I Can't Eat My Library

I'm not sure if this belongs here. Please let me know if it's not okay and I'll go sit in the corner. BUT... If I don't let this out I think it might make me cry or something.

I don't operate at a level that has monies beyond what is required to fufill the basic needs for me and my kiddo, so 'extras' are something of a rarity. I'm okay with that, and he's happy... I made a conscious choice a long time ago that doing what is the most meaningful has reward that far outreaches the return of spending my precious earth time in the pursuit of money doing something that would likely counter what is meaningful. If that alone is all that my offspring takes away from my life, I think I'm pretty okay with that.

I'll reiterate that it was, and is, a choice that I made willingly, and would choose again without hesitation. And I am prepared to face the potential consequences of that choice... The pursuit of what is meaningful is that much of a big deal to me.

I am also not a super materialistic person. Sentimental, sure. But not overly materialistic. I do my best to care for what I have so it will last me, and the things I do have I worked very hard for and enjoy, but ultimately if they were all stripped from me, I'd like to think that after some initial shock, I'd be just as okay as I am with them. (It's possible that I may feel a little bit different about my tools... For they are what I use to 'provide'. But that's another matter entirely.)

So here's the problem, or challenge: I finally found a copy of Bill Mollison's Introduction to Permaculture that is not only well under a hundred dollars, but is a beautiful, ready-to-be-loved copy. (It's only $40 plus the shipping fee!) But things are simply too tight, as they are most surely to always be, for me to be able to buy it. And I find it sad.

I have scoured the thrift stores and local buy and sell sites for this book and within a price range or within my abilities to barter for for literally years and I finally found it, so it feels defeating that I can't make it happen. Almost like I'm letting myself down?

I'm going to sacrifice what and where I can and see if by next week when more of that green papered madness comes into my pocket that it is by some miraculous magic still available at this wonderful price, but I'm not holding my breath for that.

So, I'm wondering... Am I being too materialistic? I also wonder what folks have paid for their copy and if my hope to obtain a copy for less than $100-150 is unrealistic. Maybe someone would weigh in for me let me know their thoughts? Again, I'm sorry if this is in the wrong place or not allowed altogether. I just don't know that I've got anybody in my immediate reach to discuss this with that would have any level of understanding that I think folks around here have.

Love and Respect,
Faeryn

A book lover.

This is branching off from your focus...but I do see a Designer's Guide By Bill Mollison
as an audio book that looks like you can listen to for free on Bookey.

Hey Faeryn. I can see you live in challenging times.

I love books -- physical books. I daresay my small, select library is pretty damn cool, with many hard to find volumes. I am damn proud of it.

But I would never, ever sacrifice the essentials of life for a book in the library. The knowledge in books is no longer confined there: it is available in many forms for those willing to seek it. And in forums too, such as this community. My 2c.

Faeryn, I am intrigued by people like you who make the choice you describe.
I too am not

I am also not a super materialistic person

but I like to be self sufficient with regard to looking after myself and help the community I live in.
I like to purchase goods that help me one way or another rather than rely on luck in finding access to them.
Can I ask what attracts you to the system you describe? regards John

Although it may sound a bit sacrilegious, I would advise you to forget about that book. There is so much free information available to keep you educated, entertained, and interested that I just don't see the need to buy a book that may put you into hardship. The public library will have many permaculture books you can borrow for free, and depending on which library system you are near they may have podcasts, audiobooks, e-books etc. There is this site which is already almost endless on its own, and yet there is a whole internet ecosystem outside of it to browse as well. Keep the book in the mental wish list and some day if you come across it when you are in a better position you might want to buy it for yourself, or you may find you no longer care to. I don't think myself or anyone else is going to tell you anything you don't already know on this one - but we can at least assure you that you aren't alone in going through hard times. My first step toward permaculture was due to hardship and a desire for true sustainability of sustenance, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one that found it in that way.

This forum is probably the most constructive place to talk about these things, as the answers you get will likely be from experience rather than theory.

Some folks really value books and other not so much.  It sounds like you are in the not so much group.  that is okay.

As you stated in your title, you cant eat your library so why have one?

And this does sound like a personal challenge.

I am in the book lovers corner.  I see value in books to learn more about things I don't know about,

I am also a big fan of Louis Lamour as I have almost all his books.

You mention your child so if your child wants books why not offer them?  And yes, thrift stores are good places to find books.

My wife and I label our  first 15 years together as our poor years.  Finding two Pennies to rub together was always a challenge.  During that time were were forced to make many similar decisions… and have many similar frustrations.  As for defining an acceptable level of materialism, you are the only one who can decide that.

I'll second the opinion of several others here...don't bother with it.  There is so much free information and education out there.  If you have internet access and can be any judge of the legit from the fake, you're not missing out on anything.  In retrospect there are several issues in that book, and in Mollison's other books, that are actually outdated or superseded by the growing wisdom and experience of permaculture practitioners now. Environmental and climate science have also progressed significantly since they were published as well.

Faeryn,
As much as I love books that is one I wouldn't buy because as others have said much of the information is available for free and updated.
Here at permies you have the added bonus of discussions with real folks doing things in real time....mistakes and all and likely someone with your same type of climate.

Raising kids changes priorities and I think $40 might go a long way towards daily living expenses.

I will say though, before kids, I often spent my food budget on books and after our kids left home Steve and I spent $200 of our winter food budget on 200 plus estate sale record albums.....

There are also some podcasts that are gradually working their way through the Big Black Book.

I'll post links...

session 1 part 1
session 1 part 2
session 1 part 3
session 2 part 1
session 2 part 2
session 3 part 1
session 3 part 2
session 3 part 3
session 4 part 1
session 4 part 2

We have a whole forum here for the Permaculture Design Manual!!
https://permies.com/f/142/pdm

And I feel for you with the book prices, I have gone long times  where I couldn't buy books. And yeah, I saved all the money I could for months when I got my copy of it, and wish I had seen one for 40.00, I ended up paying 100.

A thought to consider: Read a bunch of the forum above, then go to your local library and ask if they do Inter-Library Loan (ILL) This tiny town I'm in has a minuscule library, but they borrow books you want from other places, free or very cheap (like 2.00) if they don't ask if others in your area do. See if you can borrow a copy from somewhere to read the stuff that you have realized you definitely need. Or see if you decide you don't need a copy at all.

I'm a reader, I  have read it cover to cover several times, few people make it through it once, from what I hear. At this point I only reread the relevant to me chapters when I want to. I don't need to know about tropical permaculture, I have no banana trees. I don't need to know about desert anymore, I moved out of the desert and studied up on it a lot when I was there. Once I saw the patterns, I no longer need to read that chapter, they are obvious to me.  

So I suggest read what you can here, learn to work our advanced search https://permies.com/forums/search/filters/-1   and look up the things you need more, figure out what you actually need to know, then see if you can borrow the book from a library. After that, you might not need to buy a copy at all, I have noticed a low % of people have one, and an even lower amount have read it.

If you need to know things that you can't find in search, try starting a new thread with the question in the subject line, and a LOT of us type Wall o' Text style and will happily dump more than you can eat at you :D

HUGS. I have had to pass up books, and it hurts. But there ARE ways around this book.

40$ for a book?  No thank you.  I scour flea-markets to find the books I want, mostly for a dollar.  If you can't find cheap books you are not shopping in the right places.  I'm sure there are other texts out there that cover what Mollison covers.

I do think there could be a bit of snobbery going on in permaculture that you just aren't serious if you don't own the "Big Black Book." However, it looks from your location, that you're in the Pacific North Wet?  I am also, and I borrowed the book, and found it a struggle because all the examples were too foreign to my climate.

Yes, I understand it's a "design" manual - not a recipe book - but I struggled to relate without a few examples I could go out and observe myself. Like Pearl said, "no bananas here!"

I had heard of "The Earth Care Manual" by Patrick Whitefield. He's in Britain, and I recognized some of the similarities of our climates. I was able to borrow a copy of it while visiting my mom and read it cover to cover in barely a week. He covers much of the original material, but relates it to a wet, cool climate, and it was written well.

So yes, I would suggest you follow many of the comments made here: borrow, barter, Interlibrary Loan, do without etc and add my own of "look at alternatives."

That said, I did eventually splurge on Jacke's Edible Forest Gardens Vol 2 as a birthday present to myself. It too, is an awesome book, although it's focused on a more eastern USA climate that doesn't always relate to mine either. I recall vaguely that Vol 1 also covers a lot of the design principles, but it's been too long since I read that Volume to be sure I'm remembering accurately.  The charts in the back are excellent and really help me plan better.

Faeryn Savage wrote: I just don't know that I've got anybody in my immediate reach to discuss this with that would have any level of understanding that I think folks around here have.

And THAT is why I hang out here. Home is where they understand you.
HUGS!!  Welcome home!!  

Fellow book lover here. Oh I sympathise! I think you've had a fair amount of support for not needing it. I haven't a copy, although I did read a friend's one many year's ago. I support what Jay said that much of it might not be applicable for you, but I understand wanting to have the book for what it represents.
I don't know what your situation is obviously, but if you want this book there might be ways. What are you prepared to give up for it?
You say you have a library - can you find 20 books that you no longer want? $2 each on ebay and you're there. Anything else you can sell?
It's coming up for Christmas, if gifts are in your future, could you make them in your present instead?
I guess this post hasn't helped as much as I hoped it would, good luck!

I have not checked for all of his work, but a number of his books are available online.  For starters, check the MIT library. There are at least a half dozen of Bills books there.  The library of congress could be checked.   Many universities have open access to at least some of their online libraries.  

I've never read it. I highly doubt I ever will. I don't need it, because I can find almost anything I need to know, right here. If I can't find what I'm looking for, I can start a thread, to ask a question in the appropriate forum, and almost without fail, the answers I need just magically appear, in short order.

The Internet Archive (https://archive.org/), especially in conjunction with permies.com, are a formidable resource, period. Throw in the fact that both are FREE, and it suddenly enables my inner bibliophile access to almost anything it desires. No shipping. No leaving my home, if I don't want to. No carrying *a* book with you, to the garden, barn, out on a hike, etc - download it to your phone, and take the whole library with you.

Check into bookbub.com, and goodreads.com for great deals on ebooks, too.

I am going to assume that you meant the Designer's Manual and not the Introduction to... I wouldn't pay $40 for Intro but that is a great price for the PDM. Can you live without it? I am sure you can. Is it an enlightening keystone text to treasure? Why yes it is.  I'd say trust your gut on this one. Since it was published overseas originally it doesn't really show up used and getting it for less than 3 figures is uncommon BUT anything is possible. I have spent most of my extra money on books over the years and I've dropped some real monies on some things, but when I was in my twenties and discovering permaculture that was not the case. I fiended for this book for years and then one day there it was in front of me at a thrift store. $2.02! (still got the sticker on it) I was dumbstruck. I'd probably squirrel away and pay the $100 nowadays if I had to but back then I was so grateful for it magically showing up like that. I've grown veggies and foraged for a living for a long time now, and a lot (but by no means all) of my learning has been from reading. My library along with my tools has definitely put food in my mouth.
I hope one way or another it finds its way into your hands.

Faeryn,

Can you confirm, are you trying to get this one:

https://a.co/d/2fDBpqq

or this one...

https://a.co/d/fJCSmjJ

J. Juniper wrote:A book lover.

This is branching off from your focus...but I do see a Designer's Guide By Bill Mollison
as an audio book that looks like you can listen to for free on Bookey.

YOU are a genius. I love listening to books! My brain for some reason has never connected the non-fiction to audiobook connection, but of course that's a real thing! I could easily listen over and over and take all kinds of notes! I could just HUG YOU SO BIG. With consent, of course.

THANK YOU!

George Yacus wrote:Faeryn,

Can you confirm, are you trying to get this one:

https://a.co/d/2fDBpqq

or this one...

https://a.co/d/fJCSmjJ

Sorry, I do that often, mix and match my thoughts and words. The second one! I am basing it off of my memory of it's contents, it's been many years since I had access to it. My apologies for the mix up!

Carla Burke wrote:I've never read it. I highly doubt I ever will. I don't need it, because I can find almost anything I need to know, right here. If I can't find what I'm looking for, I can start a thread, to ask a question in the appropriate forum, and almost without fail, the answers I need just magically appear, in short order.

The Internet Archive (https://archive.org/), especially in conjunction with permies.com, are a formidable resource, period. Throw in the fact that both are FREE, and it suddenly enables my inner bibliophile access to almost anything it desires. No shipping. No leaving my home, if I don't want to. No carrying *a* book with you, to the garden, barn, out on a hike, etc - download it to your phone, and take the whole library with you.

Check into bookbub.com, and goodreads.com for great deals on ebooks, too.

I love that whole idea because the internet allows us the ability to need less 'things'. I dig it.

What I am preparing for won't have the 'instant everything, just add internet' functionality perk. I can see it's great usefulness, and perhaps I'll change my mind after being without it for awhile, who knows? But I very much love your frame of reference. Thank you for sharing!

Chris Clinton wrote:I am going to assume that you meant the Designer's Manual and not the Introduction to... I wouldn't pay $40 for Intro but that is a great price for the PDM. Can you live without it? I am sure you can. Is it an enlightening keystone text to treasure? Why yes it is.  I'd say trust your gut on this one. Since it was published overseas originally it doesn't really show up used and getting it for less than 3 figures is uncommon BUT anything is possible. I have spent most of my extra money on books over the years and I've dropped some real monies on some things, but when I was in my twenties and discovering permaculture that was not the case. I fiended for this book for years and then one day there it was in front of me at a thrift store. $2.02! (still got the sticker on it) I was dumbstruck. I'd probably squirrel away and pay the $100 nowadays if I had to but back then I was so grateful for it magically showing up like that. I've grown veggies and foraged for a living for a long time now, and a lot (but by no means all) of my learning has been from reading. My library along with my tools has definitely put food in my mouth.
I hope one way or another it finds its way into your hands.

I dig this response! Thank you so much! You've hit a few really great nails right on the head. I have a wonderful adventure ahead of me and in preparation of it, I have to be selective and thoughtful about what I choose to take with me and what I sacrifice to be able to. My list isn't enormous, but that one has made the list. I'll keep at it. I love your thrift store story. I frequent my area's thrift stores on a constant quest for Everybody's Grandma's Donated Linens of Awful Vintage Prints because I turn them into clothes and bags and hairbands and dolls, teddy bears and other toys, all kinds of hideous (lovely) things. It's one of the ways that I do what I find meaningful - I've seen the contribution from the fashion and clothing industries in terms of waste and wanted to stop being a cog in that machine if I could. That made me want to help make it accessible for other people to do the same thing if they wanted to... But with all of the really terrible floral prints and color combinations that the seventies offered. (Or in a unique and looks-handmade-but-not-second-hand kind of way? Not that there's anything at all wrong with second hand. I happen to think of second hand attire in the tune of Sharp Dressed Man by ZZ Top, you know?) It's so magnificent. To me, at least. Anyway, I overshared all of that to say that you make me hopeful that one day, my dedication to refusing to buy 'new' will point me in the direction I am supposed to go, no matter what the title of the book I'm to read ends up being.

Someone gave me a copy decades ago, saying it seemed much like work I had already been pursuing.  I've loved it, carried it around the world, occasionally delving into parts, kind of like the Tao Te Ching.  

I've encountered rather more practical info involving real life trade-offs in various other formats: experienced folks, demonstration projects, comparative assessments, trial & error, disparate fields & oblique situations.  

But I wouldn't let go of it & I revere Mollison for having brought it all together in one conceptual framework & guidebook, even more so for getting the second generation, of Permaculture doers, going whose specific works I was most exposed to.  

Maybe wait for one to come along as a gift & reward for having gotten there along your own path.  

You can eat a seed library - I myself did & would start there!  

Jay Angler wrote:I do think there could be a bit of snobbery going on in permaculture that you just aren't serious if you don't own the "Big Black Book." However, it looks from your location, that you're in the Pacific North Wet?

I started out on pdf copies of the Brad Lancaster books, and Sepp Holzer is my BestFriendForever

I did find a used copy of the Mollison introduction to Permaculture and book 2, and honestly I see no need to buy the black book. A decade or so ago, I read some of it in digital format, but I agree: these days there are plenty of resources, and really, there is more information on this site than I could absorb in a lifetime.

I suppose if one needs to get certified, it's necessary, but,for me, permaculture is supposed to allow me to tend to nature, while observing the flow of nature and working towards balance, using methods wise people are already using.

When people ask me what permaculture is, I tell them people gathered Jerusalem artichokes, and corn, along rivers, and planted some in other places that seemed to be similar, and then they would know where to look for them next time. That basically permaculturalists help nature be more abundant, instead of destroying it.

Patrik Schumann wrote:Someone gave me a copy decades ago, saying it seemed much like work I had already been pursuing.  I've loved it, carried it around the world, occasionally delving into parts, kind of like the Tao Te Ching.  

I've encountered rather more practical info involving real life trade-offs in various other formats: experienced folks, demonstration projects, comparative assessments, trial & error, disparate fields & oblique situations.  

But I wouldn't let go of it & I revere Mollison for having brought it all together in one conceptual framework & guidebook, even more so for getting the second generation, of Permaculture doers, going whose specific works I was most exposed to.  

Maybe wait for one to come along as a gift & reward for having gotten there along your own path.  

You can eat a seed library - I myself did & would start there!  

I love that attitude and reference frame. And you're 100% correct. You CAN eat a seed library. How awesome. Stephen King still tastes weird. But I'll keep adding more ingredients until something comes of it, I suppose. : D

Thank you for your well-thought response. You're totally right. One will come my way, should Ka will it. I did, in the interim, find TWO really great books that while not directly -- specifically -- permaculture based, they both have what I'm finding to be amazing information, perspective and help to strengthen my understanding of things as a whole.

I'm self-teaching my way through this, and so I'm starting with ecology. And lucky for me, i found a really great book on the subject, by accident, in great shape, that the author communicates and teaches in a way I understand easily. And for 75% off of $0.75... I'd say that's a bargain I couldn't beat. The book is called Nature's Network by Keith Reid. I wonder if any folks might be familiar. The other that I've just begun is called The Vanishing Face of Gaia by James Lovelock.

Anyway, thank you again for your insight. I appreciate you.

My path brought me to Nature's Network by Keith Reid and The Vanishing Face of Gaia by James Lovelock. Is anyone by chance, familiar?

Sorry I'm late to the party, and forgive me if someone already mentioned it... I scrolled through the posts and didn't see it mentioned, though someone did bring up free audiobooks.

This seems to be forgotten knowledge, (and no, you don't seem a bit materialistic to me) but for the price of a library card, which is usually free, you can go to your local library and use this awesome service called Inter-Library Loan (ILL). Your library locates a copy of the book you want to read, and requests that the library holding the copy send it to them so they can loan it to you just like one of their own books. ILL is free for the user. Libraries send books back and forth via USPS Media Mail so costs are minimal. I hope this helps you out if you really want to hold a copy in your hands for a few weeks.

j

Faeryn Savage wrote:

So here's the problem, or challenge: I finally found a copy of Bill Mollison's Introduction to Permaculture that is not only well under a hundred dollars, but is a beautiful, ready-to-be-loved copy. (It's only $40 plus the shipping fee!) But things are simply too tight, as they are most surely to always be, for me to be able to buy it. And I find it sad.

So, I'm wondering... Am I being too materialistic? I also wonder what folks have paid for their copy and if my hope to obtain a copy for less than $100-150 is unrealistic. Maybe someone would weigh in for me let me know their thoughts? Again, I'm sorry if this is in the wrong place or not allowed altogether. I just don't know that I've got anybody in my immediate reach to discuss this with that would have any level of understanding that I think folks around here have.

Love and Respect,
Faeryn

Hm. I am the wrong person to ask about whether a book is worth $x!

I used to say, in the 20+ years I was a used bookseller, that books are ground up trees and rocks and only worth what someone will pay for them. When we stopped grinding up gold and gems for inks, the value of the object itself became $0.

Here is a link to Google Books, I searched for "Bill Mollison" as the author and Permaculture as the title. I do NOT know if any of these are free or they are all $100 or ? But it's another way to access the info.

https://www.google.com/search?udm=36&q=bill+mollison

Personal story: I started as a book collector as a kid, collecting Oz books. I love the old ones, the thick paper, the size, etc. But I'm an old fart and it's an entire shelf. I had them stashed for decades to keep people, pets, etc. away from them. Del Rey published large-format paperback scans of the original books, and that's close enough for me, I'm selling the old originals. It only took me 20 years or so to get to where I can do that! The plan is to keep the 1 or 2 which are special to me (and in terrible shape) of the old ones and get the original series in the Del Rey paperback reprints.

So, decide if you have to have that book, that publication? Will the data, elsewhere work? If not, bide your time. Eventually, someone, somewhere will decide that all the online sellers are crazy and they only want $10... This happens a lot less than it used to, but it does happen.

You can eat books, though. I don’t recommend it because of the the ink, which would not be good eating. The recipe is—boil books until well cooked, drain well, sprinkle inside of books with oyster mushroom sawdust spawn, put in a warm, moist place… such is the way of the bibliovore.

There is a charming little book, The Ink Drinker, by Eric Sanvoisin, which I loved enough I bought 10 copies and sent them to my favorite customers. It's about a boy whose dad is a bookdealer, who has an ink drinker come in the store... and...

I wouldn't buy it these days, but I was charmed by it and it's pertinent to this conversation.

0-385-32591-4

That also reminds me—I forgot in which of the mushroom books I read it, but there is some experimentation with spore-based inks (shaggy mane for instance) that will decompose the book if it is discarded.

Unfortunately the kinds of books that people would make with these sorts of ink are probably not the books I would want to eat or discard!

Maieshe Ljin wrote:You can eat books, though. I don’t recommend it because of the the ink, which would not be good eating. The recipe is—boil books until well cooked, drain well, sprinkle inside of books with oyster mushroom sawdust spawn, put in a warm, moist place… such is the way of the bibliovore.

LOL, cut off the spine and covers first, glue and plastic need not apply.

But thumb through it first. Add a sticky note if there is something good, something that resonates. Maybe you could drop it at the local "take it or leave it" table. Books are almost a subversive underground now. Ideas and knowledge can be vanished with the click of a mouse. But books remain.