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In your humble opinion, what is wrong with dating today?

 
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I would be careful about watching those Youtubes. Try to keep in mind that what they are really presenting are characteristics of the culture rather than objective characteristics of women, if that makes sense. Otherwise you could be in danger of adopting a mysogenistic view, when really they are expressing the current state they f our culture. We are all bio-cultural organisms as humans and we are all expressions of the culture, so just be careful which aspect of the culture you are expressing.

I don't get the impression you are a mysogenist, but due to the phenomenon were discussing here, many people are adopting that view.

When I compared that phenomenon to chaos seeking equilibrium I mean what see is that apps likebtinder thatbdint allow men to contact women directly neighbour matching has given women a tool that enhances their ability to select a mate. I'm not saying its actually beneficial or anything but women are generally more selective than men, which makes perfect sense, so this tool has given them the ability to be more selective over a wider range, but also allows for anonymity. So at first there was a lot of NSA sexual encounters/hook ups and basic experimentation. It be seen lots of trends in the women's  profiles coming and going, a lot of experimentation, and learning and things changing that will eventually find a balance.

Mennnot being super selective in most cases will just swipe on any one, and sort it out later. So you also have a lot of guys matching with women that in more natural settings they would not match with because those guys would be out of those women's league so to speak.

As a result lots of really good looking guys are willing to drop by a woman's house for anonomous sex that ten years ago would never have happened which resultsbin going to these women's hradsbto where now they won't select guys that are more suitable for a balanced relationship.

By balanced I compare it to electro negativity in chemistry.

For example oxygen has a stronger electro negativity than hydrogen. It really wants to bond to find equilibrium, where ad hydrogen has a much weaker EN. When the two elements bond to form water the electrons tent to locate themselves more around the O atom than they do to the H atoms. So the electro negativity although need to bond is fulfilled it is not distributed equally making the H2O molecule polar which means it can form what are called, hydrogen bonds.

When two atoms have a more equal electro negativity the even distribution of electron orbitals makes it non-polar which means it lacks an electrical charge and will not interact with in a bonding sort of way with other molecules like water will.

So I compare a lot of these interactions between men and women on dating apps that way. Women who aren't super hot are hooking up with guys that are.

It affects the guys by giving them more notches which they keep going after, but it affects those wen by giving by them a false arrogance which makes them too picky to want to match with guys that are more their equals and with whom they could likely have a more fulfilling relationship with.

The problem with the phenomenon of modern dating reaching equilibrium is as you pointed out is the bonding process that you brought up.

Many of these women are going to grow up to be lonely, and unable to form bonds, and many men are growing to despise women, and are growing up without interacting with women, and so they are not developing the behaviors, that are more or less courting and mating behaviors. So there is a fairly large group of people who will not be able to ever pair bond, but the younger generation learning from this flux may end up adopting what you could call a more old fashioned approach when they realize that the older generation has reduced their chances of ever finding happiness via pair bonding.

Its always seemed strange to me that although we know that babies are what result from natural sex,bit doesn't seem to be an inherent understanding, or one that is fully assimilated. Some people, and in my experience a majority of those people are woman in general, and ultra good looking or ultra smooth men have the idea that, "its just sex".

Sex initiates so many chemical reactions surrounding the bonding phenomenon that no one walks away from a mutual orgasim unaffected by those bonding mechanisms. So people hooking up form attractions to those same types of people, those same types of situations, and the same types of mood, attitude and courtship behaviors, sadly even if they don't enjoy it. Its one of the reasons rape and molestations affect the victims in such traumatic ways.

I've come to think there are two possibilities of why people have not seemed to really assimilated this. One is that if we evolved to know where babies come from we might not want to procreate so freely so the ignorance of what we are doing when we are essentially mating has a evolutionary advantage in keeping the species going.

The other is that for hundreds of thousands of years early humans had no clue that babies came from sex. That I think is baby most early humans were matriarchal, and revered wen as goddesses who embodied the generative force of nature. So in that scenario what we have is an understanding that has not yet really caught up to the cultural ways customs and behaviorsbthat we've developed. The mating that went on for hunts D's of thousands of years was likely just people without any understanding of the urges by hey wants relief from just going at it, and I believe are what is responsible for toxic pair bonding where people end up in toxic relationships thhey can't get out of due to bonding with others who had a toxic compatibility inbtherlir genes that is based on eons of really F*#%ed up brutal sexual relationships with mating partners who were ignorant and had no reservations about sexual relief.

If that's the case I think the discovery of the mans role in procreation is what led to patriarchal structures that we as a species have lived in for the last mere 20,000 years or so.

At any rate, I agree that the ability to bond is what is at stake here. There are even statistics that show that a person whose had More than a dozen or so different partners is not likely to ever be able to form a lasting relationship with anyone ever, even if they want to because they've programmed themselves by way of biochemical reactions that are actually designed to keep people together for the sake of procreation and caring for the child.

When a woman has a baby, especially a vaginal birth, and when she breast feeds these same biochemical reactions occur and are responsible for her bonding with, and her general attachment to that child for the rest of her life, and the act of the baby nursing while looking her in the eyes is the process by which a child bonds with their mother.

So yea, the bonding process is VERY real, and people are definitely damaging that in themselves with hookups and recreational dating.

BTW. You're not too old to have a child. The truth is a grown man is far more qualified to be a dad than someone who is still in his twenties still trying to figure himself and everything else out. As men there is a reason we remain fertile so late in life.

You've got another 40 years or more in you where as anyone regardless of how young they are can die any day..nice raised kids already and they turned out great, but I feel that now, at the age of 47/ could do a way better job, and really help to send a human off into the world with a really good start simply based on the experience and mind that I've gathered and developed since my first child was born.
 
pollinator
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The current research is that men shouldn't be procreating much longer than women should. Major genetic defects can and do occur. 20's and 30's are prime procreation ages for both sexes.

I love that people realize that they don't "need" to be in a relationship, and it's all about wants. Staying in a relationship because you "need" to is extremely toxic.
 
Steve Johnston
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Stacy Witscher wrote:The current research is that men shouldn't be procreating much longer than women should. Major genetic defects can and do occur. 20's and 30's are prime procreation ages for both sexes.

I love that people realize that they don't "need" to be in a relationship, and it's all about wants. Staying in a relationship because you "need" to is extremely toxic.



I'm sure a mans fertility depends on his own personal health and vitality.

If that research was done on men in general as opposed to excessively healthy or in healthy, or any specific demographic than I would expect results like that in our society and culture.

I've actually viewed my little guys  through a microscope and I have no doubts about their vitality.

In fact every time I've viewed my sperm through a microscope it has been a profoundly empowering experience. There is a surprisingly high degree of diversity in observable characteristics that I could see. Some of them are  like ferocious animals the way they do their thing swimming around. I have to wonder if the characteristics of any random spermatozoa is any indication of the type of person that would emerge from .the contribution of that particular haploid cell?

At any rate the average american is unhealthy through and through to begin with, but at their natural healthiest during those years (20s-30s) simoly because of their youthfulness. It is the only thing propping them up, so naturally their fertility would decline at 40.
 
pollinator
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I'm not saying any of you guys consciously think this, think that it's true, or mean to say it in anything you've written, but what's coming across to me is that there's a sense that you're entitled to a woman, that you have a right to a mate. You've put in the effort of looking and wooing, you've jumped through whatever hoops you think you need to and now you're entitled to your prize. Maybe it's just how it's coming across to me and there's no truth in my perception, but it might be something to keep in mind and monitor in yourselves. It can't hurt.

The idea that women are getting arrogant or searching for men that are out their leagues is interesting to me. I'm 40. The majority of women I know older than me "settled" in some way for the man they have. Often it was because of a pregnancy that made them feel like they needed the security of a mate, even if it wasn't the one they would have chosen. Often it was because they live in a small town and just didn't have many choices. In the past, these women gave up higher education, career advancement, entrepreneurialism to fit their lives to their husband's plans and the not necessarily expected existence of children. Now, they cook food they're bored of cause it's what their husbands like, they limit their social activities to ones their husbands like, etc. I know men do these sorts of things for their wives as well. I'm not trying to make any comparisons there.

What I am trying to say is that now that women are not so dependent on men, as they traditionally have been in many ways, they're more free to pick the men they actually want. You think women are getting pickier or arrogant. It may be that you're just used to women settling for less than they actually need for a fulfilling relationship.

Generally, women have much closer emotional bonds with friends than men do. They don't necessarily need or want a spouse for that emotional support, they don't need the financial support, and they like having sex. That might be part of what you're seeing with hookups increasing.

Something that may be helpful to you personally is to develop your male friendships. Men typically rely on women in their lives to fulfill their emotional needs, which isn't the healthiest. Having those emotionally open relationships with other men isn't something our society teaches men to do, but I think, if you're feeling lonely, frustrated, rejected, whatever, in dating, you need to deal with that and find emotional connection with another human. And I don't mean you should just talk about how shitty women are and end up forming your own incel group 😋

Jordan and Steve, you've shared your ages. I'm sympathetic, cause you are in a bit of a tough age range. Maybe you just need to wait a few years for all the angry, newly divorced women to blow off some steam and start looking for someone who isn't like their first husband.😁
 
Steve Johnston
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Jan White wrote:I'm not saying any of you guys consciously think this, think that it's true, or mean to say it in anything you've written, but what's coming across to me is that there's a sense that you're entitled to a woman, that you have a right to a mate. You've put in the effort of looking and wooing, you've jumped through whatever hoops you think you need to and now you're entitled to your prize. Maybe it's just how it's coming across to me and there's no truth in my perception, but it might be something to keep in mind and monitor in yourselves. It can't hurt.

The idea that women are getting arrogant or searching for men that are out their leagues is interesting to me. I'm 40. The majority of women I know older than me "settled" in some way for the man they have. Often it was because of a pregnancy that made them feel like they needed the security of a mate, even if it wasn't the one they would have chosen. Often it was because they live in a small town and just didn't have many choices. In the past, these women gave up higher education, career advancement, entrepreneurialism to fit their lives to their husband's plans and the not necessarily expected existence of children. Now, they cook food they're bored of cause it's what their husbands like, they limit their social activities to ones their husbands like, etc. I know men do these sorts of things for their wives as well. I'm not trying to make any comparisons there.

What I am trying to say is that now that women are not so dependent on men, as they traditionally have been in many ways, they're more free to pick the men they actually want. You think women are getting pickier or arrogant. It may be that you're just used to women settling for less than they actually need for a fulfilling relationship.

Generally, women have much closer emotional bonds with friends than men do. They don't necessarily need or want a spouse for that emotional support, they don't need the financial support, and they like having sex. That might be part of what you're seeing with hookups increasing.

Something that may be helpful to you personally is to develop your male friendships. Men typically rely on women in their lives to fulfill their emotional needs, which isn't the healthiest. Having those emotionally open relationships with other men isn't something our society teaches men to do, but I think, if you're feeling lonely, frustrated, rejected, whatever, in dating, you need to deal with that and find emotional connection with another human. And I don't mean you should just talk about how shitty women are and end up forming your own incel group 😋

Jordan and Steve, you've shared your ages. I'm sympathetic, cause you are in a bit of a tough age range. Maybe you just need to wait a few years for all the angry, newly divorced women to blow off some steam and start looking for someone who isn't like their first husband.😁



I'm not sure what you mean about my age, a d how that applied to what I said. I have no problem meeting women and going out on dates. My commentary has nothing g to do with that.

Yes s we know that with birth control and tinder type apps women are going through changes, and not all of them are benificial to them or society because of what it does to their ability to bond. Even if  they decide to stop doing by that becausr they decide that they actually donwant a guy to pair bond with they will not be table to because of the very real biochemical bonding processes activates by "just sex" is affecting  their ability to form lasting bonds.

I've always preferred independent women as I alluded to in my post.

We were discussing more what that is doing to them and society that they are mostly forming many bonds with guys they have only judged by a superficial dating profile, and doing it quite often.

That anyone said we entitled to a woman is pure projection likely based on the fact that your finding the statistics and data available upsetting.


I'm not entitled to a woman, but I have no problem meeting them.

If I wanted to do what many of the women are doing in those venues, recreational dating and meaningless sex, I'd  have no problem with being able to do that. As i said when i put down im looking for hookups i get way more matches.

The facts are the roles have largely reversed and now women are the asshole guys who only want guys for superficial reasons purely for sex.

We were discussing what that does on a biochemical and social level, and how its 100% dependent on corporations .if your going to try to put me in a frame work because your defending an ideal, I'd appreciate you put your references to me in quotes.

I actully agree that to a degree that what you are idealizing about modern dating is good. I've never wanted a convention relationship, and have always found independent women more attractive.

But corporations are creating something that disregards our physiology and the fact that sex initiates an irreversible biochemical bonding process.

I mentioned that I've seen trends rise and fall in women's profiles on the apps, and the newest one is that they are looking for there forever person, last first kiss, someone to grow old with, etc etc.

But that generation of women have screwed themselves out of the ability to contribute to that by programming their brains via hookups and NSA sex.

You say they form deeper bonds with their friends etc, well they are forming many bonds with strangers via sex that will absolutely ruin the chances of what they seem to really want which is to form a meaningful bond with a man they really like.

It has happened to men as well, but now it is mostly happening to women, and to way more of them than ever happened to men.

I delete the apps, and go back on them and I see a lot of the exact same women on them that have been there the entire time.

You should see how they change what they are seeking.

That, as I explained is why I said it is a state of chaos trying to find order.

What I said about my experience is that although I get plenty of matches and chat with plenty of them, Ii no longer think its worth the gas money to go meet up with most of them, due to what the "gift" the big corporations have given them has done to them.
 
Steve Johnston
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An interesting thing that I've observed is that women in my age group are the ones who went overboard with hookups, and are now all looking for their 'forever guy', 'best friend and lover' like I am looking for the inverse.

A lot of very young girls are going overboard too, but the women I seem to be finding common ground with who are down to earth although independent are tin the 30 to 40 range.

So my thought is that the much younger generation, as in people who are children now are going to see what's happening to the older generations and that they will deal with it all very differently, and without abandoning binds pendency will revert to more 'old fashioned'/ways. Not implying female subjection and patriarchy when I say 'old fashioned'

If I weren't neuro-divergent I probably would be like these people I'm referring to in that I probably would have had so many sexual partners that I'd be incapable of settling down when I realized that's what I wanted to do.

I feel lucky in a way that I am not neuro-typical because I am capable of settling down.  In fact, of the women I am chatting with right now, the first me I actually might like  and who I did not meet through a dating app is a neurodivergent woman who is around 39/who dies not use those apps and has not been drawn into the delusion that promiscuity is freedom.


Every single culture on earth has some sort of marriage/pair bonding system that they develop regardless of how they arrange kinship. Over 80% of those cultures including in non industrialized societies/tribal systems marry in nuclear family arrangements as in M/F monogamy.

The resin the phenomenon is universal among humans is because if they do things the way we are doing them now, in this s society incest is inevitable, and all sorts of birth defects arise by not being able to track or know whose baby is whose.

In a world that doesn't have corporations making this possible the birth defects are usually dealt with by the woman having to kill her new born child with her own bare hands.

So there is a reality of what's going on, and an idealized view of what's going on.

I'm not just griping about women behaving like the men that woman have typically demonized, I'm pointing out that its unsustainable and is leading women, at least a segment of them into a life of loneliness.

What they call, enforced monogomy in the social sciences has nothing to do with forcing women under male subjection. It is the widespread phenomenon where culture and custom reinforces and promotes an environment where marriages are supported by the culture and random promiscuity is not, due to what it will absolutely do to the gene pool.

The reason why all cultures don't his is as I pointed out they already learned that organization is preferable to chaos, and in the end 99.99% of the people are happier that way, and mor fulfilled.

What's happening in our society is a reflection of our society and culture, not one of the universal human condition.
 
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i agree OP, society has become extremely toxic, and this is the unfortunate reality of many / most / at least in terms of so called "first world" type people, living in these extremely toxic cultures and subcultures.
we are taught badly and the default programming is extremely unhealthy, you have to steal your mind back and unlearn a lot of this -- and this will make you maladjusted to the current whirl.

the saddest part of it is -- people are so used to these sociopathic/toxic/disempowering/downright abusive type dynamics - this passes for normal. so the normalization of this type of stuff, thats what really scary. people are so immeshed in these unhealthy paradigms of abuse/exploitation/ commodification of everyone each other -- they can't imagine what it would be like to live in a healthy society, to not be treated abusively, to be respected and to work things out reasonably and without drama.

people are so normalized to the dysfunction and mental illness and toxic paradigms of our culture, they cant even see something else. it is either get over on someone or they get over on you, dog eat dog, extreme types of thinking. obviously theres so much more in the plurality of experiences -- but people get stuck on those abusive power dynamics and toxic behavior.
 
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Just a little reminder to the young men that may come across this conversation: If you are healthy, thriving, and have a relatable sense of ambition you are the prize.  Society has been working overtime to convince you otherwise.  I'm pushing 50, and dating women half my age (milk and wine).  I find the naivety of youth preferable to the baggage of a divorcee/children.  Evidently this is an arrangement many women, perhaps most, find agreeable (at least while they are young, anyway).  Is it ideal?  Sometimes.  It's definitely better than settling for someone who won't appreciate you.    

Every single married male friend that I have has expressed envy at my lifestyle.  I don't envy theirs.  Am I missing out on something?  Probably.  Does that mean that life can't be great?  Definitely not.  
 
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What isn't wrong with dating today? I have thought about this quite a bit and have all but given up on dating. Here are the problems that I see:

The process of dating has become very commodified. Instead of trying to get to know another complex and flawed human being, people are looking for a perfect consumable object that already fits seamlessly into their vision of life. People are too tied to their preconceived checklists of what they are looking for in a mate and do not give enough people the chance to grow on them. People have the sense that someone better is always just around the corner, so why settle for imperfection? I cannot tell you how many dating profiles I have seen in which potential partners were admonished to keep looking if they liked a particular [brand of clothing, TV show, celebrity, food, etc.]. You could have a person who is compatible in all major respects, but because she wears New Balance or likes a reality TV show, she is prematurely written off. The checklist mentality also means that people end up trying to find someone who is a reflection of themselves, and they have less and less appreciation for other people's differences. Similarly, people have low tolerance for the process of getting to know another person. They want instant chemistry, and if that is not there, they probably won't want to spend more time on a second date. Everyone is employing dehumanizing checklists, and yet they are all upset when they are on the losing end of someone else's unreasonable checklist.

Additionally, dating has become unmoored from tradition, and people are navigating it without the social rules formerly provided for picking a spouse. People do not know how to pick partners for the long-term and end up focusing on superficial things, like height and taste in music. Outside of religion, we are not encouraged to understand what our own values are, let alone how to find others who share those values. It took me a long time to realize that my slow living values were an invisible source of friction in contemporary dating, and even once I recognized that fact, there was no easy way for me to find others who share those values, certainly not on an online dating site where the selection criteria is already pre-ordained. I believe it is best to focus on meeting others through shared activities surrounding one's values, which brings me to the next problem.

There has been a severe erosion of community in recent decades. If you do not find a life partner in school, it becomes infinitely harder to do so after you graduate because there are few places where an adult can meet other people with enough regularity to develop intimacy and affectionate feelings. There are very few adult community groups that allow for pressure-free socializing where dating is not the over-arching goal. Without that opportunity for connection, people fall into checklist commodification and raise their standards for things that are more superficial, excluding candidates who they might otherwise have hit it off with if given more time. And the increasing digital technology means people have less incentive to leave their homes to be entertained anyway. As the social fabric unravels, so does the romantic.

Further, the erosion of community and increasing atomization of society means that people are generally entering romantic relationships completely starved for connection. Lacking the robust, extended social networks people had when we depended less on centralized institutions for our daily needs and more on each other, people place high expectations on romantic relationships to fulfill all of their social needs, needs that would be better spread across multiple relationships. These expectations place a lot of pressure on the relationships, and partners chafe at the demands and the connection groans under the weight of the expectations.

Finally, people are really bad at communicating in relationships. They don't know how to communicate their needs and boundaries (and probably lack the self-awareness to know what those are) and do not feel empowered to try to negotiate the terms of the relationship. Without the option of negotiation, the only options remaining are to suffer through or go scorched-earth and end everything. People do not know how to put in the work to build a relationship.

With all of this in mind, I think dating is a fairly doomed proposition.


Steve Johnston wrote:
The facts are the roles have largely reversed and now women are the asshole guys who only want guys for superficial reasons purely for sex.



You are painting your "facts" with an awfully broad brush. This does not describe any women I know.
 
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I think you’re seeing the absolute noisiest (read most obnoxious and toxic) sector of the dating pool on TikTok. The sensational stuff will get the most clicks, so the algorithm will like it best.

My wife and I met on OKCupid ten years ago. Even back then, 70% of LGBTQ couples were meeting online if only because finding a mutual match was like looking for a needle in a haystack and then once you found it determining if it had the right gauge and whatnot. It can really be a great tool.
 
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What’s wrong with dating?

So, so many things.

The last time I turned on my dating profile I turned it off again within the week. I got my first blatant wanna f- message in under an hour, an all new record.  I’m pretty open minded about things but if we don’t have the same life or relationship goals it’s not going to work and I'm not interested in investing a bunch of time and emotional energy into something that isn’t going to work.

Chatted with one guy and in the course of the chat he told me he’d “have to” “Jedi mind trick” me into doing something that I've had ample opportunities to do but very definitely don’t want to do. Ummm…gee thanks for letting me know you don’t respect boundaries right off the bat. I told him it was cool if he wanted to do the thing but I wasn’t going to and if he couldn’t respect that I wasn’t the girl for him. 🤷🏼‍♀️ I wasn’t the girl for him.

Honestly, I think that’s what’s wrong with dating and society today. People aren’t willing to accept and respect other people’s decisions and boundaries. If someone is actively anti- something I’m pro- (or vice versa) in their 40s and beyond, I assume it’s *highly unlikely* that anything I say or do will change their minds. Maybe they’ll get new information or have an experience that will change their mind but arguing my pov is not gonna do it. That’s cool. I’ve got people in my life who I absolutely, totally disagree with on some core issues. I’m not gonna date them but I love and respect them because I know where their pov comes from and they aren’t trying to manipulate me into changing my mind.

I’m not everyone’s cup of tea but I’m possibly someone’s shot of whiskey. And if not someone else’s, I like whiskey. 😉

 
pollinator
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I’ve enjoyed reading the many responses and can empathize with the difficulties many have experienced in finding someone who has similar core values as them in our current culture, even with the online ‘dating’ opportunities. I wrote about my comical experience here: https://permies.com/t/174516/put

One of my favorite books on the topic (what’s wrong with dating today) is How to Avoid Falling in Love with a Jerk by John Van Epp, PhD. I think it’s a great book for women and men (or however you identify) who are looking to find a healthy and enjoyable, monogamous, LTR that could end in marriage. I listened to the audiobook but would’ve like a hard copy to highlight and take notes in. I often share the statistics with friends (and even acquaintances) ask why their relationships didn’t work out or follow a similar destructive pattern.

I’ve certainly fallen in love with jerks in my lifetime and as an imperfect human I can always work on being less of a ‘jerkette’ myself.

This book does talk about the bonding chemicals and negative repercussions of the ‘hookup’ lifestyles mentioned in posts above.

I’ve personally found ‘dating’ is just not for me.

Best wishes on finding that special someone whether dating or NOT dating,
 
Diana Marmont
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Angel Hunt wrote: If you do not find a life partner in school, it becomes infinitely harder to do so after you graduate because there are few places where an adult can meet other people with enough regularity to develop intimacy and affectionate feelings. There are very few adult community groups that allow for pressure-free socializing where dating is not the over-arching goal.



This is so true. Even the activities the local library used to host that were in-person are now almost all online. They host things for teens that are in person but nothing for adults.

If you don’t work outside the home or drink at bars regularly or attend church regularly the odds of meeting an interesting adult to date are probably astronomical.
 
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I have been married 47 years to the same man. I am sooo thankful not to be on the dating scene now days!  There are loads of issues to have to look out for and avoid not only for your own safety but also to have a life not full of stress. Addictions of all kind to name a few common ones.... drugs, alcohol, gambling,. Then there are the behaviors that are not always visible even after a few months into a relationship.
  I told my husband the other day... thank you for not having a man bun, a man purse, not having us live in a home on wheels, no addictions, a kind heart and never being physically abusive.
   I have talked to loads of women that just don't look at the person they are checking out in a way to avoid so many of these life problems. I am a traditionalist for sure but tradition many times is just that because it works in most cases.
  I talked to one young woman. I asked her what are your requirements in a man? She said what do you mean? I said have you made a list of things that you are looking for and a list of things that are a absolute no go? She still had no clue what I was talking about. When I said well when you look at him how does he dress? Hat on backwards? How do his clothes fit, baggy pants? Is the clothing clean and worn well? When he talks about money does he talk about people in his family and where they work or how many are getting money from the government? How does he treat his mother, sisters and other family? How does the other men in the family treat the women? Does he have a car or truck ? Is it clean and kept in good shape and paid for?
   All these are basic things most people would think a person would know to look for but the answers I get to most of these questions other than I don't know is... I don't judge people! Crazy! That is the reason why this one person has had 3 men that beat the living daylights out of her and stalks her trying to kill her!
   Not all women or men for that matter are that totally unaware of the things to look out for.  I tell any woman you need a car and house in your name only. Credit cards are for you only not to pay off his bills. Bank accounts in your name only with your own money not his. If you really want to get to know a man or woman better before jumping in and wasting a lot of time have them fill out a bank loan form. This is not to see how much money they have but to see WHAT they do with their money and how they live their lives. How many toys they are paying on. How much child support ect. How many jobs they have had in the last few years. If you happen to see they actually have money saved in a bank account wonderful they can actually plan and control themselves!
     If you manage to figure all that out and get to the point of dating or spending time together then you may want to even think about sex with that person. I swear... I am not kidding... I would have them vet checked first for diseases. Life is hard enough with out getting something from romping in the hay with someone!
   Start looking local if your wanting someone to share your life or spend some time with. It's easier to check them out with the people in town and you can also check out the last relationship person. See what their problem was and if you can live with that issue. People rarely change. Usually the problems they had with the last few people are still going to be there for you to find and deal with.

Ranchmama


 
Cletus Hatfield
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I heard a statistic recently that said the average adult spends 11 hours per day in a mediated reality.  11 HOURS A DAY staring at a screen.  I'm unfortunately one of these victims for the time being (due to circumstances around a topic that is probably sensored, and unrelated injuries) , but it is no way to live.  Depending on the content consumed, it's likely no way to be one's best self.  

Prior to the topic alluded to above there was research showing a direct relationship between device time and anxiety, depression, and some things I've forgotten.  I'm guessing this research is still available with some keyword exploration.  My experience has been that the vast majority of people maintain rigid cognitive dissonance and flatly refuse to consider that their preferred device is a problem, despite having all of the predictable symptoms.  

I'm very much an introvert, but I have little trouble meeting people when I'm riding my bike, hiking, swimming, visiting places of worship, traveling, just being what used to be considered "normal".  
 
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You are mostly correct in many ways!
1. each person has a different sex drive - slow - medium - fast and this applies to men and women.
2. females often will state what they want - many are tired of living in a male dominate society - their values tell them to be straight forward what and say what they feel they desire
3. casual sex is usually not the best option - disease transmission - often more than STD's - someone becomes emotionally involved and when the other "moves on" struggles to deal with the rejection - feeling it is a reflection on their self
4. as we age it is more difficult to encounter some one of the same age range - similar values - the tricky part most people live within 6 miles of each other (when they are in the 20 to 45 age range) - what does this say?  it says they are often of the same racial group, same financial level, share similar religious beliefs and may even be distantly related!!  because they are often doing the same thing - going to school, starting a career, raising kids.
5. Some times it is difficult to "find your pond" when your mainly work with your own sex group - teachers - nurses - usually female - construction - often men - or you are retired and do go many places -  so how do you get out of your pond?  internet reaches across distances - civil organizations - hobby clubs  - maybe - maybe not - church???  if you can think of somethings better let me know!
6. Do how do you find the correct one for you?  Write down your values - please more than the ten commandments - detailed ones.
7. Now where do you go - search for someone who has the same values??  Bars? internet? dance clubs?  this is where you have to decide what fits you.   Go forth and look after you have made your own life map and started on your journey for you.  Why? you are the only person who can make you happy!  Like the joke about the old maid - she keep praying for a man - one day a voice from on high spoke to her - what do you think I am going to delivery him to your door?  get out and find the one you want!!
 
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I've been happily out of the dating scene since I married.  
But in the few years leading up to it, I experienced frustrations and doubts similar to what many people are reporting here.

I don't shop on the Internet if I can find what I want locally.  
If what you want is for the pipes to fit, you can do OK.  Once you get something home, it is almost never what you hoped - different size, different fit, materials not as nice as what was described.  If what you want is for it to 'feel right,' it's almost always better to hit thrift shops or a high-quality local retailer.

Internet "society" is some of the most strident, fake, and provocative behavioral excess you can find anywhere.
Online photos are misleading, and I can only imagine how much worse that is when you combine several popular flavors of click-bait (attractive people, drama, negativity, sex).  
If you believe what you read online, every family is in the middle of some desperate scandal, every relationship is about to be Dramatically Betrayed, every puppy is about to get stolen and killed by PETA.  And then there are lovely havens where people talk about chicken farming and refurbishing old mechanical contraptions, but they are rare and bring people together from all over the world.

It's got to be particularly deceptive trying to find love online.

For myself, I can predict conversational compatibility OK online - I've really enjoyed meeting some Internet friends in the real world.  But romantic/sexual attraction, for me, is much more of an in-person thing.  How a person smells and moves; how they handle things - tools.  None of that comes across well online.  It takes a Hollywood film crew to make someone appear more attractive on video than they are in person - for most ordinary people, the video falls far short of the reality.  And a perfectly attractive person who looks good in a photo, and is charming in person, can still lack that certain 'something.'  Expectations - ambitions - ethics - religion or other beliefs.  Sometimes if the attraction and shared values are strong enough, you can ignore one or two incompatibilities, and work through them.  But someone who is 100% compatible on paper, and no physical attraction - that's not what I was looking for.  
I wanted a relationship that would include both initial romance and long-term fidelity.  For me, selfish creature that I am, that meant I wanted to be head-over-heels enough that I would remember the feeling, even after it faded.  If I ever had a crush on somebody else, I would know it wasn't worth leaving over.

We met at a city event, in a city with a fun singles scene.  Although I had lived in that city as a young adult, he wouldn't have done so except for medical necessity, and was glad to leave when we got the chance.  So it's possible to meet a partner who will be happy to retreat back out to the country with you, while using the city singles scene for dating.

...
I got a lot of value out of the old advice, "Don't worry about finding a date.  Go do stuff you like to do, but do it with a group.  Take a class or join a club.  Sign up for events.  You will meet people who like the same stuff you do, you might be able to date them, but in any case you had fun, made friends, and spent the time doing things you enjoyed."

Although I've been happily homebody-ish both before and after marriage, it's hard to meet people that way.
 
In my case I took classes in martial arts, worked and volunteered with some not-for-profits that supported sustainable, community-oriented events and science education.  
There are lots of other classes that might appeal to a homebody who is exploring socially: cooking classes for ethnic cuisine, first aid or CPR classes, farm skills classes like grafting or conferences showcasing new cash crops.

Consider taking classes that appeal to people of the sex you are interested in.  Although neither of us picked up dates that way, my husband cross-trained as a ballet dancer for many years, and went along on modeling cattle-calls with friends for a lark.  I work and volunteer in various male-dominated fields; if I wanted to start dating again, I'd have lots of options.  "The odds are good but the goods are odd," as they say.  A male homebody could do worse than take some classes on knitting, canning, or fiber arts where it's likely to be mostly women.  Females can do worse than learn to fix your own equipment, take some engineering or tech courses at a local college, or volunteer in disaster relief or emergency response.  Don't fake interest in order to find dates - but if you're interested, and normally uncomfortable being the only person of your gender in the room, it's worth giving it a try.

I generally don't date at work if I can help it.  The few times I've made an exception, there was some embarrassment as a result.  I don't tend to burn bridges with exes, but if you do, workplace romance is an even worse idea.  Dating work-mates can easily create problems both legal and social for you and your work team.  Don't use hiring or employment as an excuse to meet people.  I would recommend don't date at work unless you're willing to give up your job over it - and if there is a power differential where one of you is the other's boss/supervisor, giving up the job first and then exploring the romance would be the ethical way to do it.

I sympathize with folks that are mostly homebodies but still want a partner.  That does make it harder to find someone who genuinely wants a similar lifestyle.  
But I still think it's worth trying the "meet people by doing things you like" approach, if you're not having much luck with the Internet dating thing.

One other insight about social networks comes to mind.  For everyone, chances are if you have a 'friend' on Facebook, they have more friends than you.  Likewise in real life.  This is especially true if you are more introverted or have few social connections - almost guaranteed your friends have more friends than you.
So if you are getting burned out on trying to find the right match for yourself, consider enlisting a couple of well-connected friends.  Ideally, friends you can be honest with - "I'd love to meet other singles in the area, but for goodness sake, please don't make it weird."  

You could invite your friend to bring their friends and family over for a farm party at your place - tamales, cider pressing, sheep-shearing, canning, barn-raising, music gathering, whatever makes sense.  You can also go to these kinds of gatherings that others host.  Often there's one or two farms that host a really big party each year for the homesteader types, might be a harvest festival, winter solstice/new years', whatever.  Ask around where local homesteaders shop or eat.

If nothing else, getting out into the local social scene will be a good reality-check on all the exaggerated, unrealistic, and unpalatable Internet weirdness.  

Good luck.  I hope it happens for you in a lovely, healthy, and memorable way.
 
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Jan White wrote:I'm not saying any of you guys consciously think this, think that it's true, or mean to say it in anything you've written, but what's coming across to me is that there's a sense that you're entitled to a woman, that you have a right to a mate. You've put in the effort of looking and wooing, you've jumped through whatever hoops you think you need to and now you're entitled to your prize. Maybe it's just how it's coming across to me and there's no truth in my perception, but it might be something to keep in mind and monitor in yourselves. It can't hurt.



I certainly don't believe that, and I haven't seen anything posted here that made me think that about any other man posting here. Perhaps this is a good issue to note down as a major problem in dating today, either men not realizing they are objectifying women, or perhaps women seeing objectification when it isn't there. I have personally spent a great deal of time thinking about the best way to treat a woman. I try to follow the golden rule. I do not jump through hoops. I am straightforward and honest. I will not ask a woman out twice. If she were to turn me down, I will respect her decision. From my own moral code, I refuse to approach a woman who is "taken." This is a major blow to me, because at least where I live women are very seldom available. They tend to go directly from one relationship to the next. I have heard women say that they don't want to be alone for loneliness reasons and also because if they are alone no guy will want them. I am pretty sure there have been times women wanted me to try to "steal" them, but I refuse. I've always said that the first step to stealing a woman is to believe she is an object that can be owned. And if a woman sees herself as an object, then I guess she isn't for me anyway.

What I find so interesting about this is that I see a tremendous amount of men (a majority, I would say) objectifying women yet being chosen by women. On many occasions I have been around a group of women and one of them mentions how "men change the instant they are married." I have noticed this seems to be one of their favorite topics, as they all instantly jump in and start telling their own stories. Of course I know from what I've seen in courtships that the men didn't change the instant they were married, they simply stopped jumping through all the hoops it took to "win the prize." It has always surprised and dismayed me how women often seem surprised by this. They only consider men who are willing to play games and treat them as prizes, but reject men who refuse to play games and treat them like an equal, like they would want to be treated themselves. This is one reason I am such an advocate for people to stop being so dishonest when dating (or in general, really). If a woman has a choice between an honest man and a dishonest man, she has every right to choose the dishonest one. But the honest man has every right to complain about it. And this is another issue I see a lot. There seems to be a lot of victim blaming when it comes to men complaining about or even trying to objectively analyze the dating scene. From what I've seen, men tend to be instantly called incels, or whatever, and it appears to be socially acceptable to mock them and not take them seriously. And then when the dishonest men give themselves a bad name, the honest men also get lumped into the "all men are X" insults, so are doubly defamed.

The idea that women are getting arrogant or searching for men that are out their leagues is interesting to me. I'm 40. The majority of women I know older than me "settled" in some way for the man they have. Often it was because of a pregnancy that made them feel like they needed the security of a mate, even if it wasn't the one they would have chosen. Often it was because they live in a small town and just didn't have many choices. In the past, these women gave up higher education, career advancement, entrepreneurialism to fit their lives to their husband's plans and the not necessarily expected existence of children. Now, they cook food they're bored of cause it's what their husbands like, they limit their social activities to ones their husbands like, etc.



I do believe arrogance is becoming more prevalent among all genders. Maybe it has always been there but is just being allowed out in the open more, I don't know. In any case, I think we are dealing with more of it now. How else to explain MGTOW? Why would so many men give up on dating all of a sudden if either they hadn't become more arrogant or they were leaving as a result of not wanting to deal with women who were becoming more arrogant, or both? A statistic that comes to mind is that 69% of divorces are initiated by women, but if a woman has a degree it becomes 90%. I understand it is quite common for a woman to even get a degree while married and then divorce not long after. That difference may not be due to arrogance, but it may be. Also if a woman makes more money than her husband, the divorce rate goes up.

I do not like "settling." I believe it causes a lot of harm to society. If everyone was with the best possible person for them, I can't even imagine how much better the world would be. I believe we are all incomplete to some degree, and finding someone to complete us will greatly improve our lives, and therefore the lives of those around us. I think the majority of people could make a relationship work with about 80% of potential suitors if they had to. Some are not so lucky. Some people have issues that make them more uniquely suited for a far smaller percentage. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and the trade-off is that with the correct person, they can really gain a whole lot more ability to change the world around them than most.

Something that may be helpful to you personally is to develop your male friendships. Men typically rely on women in their lives to fulfill their emotional needs, which isn't the healthiest. Having those emotionally open relationships with other men isn't something our society teaches men to do, but I think, if you're feeling lonely, frustrated, rejected, whatever, in dating, you need to deal with that and find emotional connection with another human. And I don't mean you should just talk about how shitty women are and end up forming your own incel group 😋



Unfortunately, this would not be helpful to me, but rather detrimental. There is a reason I need a soulmate type of relationship. I do not in any way desire any type of emotional connection to men. I do not like male culture. I do not like the "bro code" or "bros before ho's" or the comradery of watching sports, or talking about cars, or saying, "Hey, did you see the ass on that one?" At least where I live, married people don't hang out with single people. So the only people who want to hang out and do stuff are typically going to be exactly the type of guy I don't want to be around. I would generally prefer the company of women (who won't want to hang out with me) and even so, I still don't want to develop an emotional connection to any friend. To me the entire purpose of having a true loving relationship is that emotional connection. One person, and one person only.

Every so often in the past, I would allow myself to get suckered into the whole "having friends" thing. I could actually enjoy hanging out with groups, but the greatest hope I had was to hopefully find someone special while going out and doing things. (Most relationships in my area are the result of mutual acquaintances.)  What I found was that I was essentially putting the cart before the horse. Having friends means having drama. And friends betray you just like lovers do. I can only tolerate a certain amount of heartache or disappointment, much less than most people. And every time I get hurt my threshold gets lower.  So if my allotment is used up on dealing with friends, I have no energy left to attempt a relationship with someone. If I had someone who loved me truly, I would have all the strength in the world to deal with any bullshit people throw at me. Just knowing that I had someone who would always believe in me and be there for me would be all I need, but that's just the catch 22.

Jordan and Steve, you've shared your ages. I'm sympathetic, cause you are in a bit of a tough age range. Maybe you just need to wait a few years for all the angry, newly divorced women to blow off some steam and start looking for someone who isn't like their first husband.



I am glad you shared this. I think it's an excellent example of what many guys face in the dating world. It shows how offensive people can be towards men and often not even realize it. This post started by talking about men feeling entitled as if they deserve a woman. I don't feel I deserve a woman, but I do feel I deserve being treated like a human being. I feel men deserve to be treated like they have feelings. I feel like what should have been the best years of my life have been stolen from me by liars and cheaters. But we joke that that's okay because I just have to wait a few more years because the angry divorcees, who married poorly yet have had their children, had all of their firsts, developed their careers, indeed lived virtually an entire life, well, they deserve a second chance. They need someone to take all their baggage for them. No thanks.
 
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(My first post on permies.com) This topic strikes me ... I found & registered with permies.com specifically because I was seeking to find a partner with a deep interest in permaculture located in my region (Toronto, Ontario, Canada). Only now with my middle age in full flight am I actually interested in finding someone! Some of us are late bloomers.

I can only answer what's wrong with me and dating (based on in-person interactions or text-based with contacts already in my network... I have not truly opened the door of online dating): First, I've never related well to the word "dating". I never wanted to date - I wanted to find the one right for me and go forth from there. Didn't happen! I got really busy with my interests and work. I'm shy & awkward & take a long time to feel at ease. I "don't have time" for it. I don't have too much experience with it (I think because of walls I put up, based on messaging I internalized, traumas unrelated to dating, and lack of trust that it was possible to find a healthy partnership based on bad familial examples). Also, I resent the focus on "sex too soon" (for me ... based on how I know my heart/mind responds to this. Or maybe it's been how my heart/mind responds to this aspect of relationships with the person who is wrong for me! I resent that this preference of mine is judged as old-fashioned and quickly gets me written off.)

Anyhoo ... When I have more bandwidth to sincerely seek a partner, I will keep in mind what I have appreciated in the posts from some of you who have focused on knowing oneself, knowing one's values & having a clear picture of what one seeks. Also, the exhortation to get out into one's community to meet people. You are pointing the way for those of us who seek something "right" in the dating quest!

 
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Heather Sharpe wrote:They suggested that as a woman, you shouldn't initiate contact, rather waiting for the man to do so.



Weird because I always received the *opposite* advice from coaches, online, in person all sorts of people always would tell me that. The thinking was to change the usual traditional way things were done in order to shake things into happening. Maybe people could read I was pretty passive and so I needed the extra cheerleading. I always staunchly refused to go talk to anyone and proudly can look back and say "I never initiated and never pursued anyone". Stupid ego....

In retrospect I think women should as a rule- not pursue, not be pushy- but be the initiators. Use your intuition then initiate the chat, meeting or date. All the abuser situations Ive heard of were initiated by the man. Good guys usually do exactly what you mentioned in this post, remain more passive and respectful. It's the a-holes who do the aggressive pursuing without any care for how you might feel, they could come off etc. Think about it. Good people will generally feel shy, consider themselves and others, take more time and sometimes need to be coaxed into pursuing ("covert narcissists" aside, theyre usually the biggest manipulators). This way you can avoid the jerks while pursuing the laid back quiet non-aggressive types who are usually better people.

Really, I guess gender is irrelevant and anyone should do more pursuing if they're usually more passive and wait for the potential to do so.

I believe this firmly now as an older woman looking back at everything Ive seen. Hope this makes sense.

I blame everything on late stage capitalism and urbanization. Too many people packed in too tightly everywhere. Takes the romance out of everything.

 
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I think part of the problem has to do with the fact that it's hard to see ourselves. You know yourself, but not the same way someone who isn't you can understand you. It  surely helps to have good friends and communities helping each other out when it comes to finding a partner.

I'm not saying that we should have arranged marriages, but when the culture disconnects people from each other and prioritizes personal accomplishment over community solidarity it's hard to understand the way a good partnerships heal and support a whole community.  It's easier for people to not show up as their best in relationships when there isn't a community support when something is difficult (bound to happen at some points) and holding people accountable. It becomes easy for people to think that they are looking for the "best" partner and not the right partner.  
 
arianna higgins
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Steve Johnston wrote:
I live very in a very remote small town surrounded by miles and miles of national forest in every direction. There is Jo traffic lights here, and there is no traffic light for 1.5 hours of driving in any direction.



Steve Johnston wrote:

I'm actually putting in effort but just know that it will amount to nothing and go nowhere at all.

Its sad. Modern dating has made me feel isolated and lonely, but seems to promise so much access to finding true love.



It's the area. I also think people in general kind of suck but in different ways. The good ones get scooped up fast.
 
arianna higgins
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Lynne Rey wrote:I think part of the problem has to do with the fact that it's hard to see ourselves. You know yourself, but not the same way someone who isn't you can understand you.  



that's not true. others' perceptions of a thing tend to differ greatly no matter what it is. it's hard to form a rational perception of yourself when it's just abstraction upon abstraction upon abstraction. it's dangerous and unreasonable to take criticism from strangers and random dates. even more dangerous is taking criticism from someone who knows you well but isn't trustworthy.

it's better to compare your actions with others' actions and use your own analysis. this is why I read a lot. I don't trust anyone's opinions enough lol
 
arianna higgins
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Cletus Hatfield wrote: I'm pushing 50, and dating women half my age (milk and wine).  



yes but that's not difficult. young women are easier. are they high value?
 
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I have never hear anyone but myself say that  men get together with women for sex otherwise we men would hang out with each other and have fun as we men know how to.  At least we men think alike.  I have been told by many women what they want in a man but their dating choice sez much different.  At  this time in my life I hang with the boys and hike, bike, and other exhausting activities.
 
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B Knesek wrote:I asked her what are your requirements in a man? She said what do you mean? I said have you made a list of things that you are looking for and a list of things that are a absolute no go? She still had no clue what I was talking about. When I said well when you look at him how does he dress? Hat on backwards? How do his clothes fit, baggy pants? Is the clothing clean and worn well? When he talks about money does he talk about people in his family and where they work or how many are getting money from the government? How does he treat his mother, sisters and other family? How does the other men in the family treat the women? Does he have a car or truck ? Is it clean and kept in good shape and paid for?
   All these are basic things most people would think a person would know to look for but the answers I get to most of these questions other than I don't know is... I don't judge people! Crazy! That is the reason why this one person has had 3 men that beat the living daylights out of her and stalks her trying to kill her!



Last post- i can not not NOT like your comment enough. My fiance laughed so hard at it too. I'm younger than you but I guess Im traditional too- Im always shocked at how easily people call others 'judgmental' and how hard it is for them to control their trashy tendencies. I come out being the 'toxic' or 'old fashioned' one for calling them on their bs. They come looking for sympathy later though when things go wrong. Call me whatever you want, it won't be me.
 
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I think the real problem is not online dating, but instant gratification.

I only dated once, twenty years ago, off line, and we're still married. But I've watched millenials, and the issue is always the same. They have too much offer, too easy to use and therefore they're lacking commitment.

It happens the same with video games (a thing pretty much every millenial engages on). When videogames started, you got to buy a disk, it was very expensive, and you played it, no matter how hard it was, until you completed the game. Then, you were allowed to ask your parents for the next game. Nowadays they try a hundred games and finish no one, none is really satisfying, and the itching is on purchasing a brand new game rather than enjoying what you already have.
The people I know are so extreme in this laziness that they don't even want to find their mates. Dating is too much work for them.
People getting easily offended by anything isn't helping either.

If I were to date today, I think I would start using an app for learning who is available around where I live, and filtering some big NOs for me, like smoking. That's a 10% of finding a couple. Then I would need to pass some time together to check whether there's sympathy and sexual compatibility. That's another 10 %.
The other 80% is working out the relationship so it is pleasant for us all. Knowing yourself, knowing the other, knowing how you complete each other.

But if you stop at the second step and don't do the work, it rarely will happen by itself.
 
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I'm pushing 50, and dating women half my age


For some reason, this reminds me of an exchange from the '90s sitcom "Just Shoot Me" which revolved around the employees of a glossy fashion magazine. Elliot, the magazine's photographer, berates journalist Maya for dating a man half her age:

Maya: Well, what about you? You're 40 and every few months you're dating a different 20-year old supermodel! How do you explain that?
Elliot: In a loud, booming voice to every man I meet!
 
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Historically, marriage was and always was meant for bearing and raising children. So dating (or courting, as it used to be called) was for the express purpose of finding someone who would be a good father/mother down the road. Having a loving spouse and devoted spouse was obviously very important, but it was understood that ideally the marriage would end in children and family. People got married earlier, typically early twenties. All of that is pretty much out the window now, save for traditional/religious people (I'm speaking in a Western context. I promise you that the "dating scenes" in the Amazonian rain forest or on Sentinel Island are doing just fine). Our society has raised people who don't, in terms of large numbers, prioritize children first above themselves as was expected in the past, so now you have the obvious result: Lot's of internet narcissists complaining about how nobody is good enough for them.

 
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Out of your league based on your appearance shouldn't even be a part of this discussion.   Ranking people by their attractiveness and then trying to match them only in the group they "deserve" is so narrow minded.   This doesn't take into account AT ALL the preferences or desires of the other person.   Placing someone in a group and telling them to stay in it and that they should expect "more" or "better" whatever that means.. .  ICK.   If I LIKE a certain type of guy and he happens to LIKE my particular kind of look.. .. zero other people should be looking in at that saying either of us are dating outside of our league.   There is NOTHING wrong with being attractive, or feeling attractive, or being attracted to something particular.   Trying to decide that FOR other people though is a problem.  
 
Cletus Hatfield
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arianna higgins wrote:

Cletus Hatfield wrote: I'm pushing 50, and dating women half my age (milk and wine).  



yes but that's not difficult. young women are easier. are they high value?



Value is relative.  

I'm a very, very traditionally minded person at my core.  Some of the advice and commentary in this thread has, in my opinion, contributed greatly to the circumstances to which I simply adapted.  For example, something along the lines of "Does he have a nice truck?  Is it paid for?"  The question put another way is, "Is he a made man?"  Unless he was born into money the odds are that it took him time to become "made".  Young women, therefore, frequently advised in such way that it encourages them to favor older men.  This is a situation that works against many, maybe most younger men.  I'm no longer a young man.

To answer your question of whether or not these younger women are high value, I'd say yes and no.  Yes, because they've got the physical attractiveness and advantages that youth provides.  They are less likely to have children, be divorced, and be saddled with debt.  With regards to emotional maturity, age is just a number.

I'd say no, they frequently aren't high value, but only insofar as their lifestyle conforms to any median.  Generally speaking, most people's tastes and experiences are very limited and worse, confined to predefined categories.  They listen to the same music, eat the same foods, play the same games, buy the same narratives, and so on and so forth.  Their life is a box of boxes that were essentially curated for them and they don't see it.  They lack what might be called brain elasticity.  Not seeing their limitations, they too often fail to transcend them.  They aren't self-actualized, they seem completely unaware of the idea.  

I don't mean this in some new-age way.  High value, in my opinion, would be someone who appreciates my ambitions (which have nothing to do with a nice truck--I have a rust bucket and I'd prefer to not even have to rely on it), is imaginative but pragmatic, has traditional values (even if they differ from my own), doesn't have a job or at least  doesn't want one, has a healthy disrespect of third and fourth wave feminist ideas, and is exceptionally fit, to name a few things that come to mind.

I was visiting my grandmother in the hospital awhile back.  Her doctor walked into the room.  Very attractive, high energy.  Instead of greeting my grandmother she started talking to me.  All I had said was hi in my usual emotionally dead way.  As I listened to her I was a bit surprised to hear her take a defensive position and work her boyfriend into the monologue.  I just continued to listen and shortly she remembered that she was there to check in on my grandmother.  I excused myself.

I returned the next day and my grandma told me that the doctor was interested in the stories she had shared about my travels and whatnot.  When the doctor entered she had a completely different air about her.  Apparently some miracle had happened overnight and now somehow I had a chance.  The thing is, she never did.  I assumed before she started talking that she was very much tied down by typical burdens and that's not me.  And the presumption that I wasn't at least her equal made her quite unattractive.  I think most would've seen her as high value.  She certainly saw herself as high value.  I felt a sense of pity for her.  I'd like to imagine that she noticed.  Ego is a hell of a drug.



 
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What solutions could be designed to make a better “dating” process?  Communication tools or games? Contra dances…? Designs please!
 
Jan White
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Diana Marmont wrote:. I got my first blatant wanna f- message in under an hour, an all new record.  I’m pretty open minded about things but if we don’t have the same life or relationship goals it’s not going to work and I'm not interested in investing a bunch of time and emotional energy into something that isn’t going to work.

Chatted with one guy and in the course of the chat he told me he’d “have to” “Jedi mind trick” me into doing something that I've had ample opportunities to do but very definitely don’t want to do. Ummm…gee thanks for letting me know you don’t respect boundaries right off the bat.



This is one of things I liked about online dating. It made it really easy to rule out certain people quickly. In real life, most people don't talk to you like that. You might spend hours talking to them before you figured out who they actually are. Online, I was able to tell within one or two messages whether or not I wanted to spend time and effort on a guy. It's very possible I got some wrong and ruled out an amazing guy. But I also had very few negative experiences cause as soon as I saw a red flag, or even sometimes a yellow one, I didn't engage with that person.
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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Also, hey, there seems to be a lot of problem and well-articulated here.  "The problem is the solution"--what design takes that into account in this area of life?  




I'd love some "green hat" thinking.  You take a word, put it in the blank of the sentence "PO dating platform is a ________" and then explain why it works.


Here's some random words, from a random word generator, to prompt thinking from outside the box:  

direction....PO dating platform gives direction.  Where do I want to go in my life? how does what I do in romancing/courting/enduring attention contribute to that?

top...PO dating platform is a top.  Spin the bottle--whoever you get connected with you have a speed date in front of everyone, answering a few heartfelt questions.

price...PO dating platform always comes with a price.  The price is not just money...you get points off for every time you do something that takes emotional "spoons" from someone else, but you get points every time you do something that adds spoons.    (New problem--now it's a comparison and competition...compete only with yourself?)

musical

equinox

evening

of

available

prefer

huge

rule

kidnap

mystery

boy

goalkeeper



width
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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Just had a brain flash--the "sociometry" tool for choosing one person in a group that the group sense needs the attention of the group most, could be used to harness the groups' intelligence to matchmake.  I wonder what would happen?
 
Jordan Holland
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Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:What solutions could be designed to make a better “dating” process?  Communication tools or games? Contra dances…? Designs please!



A relationship counselor I saw in a video said that the most common issue that causes problems in heterosexual relationships is that men tend to process the world according to logic, and women tend to process the world according to feeling. Tensions rise when people don't see or dismiss the other person's point of view. In the end, I feel understanding and discourse is the best solution. I think we would be doing ourselves a favor to try to go beyond the superficial and delve into the deepest, sometimes most uncomfortable aspects of what it means to be who we are, and to seek a connection with someone else.
 
arianna higgins
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quote=Cletus Hatfield]  Ego is a hell of a drug.

sounds exhausting to be that way
 
arianna higgins
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Jan White wrote:

In real life, most people don't talk to you like that. You might spend hours talking to them before you figured out who they actually are.



right?? "wanna fuck?" = not you, no, never and not in a million years. Way to tell me you're a moron without telling me you're a moron!!
 
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