more varied diet which included wild greens that also may have had extra nutrients. I always try to add a couple of dandelion leaves along with homegrown herbs when I make my bone broth (usually from my own animals, but a hunter friend sometimes has extra deer bones for me.) I'm counting on my bone broth with weeds and herbs in it to take the place of "multivitamins" of which there is some evidence of going right through our digestive tracks!

now I do NOT work out - that could also potentially be a contributor.  ... but besides that I don't get down and lift weights and do a bunch of squats, I just don't find it appealing for some reason.

I agree with both parts of this. I try to get my exercise by doing things outdoors, like gardening, walking to the field, chasing ducks etc. I try to connect the exercise my body needs, with things I like or need to do. I have one friend who's about a mile from me, so I try to ride my bike when I visit. I'd like to get an electric bike and fix up our old bike trailer, so that if I need to take stuff or bring stuff home, I can still bike it instead of using a car. The electric bit would just be for one hill that's too steep for me.

one last side note: I understand some humans (and life in general) becomes broken sometimes, and at those times supplements and so fourth are a necessity*** here I'm excluding the abnormality of those instances.

I also agree with this. Age alone can have this affect. Surprising, I've read some evidence that having too much of one thing, like calcium, in your diet, may cause problems if the other building blocks are missing (Vit D and Magnesium in my case). Not all people absorb things with the same efficiency, and not all people need the same quantities. I know I need more magnesium than I can easily get in my diet, so if I start getting leg cramps, I supplement at bedtime.

I also think that making homemade foods like Sauerkraut, out of quality veggies,  makes certain minerals more accessible to your gut. Some preparation methods, like nixtamalized corn, actually creates some of the Vitamins we need through Kitchen Chemistry. As Eino Kenttä suggests,  human diets deteriorated a lot when they turned to farming. Both their health and their life-spans appear to have declined from when they were hunter-gatherers. Currently, lifespans in many areas of the world have increased due to better health care, but there are clear signs that with soil depletion and lack of exercise, this is already reversing again.

Personally, there is no one answer to any of this. I try to listen to my body and I try to keep expanding my diet into less industrialized foods/varieties. Where fruit and veg are involved, I personally believe that bigger and sweeter aren't "better"!  But it's not something most people can change overnight. It's a journey that I've embarked on, and hope that others around me will try as well!

Coming from a northern latitude, I can confirm that in my experience Vitamin D supplements are worthwhile. We have plenty of sun when high pressure systems roll down off the Arctic, but parading around in my birthday suit at -30C is ... problematic.

Elsewhere on this site, someone suggested that unprocessed lanolin from sheep, straight from shearing, has a lot of Vitamin D. I can't find a credible source to corroborate that, but it's an interesting idea nonetheless.

That is actually an enormously complicated question. And would most properly require several really good books to answer.

But here's a starting point. Gardening really is not about growing plants. The best gardening is "growing" soil. Where the plants (the food you eat) come from determines how nutritious the plants are. Simply put, what goes in is what comes out. If your soil is missing basic minerals and such, there is nothing there for the plants to take up. And if that mineral is not in the plant you eat, you will be needing to get that mineral some other way (by supplement or other plant). If you want to live your best and most healthy life, you first need to be sure your soil is the best and most healthy soil.

Commercially grown fruits, animals, vegetables ain't going to do it for you. Organically growing won't either. Permaculture gardening is much more likely to. But here's comes the "book reading" part. Once you have really good soil and really good and healthy plants, then you have to make sure you are eating the right combinations and quantities of foods, to have a complete diet. Do that, and you're probably good. If not, there's a pretty good chance you might need some other form of supplementation.

Amir Khayyat wrote:Hello!
I was thinking about nature and thinking about the human body lately - and I was thinking, do we REALLY need supplements? I don't think animals in nature are living off supplements, all I see is nature living off the bare minimum. I don't see bunnies brewing up concoctions XD lol

Even the whole foods we eat are usually washed and rinsed before we get them. A bunny in the wild is often eating dirty food right off the ground. Dirt has a lot of minerals in it, so the supplemental may be replacing some of the stuff that is lost when food is washed. In some cases, people even purposefully eat dirt. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/would-you-like-side-dirt-eating-soil/

I suppose supplements are just a fancy word for stuff we eat to make a deficient diet less deficient. I doubt the early Scandinavians considered fish liver a "supplement". It was just part of their normal diet. If our regular food gave us everything we needed, there wouldn't be any need for supplementing it.

Yes, what is a supplement? I take freeze dried liver in capsules. Liver is food. Dried food reconstituted in water(such as those soup packets or camping meals) is considered food. So is my liver supplement actually food? Or does the fact it’s in a capsule make it a supplement?

What about about herbs? Is parsley a supplement? Most would say no, because its often used in meals. But what about chamomile tea used for sleep or stress? What if the chamomile is in a capsule?

In Chinese cuisine the line between food and supplements gets quite blurry since they have many dishes which use Chinese medicinal herbs. You can get soup with ginseng in it for example. And these dishes will be recommend based on their medicinal uses.

Amir Khayyat wrote:
… I don't think animals in nature are living off supplements, all I see is nature living off the bare minimum…

one last side note: I understand some humans (and life in general) becomes broken sometimes, and at those times supplments and so fourth are a necessity*** here I'm excluding the abnormality of those instances.

Don’t chickens favor different plants when they are sick than when they are healthy? I feel like I’ve heard that animals tend to know which plants to go for to aid in healing. I think getting sick isn’t “abnormal” at all, even chronic illness. I hunt, and deer get all kinds of chronic illnesses that waste away at them slowly(or quickly). The most famous these days being chronic wasting disease. Now in the case of CWD, I don’t know that any particular plant is going to save them. My point is that animals have chronic illness in the wild. The fact that weakened animals often quickly die due to being easy targets for predators(including microscopic ones) can make it feel like animals are all perfectly healthy. That deer that’s missing a leg probably won’t last long.

All living beings are in a constant fight against parasites, viruses, bacteria, etc. Antimicrobial “herbs” can be a life changer/saver against these things and usually people put them in the supplement category. I believe most ilnesses have a strong infection component to them, whether the illness is rooted in infection or not. I think abnormal is normal, even in the wild. So, if there is such a thing as supplements, then I would say they are necessary.

The answer is "no".

If you have a big Garden with all stuff growing that allows you a balanced diet, plus you can forage in a wide surrounding, then you are fine.
You might pass an apple tree with healthy apples, because you feel to have a carrot or want to butcher a chicken.

The answer is may be "yes"

Because many peeps living the "rat race" have no time for a garden or foraging or raising animals to get their balanced diet.
These people are (may be) better off when they have supplements.

Unfortunately every producer will sell their stuff and highly praise the benefits for you body and the people have also not the time to check what supplements they are lacking.
They will just read the label and think "it is good for me so I'll try it"

The outcome is that many over boost their immune system, which works the opposite and weakens the immune system actually, because the body turns lazy.
Why should the body produce beneficial supplements when they come in overloads through the stomach?

In our family (from the German as also from the Thai side), we are eating guided by our appetite and not because it is convenient.
If I feel I like to have an Orange then I eat one and also if I am into Chocolate I don't mind having a Chocolate bar and if I am on for a huge size complete dinner, well, then it has to be cooked...

The Appetite is an instinct which are nothing else than sent information from your body to your brain, telling what is lacking in the moment.

So the market for supplements will never die as long the producers tell you or showing some nice pictures which suggest nothing else as: You are weak, pale, your digestion is screwed up, you can't sleep and and you are stressed, "you need" this for a healthier lifestyle...

Your well stocked garden does literally the same like a producer of supplements, but it does it without aggressive marketing strategies how good is it for you at this moment.
A nice red and sweet carrot lurking out of the soil? Nay not now. May be a nice green slightly bitter cucumber? Oh yes, I fancy that one....

Hard to say if they are needed but for me,
I am not even bothering to stop in the supermarket at the shelf and read the names of the supplements and what they are good for.

My Grand Grand Parents, Grandparents, Parents, myself and also my in Laws became all 89 till 96 years and all had their homestead, hence I got mine too...

Ask any sailor from about 9000 BC to the year 1920, and ask them how prevalent Scurvy was? For whatever reason, Humans and Hamsters are the only animals that require Vitamin C, but we do. The polar explorers never understood why Scurvy was such an issue inland, but not when out by the open ocean, not realizing their food derived there had just enough Vitamin C in it to take away the Scurvy Symptoms. If the suffering; once described by Jack London when he was in Alaska, was as dire as he made it sound in one of his short stories, he would have given all his wealth for a few packets of Vitamin C lozenges.

Vitamin D supplements for those who live in the northern climates can also tell you of the needless fatigue they feel as the earth flops arounds the sun as it does, keeping us from absorbing Vitamin D by sunlight. Its nice to sleep properly and have energy.

I am not along in taking Levothyroxine, which supplements my "low" thyroid production. I actually have none as I had thyroid cancer and had mine fully removed. I would die a slow death without my supplication of those hormones.

More embarrassingly perhaps, but because of brain cancer, I also have to take Testosterone. This is not about sex; it is about being able to sleep, energy levels, and maintaining proper mood. But many men even without brain cancer must have supplemental testosterone. For me it is an oxymoron. As my doctor stated, it will take 15 years off my life taking it, but when I asked her if I did not take it at all, she simply said, "You will die". I am not sure why we were even having the conversation. "Let's see, die early for taking it, or die now for not taking it?" Let me think about that for exactly half a second...

Ironically I do not take any true medications, but because of brain cancer I have to take a lot of synthetic hormones. ALL are hormones, not true medications. It is my own body and bad luck with my health, of course, but had I lived just 100 years ago, I would have already been dead. So, without question, yes we need supplements. It is probably the one reason more babies are born alive, and people live longer.

Steve Zoma wrote:Ask any sailor from about 9000 BC to the year 1920, and ask them how prevalent Scurvy was? For whatever reason, Humans and Hamsters are the only animals that require Vitamin C, but we do. The polar explorers never understood why Scurvy was such an issue inland, but not when out by the open ocean, not realizing their food derived there had just enough Vitamin C in it to take away the Scurvy Symptoms. If the suffering; once described by Jack London when he was in Alaska, was as dire as he made it sound in one of his short stories, he would have given all his wealth for a few packets of Vitamin C lozenges.

So, without question, yes we need supplements. It is probably the one reason more babies are born alive, and people live longer.

That's a bit far away in time and in these areas (Ships, Alaska and North and South Poles), nobody had the space and time for gardening and foraging. So why these People are gone there well knowing they will be chewing on last grizzle, dry biscuits and "dead" canned food
It's just another variety of the rat race I mentioned above.. Hence your statement doesn't count, does it?

The seaman was running out of fresh veggies within a week or two...
I am 42 years a seaman and compared to the "Old Times" the Camp Boss has a hell of a job to get the people fed a balanced diet.
On Offshore Installation Vessels with 250-400 crew, it's even more troublesome, because of different Food requirements.
Religious or Country of Origin, that is a huge store room, which lasts only a week and then it needs to be replenished.
But still this is real food and not supplements.

and yes, people get older but that is not the story behind:
The people who need prescribed or by the doctor recommended supplements may have been be lacking before a good diet or even their parents have this caused with their life style for many reasons from no Land till War times...

For them it is necessary to get these supplements to get older than the nature actually allows it..
Since the natural selection "meaning only the strongest is able to survive" is overruled by the medicine, supplements will be unavoidable.

I get in July a hip replacement (Ladder climbing in Wind Turbines is not natural and also there are no supplements for worn out bones) so actually I cannot be a hunter and gatherer anymore, but the body is still strong as a bull and the modern medicine is it,  who helps me not to leave the "tribe" because I am turning into a useless eater.

Not that you think I do not appreciate a longer life, but these are facts and prove that mother nature is merciless.
Lucky we have the modern medicine... ...and supplements...

Amir Khayyat wrote:Hello!

I was looking for a forum to post this and thought, hmp, I bet permies is a great place to.

I was thinking about nature and thinking about the human body lately - and I was thinking, do we REALLY need supplements? I don't think animals in nature are living off supplements, all I see is nature living off the bare minimum. I don't see bunnies brewing up concoctions XD lol

Here's where I'm using observation or pattern recognition maybe. In a pattern sense, you could say it's a pattern that natural life tends to just eat whatever they can eat, and get by just like that... but humans on the other hand go WAYYY in the other direction and supplement our diet with "healthier" nutrition as a supplement, etc. I'm not saying don't eat organic food or grass fed beef, or wild caught salmon, quiet the opposite as I'm all for it - but I'm just saying do I really need to be eating in a supplemental manner?

Now I understand it is important to eat whole food, as in nature there's also no processing plants, per say*** except compost is a processing plant in of itself... so, maybe processing plants are practical? (Another topic starter)

HOWEVER: it could be a double edged sword, this topic, perhaps both supplementing diet is good and not good. maybe it just depends?

HOWEVER: it could also not be a double edge sword

The reason I'm talking about this is because I started to feel a little tired lately, maybe from work... but I'm thinking to myself, do I need some supplements, and then I thought you know what, that just doesn't sound right to me right now-  I should feel fine regardless on an average diet or eating at least once or twice a day and getting a little bit of water, right?

now I do NOT work out - that could also potentially be a contributor. I'm also applying the same principal to working out, do I really NEED to work out? I do mountain bike for fun, but besides that I don't get down and lift weights and do a bunch of squats, I just don't find it appealing for some reason.

one last side note: I understand some humans (and life in general) becomes broken sometimes, and at those times supplments and so fourth are a necessity*** here I'm excluding the abnormality of those instances.

I now live in a sunny place(South Africa) having grown up in a rainy and barely 26°C for a week in July Ireland,  we just ate simply but excellent produce as kids,the health plan was every January bundled off to the chiropracter, my father's siblings (6)
are all alive, 1 in his eighties, the rest late 60's, 70's and really mobile, compos mentis,kids,grandkids etc Running their own homes still, they are not from an affluent background. In contrast in South Africa my partner's parents are both dead and all 4 of his mother's siblings and theoretically South African were way more affluent than Ireland at the time and had health care and were totally into supplements and stuff and vitally they had the sun, ricketts was a Dickensian concept to us as kids,yet people are being diagnosed with it in this era.
I reckon the last thing you need to be doing to your body is taking supplements ,becoming more sensitive to yourself and your environment will allow you to nip shit in the bud and find solutions made for your body/mind👣🌼😊

"Do humans really need supplement, etc?"

That is the question and the short answer is no, but that is based on knowing that plenty of people live longish lives smoking, drinking, eating standard food, and functioning enough. I can't say that they feel healthy, are living to their fullest potential, or enjoying themselves much.

I am a human and for a long time I felt that supplements were too expensive to consider so all of my focus was on my food and its sourcing. Unfortunately, my body has been shaped by many things beyond my control including genetics and environmental toxins. It has also been shaped by uninformed decisions of action throughout my life that altered when I became informed. Basically my gut health was really in a sad shape and it is now a constant work in progress.

The gut matters because you can eat the best food and take the most expensive or top of the line supplements and never get the benefit if the body does not assimilate what it needs. I'm sure everyone has their best version of advice on how people can "get healthy". I usually tell people that talk with me now to begin with fermented foods. Getting the gut in line helps to get the brain in line and then it seems to fall like dominoes into place much easier. Not a perfect path mind you but I have seen it be effective on a big and small scale.

I have a bias that is important to share. I used to never take supplements, then I toyed with vitamins only to have serious stomach disagreement with them, and in the last few years, Well researched, need specific supplementation may have been the reason I'm still here typing. I maintain a supplement regiment and I do feel personally that I indeed need the added help that they offer in the form of more easily assimilated, higher dose for less digestive work amounts.

This is very dependent on the lifestyle you live and probably your genetics and how accurate the science is.

Science

There is conflicting evidence. There probably is conflicting evidence for most things nutrition related and you should always keep in mind that the "consensus" if there is any, changes. Remember that they were advertising kids with cigarettes and doctors were recommending them to pregnant women.

Furthermore, a lot of science is made because there are incentives for publishing studies and isn't really done to help people. Or some of it is paid for, in secret.

Do you believe cholesterol is bad or good? There have been recorded cases of people eating 20-30 eggs per day with no ill effects. It's also needed for producing testosterone in men and estrogen in women.

Do you believe carbohydrates are good? What about fats? There are essential amino acids (proteins) and essential fatty acids but no essential carbohydrates. Do you think you are able to get all the nutrients if you don't eat meat or if you don't eat any animal products?

What about the degrading soil quality (see attached picture in German for decrease in nutrients in vegetables/fruits) and also the feed that animals get? Feeding chicken carrots and chili peppers makes their egg yolks more red. Some people falsely equate Vitamin A with beta-carotene which is what is contained in carrots. It's a provitamin which means it might be converted to Vitamin A. Some people believe that's not possible for humans to convert all of it so they can't get enough Vitamin A from non-animal products. Vitamin A is also a fat-soluble vitamin so it's better absorbed with taken with fat. Feeding cows grass vs feeding them corn changes the quality of the food.

What about saturated fats? Some fats are very bad when heated above certain temperatures (olive oil).

Fasting is another interesting topic when it comes to nutrition. As far as I know, it has many benefits and is practiced by Christians (although adapted from no food for 40 days to no animal products for 40 days and other fasts), in Islam (no food/drinking from sunrise to sunset, only allowed at night for around a month) and in Judaism. I do believe it helps, regardless of religion as it lets your body rest and puts it in a little bit of stress so that it's prepared for bigger stress, if the need arises. It also eats away the bad cells in a process called autophagy.

A lot of studies are done on rats/other animals (most of the time, the same type of = same breed of) and although they might be similar to us, that still does not paint the full picture of a complex human body. You can't feed a herbivore like a rabbit meat and make the conclusion that humans (generally accepted as omnivores) will also react the same way. Mice develop faster so it's not safe to assume that feeding them something for 30 days and getting a reaction means that feeding humans something for 30 days makes the same result.

A lot of studies do not record all the data needed to make a proper conclusion. "People that ate more x food, were more likely to get cancer". Were those people also smokers, not exercising, heavy drinkers, poorly sleeping? Intentionally or maliciously, this might not be recorded. A headline like "High fat diet causes depression" does not show the full story. Were they eating highly processed fast food and candy or avocados? These are compounding variables and making the conclusion that certain ingredient by itself is good or bad is probably not a good idea. Carbohydrates raise insuling (fat storing hormone) so it's probably not good to combine it with fats in the same meal. Or maybe you think it's good. Point is, things are interconnected. (see the attached picture for interconnections between minerals)

A lot of studies might make the conclusions that because wine contains resveratrol (a phenol that was advertised for it's anti-aging effects) then wine has anti-aging effects. But the truth is that the amount contained in wine is so little that you need to drink 1000 bottles of wine per day to get the effects.

A lot of studies use self reported data with questions such as "How many times did you eat broccoli in the past 6 months?". Even if no intentional malice, it's understandable that you won't be accurate in your estimation.

A lot of the conclusions from studies end up making generic conclusions, even though they might only apply to men or women, or certain ages, certain climate, etc. Are you sweating more? Then you probably need more salt.

And more.

Genetics

Are you predisposed to some diseases? Are you lactose-intolerant? Then maybe you need calcium from elsewhere.

Like mentioned earlier, some people can more easily digest beta-carotene from carrots than others.

And a lot more.

Lifestyle

Do you live in Spain and spend most days outside? Then you probably don't need Vitamin D.

Do you live in Norway and work a desk job to which you travel with a car and only go out on weekends? Then you probably need Vitamin D, which is one of the hardest to get from food.

Are you happy?

Are you underslept? Then you might want to go for caffeine as a supplement but a better way would be to improve your sleep timing and quality.

Is the air you are breathing clean?

And more.

Conclusion

It's understandable to overwhelmed with all of that and to not want to spend 12 hours a day reading studies.

We should rely on whole foods (orange juice IS NOT the same as a whole orange) as much as possible and ones that are fed/grown in a proper way. There are (almost 100% sure) nutrients that we need that we are not aware of yet or that are not studied or discovered.

Just to add some more things I learned since making my last post, in defense of food and more.

Vitamins were discovered in 1912. For all of the rest of human history, people would look at you weird if you said you were deficient in Vitamin A.

Moreover, RDI stands for recommended daily intake and that doesn't account for nutrients that can pile up in your body. Some RDIs might be too low.

As far as I know, at least in the US, supplements are way less regulated than food. There was a scandal about melatonin pills having way too much or no melatonin at all, for example. (Tip: you can drink tart cherry juice instead)

If you need supplements, get freeze dried foods in supplements. Freeze drying preserves most of the ingredients.

If you need a multi vitamin but hate the liver taste, you can get (or make, by getting empty pills, making the powder and filling them) freeze dried liver supplements.

If you need vitamin C and can't get it any other way, you might try freeze dried lemon powder.

One more thing to consider is sourcing of the ingredients, if they are not yours. Look for legit third party certifications, who owns the business, etc.

Packaging - Go for amber glass and metal lid. Avoid plastics and avoid clear bottles.

Eating is way more complex than just numbers. Food is not just ingredients. It's a complex organism and eating involves the experience of (hopefully) growing your own food, surely cooking it with your family and eating (chewing) together, but that concept does not drive sales because you can't market and make huge profits on beef or coconut.

Angel, thank you so much for your detailed and thorough post! Excuse my absence, I started looking for, and ended up acquiring a new job and forgot about all the threads I made here

Very insightful information to keep in mind - thank you!


...

Angel Woods wrote:Just to add some more things I learned since making my last post, in defense of food and more.

Vitamins were discovered in 1912. For all of the rest of human history, people would look at you weird if you said you were deficient in Vitamin A.

As far as I know, at least in the US, supplements are way less regulated than food. There was a scandal about melatonin pills having way too much or no melatonin at all, for example. (Tip: you can drink tart cherry juice instead)

If you need supplements, get freeze dried foods in supplements. Freeze drying preserves most of the ingredients.

If you need a multi vitamin but hate the liver taste, you can get (or make, by getting empty pills, making the powder and filling them) freeze dried liver supplements.

If you need vitamin C and can't get it any other way, you might try freeze dried lemon powder.

One more thing to consider is sourcing of the ingredients, if they are not yours. Look for legit third party certifications, who owns the business, etc.

Packaging - Go for amber glass and metal lid. Avoid plastics and avoid clear bottles.

Eating is way more complex than just numbers. Food is not just ingredients. It's a complex organism and eating involves the experience of (hopefully) growing your own food, surely cooking it with your family and eating (chewing) together, but that concept does not drive sales because you can't market and make huge profits on beef or coconut.

Thanks everyone for you replies! I got busy looking for a new job, which I ended up finding one because my old one was SUPER stressful, fingers crossed that never happens again

Again thank you all for your replies!

Congratulations Eric! A less stressful job can be key to needing fewer supplements also. Stress tends to encourage people to eat the wrong foods at the wrong time from my observations!

Congrats Eric, I hope that you start seeing some positive changes with the new job!

One of the best quality of life things I have done is go from a high-income high stress job to a reasonable income job that has stressful times but that I enjoy much more. It is crazy what stress can do to the body both physically and mentally.

Glad to hear about the new job! Hopefully it's less stressful than the last one!

On supplements... my spurts of research over the years have led me to believe most people should take them, but that's in response to most conventional diets being nutrient poor.
"Diet related non communicable diseases" are commonly the cause of significant lifestyle impairment and all too often death.

At the same time - I think sweet potatoes are a viable supplement. Cabbage too.
I think supplementation is essential - I just don't think it always has to be in the form of a pill or similar. Most nutritional gaps in our diets are easily filled with minor supplements to our regular ingredients lists.

Do humans need supplements?  It depends....

If you eat from your own garden or buy it fresh from someone else who grows organically and adds the trace minerals to the soil and that soil is in good balance with microbes, chances are you don’t.  You can get all the vitamins from the foods, perhaps not all the minerals.  You need good oils in your diet and some of that should be Omega 3 oils.  If you’ve ever eaten a food in your entire life, the code for that is imprinted in you and you will know to eat that food to balance whatever deficiencies you have by craving it.  

I’m a naturopath and formerly owned a health food store, and yes, I sold supplements in the store.   So many people, even those who have access to good food, simply do not eat it or eat too much junk food.  For those a good supplement can be the difference between life and death.   So many people tell me they are eating a healthy diet and when I really ask detailed questions find out they are eating the worst kind of diet possible.  I don’t know how some of them survive at all.  
If supplements were pure and not contaminated with magnesium stearate which binds with the nutrients you are trying to absorb and prevents it from assimilating well, it would be much better.  They use it to make encapsulation easier so it doesn’t stick in those automatic machines spitting out the capsules.  Binders in the tablets, not good either.  Pesticide/herbicide residues, heavy metals, on and on the list goes.  Not the best.  Some brands better than others.  Read labels and use good discernment or muscle test or use a pendulum to check for safety and if it is good for you.  

In the wild, animals will crave various things to balance their health and travel great distances to get salt or other things they require.  We once put a bit of borax in the water tank for our goats, to prevent algae from growing and to give them the boron which is deficient in our east coast soils.  The wild birds flocked to it in droves and drank from that tank.  They needed it too.  Amazing how they know it is there, they must be very intuitive.  

An apple picked on one side of a tree can have a different mineral /enzyme profile than one from the other side.  Imagine how much difference in two trees or different varieties.  If it is something your body needs, it will taste really good to you, and that can change constantly as your mineral balance in your body changes.  
For really good health, eat as wide a variety as you can, and locally grown is usually better suited as it matches the frequencies of the area where you live and/or work.  Eat for the seasons, with more of what grows during that season and the storable things like winter squash and hard fruit such as apples/pears in winter.  

vitamins and suppliments are like anything else, any other "medicines", you shouldn't take them unless you're lacking them in your body.  Case in point, my MIL gave me this huge handful of vitamins and, against my better judgement, I took them.  I ended up getting vitamin B toxicity because my body has enough, it didn't need all these pills, it was scary because it was like getting high, dizzy, feeling funny, etc. and it was fun ... until it wasn't, diarhea, extra paranoia, confusion, a panic attack I don't remember having but my husband says I did, etc.  Fortunately I'm none the worse for wear in the longrun, but its serious, don't just guzzle vitamins, or anything else.  If you're wondering which vitamins and suppliments you might need, go get tested, don't just guess.

Another thing to note is that we've been breeding our fruits, vegetables, and grains to be tastier over a very long time, and the bunnies don't have that option. Tastier also unfortunately typically means higher amounts of carbohydrates and fats, which means you're getting fewer vitamins and minerals per amount of food. Also, it seems like we use fewer spices and herbs, broadly speaking, than we used to, and those are comparatively higher in minerals and vitamins. And then you add that very, very few of us are foraging for a significant portion of our vegetables and fruits, and it becomes pretty obvious that even someone who's growing a lot of their own fruits and vegetables might be missing out on some things. We used to eat such an incredible diversity of things, and by comparison the modern diet is extremely limited.

hi,

i just wanted to say i'm 52 and i don't take any supplements or medications.  i also don't go to the dr for check ups and haven't been to the dentist in years.  i live in the pacific nw.

i was having some problems with my teeth but when i stopped eating anything with added sugar they went away.

my diet is eggs and whole wheat toast for breakfast and then just fresh produce (sometimes nuts) the rest of the day.  

so as soon as i posted that last reply i had to laugh at myself because i left out that i have a soy milk latte in the morning and soymilk at night.  i think it's essentially a supplement because i'm menopausal and it has hormonal effects.  it probably even has added vitamins and minerals.  

haha, so i guess i'm changing my answer to "i use supplements".

rissa  

Actually some animals do go out of their way to acquire certain things.  Moose dive in ponds and lakes to get the salty pond plants, because they don't get enough salt in their usual diet, so the mom moose teach the babies how to do this to acquire the salt they need.  Other animals do this too, including African forest elephants, they've been seen injesting small amounts of certain types of mud/clay that are rich in salt to meet that need.

I think we do, and I think animals often do as well.

My land is void of certain minerals for my sheep when I had them, and by proving it too them, they ate as they needed.

And that is kind of the point. Humans and their livestock are often put in deficient mineral areas and so supplements aid in keeping people and livestock alive. Take for instance the sailors who lost their lives by the droves because they lacked refrigeration, were given salt pork and died because they did not have Vitamin C in their bodies. People in the USA southwest died of this as well, along with the explorers in the arctic and Antarctic regions. We ll can't live where there is Eden, so we must do the best we can where we are with what we can provide whether by gardens or by purchase.

I just went to the hospital for a heart attack. I have done so several times over the years, yet I just found out that a lack of magnesium can mimic them. In looking back in my charts, I have been deficient for years and why I had so many issues. I now take supplements for that and feel great. I am not sure I could eat enough spinach to otherwise get me where I need to be.

And hormones. Yep, I must take them too. I have endocrine cancer in both my pituitary and thyroid, so the tumor stems my production of certain hormones. Without the synthetic ones, I would be dead in three weeks' time.

At first, I have supplemented with pills in order to target some issues that I have had in the past especially around winter time (D3). After joining Permies, I have really started to embrace the idea of food as medicine and looking towards what I consume to fill any nutritional voids.

I have found intentionally eating fish, something I previously would have rarely, really has helped on multiple fronts. D3, omegas, and decent nutrition to boot. I'm a sucker for Mackeral.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:

, but parading around in my birthday suit at -30C is ... problematic.

🤣

Yes in winter I take D with K, and A and eat saag -- puréed mustard which is high in calcium, which I like with starchy foods. I also take the oils when I think about it, and my horrid B complex which tastes terrible, oh and magnesium fairly regularly to prevent restless legs, cramping

I have a B3 dependency -- need more than most people -- which I understand is supplemented in US flour but not in Canada. It's the nicotinic acid flushing form, which improves circulation, will scour the arteries, and in me, prevents migraines and depression but I have neck issues so it probably helps keep blood flowing to my brain

I consider liver a supplement -- I just take it in its natural form and it's fresh and I know where it comes from, sautéed in homemade salsa.

I also eat lots of boiled (non oxidized) eggs because they are a multi vitamin in hand.

When I came back from Nunavut in February I couldn't get enough sun! I was outdoors constantly in my -100 boots and a thin house dress basking up the sun, getting my vitamin D

In summer I eat the weeds, and I don't bother with anything but B3

Andre Voisin wrote   Soil, Grass, Cancer. It was published in about 1954.  Out of print for many years.  I had to wait months for the library to find me a copy.  It’s been reprinted and should be available for interested people.

The research was done when food wasn’t transported so much, and people lived in the same region as their ancestors, for generations upon generations.  The gist of it is that the condition of the soil determines the health of the people eating from it.  

It’s a fascinating book.  I think where crops are grown with industrialized methods, then packed in gasses in plastic bags to lengthen storage life, then probably people do benefit from supplements, and the hardest thing is to know what supplements a particular individual might need.

Steve Solomon’s The Intelligent Gardener illustrates the same principle.  He and his family ate from their richly composted garden in Cascadia, and each suffered various afflictions.

They took an extended vacation to a Pacific Island region of volcanic mineral rich soils, and they were healed.

It’s been almost 20 years since I read these two books.  They run in a different direction to mainstream and shaped a lot of my gardening opinions and practices.  I don’t remember all the details.  The ideas I have shared here are just what has stayed with me that seem germane to the question of people needing supplements.

In general I don't use supplements. I do my best to eat a large variety oforganic  vegetables, (organic grass fed) meat, and sometimes fish. Also do I try to be outdoors plenty of time ... But that is the problem. During winter, when it's cold and wet here, I stay more indoors. Because of that I take natural fish liver oil as a supplement.

Faye Streiff wrote:...  If it is something your body needs, it will taste really good to you, ...  

Then probably my body needs the fish liver oil! I like the taste of it (most people say they hate it)

Wow! What a great thoughts all y’all are sharing

I, too, have long questioned the need for supplements, along many of the same reasoning lines as presented here

Just a few thoughts to add to the brew:

Often (mostly?) supplements are comprised of extracts from more whole-some sources, likely the result of main stream scientific reductionist thinking to extract the ‘active ingredients’ they can foist on an unwary customer base. However, nature-ally, those extracts are made (by nature) to work in harmony with the other constituents of the source.

Take, for example raw milk vs. pasteurized milk - as I understand it, the pasteurization process ‘kills’ the very constituent(s) that facilitate the absorption/processing of lactose by the body… thus leading to lactose overload and ‘intolerance’; as well as homogenization which I think breaks up the fat ‘chunks’ into smaller chunks which, then, are un-naturally able to enter ?cells? or other places they shouldn’t otter be getting into… or something along those lines

Another example, while widely lauded, Vitamin C is also ‘extracted’ from natural complex sources - wouldn’t it be better to get our Vit. C from the likes of Rose Hips, whole fruits, etc…

Another factor to consider in our ‘modern civilized world’ are the incredible continuous assaults on all life because of our man-made toxic pollutants  we’re exposed to these days in every aspect of life - air, water, soil, food, electromagnetic emissions, mental-emotional-spiritual contamination, ad nausea… not to mention being totally mislead health-wise by the an allopathic ‘Rockefeller” medical system that seems more focused on illness than wellness (creating ‘customers’ for life); treating symptoms, rather than the underlying and multi-factored causes of our dis-ease; offering (toxic) petroleum based pharmaceuticals and other deleterious concoctions and procedures to ‘mask’ the symptoms while leaving the root-cause issues for the body to deal with.

Nature (read: the body) knows full well how to remove deleterious materials from our systems - she’s been doing quite well with that for a bazillion years, thank you very much… until man stuck his nose in our business; however, when she’s busy dealing with higher priority issues keeping us alive (especially when we keep adding toxic gick into the mix), she has to temporarily sequester such materials somewhere in the body awaiting further processing and elimination thus expressing as ‘symptoms’ (e.g., tumors) - perhaps a sign we need to jump in and discern what we can do to help relieve her work load

Thus it becomes incumbent on those who seek true health to remove/avoid as much toxicity as possible from our lives and bodies (e.g., avoiding, detoxing, etc) and to discern what really keeps us well - and, IMHO, lifestyle factors play writ large in the equation: eat well, sleep well, play well, work well, hydrate well, breathe well, keep our body/mind/spirit in harmony with all life, and eat dirt (had to throw that in ;-) )… and it may also mean ‘supplementing’ our diet to make up for what’s missing in our present not-so-natural world.

It’s may seem pretty overwhelming to figure out what’s best for each of us, as indeed, were are each unique, living in unique conditions, with unique histories - ain’t no one-size-fits all about it. The only-est thing I can figure is to tune into to that ‘still small voice’ within, attuning to what our body’s telling us, and proceed accordingly
… A challenge today more so than ever, perhaps, is finding a place of solitude in our lives where we can hear said ‘small voice’, what with the continuous onslaught of attention-grabbing diversions attracting our attentions, not the least of which is that pair of right/left brained logical reasoning devil/angle guys sitting on our shoulders perpetually whispering in our ears - do this, no, do that, but what about…

Take heart we can do this, we ‘know’, in our hearts, what’s right and what’s wrong - that ‘came with the kit’
Simply(?) rekindle our conspiracy (in spiritous) with our creator who will “… lead us moment by moment along the path of liberation” - let “God be our co-pilot”

and, Ethan, if you choose to accept this mission, your brain will NOT self-destruct in five seconds

Permaculture has led me in many new directions, one being herbalism.  I watch "She is of the Woods" videos and have learned a boatload of good information.  She talks a lot about vitamins and what they do in our bodies.  She also happened to mention another site or app which I have since signed up to and it's free.  It's called "Chronometer."  I know, weird name, but an amazing tool.  You can track what you eat and from that, it tells you your intake of necessary vitamins and minerals.  If you hover over them, they will tell you what they do in the body and if the work in concert with another like calcium, K and D.  It will also tell you what foods get the highest amounts of particular vitamins and minerals if you hover over another part.  I realized, through this app that I wasn't getting certain ones.  I know that I don't usually get enough protein, but I was also regularly low in calcium, D, Magnesium and B.  Because of this, I now regularly spray magnesium oil (I make) when I'm getting dressed.  I grind up baked egg shells and put them into capsules for calcium (idea gotten from "She is of the Woods), which I take daily and I've started supplementing with a B complex and D3.  I do take other things like turmeric with black pepper, which really help with my arthritis and I take Hawthorn which has allowed me to cut my blood pressure medicine in half with my doctor's blessing.  
Before using Chronometer, I really thought that I was getting everything I needed, and I couldn't understand why I wasn't losing weight.  It will tell you how many calories you've consumed, how many you have left, and there is a place to enter in activity to gain back some calories.  It has exercises like shoveling, gardening, walking, house cleaning, etc.--real world activities.  I, too, am not a fan of "exercise" like going to the gym, but am very active around the property and it's nice to "get credit" for that!