Personal life goal: to change/broaden the modern definition of wealth/prosperity

I will start with an admission: I copied the subject line with permission from Sarah Hartwin. One of my pet peeves with the internet is how often the same idea, often with the exact same words, shows up on multiple web sites with no acknowledgement.

However, when I read it, I found the idea profound. I think it's something I've been feeling for decades. I think our definition of wealth has been hijacked by this concept called: The Economy, and buzzwords like GDP (gross domestic product - interesting that "gross" can be a noun, a verb or an adjective, and the adjective can be an "informal term for vulgar, rude, or sickening.")

My goal here, is to write about the things I'm doing in my permaculture life to acknowledge and spread a permie definition of wealth and small things we can do to subtly shift the definition to be less "how much money do you have" to "what is something you did this week that makes you feel richer".

My first example:
My Son's mother in law is from India. Although we have stores that stock many of her native foods, it can be harder to get some of the fresh veggies she would use. She currently lives in a basement apartment and she *LOVES* to cook.

So I started some seeds, not all of which germinated. Yesterday, I took the plants that had and made up a large planter (about 20" in diameter) with a polyculture of Mustard Greens, pod peas, fenugreek and in the center, a tomato baby. I think I've forgotten one more. Then I made a second planter with an Indian Mint with some walking onions around the edge. My son helped me get the planters in his car and he delivered them. Within an hour, I got a message from his wife, "Mum loved the plants - all of them, especially the mustard and the mint. Thank you so much!!"

So Lesson One: Which is more important? Money in the bank, or making people happy?

Yesterday I made someone very happy and I feel richer for it. What have you done this week that makes you feel richer?

To answer opinion brief, I suspect the issue of balance comes into play.

I think I am after a similar thing, Jay, or maybe the same thing?
It's not a fully-formed concept for me - it's all still swirling. But here's a bit of it....

I want to literally grow a wealth of abundance. Whatever the land might produce, might do well on our (my husband's and my) future land, I dream of fabulous fertile production. I envision sharing that abundance in my community. Maybe some of that abundance will even be exchanged for money (higher numbers in a bank account). But maybe it won't. Maybe it will be traded or gifted or reinvested or used up. Or like you did - put to use to enrichen someone else.

I have this idealized version of ancient traditional peoples, nomads whose wealth was counted in flocks and herds and access to wells (water), or more stationary people later on who had vineyards. Yes, it was their possessions. But it was also that their abundance fit their lifestyle and their community. And it was abundance that actually sustained them.

I think I'm trying to connect "prosperity" to "experiences" (versus "possessions"), as well. I'm not really interested in measuring the wealth. I'm really after a diversity of wealth. And I think the diversity includes using knowledge, skills, lived experience (another area I can get wealthy in? be prosperous in?) to expand experiences for me and others around me.

So for me it's a mix of redefining literal wealth (things that actually enrichen us, like 3 years' worth of stored grain in a multi-year drought), and stretching the "wealth" concept to include community connections and outreach gestures and kindnesses that fill us up.
Oh! and also removing shame from the equation - whether shame around prosperity or shame around poverty.

I think there is a connection between accruing this kind of wealth and refilling spoons.

It's a message that is very personal. It's usually a happy thing thing to say *I* don't need all this money, but when someone says *YOU* don't need all that money, it's highly subject to misinterpretation. You would first need develop an iron clad moral character and live by example.

Paul goes on a lot about the hostility he witnesses with respect to kitchen activities that other cultures simply do not have any trouble with. I like to imagine if we could all learn to get along in the kitchen better, a lot of problems would be solved.

Jay Angler wrote:Yesterday I made someone very happy and I feel richer for it. What have you done this week that makes you feel richer?

I've had a pair of pants put up in a drawer for I don't know how many years. I finally hemmed them this week, and now they're in regular rotation with the rest of my work pants. I chose to sew them by hand, and that makes wearing them extra-satisfying. They're comfy and lightweight, and I'll appreciate them this summer.

Definitions are both personal (what do words and concepts mean to you, how did that meaning evolve in your mind as a result of your own unique life experiences) and universal (what do words and concepts mean in a way common to everyone, to facilitate communication and shared understanding).

We have some control over personal definitions, much less over universal ones, though sometimes with cleverness and a bit of luck we can put new words or new applications of existing words into wide circulation (after all, every word we use was once used for the first time by someone) and of course when it comes to other people we have outsize influence over those who live with and/or look up to us, such as our children.

Therefore I believe everyone is capable of updating their own definition of wealth/prosperity, as I’m sure many users of this website have, in ways that are less about money and more about fulfillment and being surrounded by harmoniousness.

But I am less sure about changing that definition broadly, because then even if all of “us” tried to coordinate the circulation of a new definition for wealth/prosperity, it would still be an uphill battle against a far larger and more widespread competing force that wants to definite it purely according to Having Stuff.

And frankly, I think Having Stuff appeals in a more direct way to the human brainstem, which evolved in an African Savannah where scarcity and deprivation were everyday reality, and making sure you took every opportunity to Get Stuff was simply a matter of survival. Many people (especially Americans) still live in that survival mode, paycheck to paycheck, everything on credit, tangibles valued far above intangibles, self-worth measured against the Joneses, etc.

And maybe it has to be this way (a dark thought I’ve expressed here before); without the consumerism and waste and rat-racing of the majority, this Goldilocks ideal “we” experience, in which we can both not run in the rat race yet still feel wealthy/prosperous, might not be possible at all. Can’t salvage stuff from the side of the road if nobody has thrown it away, ya know?

So I applaud the manipulation of one’s own definition of wealth/prosperity toward something healthier, more holistic, more humane, and it’d probably be nice if more people did in some absolute sense, but I am pessimistic that a definition of it could be changed much more broadly, and I have a slight nagging impish sense that maybe even it shouldn’t.

Grabbing onto Ned’s last paragraph, I taught management at the college level for 15 years.  One of the disturbing (to me) undercurrents I found was that employment wise money overruled happiness.  People would stay with a job they were miserable at rather than move to one with lower pay.  I am not sure if it was about money for its purchasing power or money for prestige.  

At my own organization I would have people quit because another organization was offering $0.25 per hour more.   The joke was we had paid lunch breaks and added 3% into an IRA for the employee making our pay significantly higher.  We also had much better benefits in general.  I felt it was a good way to screen out employees I didn’t want. At least twice I had ex employees ask me why their paycheck at their new job was lower.

Jay, I commend you for your efforts to redefine terms.  I have not succeeded.

I am unsure about trying to change the definition of wealth/prosperity as there are just too many folks that fit that category.

I have already changed my definition of wealth/prosperity so I am happy with my life.

My suggestion would be to do what you can within your spectrum.

Jay Angler wrote:What have you done this week that makes you feel richer?

This week was the last week on my seasonal day job for this spring. Done, yay! Just now, I went out in the forest around where I'm staying at the moment and dug up a load of plants that will be planted on our land: a hazel, a tiny wild cherry tree, a gooseberry bush, ostrich fern, Solomon's seal, wood avens, and a couple more things. Guess which did more to make me feel rich: working a week at a decently paying job, or digging up a boxful of random wild plants?

As a bonus "feel rich" moment, I also saw a badger foraging for worms up close. Like, extremely close. We were probably just four meters apart when the badger finally spotted me and ran.

John F Dean wrote: Jay, I commend you for your efforts to redefine terms.  I have not succeeded.

I am realizing that what I wrote can be interpreted two different ways.

Because I put in the Subject line, "Personal life goal", I meant that I often have felt surrounded by people who only seemed to define wealth based on how many toys they have, how fancy a car they drive and when they aren't hiding a ton of debt, how much money they have in the bank.

I personally, am trying to change that definition within myself, but I admit, am hoping that some of my attitude rubs off on some of the people I'm in frequent contact with.

I feel very lucky. I *know* that I have money in the bank and can afford to buy food and shelter. But I choose to grow veggies, am happy to drive a 20 year old car (give or take), and I don't feel I need to live in a bigger house than my neighbors do. I mend my own and my family's clothing because I like to live lighter on Planet Earth and I consider it a fun thing to do while listening to music or watching a video.

I am aware that there are people who are forced to adopt a low cash lifestyle and I can understand how stressful and depressing that can be. I know some people like that who actively try to keep their cash needs low by doing things that are a "choice" to me, but "not an option" for them. I just hope that when I help them in some way, like starting veggies for them, or asking them if they'd like a garbage can of fresh duck shit for their compost (it was a resounding YES!), it is because even though they are gardening out of necessity, that they are enjoying the plants they grow.

Like Eino Kenttä said:

Guess which did more to make me feel rich: working a week at a decently paying job, or digging up a boxful of random wild plants?

John F Dean wrote:One of the disturbing (to me) undercurrents I found was that employment wise money overruled happiness.  People would stay with a job they were miserable at rather than move to one with lower pay.

I moved companies a couple of times in my first career in the automotive industry, neither job change was for financial reasons, but both new companies seemed to think they needed to give me a biggish pay rise. Leaving that industry to become self employed and earn a relatively small amount was a decision I am still happy about.
This week I have been preparing a new garden area. I feel this makes me much richer, although adds nothing to my bottom line.

new kitchen garden

Jay Angler wrote: I personally, am trying to change that definition within myself, but I admit, am hoping that some of my attitude rubs off on some of the people I'm in frequent contact with.

That's it!
I'm hoping by exploring weird, unconventional permaculture stuff which satisfies and sustains me (feelings and reality) I become an example of unconventional prosperity.

Jay also wrote:even though they are gardening out of necessity, that they are enjoying the plants they grow.

(emphasis mine)
Oh, this distills it even further, thank you Jay! I want to explore how we can meld "pursuit of wealth" with "joy".
(Because many modern "pursuit of wealth" methods seem joyless to me.)

And I happen to think permaculture ways of living get us bigger "joyful wealth" returns.

I view money as a valuable resource. I just don't think it's the only resource that can be used as currency (Time banks, anyone?).But it seems to me our society is focused on it nearly exclusively.

What have you done this week that makes you feel richer?

My husband and I are trying to help a neighbor. As a result I reconnected with some old friends. My community just got bigger! I definitely feel... richer? Expanded, fuller, more satisfied - yeah! Richer!

New concept to me:  Time Banks where simple, neighborly exchanges where every hour helps someone else.

How many are there?

I'm happy to offer a concise definition: I measure wealth/prosperity by personal happiness.
Everything else, in my opinion, is tangential to the discussion.

I stumbled on this, which seems to fit this thread pretty well. It begins with this quote...

It is not the man who has too little, but the one who desires more, who is poor.

Anne Miller wrote:New concept to me:  Time Banks where simple, neighborly exchanges where every hour helps someone else.

How many are there?

I put up a new wiki thread about time banks, Anne. Maybe the maps or Wikipedia article will help answer your question? It looks like there are multiple directories, and not all time banks are registered in the same place.

Sara Hartwin wrote:

Anne Miller wrote:New concept to me:  Time Banks where simple, neighborly exchanges where every hour helps someone else.

How many are there?

I put up a new wiki thread about time banks, Anne. Maybe the maps or Wikipedia article will help answer your question? It looks like there are multiple directories, and not all time banks are registered in the same place.

There have been ups and downs to the movement over the years and since most of the directory-type resources are run by volunteers, they are subject to changing life circumstances, burnout, etc. Same applies to timebanks themselves. One of the best indicators of success for a timebanking initiative is having a paid coordinator to keep things running smoothly.

These are similar to lots of other "alt economy" structures in the way they show resurgence when times get tough, and then often go dormant or fade away when things are not so dire. So we saw lots of systems get put together after the 2008 crash, only to atrophy several years later because of a mix of reasons (like volunteer burnout, waning interest from the community, etc).

Wish I remember where I saw it, but years ago I read, “When you farm, your soil is your bank account”.  I try to make an addition every day, wood chips, biochar, urine, ashes, etc.  I really do feel like I have something valuable when I see rich dark soil forming.  Interesting that the word rich applies to both soil and money.

Phil Stevens wrote:
There have been ups and downs to the movement over the years and since most of the directory-type resources are run by volunteers, they are subject to changing life circumstances, burnout, etc. Same applies to timebanks themselves. One of the best indicators of success for a timebanking initiative is having a paid coordinator to keep things running smoothly.

I have seen many project and organizations fail because they only rely on volunteers.

Maybe it would be good to pair with libraries that have paid staff, similar to repair libraries:

https://permies.com/t/162851/Hosting-repair-circle-town

https://permies.com/t/170264/Repair-Cafe

https://permies.com/t/204904/Community-access-work-shops-huzzah

Recently my husband offered to thin out the herb bed for me when I was really tired, with legs still sore from work.

This was doubly satisfying:
I have lemon balm and mint drying instead of bolting (yay!)...



and
(sappiness warning)
I gained another tiny but powerful example of how my husband cares for me. (We ended up working on it together, which was easier on my legs and seemed to take no time at all.)

Depending on how diligent I am, I might be enjoying infusions all through winter, with abundance to share as well.

This resonates deeply with me, and I think it is close to what Permies is all about.

I've never really been money driven but everything we do these days is labeled and a price tag is put on it. An apple pie from the grocery store is $12, so the one mom makes for her family because she has a lot of apples and because she loves her family must be worth $12 too. No, it isn't. It is priceless because mom used a family recipe to make the crust flakier than anything the store sells. There's nothing but apples, sugar, butter, cinnamon, and lemon juice in it. "I made this because I love you" tastes so much better than "I bought this at the store because it was on sale."

Doing a couple dozen useful things each day for loved ones will always be the stable center of household or homestead management. Or it should be. No job I have ever had made me feel richer than I do sitting on my porch glider in the morning with a cup of hot coffee in my mug, watching the sun rise over Willow Acre.

This is a good thread. I hope the conversation continues.

Jim

Money is nothing but what you say it is.  Can you think of anything people will kill for that could be a duck, rock, or car?  I find these questions too disturbing to bring up with anyone but very good friends.  People’s faith in money has replaced all, as it brings happiness no matter what… ?  Can money do this?  What guaranteed happiness is for sale? I believe this stems from a question of what you really want, and  reinforcement from others.  Important to ask as merging philosophical life with reality has become the internet’s/AI’s  scorched earth of late.  Seems AI is trying to convince everyone money is what they want, not a duck… it’s always a false choice.  

Thanks for this thread! Wealth/prosperity is a powerful topic with deep links into our history, psychology, and health. Are we good enough?

My parents' generation grew up during the Depression and WW2, the first generation "off the farm." In the US they saw a general, steady increase in financial opportunity and standard of living. I think my generation was born into a deep cultural expectation that we would continue to amass more material wealth. I believed that as long as I did well in school and kept busy, I would one day be rich. I wanted fancy cars, beautiful (though impractical) clothing, and recognition.

My uncle had already done this. He got through a long professional education, moved to a beautiful prestigious area, established a wildly successful career, had a beautiful house, wife, cars, kids, etc. But despite or because of this, he was overcome by mental illness, became terrified about finances, and took his own life. We know other wealthy people who admit they also suffer from the daily fear that they will lose it all and become homeless. When does "enough" shift into "too much," where resources become liabilities?

At a certain point I realized that the aspiration of "getting rich" not only strained individuals striving for the goal but also compromised our shared life support systems on Earth. Wise, loving people showed me that it was OK to steer toward a middle path. Decades later, part of me still wonders if I am a failure because I live in a simple home and still work full-time. But now I recognize the shame comes from remnants of an old archetype inside me -- one that no longer makes sense in our world.

Yesterday I came home from work and experienced true joy as I talked with my wife and then eagerly went out into our garden to see Tennessee Valencia peanuts popping out of the soil for the very first time here. Yippee!! Several days of moderate rains have given a pause in the drought, creeks are up, and life is bursting out around us. I felt like I was part of that.

Could that be a modern yet very old definition of wealth and prosperity?

Thanks Jay, for kicking off this thread on such an interesting topic, and for everyone that is chiming in, making it a happy read with my morning coffee...

I am pondering on the intersection of 'wealth' and 'prosperity'. Those two words are very often tagged together, but don't necessarily imply each other (which accounts for the resilient appeal and annual re-presentations of Charles Dicken's 'A Christmas Carol' since 1843...). Scrooge had wealth, but was not prospering, and was actively disrupting the prospering of others (until led by Grace to  a change of heart).

Before my learning about and becoming fascinated with biomimicry and permaculture and regenerative ag about a decade ago, my career in healthcare was all consuming.   'Health care' in conventional medical context appears to me to be fundamentally misnamed, as it focuses on disease management - the fighting of germs or blocking of symptoms, rather than building health....  (apologies to any conventional health care practitioners on the forum, who may see it very differently)   There are philosophical parallels to conventional ag and permaculture on the land, with the value of nourishing soil and supporting the natural processes, rather than fighting / blocking / poisoning etc.

Within integrative medical approaches (and interestingly also architecture) the term 'salutogenesis' is a meaningful shorthand for prosperity and wealth of positive experience.  'Saluto' = 'health' and '-genesis' = creation or generative capacity of.  Permaculture is fundamentally salutogenic. The care and love and kindness to others (and to oneself) is salutogenic. And it is interesting to consider how permaculture engenders this salutogenic quality for all the beings within its sphere of influence - microbes, plants, animals, peeps.

In the same way that there are philosophical parallels between conventional medicine / conventional ag, there are interesting parallels that can be pondered in the context of this thread in the salutogenesis of body mind and spirit in the surrounding environment.  The following is a summary of salutogenesis in architecture, which languages several aspects that are inherently related to a prosperous existence, though not inherently tied to wealth:

Salutogenesis is a highly valued framework in modern architecture. Also known as salutogenic design, it shifts the focus from simply removing hazards (the pathogenic model) to actively designing spaces that promote physical, mental, and emotional health.
The Core Principles: Coined by sociologist Aaron Antonovsky, the concept centers on a "Sense of Coherence".
Architects translate this concept into the built environment by focusing on three pillars:
- Comprehensibility: Creating easily navigable layouts that reduce stress and confusion.
- Manageability: Designing environments that support everyday functioning and reduce environmental overwhelm.
- Meaningfulness: Integrating spaces that encourage social connection, purpose, and positive emotional responses.

How It’s Applied: To build a sense of coherence, architects use specific, evidence-based elements in their designs:
- Abundant Natural Light: Maximizing daylight to regulate circadian rhythms and improve mood.
- Biophilia: Integrating plants, natural materials, and views of nature.
- Clean Indoor Air: Prioritizing excellent ventilation and the use of non-toxic, sustainable materials.
- Acoustic Comfort: Reducing disruptive noise levels to create restorative, quiet zones.

Common Building Types: While it is increasingly applied to offices and homes, salutogenesis remains a primary strategy in specific sectors:
- Healthcare Facilities: Used heavily in hospitals to accelerate patient recovery times and support medical staff.
- Senior Living & Memory Care: Used in assisted living facilities to provide spaces that are easy to navigate, manageable, and comforting for residents.
- Schools and Mental Health Clinics: Designed to minimize anxiety and maximize focus, cognitive function, and creativity.

Coherence. Support everyday function. Social connection, purpose. Reduce anxiety / stress / overwhelm. Easy. Accelerate recovery. Maximize focus, function, creativity. Comfort.
Surely qualities of prosperity, wealth of experience, aligned with permaculture principles.

Just thinkin' out loud here with my morning coffee...

You just unlocked the mystery of the universe.    Seriously, seeing those tiny sprouts full of hope for the fall harvest...that is true wealth. Savor it.

Jim

J Bentley wrote:

Yesterday I came home from work and experienced true joy as I talked with my wife and then eagerly went out into our garden to see Tennessee Valencia peanuts popping out of the soil for the very first time here.
Could that be a modern yet very old definition of wealth and prosperity?

Another video, released yesterday, that covers a lot of stuff about wealth and what it actually means...

A man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone - Walden, by Henry D. Thoreau.

Wealth there isn't what gets accumulated, it's what isn't needed. Wealth is the size of the free inner space. The fewer the ties, the fewer the automatic commitments. The fewer the possessions ruling the schedule the more that person has of herself, for herself.

I've been enjoying this thread.  Monitary wealth:  When things break and one needs a different thing to replace them with then money really helps.  Things like bills and insurance are other times when money really helps.  I try to be easily pleased beyond that.  I'd say the thing I really enjoy which isn't a biological need but which makes me very happy is experiences, and often experiences cost money, trips, etc.  I try to employ methods of reducing the amount of money needed to still have such, but really there's still money involved even so.

I think introverts have it better when it comes to not needing as much money, as they like to stay home and are more content with not going anywhere.

So maybe what we need is a "saving money as an extravert" thread..

One of the most popular songs ever sung in Wales is about the value of a pure heart being above that of gold or pearls.

It was originally written as a hymn but is regularly sung at every school, pub, back-street and rugby match in Wales and is spreading steadily around the globe.



Translation of first verse and chorus

I do not ask for a luxurious life,
The world’s gold or its fine pearls,
I ask for a happy heart,
A truthful heart, a pure heart.

Chorus:
A Pure Heart, that’s full of goodness,
Fairer than the delicate Lily:
Only a pure heart can sing,
Sing the day and sing the night.

And in the original Welsh...

Nid wy'n gofyn bywyd moethus,
Aur y byd na'i berlau mân:
Gofyn wyf am galon hapus,
Calon onest, calon lân.

Chorus:
Calon lân yn llawn daioni,
Tecach yw na'r lili dlos:
Dim ond calon lân all ganu
Canu'r dydd a chanu'r nos.

And this is the way it should be sung of course - at a rugby match!