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In your humble opinion, what is wrong with dating today?

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posted 2 years ago

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The pity card is among the most powerful in the deck. To borrow a line from Anchorman:
"They've done studies, and 60 percent of the time, it works every time."

Devoured by giant spiders without benefit of legal counsel isn't called "justice" where I come from!
-Amazon Women On The Moon

J. Graham

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Robin and DC: thank you for replying. I think this opens up something interesting. Can either of you show me in that quoted passage where I said anything about a person (I kept it gender neutral, because I believe it applies to all) trying to use pity to start a relationship or get sex? I have reread it and I still don't see it. If it is there, I am more than willing to change it to keep from derailing the conversation.

What I gave was an extreme example I asked people to consider (which I follow myself) because we never truly know what others are going through. I asked people to please ASSUME everyone who asks them is going through some troubling times and to be kind by not treating them like they don't exist. Here's a more detailed example:

A person sees your dating profile. They see you had swiped "like" on their profile. They read your profile and like it, and write a polite message describing themselves in more detail and asking if you would like to chat and get to know each other more.

You read their message and feel that you are not a good match. You send them a message saying, "Thank you, but I don't think we are good match, and I wish you luck on your journey." This is the extent of the "relationship" between you. There is no way for you to know if they were strong or weak. There is no "pity card."

If a person tries to use manipulation to get a date, I wholeheartedly agree they are a jerk and should not be dated. I had a friend years ago ask me for advice. She said her boyfriend had left her for someone else a few weeks ago, and was now crawling back telling her that if she did not take him back he would kill himself. My advice to her was to tell him to do it, as I knew it was a bluff. I have no respect for anyone who would do such a thing to a woman.

This raises another question. It feels like people are trying really hard to put words in my mouth, and completely change what I am saying. It feels like I am trying to be made into the very type of man that is not good to women. Is this the assumptions Heather mentions? Is this a gender issue? Are people seeing me as guilty first based on preconceived notions until I prove my innocence? Is this one of the big issues with dating today? Can we not judge people by their own actions and not those of others?

“It’s said war—war never changes. Men do, through the roads they walk. And this road—has reached its end.”

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Robin Katz

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Jordan Holland wrote:Imagine that that person has had nothing but bad experiences. Nothing but failure. Imagine that that person has decided to give the world one more chance to show that life is worth living before they choose to end it. And that chance is you. Please be kind.

This statement presents an implied obligation to save the person or they will kill themselves. You don't have to come out and say the exact words for the meaning to be clear to a woman (or a lot of men).

Please re-read my post. I gave you a real life example where someone tried this on me. He didn't want a relationship. He wanted sex and used the tale of his sad life to try to make me feel pity for him.

I don't know how I can make this any clearer. Maybe present this scenario to women you know and ask for feedback.

Dc Stewart

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The point is that relationships based upon the dynamic of Kindly Savior vs Object Of Pity are doomed by granting all of the power to the Object Of Pity. Even a kindly attempt to sever the relationship is a direct challenge to the power structure. If the Object Of Pity isn't happy about the development, an attempt to re-establish dominance usually takes some form of "I was just regaining the will to live, and now you do this to me?". If the situation deteriorates further, there usually comes a hint that a few rounds of Kindly Sex might restore the Object's faith in humanity.

Devoured by giant spiders without benefit of legal counsel isn't called "justice" where I come from!
-Amazon Women On The Moon

J. Graham

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Robin Katz wrote:

Jordan Holland wrote:Imagine that that person has had nothing but bad experiences. Nothing but failure. Imagine that that person has decided to give the world one more chance to show that life is worth living before they choose to end it. And that chance is you. Please be kind.

This statement presents an implied obligation to save the person or they will kill themselves. You don't have to come out and say the exact words for the meaning to be clear to a woman (or a lot of men).

Robin Katz and DC Stewart, how is it possible to imply saving someone whom you do not know needs saving, and very likely does not need to be saved? Just to be clear: there is no suicidal person. It is make-believe. It is fantasy. It is an assumption. It is just a thought experiment to help our minds to have empathy for another human being. If we imagine what it would be like to feel hopeless, we can ask ourselves how we would like to be treated in that situation. Once again, I am not encouraging anyone to actually date a person who makes this or any other threat. There is no relationship in my scenario. My scenario gives a total lack of a relationship. One person politely asks the other out, the other person says, "no thanks." There is no relationship.

Please re-read my post. I gave you a real life example where someone tried this on me. He didn't want a relationship. He wanted sex and used the tale of his sad life to try to make me feel pity for him.

I saw that example in your post. I did not comment on it because it does not apply in any way to my scenario. First, someone actually told you about "his sad life to try to make [you] feel pity for him." That alone makes it not compare to my scenario. Second, if he did not commit suicide when you turned him down, then he was not genuine. In the hypothetical scenario I gave, it is imagined that the person is genuinely at that point of near total hopelessness. Third, in my hypothetical scenario the person actually does want a relationship.

It also bears pointing out that you say this happened one time from one guy. I believe we can learn a lot from a single experience, but at the same time can't use one experience to create a generalization about an entire gender.

The point is that relationships based upon the dynamic of Kindly Savior vs Object Of Pity are doomed by granting all of the power to the Object Of Pity. Even a kindly attempt to sever the relationship is a direct challenge to the power structure. If the Object Of Pity isn't happy about the development, an attempt to re-establish dominance usually takes some form of "I was just regaining the will to live, and now you do this to me?". If the situation deteriorates further, there usually comes a hint that a few rounds of Kindly Sex might restore the Object's faith in humanity.

Once again, there is no relationship. There is just one person politely turning down another person who politely asked them out, after which they each go their own way and never hear from each other again.

But to entertain the thought of your Kindly Savior vs Object of Pity, it appears loaded with suppositions, and is quite bold in the assertion that any such relationship is doomed. It supposes that the Kindly Savior has no willpower, which seems odd considering he/she is the one doing the saving. It supposes that the Object of Pity is static and cannot change. What if the Object of Pity is just down on their luck and needs a boost to get back to a healthy state? What if the Object of Pity is starving and once fed adequately is strong again? It seems to suppose that the Object of Pity is quite disingenuous and manipulative, which suggests to me that they are not actually pitiful, but rather just acting a ruse. Why can't the Object of Pity be kind and with strong morals? I think there have been many such relationships that were successful throughout history, though I guess people tend to focus on the negatives more than the positives.

“It’s said war—war never changes. Men do, through the roads they walk. And this road—has reached its end.”

Diane Frenser

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posted 2 years ago

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Where do I even start? Lol there are many problems with dating today and I don’t know if it’s society’s influence or is it how people are raised. The nature vs nature dilemma. I can only speak from my experiences and from what I learned is that it’s a game. People are shallow, and are only looking for the next best thing. They don’t want to invest their time when they could be on the next date. It’s like how quick can you go through people. I invested a little over two years of talking to a person online then we finally meet up and decide we want to date then did a 180 on me after three months. People have ulterior motives and don’t reveal their true colors. It’s all talk and no action. People are no longer genuine. Why take time to get to know someone when you have 50 profiles to look at. It’s literally a meat market full of shallow people. I think the internet also has an influence on it because it makes dating easy access and gives a multitude of options. I sound jaded but only because I just broke up with someone today. But I know I’m a survivor, a kick ass woman who still has plenty of love to give. I know not everyone is the same but the dating pool doesn’t have a lot of quality applicants and I don’t know why.

Stacy Witscher

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I've got to say that I find this thread profoundly discouraging. I feel like it has a strong "kids these days" vibe, like dating hasn't always been fraught with disappointment and anxiety. Yes, it's hard to find an ideal partner, but it always has been. In the past, people settled, and lived unhappy lives. Many people including myself are no longer interested in doing so. I am open to a relationship but I do not need one. I heavily evaluate what is in it for me, in a good way. I have spent my life taking care of people, now I'm looking for a partner. If that doesn't happen, so be it. I am content with what I have, four beautiful adult children who love me. That's more than many people get.

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Diane Frenser

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Jordan Holland wrote:
There is a lot of talk about hook-up culture online. Here in rural Kentucky, I'm not seeing it anything like it seems to be happening in the cities. I don't see a whole lot of difference over the past 20 years. There have always been a fairly small number of people who got around, and I imagine probably about as many doing it discreetly that no one noticed. I do feel that society here is about 15-20 years behind what is going on in the bigger cities traditionally, but as the speed of societal change is accelerating

In my personal experience of this whole thing i think that my superficial appearance that they may be basing stereotypes on makes me seem more appealing for a one night stand or I also get hit up for threesomes with married type couples, but maybe not so desirable for an loving, monogamous LTR which is what I am seeking. I don't think I appear to others as I am.

I liked your railroad metaphor. I operate in metaphors. Lol I agree with your statement about rural Kentucky. I think it’s more common in the bigger cities like Lexington, Louisville or northern KY/Cinc, at least that has been my experience with online dating in Kentucky. It feels vey superficial or like a meat market. One becomes fed up with the overwhelming experience of sifting through profiles and don’t get me started on those. At this point I don’t think it matters where you try to find a compatible match because they can seem like the perfect match but they reveal their true colors later on. It’s very confusing and frustrating on how you should date because it feels like there are no rules and if you think there are they end up being wrong. What ever happened (or was there ever a time) when you got to know a decent human being. It doesn’t have to be this hard but yet it is.

As for your comment on attracting couples or one night stand I unfortunately know how you feel. Not that I fit the stereotype whatever that is but I’ve been approached and it’s just not my thing. I don’t understand why I’m not good enough to settle down with. At the end of the day I know I’m good enough I just haven’t found someone who appreciates me.

Myron Platte

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Dc Stewart wrote:At the risk of diverting the topic from dating to marriage, recall that in past generations "till death do us part" usually meant a few decades at best. At current life expectancy, even a delayed marriage can mean a 50-70 year commitment.

I once read that a prime "danger zone" for divorce is shortly after retirement, when the couple no longer gets to spend most of the day away from each other and has to really examine how common their common interests are.

I want to hazard that this is probably a misconception. Infant mortality often seriously skewed average life expectancy in the past. And while there were places with low life expectancy, there were also places with high life expectancy. And in many parts of the world, people, including peasants, in fact had quite a lot more leisure time to spend with friends and family than we do now, in our nine-to-five reality.

It's my opinion that since marriage is a contract, it should be binding, and you have to find a way to make it work, once you've made the commitment. Love is to act as if you feel love, even during times when you don't. At times it will be the dry fulfillment of duties, but those times will pass, leaving a stronger relationship behind. Sometimes I kind of feel like a traveler from the distant past, explaining the rationale behind inventing marriage. So let's consider the practical reasons for the establishment of this institution: men and women sometimes do this thing that has the potential to produce children. It usually involves an emotional connection. Well, let the children thus produced be the joint responsibility of those who produced them. Children need loving connection with both their parents, and the strengths and weaknesses of men and women tend to complement each other fairly well, making the wealth-building necessary for the support of children easier. So as the leader of a prehistoric tribe, I would issue the command that, for the health and safety of all involved, before engaging in the act that produces children, people must make a commitment to stick together and work together, so that the tribe will have stable sub-units, and the children are all accounted for. Since this is a matter of tribal stability and survival, I would require several witnesses to the event of commitment.

So I think that marriage is primarily utilitarian, not based on the whims of the heart.

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Michaell White

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I have a video to share. This is an experiment done on Tinder, where a fake profile of a 60-year-old woman was created. The idea was to show that even a 60-year-old woman, gets endlessly more matches than the average man does

For those who don't want to watch the video, but want to know what happened: The 60-year-old woman, got a huge success. Within 6 hours she had over 99 likes already(the average guy would have far less, probably 0). She even had 18-19-year-olds matching with her left and right. The more extreme revelation however, was that amongst the men she matched with, there were plenty who were very attractive as well. It's extreme because it shows that even that tiny % of men, is now starting to struggle to find matches as well, as the female focus seems to rise above them

This is good news for nature though

J. Graham

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It's extreme because it shows that even that tiny % of men, is now starting to struggle to find matches as well, as the female focus seems to rise above them

I'm really starting to wonder if there's a machine or app that people are using to automatically swipe on Tinder to swipe every profile. I really don't know what's going on there. I guess if that profile is listed in a large city, that number of matches would actually be a very small percentage of people. And Tinder is used mostly for hooking up, and I imagine a lot of people aren't too picky for a one time deal. I'm sure there are some fetishists in there. Maybe some could be seeing her as a place to live, even though she says she's penniless, maybe they assume she owns a house. I suspect many are possible scammers. Maybe scammers don't even read, they just pick an age range and swipe. Sick.

It does make me think of a statistic I've been seeing. Among men 30 and younger, 30% have not had sex in the past year, almost twice that of women at 18%. This is historically unprecedented. Many are also staying virgins far later than has been usual. I imagine many might be willing to consider a vastly older woman as a safe outlet, even as a mentor. I think things are definitely changing, though I don't know how or where they will end up.

“It’s said war—war never changes. Men do, through the roads they walk. And this road—has reached its end.”

Jan White

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Jordan Holland wrote:Imagine that that person has had nothing but bad experiences. Nothing but failure. Imagine that that person has decided to give the world one more chance to show that life is worth living before they choose to end it. And that chance is you. Please be kind.

Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here, but I had the same reaction as Robin and DC, and I don't think it was an unfair one. To me, what you, Jordan, are saying here is that this hypothetical person can't take another bad experience or failure, but I don't think you made it clear that saying no to someone politely doesn't count as failure. What came across was that the rejection itself, not the manner of the rejection, is what could possibly push this person over the edge. If you'd said "please be kind in the way you say no to them," I think your intended meaning would have been clear. As it was, what I got was " imagine if this person gets one more rejection they're going to end it, so please be kind and don't reject them."

I just thought wording it differently might help you understand why we all got the meaning we did from it.

Jan White

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So, it seems like the pain of rejection is a big deal for guys, more so than for women. I have pretty thick skin, so might not be a good person to talk about this. I was always thrilled when a guy was rude to me or ghosted me. It just meant I could cross him off the list, move on, and not waste any more time on someone who obviously wasn't a good match.

While I think everyone should try to be mindful of other people's feelings (which is why I always responded politely to every guy who contacted me online, whether I was interested or not) I don't think I'm obligated to tip toe around egos. I think a lot of women would feel the same. Every woman is going to have a different idea of where the line between being polite and propping up egos is. This line won't always match up with where a guy thinks that line should be. And, of course, some people will just be dicks. Are there things a guy can do to protect or prepare himself for those instances?

I'm going to go back to my suggestion that guys need guy friends. I dont mean superficial friendships. I mean friendships where they actually talk about real things and feel emotionally supported by each other. It's been suggested that the lack of these types of friendships amoung men, a fairly recent thing in society, is contributing to the increasing sense of loneliness men in particular feel. Loneliness can have a huge impact on everyday health, mental and physical. Loneliness may be partly responsible for things like the increasing rates of suicide and substance abuse among men.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about

Loneliness isn’t gendered, but men in particular tend to struggle to express deep feelings and form meaningful connections. Many of us find it easier to talk about football or politics than to admit to suffering from a low sex drive or feeling undervalued at work. We don't know who to tell these things, or how to say them...
Men aren’t good at talking to each other, or asking for help. This may be a cliché, but it's true. Personally, I would rather walk around lost for half an hour than risk looking incompetent by asking for directions. Every girlfriend I’ve had has found this baffling. I need Peak District levels of comfort and familiarity to open up to another man. The majority of my friends are female, because I generally find the company of women to be more relaxed and engaging. But to help me negotiate my darkest, most brutal emotions, real-life male company is essential. WhatsApp threads just don’t cut it, no matter how witty the banter.

That's from
https://www.menshealth.com/uk/mental-strength/a759609/the-truth-about-male-loneliness/

And here's another article from a quick search.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fear-intimacy/202111/the-devastating-toll-mens-loneliness

My husband is my best friend. Neither of us is much into talking about our feelings, but we do. Even so, from time to time I have to urge him to get something organized and go hang out with his friends he grew up with. He doesn't see them much anymore since we moved. These are friends he can share anything with. And he's always in a better headspace after a weekend out.

Okay, so I'm trying to tie all these things together. Having strong male friendships might be very important for guys on dating sites in dealing with rejection. Feeling like your female partner is the person to share everything with and not having a female partner might make being rejected even worse. Continued rejection could lead to a kind of desperation because you've got more and more emotional shit to deal with, and no one to talk about it with. I'm not a guy. I don't know, but I think there's something there.

So that's one. What are some other things guys can do to be more resilient in the face of rejection?

Bethany Dutch

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Imogen Skye wrote:

arianna higgins wrote:
As a female I always find it odd that men think this way. The majority of girls and women, particularly younger/20somethings I've known reply based merely on the guy's looks (how hot he is and how well dressed, the latter being less important to a baseline otherwise it's no) and social skills. Hot dudes can be creepy, sure; but if he doesn't seem creepy and is good looking or even above average then it's a yes. It certainly was for me and I was one turning heads in Manhattan nightclubs in the 90s and 00s, it's a different era but our genetic imperatives haven't changed..Nothing bad ever happened to me and I have mostly good memories- so my instincts/observations here must be correct.

Males commonly focus obsessively on this weird capitalism propaganda of money/status/power (which afford opportunities i.e. TOLERANCE, not DESIRE), ignoring their looks to a great fault- but a good portion of women including myself have avoided the fratboy/businessman our whole lives and want attractive tall men who hit the gym a lot (and can quote Thomas Hardy ). Maybe I'm the only bohemian rebel/punk left? I just know my hot, broke, punk, brilliant painter makes me happy in my 40s!!!

I mean it's not THAT hard, guys...my advice for young or single dudes is 1. hit the gym 2. take care of your skin here in Florida 3. hit the gym and 4. hit the gym.

Young men today may be confused but (MENTALLY HEALTHY) quality women are not looking for the Jordan Petersons and Gavin McInneses of the world, they are avoiding them ACTIVELY. Like targeting them a mile away and rooting them out. Women are looking for good stable partners who are going to be attractive and strong physically for the duration. Period. Anything else is manipulative, self-serving pathology or capitalist propaganda.

I find this all very disheartening. It's always been important to me that I am attracted to a man to be with him, but whether or not he is conventionally handsome or "hot" has not mattered to me even a tiny bit. I'm much more inclined to enjoy the looks of a brutish-looking sort of guy with working hands and working muscles, not someone who has "hit the gym." Probably at least partially an unpopular opinion, but I find gym fitness to be one of two things: an acceptable- though not optimal- way to make sure the mechanics don't go bad before they're due, and; vanity. There are many who prefer the "beauty and the beast" dynamic more than the "power couple" or "beautiful duo," else such an archetype wouldn't exist. It's not a pathological inclination or preference. How much money he makes, also not important at this point in my life since my children are mostly raised, though earlier it mattered a lot because I had small children who needed stable, adequate provision. In any case, character has always been the make-or-break for me. [I was tricked though, so all of this is only as good as your "picker," and mine didn't develop properly.]

And social skills.... Really? Like doesn't let stew dribble off his beard while eating in public and thanks the waiter, or social skills like has an eloquent manner when speaking, or some such thing? Doesn't a good person do well enough just by being a good person? It's one thing to me to be concerned with social skills in a child- which I am- but an adult man? Is there some job he'll be required to do for you? I'm just asking because I've never even considered this. An ability to do what needs doing and interact with the people he needs to get things done is adequate to me. I'm curious about how you select for social skills. And applied to what/whom?

As for Jordan Peterson (I don't know who the other man is), he has been married for many decades and presumably has offered his family a stable longterm commitment and ample provision, and as far as I can tell, there are lots of women who find intelligence, ambition, and moral conviction very attractive. I don't think he would have had a hard time finding a wife even if he hadn't married a woman he met as a girl at 4 yrs old. As for all the women avoiding such men actively, well, if that's true and not just a projection of your personal taste, perhaps there is hope for a woman like me to find someone decent and aware who "hits" character development instead of the gym.

I have to completely agree with you. Every woman is after different things, of course, but I am after what's inside, not their appearance or mannerisms.

The idea would be, of course, that there's a match for everyone, and if a man (or woman) is true to themselves, they will find someone who values that. We make a mistake when we assume that everyone values the same things we do. Not to mention I'd never say someone should focus on appearance as their only draw to find a partner - I mean yes it's important to some extent, but just properly taking care of yourself goes a long way there, and we all know that looks fade with time and bodies tend to get saggy.

Personally, I learned the hard way about the hot muscular broke type... lol! People still think I'm nuts for divorcing him... I'm eternally grateful that I did. Give me a farm strong, ambitious (as in, he's actively pursuing goals in life, not necessarily $), dedicated, hard working, unglamorous farm boy any day.

Just me and my kids, off griddin' it - follow along our shenanigans at our YouTube Uncle Dutch Farms.

Bethany Dutch

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To answer the original question - I think OLD is just set up completely wrong. Or something, I don't know. It's a terrible way to make connections. And for people looking for a genuine connection, it generally falls short, because it's entirely based on appearance most of the time. I know we think attraction is the most important part, but I just know that online people tend to be so much pickier about that stuff than they would be in real life.

Personally, I am one of those demisexual types - which means I am not attracted to anyone unless there's an emotional connection first. Online dating is SO appearance focused that for me it's frustrating to just sift through, look through at every man's profile regardless of what he looks like, to see if he seems like the kind of person I might enjoy being with. And 80% of the time their profile is blank or says something dumb like "If you want to know, just ask!" (as if I'm going to literally message 300 guys and say "Hey by chance are you a homesteader type?" Because since I'm a homesteader type seeing the same, it's rare to find someone I feel would be a good match with me, so it got to the point where it just feels like a waste of time. The only places where I might meet likeminded men en-masse are places like this - niche, not very many people, and international so the likelihood of meeting someone local is slim to none.

I know there are this company and that company that start a new online dating service, but I almost wonder if it would be better structured completely differently. Where the focus was just actual chats with lots of people, or something. Think about how it was done in the old days - people got together, just hanging out, which gave an opportunity for likeminded singles to meet. If there was a way to replicate that dynamic online, so local people were somehow getting together with the intent of having fun, chatting in a group, etc without the pressure of trying to find a specific person, things might grow a little more organically. But then, the problem lies in 1. getting people to participate and 2. figuring out how to ensure there aren't a bunch of dick pics sent.

Editing to add - I do think that the best way to help people meet each other would be grassroots local efforts. Last year there was a survivalist singles speed dating thing that I missed because I was gone (plus I'm moving out of state anyway so I don't want to meet anyone here) and I thought it was such a great idea. Once I move and am settled in my new state I may look into setting something up like that.

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Heather Staas

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Real actual woman here, sharing her "online dating" experience. Not fake youtube entertainment shock value created content.

I've never used Tinder, but I have dome some of the other online dating programs.

If I buy a monthly membership, The first day I might get 5-6 likes/ matches for a few days. Then it goes down to a couple over the next days, and for the rest of the MONTH... none. When my membership expires "suddenly" I get a bunch of matches and teases to "renew to see your matches..."

MANY of those are very young, very attractice, very seductive profiles.. fake. Or scams. Or paid services, if you know what I mean.

I've been single for 15 years popping onto dating apps here and there once in a while and seeing what comes of it. Usually NOTHING. Sometimes a few back and forth messages.

I"m pretty sure the experience of the AVERAGE woman is pretty comparable to the AVERAGE man. And yet we still get what we know about the experience of others from watching entertainment content made for shock instead of talking to each other as people. And selecting examples that add up to confirmation bias.

Women who say "um, it's not actually like that... " run the risk of gaslighting and shushing.

"The world is changed by your example, not your opinion." ~ Paulo Coelho

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John Wolfram

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Heather Staas wrote:I"m pretty sure the experience of the AVERAGE woman is pretty comparable to the AVERAGE man. And yet we still get what we know about the experience of others from watching entertainment content made for shock instead of talking to each other as people. And selecting examples that add up to confirmation bias.

A few years back the dating site OkCupid did some interesting analysis on their user population along with an analysis of people's behavior in terms of who people messaged. From about 18 to their late 20s females are going to have a huge percentage of the potential dating pool interested in them, so their experiences are going to be quite different than the average male of that same age range that has a much smaller percentage of the dating pool interested in them. After about 30, it seems likely that the male and female experiences will be more similar to each other.

https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2015/07/03/ok-cupid-data-on-sex-desirability-and-age/

Lorinda Crawford

Posts: 4

Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

posted 2 years ago

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Jan White wrote:

Jordan Holland wrote:Imagine that that person has had nothing but bad experiences. Nothing but failure. Imagine that that person has decided to give the world one more chance to show that life is worth living before they choose to end it. And that chance is you. Please be kind.

Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here, but I had the same reaction as Robin and DC, and I don't think it was an unfair one. To me, what you, Jordan, are saying here is that this hypothetical person can't take another bad experience or failure, but I don't think you made it clear that saying no to someone politely doesn't count as failure. What came across was that the rejection itself, not the manner of the rejection, is what could possibly push this person over the edge. If you'd said "please be kind in the way you say no to them," I think your intended meaning would have been clear. As it was, what I got was " imagine if this person gets one more rejection they're going to end it, so please be kind and don't reject them."

I just thought wording it differently might help you understand why we all got the meaning we did from it.

(Not sure if I'm replying properly, first time replying to anything on permies.com :-). Thank you, Jan. What you expressed is how I also read/interpreted the original. I hope your post allows the "dead horse" to Rest In Peace. :-) It's not easy to iron out misunderstandings by typing/screen ... so much easier in person! Great to see the quest for clarification by the ones who were participating in the back-and-forth (Jordan, Robin, DC ... and maybe some others?).

Pete Arthur

Posts: 45

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So, pre WW2 80% of americans lived on farms.
That means most folks were permies.
Women cooked, cleaned, gardened, raised critters to eat, etc..
Men ranched, or farmed, and fixed things.
Every man was compatible with every woman, 80% of the time.
3 dates and you got married, the dates were to see if you got along, you were already "compatible".
Yes, If you got her in "the family way" your life was at risk if you didn't "do the right thing".
When there are only 2 skill sets, man or woman, take one of each and we're done.

The 1960's

Birth control, effective birth control, gave women the choice of having sex and not "having to get hitched".

So, today there are no standards of what the prospective guy or gal has as a skill set.
Your chances of finding anyone with even complementary skills is 5%.

No, not good odds.

Need a pep badge system for dating.

10 categories, 5 points each, and not self rated, ratings will be adjudged by 1st class matchmakers.

Trustworthy
loyal
helpful
friendly
courteous
kind
obedient
cheerful
thrifty
brave
clean
reverent

No more, "what's your sign". Let me see your date rating card.

Staff note :

Apple for "Need a pep badge system for dating."

Abraham Palma

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Pete Arthur wrote:
Need a pep badge system for dating.

10 categories, 5 points each, and not self rated, ratings will be adjudged by 1st class matchmakers.

Trustworthy
loyal
helpful
friendly
courteous
kind
obedient
cheerful
thrifty
brave
clean
reverent

No more, "what's your sign". Let me see your date rating card.

I think the real value of an old matchmaker is that she sees real attributes of both potential lovers, not how they see themselves. You can describe yourself as friendly, but how do your friends or your acknowledges describe you? I think of myself as very formal, with a core of black humor, while others might describe me as strict and rude. It would be an inmensely useful card if you were to know yourself better and learn how others are seeing you, not just for dating.

Also, depending on what you are looking for in dating, you should show different personality traits and skill sets. For example, if I am looking just for casual sex, I really wouldn't mind if she cannot do laundry, but if I need a person to live with, that's a skill that complements my cooking ability. If I am looking for someone to enjoy time together but with no intention of living together, then I absolutely need that she can talk Filosophy and she has to know that I cannot dance.
Would you make a different card for different goals or would you rather have a complete profile?

Next comes how to prove your personality profile is accurate. A real matchmaker knows you. If you do a personality test, you can be lying to yourself without knowing. If you ask an interviewer who does not know you, it probably won't succeed. With the PEP system, you have to show proof that you have a skill by sending a photo to a judge. I can send you a photo of myself cooking, but how do you know it tastes good? I need a witness. Similarly, I could provide witnesses to account for my personality traits, and who would rate them in a scale. The more witnesses that vote, people who have actually met you, the more trustful the profile. It should be something like this:
- Describe reaction towards meeting new people: Shy, timid, careful, audacious, bold.
- Describe expenditure behaviour: Stingy, thrifty, mindful, generous, bon vivant.
- Describe mood tendences (prone to be in this state): Depresive, Wrathful, Careless, Enthusiastic, Obsesive,
- Describe aspirations: Clueless, Conformist, Realist, Ambitious, Big dreams.
- Describe politeness: Sickly sweet, Maskerading, Polite, Forthright, Rude.
- ...
Personality is tricky, since you may behave differently towards different people, and also your personality might evolve in the course of meeting with new people.

A good match, then, has complementary skills (I do cook, you do laundry), common interests (we love hiking together), and balancing personalities (two wrathful people cannot last). Skills can be proven by a PEP system, interests are merely declarative, while personalities require some witnesses.

https://permies.com/t/175744/permaculture-sites/permaculture-projects/Project-Gardens-Orchard-Dignity

Steven A Smith

Posts: 24

Location: Otowi NM

posted 2 years ago

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arianna higgins wrote:

Heather Sharpe wrote:They suggested that as a woman, you shouldn't initiate contact, rather waiting for the man to do so.

Weird because I always received the *opposite* advice from coaches, online, in person all sorts of people always would tell me that. The thinking was to change the usual traditional way things were done in order to shake things into happening. Maybe people could read I was pretty passive and so I needed the extra cheerleading. I always staunchly refused to go talk to anyone and proudly can look back and say "I never initiated and never pursued anyone". Stupid ego....
...

I believe this firmly now as an older woman looking back at everything Ive seen. Hope this makes sense.

I blame everything on late stage capitalism and urbanization. Too many people packed in too tightly everywhere. Takes the romance out of everything.

My father, (born 1928) always asserted "I chased her until she caught me" regarding my mother and I took it (somewhat) to heart... I recognized that showing interest (sometimes fairly understated/oblique but consistent) in a woman and waiting for her to decide that she was interested in me as well and/or that the time was right for her, and let her make the "first move" was not a bad strategy.

This is mainly because of the power-dynamic in our culture. If women had more overt (and balanced) power in the workplace and popular culture, I'd probably withdraw or soften that position. Both of my daughter's held the position of "choosing" their relationships rather than having them "chosen for" them by who was interested in them. It wasn't perfect, but it was refreshing.

I have a niece who was very attractive (conventionally and by her skills as a champion swimmer, top student, vocalist, etc.) who had to leave the "relationship scene" for nearly a decade before she could return to it in a healthy way. She was so used to being "pursued" and then feeling like she was reduced to the *image* the boys projected onto her to the point that she ended up being somewhat neurotic with them until it fell apart. She seems to be in a *much* healthier mode in her late 30s and is in an LTR with some promise.

C. Letellier

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Location: Greybull WY north central WY zone 4 bordering on 3

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Heather Staas wrote:Real actual woman here, sharing her "online dating" experience. Not fake youtube entertainment shock value created content.

...
I"m pretty sure the experience of the AVERAGE woman is pretty comparable to the AVERAGE man.
...

This is one thing I bet you would be surprised by. Lets ask a simple question. Guys if you wrote to 100 women on a dating site what would be your initial response rate? Ladies same. If you wrote to 100 guys on a dating site what would be your initial response rate?

As a guy I am typically totally ignored by 97 of those ladies. 2 ladies write back with a not interested note.(they always get a thank you note for simply having the courtesy to respond at all) and finally 1 lady will respond being willing to correspond. I am betting women have a much higher initial response rate. My first online date took 17 years of effort and roughly 3000 to 3500 women written to. Betting very few women see anything anywhere near that bad.

Country oriented nerd with primary interests in alternate energy in particular solar. Dabble in gardening, trees, cob, soil building and a host of others.

Michaell White

Posts: 23

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C. Letellier wrote:
This is one thing I bet you would be surprised by. Lets ask a simple question. Guys if you wrote to 100 women on a dating site what would be your initial response rate? Ladies same. If you wrote to 100 guys on a dating site what would be your initial response rate?

I guess OkCupid is where you can send messages

To western women, it would be around the same as you
To non-western women I would get around 30-50 responses I think

John Wolfram

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Pete Arthur wrote:10 categories, 5 points each, and not self rated, ratings will be adjudged by 1st class matchmakers.

Trustworthy
loyal
helpful
friendly
courteous
kind
obedient
cheerful
thrifty
brave
clean
reverent

Someone clearly was a Boy Scout.

John F Dean

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I suspect that nothing is wrong with dating today. To be clear, I have been out of the dating scene since the mid 70’s. I am aware that as we age our criteria, as individuals, for relationships changes. Social norms change as well. The problems that I have seen, regarding dating, are from individuals imposing problems on themselves. The most striking conversation I can presently remember on this topic was with a woman in her 50’s who volunteered to me she was involved in her 5th divorce. She opened the door, so I felt free to enter. I asked her what she saw as the problem. She volunteered that she had fallen out of love with each partner. Then she errored again and asked me what I thought. I told her the last time I felt like a giddy 14 year old was when I was 14.

….give me coffee to do the things I can and bourbon to accept the things I can’t.

Stephen B. Thomas

master pollinator

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Location: Wheaton Labs, Montana, USA

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Late to the party on this one. But I might have something useful to add.

Bethany Dutch wrote:Editing to add - I do think that the best way to help people meet each other would be grassroots local efforts. Last year there was a survivalist singles speed dating thing that I missed because I was gone [...] and I thought it was such a great idea.

Any kind of interest group has the potential for establishing that spark between potential partners. Even if you don't meet someone special, the event is likely worth your time since you'll be doing something you probably wanted to be doing anyway. I used to meet all sorts of fantastic women (and people in general) when I went to bicycling events, since we all knew we were drawn to be there by our interest in bicycling. I don't think I ever went expecting to cross paths with a potential partner (perhaps... much to my own detriment) but I still had a good time anyway. Even if the focus isn't speed-dating or match-making, there's still a foundation of common interest that can set the stage for a lively relationship.

For the record, personally I think there's nothing wrong with the dating scene. I'm of the opinion that people could benefit from being alone for a while - between relationships and otherwise - and they could greatly benefit from being more picky about potential partners, in general. ...Please note that this all could simply be projection on my part.

"We carry a new world here, in our hearts..."

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Bethany Dutch

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C. Letellier wrote:

Heather Staas wrote:Real actual woman here, sharing her "online dating" experience. Not fake youtube entertainment shock value created content.

...
I"m pretty sure the experience of the AVERAGE woman is pretty comparable to the AVERAGE man.
...

This is one thing I bet you would be surprised by. Lets ask a simple question. Guys if you wrote to 100 women on a dating site what would be your initial response rate? Ladies same. If you wrote to 100 guys on a dating site what would be your initial response rate?

As a guy I am typically totally ignored by 97 of those ladies. 2 ladies write back with a not interested note.(they always get a thank you note for simply having the courtesy to respond at all) and finally 1 lady will respond being willing to correspond. I am betting women have a much higher initial response rate. My first online date took 17 years of effort and roughly 3000 to 3500 women written to. Betting very few women see anything anywhere near that bad.

I suspect this is true, but one thing that also skews it is that most of the men who have ever responded to me are looking for a hookup, rgardless of me being very clear I'm looking for something real.

So yeah, as a woman I might get more responses, but most of them aren't looking to do anything other than quick sex, so in my eyes they don't count. I think a lot of those statistics are skewed by the high number of men out there just wanting to sleep with any woman. I wonder if there are any real statistics about this when you remove the people who are just looking for sex - I'd bet the response levels would be a lot more similar.

Just me and my kids, off griddin' it - follow along our shenanigans at our YouTube Uncle Dutch Farms.

Bethany Dutch

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posted 2 years ago

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Stephen B. Thomas wrote:Late to the party on this one. But I might have something useful to add.

Bethany Dutch wrote:Editing to add - I do think that the best way to help people meet each other would be grassroots local efforts. Last year there was a survivalist singles speed dating thing that I missed because I was gone [...] and I thought it was such a great idea.

Any kind of interest group has the potential for establishing that spark between potential partners. Even if you don't meet someone special, the event is likely worth your time since you'll be doing something you probably wanted to be doing anyway. I used to meet all sorts of fantastic women (and people in general) when I went to bicycling events, since we all knew we were drawn to be there by our interest in bicycling. I don't think I ever went expecting to cross paths with a potential partner (perhaps... much to my own detriment) but I still had a good time anyway. Even if the focus isn't speed-dating or match-making, there's still a foundation of common interest that can set the stage for a lively relationship.

For the record, personally I think there's nothing wrong with the dating scene. I'm of the opinion that people could benefit from being alone for a while - between relationships and otherwise - and they could greatly benefit from being more picky about potential partners, in general. ...Please note that this all could simply be projection on my part.

Well, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Having been single for just about 7 years though, in my case I think I'm ready to find a partner

But - I also am not one to stop life hoping to find someone. In fact, most of the reason why I'm still single is because I've held off dating so many times because I just didn't feel like I had space for someone - I was too busy living my life.

I do know though that when I move, I'll be closing a chapter in my life where I had less time, and so am hoping to be able to find someone when I relocate. We will see.

Just me and my kids, off griddin' it - follow along our shenanigans at our YouTube Uncle Dutch Farms.

J. Graham

gardener

Posts: 3132

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Stacy Witscher wrote:I've got to say that I find this thread profoundly discouraging.

I think this is how most of us feel about dating in general. That's part of the whole point. Perhaps your disappointment is at least partly due to me including "today" in the title. I say "today" because I wanted it to be about our lives right now, not in depth conversations and tangents about the past. I hope we can learn things that help us today. "Dating has always been hard." Maybe. There has not always even been dating. Even today, there are a few Greek families in my area that practice arranged marriages. Some people lived in miserable relationships, yes. But many people also lived miserable lives. The concept of actually marrying for happiness in real life is a relatively new one, I gather, at least in the country. Maybe it was different in the big cities. In the country, people accepted that life was hard, and they had to find a way to survive. Yet they still managed to find moments of happiness, and made the best of it.

Someone suggested to me that the title was problematic because it is not "solution-based." That is the point. I feel like this world we live in today is chocked full of "solution-based." So full, that maybe we are losing sight of the actual problems we are trying to solve, and the "solutions" often are anything but. That is why the problems we are trying to solve often appear to be getting worse, rather than better. We can sit around in a circle and sing Kum-Ba-Ya and feel all warm and fuzzy, but what does it accomplish? I feel like rather than solving problems, we are most often just kicking them down the road, and the increased discontent we see in society is the result of these problems piling up due to solutions that simply mask the problems rather than eliminate them.

I think it's a bit too optimistic to expect to change dating in society as a whole (at least right away). I believe we can create a place here where dating is different. Better. Just like permaculture is about making the world better by doing things differently, I think we need to do the same thing with dating. I believe we can create a community where dating is more like permaculture. But we cannot do it by trying to fit into the old non-permaculture mindset. This may not always be pleasant, but the best way rarely is.

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“It’s said war—war never changes. Men do, through the roads they walk. And this road—has reached its end.”

Jim Morrison

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Location: Springfield, MO

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The biggest thing I have noticed over the years is that since the advent of social media like Facebook and the hideous TIK TOK craze; the longer social media has been around the more narcistic people have become. Many people have impossible demands of a potential partner; I understand people want their ideal partner and should not 'just settle' but they need to be realistic about who or what they are going to attract and be compatible with. For instance, on a dating site a friend showed me recently; a gal that was 4ft tall/220 lbs./no teeth/and on the gov't dole/ and has a criminal record- was looking for a guy who was at least 6 ft. tall, in shape, educated, owned his own home, in an upper income earning bracket/and drives a nice car/and better learn to put up with her 'I'm a bitch and proud of it' attitude. Just how realistic is this? Are people like this actually serious or do they just post stuff like this for the fun of it?
I do not participate in things like Facebook or Tik Tok but have seen the things people post on there, and it looks like people have gone mad. People are completely out of touch with reality. It also seems like the longer the internet has existed, the more out of touch with reality that people are. Not enough people know how to 'be human' anymore.
I have not dated in probably twelve years or so. Most of the gals I have had relationships with have way too much baggage for me to deal with and it felt like they wanted me for a ATM machine even though they made more than me.
I have spent most of my life living pretty simple out in the country so I was one of the last people to get introduced to the internet and just recently acquired a cell phone and it looks to me like technology has changed how people deal with others now. Things are way off kilter in human relations now. Before I got internet and way before I got a cell phone, I noticed how people got to be more arrogant and narcistic, and thought maybe something was wrong with me. But I have learned it isn't me that has the problem, it is all those who have been changed from seeing to much b.s on the net and taking part in social media and trying to conform to that b.s. world.
Maybe if technology went down and people had to sweat and bleed for their food, maybe they would learn to 'be human' again.

Michael Adamson

Posts: 16

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Jim Morrison wrote:
Maybe if technology went down and people had to sweat and bleed for their food, maybe they would learn to 'be human' again.

This is what it all boils down to. I'll be up on my mountain doing my thing. I might let a cute one make it up the driveway but she'll have to stay in the barn until she proves her worth, and loyalty.

Dating is collapsing because civilization is collapsing because domestication is dysevolution.

Nicole Blank

Posts: 79

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Had to give you a thumbs down Jim, but I don't believe in hiding behind it without stepping forward and explaining why.

Your post reads, you think the world would be a better place, without social media, and that people need to start being better humans. yet you have admitted to seeing a post on a social media site, of a women you don't personally know, and have prejudged her on what you have read there. And in the next breath you say "but I have learned it isn't me that has the problem" the thing about problems Jim is unless you have a mirror, there so much easier to see in everybody else.

My question to you would be, what difference does it make to you what that women posts, as her wants or desires, or what impact would that make in your life? other than in your endeavor to be a better human, you seem to think she's unworthy of those things.

If she (looked) more perfect would she be more deserving?

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