*Welcome Helen Atthowe, author of The Ecological Farm

Hi Helen - we're so pleased to have you here this week at permies!   I have a quick question to start with - what's your favorite beneficial insect that you love to see on your farm?  Here, the dragonflies are stunning and great to see in the backyard.
Thanks for joining us this week!

Yay! I'm so excited to see your new book. Thank you so much Helen for coming to hang out with us!
I very much enjoyed your garden master course this year and have been trying to apply some of the principles in my new annual food growing area (posted about here) Current issue is vole damage - they've been eating through the stems of my peas and oats....which isn't conducive to being able to save seed from those plants. Still, we learn a little every day and what doesn't kill us makes us stronger, or something like that!

I also like dragonflies - particularly in midge season!

Great to be part of this thread! It is hard to choose a favorite beneficial insect since they are all important in their own season... But the diversity of spiders on my farm are most helpful for some of the most difficult pests.

Nancy, voles can be a huge challenge in a veggie garden. My cats (and dogs) keep voles in my gardens and orchard suppressed. Raised beds help alot. I have never had much luck with suppressant plants or materials if vole populations are high. Vole populations cycle and drop after reaching high peaks. You may be in a peak year.

Helen, it is nice to see you on the forum and I am looking forward to all the discussions this week.

I like the "grow your own fertilizer" suggestion on the cover of your Book.

Thanks Anne! My favorite part of the book and my most exciting research are the "grow-your-own-fertilizer" chapters. I still can't believe how well my Oregon orchard is growing and yielding fruit with no off-farm fertilizer for 7 years. The fruit trees planted in May on my new Montana farm are also doing great with no off-farm fertilizer. The peaches, nectarines, and pluots have 2 feet of new growth already and the apples and pears have  1 to 2 ft of new growth.

Welcome, Helen! I have to say that I really enjoyed your most recent webinar Creating a Backyard Fruit Orchard! My question for you is: Is planting bare-root fruit trees and berry bushes better than ones in pots? As in, will they have a higher likelihood of surviving and thriving?

Hi, Helen! Welcome to permies! I'm excited about your book, and can't wait to read it - I can use all the gardening help I can get, on my homestead.

Hi Helen!  Welcome!  

I am a huge fan of your Master Gardener Program and hope to one day take your Garden Master Course in person at Wheaton Labs.  At our house, we have started to move towards a more ecological approach with our garden and your new book really helped shed some light on things.  Next season we will be growing our own fertilizer, isnspired by the chapter in your new book!!

Thanks for all your kind comments about my book and ecological gardening!

Potted fruit trees are more expensive because you are buying established roots.  This is usually better than bare-root, unless the trees have been in pots too long and become root-bound. I have mostly spring-planted bare-root trees over the past 30 years (due to the cost), but I have potted up a few when they arrived too late in the spring and temperatures were getting hot. My potted trees do well, but so do early-spring planted bare-root trees when I baby them.

How about planting bare-root in the fall? Is that a bad idea?

Spring is better, especially in the north. But fall is OK for bare-root. Mulch with alfalfa hay after planting to protect roots and the graft union.

Welcome!

I'm very excited to hear that you've written a book, I've been interested to hear more about gardening from you since hearing about your garden master course.

What crops do you focus on the most in the book? Is there anything about growing grain?

Hello Helen
You arrived at Permies not a moment too soon for me, at least😄
My son and I have just completed putting the fence around our 2 1/2 acre farm. It's already terraced (entry way is at the highest point) and has no trees except for a giant 200 year old Banyan tree (trunk diameter about 15 feet!). The roots spread almost 100 meters around.
We have a tiny stream right accross the lowest part of our land.
We want to plant a whole lot of different fruit trees... mangoes, litchis, chiramoya, carambola, breadfruit, neem...
My son wants to dig a small channel all  around the property and then connect these to the water bodies (yet to be dug). The first water body will be a water catcher at the highest point of our land.
The plan is then to plant our privacy saplings along the channel edge.
If this is a terrible idea, please let me know so that I can save him the effort.
Thank you for reading this
Warm wishes
Esther

Welcome - again and again - Helen! I loved your Garden Master course! It so expanded my thinking on all aspects gardening-farming! I’m keeping my ground covered!
Looking forward to delving into this book!

This looks like such an amazing resource!

From 0-5 years, then 5-10 years, and 10+ years, what percentage (ish) of support/soil building/green mulch plants should a garden consist of?

In other words, should half of a newly established permaculture garden be plants that feed other plants? Less, more? I’m still trying to get my newly established food forest up and running and really focusing on plants that feed the soil and other plants, such as comfrey, rather than plants that feed humans. But I also am struggling with patience and want to grow plants that I can eat!

Esther, I think I would focus my planting of fruit trees near the stream at the bottom of your land. I may not be understanding properly, but it sounds like the stream is your most consistent water source.  And, of course, in your climate you get alot of vegetation growth after the wet season, so lots of chop & drop around your trees to mulch and maintain soil moisture. In fact, I would chop and drop where the trees will be planted ASAP making "mulch mounds" to prepare the soil for the trees to be planted. All the species you mentioned do well with mulched, high organic matter soils, including those yummy mangoes (I'm jealous because I can't grow mangoes now, but got to grow them in Ecuador - yum!). Good luck!

Thanks Gaurī,  keeping the soil covered is the most important thing we gardeners can do for our gardens and for the world!

Scott, Great question and I appreciate your thinking! It is a question I have been thinking alot about, researching, and am still learning answers to. So, in the early stages (0-5 years), I think you want a high percentage and diversity of soil building plants, like diverse mixes of annual and perennial legumes, annual grasses and forbes (like comfrey and a diversity of sequentially blooming flowering plants). Some of this 50% can be cover crops that you then plant annual crops into. My veggie production areas consist of 50% grow-my-own-fertilizer plants (that also multi-task as habitat for soil microbes and beneficial insects). My mature orchard is 30-40% non-crop ground cover. As your garden system develops, you might be able to decrease non-crop ground cover and plant diversity to less than 50% of the total space, as long as leaves, tree prunings, and crop residue all go back to the soil. Again, I am still learning and living into the answers to this question. On my new, tiny, 5 acre farm in Montana I have less space than I have ever had and I inherited a beautiful 4 acre alfalfa field (surrounded by over a 100 acres of alfalfa and grass pasture). I have been chopping & dropping and mulching with alfalfa. I have  amazing growth on the new  fruit trees, berries, asparagus, and annual veggies all planted in May 2023. BUT, for the first time in 25 years, I have insect problems in my veggies. I have wonderful soil-building and ground cover with my 75% alfalfa and 25% grass ground cover, but there is not enough plant diversity providing season-long, sequential bloom to support a diversity of beneficial insects to provide enough biological control in my veggie garden.  So, the plot thickens....

Kate,

The new book focuses on fruit trees and annual crops (mostly vegetable crops, but with some reference to small grains, like the flint corn I grow alot of. The first part of the book explains my own and my late husband's successes and mistakes developing ecological, minimal-input, methods for growing perennials and annuals. All of the first part relates to annual grain crops too. The second part of the book gives detailed information on specific vegetable and fruit crops, common fruit and vegetable crop pests, and the most ecological ways to suppress those specific pests. It is the book I wrote to accompany the Garden Master Course because there is no way to cover all the information gardeners need in a five day course! I don't have time to cover specific fruit tree and vegetable crop ecological farming details in the Garden Master Course, so the book covers those vital details (maybe too many details for some people...). But, every time I teach the Garden Master Course, I add more and more practical details!

Welcome Helen! We were briefly introduced at a wheaton PDC and your lecture was inspiring.  Im looking forward to watching this thread grow and reading your book!

Thank you for being here to share your knowledge and experience! I am very excited to see “no-till” in the title of your book and am curious to learn your methods I watched one of your presentations available on YT that detailed a minimal till method of annual farming- the presentation was amazing, in part because of your scientific approach, but also because of your conversational style. Being able to hear your story and thought process in combination with the numbers behind your results was incredibly helpful (I’m thinking of your soil testing- nitrogen addiction recovery😂- and crop yields). I just saw that you posted a new YouTube video in June, so I will be watching that! Does this book describe your transition from minimal tillage to no-till? I’d love to hear/read your experience with that. Thanks again

Thanks Abbie. Yes, my book describes in detail my transition from conventional tillage to minimal tillage/no-till for veggies and to no-till for the orchard. I talk about my experiential and research journey to figure out how to cycle nutrients with surface applied residues compared to tille-in organic residues.

Helen,
Welcome and thank you for your book. I'm just getting started and in addition to your answer to a question I can't imagine a better resource to think of every decision I make as part of the ecosystem. I have a ton of questions and will single it down for the small farm topic. Thank you again!

Hello, I am a new permie, Australian, young dad, nurserymen, soil enthusiast and near a year into a steward of 100 acres!!
I have lots of questions, but one most at the forefront of my attention is soil 'sodisity'.

In our region the most common soil profile is a kurosol,
A thin (couple cm to a foot) sandy, grey to white powder topsoil, then a sharp horizon to a clayey, subsoil that when moistened, dissolves leaving behind a kinda sandy clay rock. (Excuse my ignorant description please..)

My question though, are there any techniques or practices that can assist in managing this soil and it's fragile structure?
We are currently using biochar wherever possible, composting and mulching to hold the soil structure where new beds are being made.

My dream is to have my own nursery, to sell direct, and offer seasonal produce/ medicinals.

Hi Helen,
What plants do you most recommend for cold desert climates?

Liam,  compost and mulch are good options for your fragile sandy-clay soil. I would also consider a deep-rooted cover crop/green manure, like a mix of salt-tolerant camelina and sweet clover. Sweet clovers are deep-rooted and are the most salt-tolerant legumes. Soil microbial abundance can temporarily decline if you use camelina alone, but camelina is very salt-tolerant.  Cover crops are vital because they add growing roots to the soil, which adds an important ecological dimension that mulches and composts don't add.

Cat, My Eastern Oregon farm was in the cold high desert and most vegetable and tree fruit crops did well for me as long as I had a good irrigation source. In my book, The Ecological Farm, I list the "special ecological Preferences " for each of the most common vegetable and fruit crops. That might help you pick crops to match your climate, soil type, and water/irrigation.

Thanks Mary, I think I may have missed your question. Can you ask again?

Hi Helen! Looking forward to reading your book. We've been trying to establish a garden on our small farm in North Texas, battling all matters of grasses. I'm curious how you would convert the 1-acre of grass surrounding our house into a functional garden!

Greetings Helen,
    Thank you for spending time with us.
Besides Masanobu Fukuoka and Paul Wheaton, who were your biggest influences in your journey and what was the most important thing they taught you?
Nematodes are a big problem in Florida gardens, some research has shown mycelium likes to eat them. Do you add or use mycelium in your gardens?
Best Regards,
Jon

Hi Helen,

I'm working through your Master Gardening course online. It is encouraging to know more about no-till gardening and how to make it work. I have a question about planting raspberries. I have bought plants at the big box stores, and have had marginal success getting them to grow. I suspect part of my problem is planting prior to the last frost. Do you have any suggestions that will help improve my raspberry plants and their production?

Thanks,
Jeff Foster

Hi Jon, Very funny! Paul was a student of mine 20 years ago, but never an influence! But I have had a lot of important influences. My greatest influences were:  Wes Jackson from the Land Institute, where I did a year long internship 40 years ago and learned about plant ecology and perennial polycultures. Fukuoka, who taught me to keep the  soil covered always. My brilliant late-husband, Carl Rosato, who inspired and helped me to experiment with no-till methods. Eric Brennan, USDA Research Horticulturist, who has done some great organic systems and cover crop research. Michael Phillips, author of the Holistic Orchard. Several university soil scientists whose soil microbial ecology research helped me see the soil in a whole new way. Good question! Our influences shape the way we think and help us to see the world differently.

Josh, that is a bit question and depends on the climate, soil types and fertility, and water availability. If you have good texture and fertile soil, a diverse grass area (not a monoculture of one or two grass species), not too many competitive weedy species in your grass, and a source of irrigation, I would do a combination of heavy mulches and cover crops in different sections of  your grass area to build up the soil without disturbing the microbial community already there. I would test your soil and choose a cover crop mix based on your soil nutrient and texture needs. Then I would mow and lightly till-in your cover crops while also leaving un-tilled, undisturbed heavily mulched areas near the tilled areas. Eventually, you can also choose to leave some of your cover crop mix in areas as living mulches and or ground cover for perennials. It is worth doing the homework to know your soil and site very well before you choose cover crops, living mulches, and soil amendments. Good luck building your soil organic matter and microbial community.

Hi Jeff, Raspberry plants do well planted in the spring. Choose varieties that do well in your climate (usually from a local gardener or nursery). They prefer well-drained, fertile soils with a pH of 6.0 to 6.8 and grow poorly in heavy clay or poorly drained soils. Raspberries can be really competitive once established, so I plant them away from other perennials, berries, and my annual veggies.

Jon, I don't add or use mycelium in my gardens, except to add organic residues as mulch that are filled with fungal mycelium as they break down. So far, I have been able to create habitat for fungi and they come naturally. Bacteria and parasitic nematodes also suppress pest nematodes and like organic residues additions and moist soil. Good luck!

Hi Helen,
 The book looks like it will be an amazing resource and it's great that you are here taking direct questions.
  I'm about to move to my (hopefully) last home and garden this fall. It's just under an acre in 6b, Southern Ontario. There is a small creek on the southern edge and the water table is pretty high. Soil is sandy loam and it's been mostly lawn for 60ish years.
 I am hoping to slowly convert over half to mostly old Carolinian native plants, with a focus on edibles. Oak, pawpaw, persimmon,mulberry, hazelnut, elderberry, ostrich fern etc. ( there are several large maples already there) I've also got a good start on a range of native flowers to both look pretty and hopefully support the development of local pollination.
 I'd love any plants you could recommend as native chop and drops or cover plants for this type of set-up. This is, unfortunately, still suburban enough that I do need it to look "maintained" so I'm willing to consider doing something like alfalfa, in beds, if it is worthwhile. ( or maybe over the septic field? )
  Thanks!

helen atthowe wrote: I would test your soil and choose a cover crop mix based on your soil nutrient and texture needs. ...It is worth doing the homework to know your soil and site very well before you choose cover crops, living mulches, and soil amendments. Good luck building your soil organic matter and microbial community.

Helen, do you have any book recommendations for how to choose cover crops based on "soil nutrient and texture needs".  From the Table of Contents, it didn't seem like you covered that in this latest book. Or am I mistaken?

Thanks,

helen atthowe wrote:Hi Jon, Very funny! Paul was a student of mine 20 years ago, but never an influence! But I have had a lot of important influences. My greatest influences were:  Wes Jackson from the Land Institute, where I did a year long internship 40 years ago and learned about plant ecology and perennial polycultures. Fukuoka, who taught me to keep the  soil covered always. My brilliant late-husband, Carl Rosato, who inspired and helped me to experiment with no-till methods. Eric Brennan, USDA Research Horticulturist, who has done some great organic systems and cover crop research. Michael Phillips, author of the Holistic Orchard. Several university soil scientists whose soil microbial ecology research helped me see the soil in a whole new way. Good question! Our influences shape the way we think and help us to see the world differently.

helen atthowe wrote:Jon, I don't add or use mycelium in my gardens, except to add organic residues as mulch that are filled with fungal mycelium as they break down. So far, I have been able to create habitat for fungi and they come naturally. Bacteria and parasitic nematodes also suppress pest nematodes and like organic residues additions and moist soil. Good luck!

Thank you very much.  Appreciate all the leads. Your husband was an accomplished person. Lost my wife in 2021 so I know the feeling of losing someone close. Glad you are able to keep busy and have a laugh also.
Jon

Oscar, My book covers in detail how to choose cover crops based on soil nutrient and texture needs in Chapter 4.  I talk about cover crops for different soil conditions on pages 68-70 and then on pages 70-75 I list common annual, biennial, and perennial cover crops and give their soil and environmental requirements. In chapter 7, I talk about specific cover crops to suppress different diseases and in Chapter 8, I present cover crops to suppress different weeds. Another great source of cover crop info is the USDA SARE on-line publication: Managing Cover Crops Profitably. You can download a PDF from the USDA Sustainable Agriculture Network.