Roses and permaculture?

Oh boy, I got my first house! I'm so excited! And my tiny .11 acre of land is basically as raw as can get - mostly dead grass with 2 old apple trees - however there are TONS of rosebushes around the perimeter.

What I'm wondering is: is there a role for roses in a food forest/permaculture system?

Yes, they are pretty, but I'm inclined to feel that the roses are taking up valuable food-growing space. Am I wrong to want to rip them out? What are your thoughts?

Hmm, I'll try to get the ball rolling, and hopefully someone with more experience/knowledge will chime in.

We have native roses on our property, and I asked a few months ago about planting a cherry tree next to on in this thread: Can I Plant a Cherry Tree Next to a Rose Bush?. The consensus there seemed to be that fruit trees didn't seem to be negatively affected by the roses, and maybe to keep a few feet separation from them because picking fruit from the fruit tree might be painful with the thorns nearby.

As for uses, the fruit (a.k.a. rose hips) are very nutritious and not too bad tasting. They are one of the highest sources of vitamin c. They can also be used in teas, as can the petals.

If your property were mine, I would likely leave at least one rose bush, for the above-mentioned reasons. As for the other bushes, I wouldn't worry about them and focus on other projects first. They won't hurt anything, and you can always remove them later if you find you've run out of places to plant on your small-ish property and would rather have something more productive there.

As for polyculture with them, I have native trailing blackberries that decided to grow in mine, and neither plant seems adversely affected. I'm dealing with thorns from the blackberries anyway so the thorns from the rose bush doesn't bother me while I'm picking--I'm already protected from thorns. It's definitely not the easiest way to pick blackberries, as I really have to search for them, but at least I'm getting two food sources from the area, and I didn't have to pay for either plant (they're both native volunteers). They also don't require much maintenance (I thin the rosehips to get bigger ones, and trim the blackberry canes to stay in the bush, which effectively "tips" them, so they make more berries. That's all I do. I don't even water the things!)

Hopefully someone else has more uses for roses. Maybe they attract beneficial insects?

If that's all that's growing there, I would trust the roses to know quite a bit about what works. Are they on a fence or free standing?

I'd want to know what kind of roses they are. Some roses produce hips and useful flowers, others not so much. You could watch them for a year and see if the flowers are fragrant and what the hips are like, what animals and insects interact with them.

As Nicole mentions, you can make tea, they're packed with nutrients, and rose is a wonderful medicinal plant http://animacenter.org/rosa.html

I think you are fortunate to have them!

Sure, roses have a place. In addition to looking nice, they can be used to trap massive quantities of Japanese Beetles who would otherwise be devouring your plum and cherry trees.

Congrats on the new house. I have been keeping roses for a number of years now. I found out how easily they are propagated and put some roses into the forest garden. They are cousins with alot of my plants so i put them in a guild between a pear and peach tree, nearby was chives, strawberries, as well as mock strawberry, lavender, and some others too. The roses acted like a flower clock, producing blooms that start as red and turn pink, and eventually brown and dried, a wonderful thing to keep seeing in the garden as the season moves along.

I just moved into a house that has 4 or 5 super old rose bushes and those are another case. The previous owner managed them mainly for harvesting flowers so now the growth is pretty funky. I have pruned some that were hanging in the way, and i had to move one of the larger bushes to make way for the chicken coop.(probably killed it)
With different kinds of roses the behavior can vary a lot it seems, and maybe that would depend on pruning style as well.

I would leave the roses until you are ready to plant some more important plants in their place. They may not be in my grade A plant list, but they are nice to have in some capacity.

Tara Swenson wrote:
What I'm wondering is: is there a role for roses in a food forest/permaculture system?
?

Grapes and roses are supposedly companion plants.

Roses and Grapes

Geoff Lawton mentioned some related folklore "The roses are the doctors of the grapes".

Rose is a medicinal plant. You can use the rose hips. Rose petals and or rose hips make a good wine. and you could cut roses and sell them at your local florist.

Tara, an important question is whether the roses that came with the house will be happy without spraying with fungicides. Many rose are quite demanding. Do you have any photos of how they look now? Do you perhaps know what cultivars they are?

Apart from that, rosehips, as has already been metioned; and a support role for bees which collect pollen on them (bee traffic can also vary a lot depending on the cultivars).

In Europe, Kordes is a breeder concentrating on no-spray roses. I believe Kordes roses are also available in the US - yes: http://newflora.com/ I don't know of any US-based no-spray oriented programmes but I would expect they exist. Our Kordes girls get some black spot and yellowing but nothing they could not outgrow on their own.

There is also the option of moving away from cultivated roses and toward "wild" (they actually also exist in cultivated forms) species such as rosa canina, multiflora, rugosa... Rugosas usually grow great big rosehips, rebloom constantly and you'll always have new ones to share with neighbors

Wow, thanks for all the thoughtful responses. I think I'll go ahead and keep them for now, and as suggested wait until I need the room to remove them. Rose is one of my favorite flowers for medicinal purposes - I'm just not so sure I can keep them alive if they are high maintenance...

I'm completely unfamiliar with roses, and am clueless as to what these kind are, but I've attached a couple of pictures - maybe someone else knows?

I'm happy to hear they are companions to grapes - ideal since they are located primarily along the fences where grapes can grow. Also glad to know they are companions to plum and cherry trees. Although we don't have any of those trees now, I would like to add some in the near future.

Thanks again for your replies! Very helpful

It's hard to go by looks alone, but... It's somewhat late in the year and if your roses were really sensitive to disease they would in my opinion look much worse by now, so that's a good first impression.

If you decide to take the time you can visit helpmefind.com/roses which is a large database of them and compare photos to maybe get an ID after all.

I'm actually buying roses to put in my food forest. I think we should not discount beauty in the pursuit of maximizing food production.

they are really quite nice =) very pretty.

totally random guessing - i think you may have grandiflora, or floribunda roses there (rosa grandiflora, or rosa floribunda would be the species name, if i am correct).

i say this because the roses flower in clusters, which is a key to their type. there are some other species that flowers in clusters, but arent upright like those, and with the nice big flowers. again, this is just a guess, but maybe a place to start if you are curious.they look more like modern hybrid types, rather than old fashioned types, but idk if thats right. actually that dark pink one on the end looks different, is it a solitary flower atop a long stem? thats more characteristic of a tea rose.

if i were you, i think i would dig a few of them up and put them in large pots, make room for some edibles along the fence. then you can haul them around in pots to different locations, and kinda tuck them away, or leave them on that sidewalk.

contrary to what you may think, roses are very easy to grow, they can take a little bit of stress and hardly show it. although i am much more into hard core wild types, rugosas, and other wild species types, those are the easiest and most disease resistant. but they bounce back from being cut, and you should be able to transplant them without incident, they will come back once they get settled into a pot.

in a few weeks to a month, after cutting them back really intensely, is when i would do this, over the fall. you may also be able to trade them, or rather some root/cane cuttings, with someone for other plants, would be helpful though if you knew the type. well anywho thats just what i would do, some thoughts.

Those look like hybrid tea roses. I inherited two bushes with my house and I don't do anything to care for them other than pruning in the winter. They don't produce usable hips, but if the flowers smell good you can dry the petals and use them in all kinds of ways. The fresh petals are edible in salads, and the dried ones can be used to make syrup or added to jams and preserves. I'd only remove ones that look unhealthy.

That top one looks like a hybridized Peace Rose. I love the smell of those ones.
I agree with Leila that it looks like you have a quite a few floribunda there. Those look like some seriously healthy plants and will likely give you some healthy rose hips this fall.

I imagine that you won't have goats on .11 acres, but as far as permaculture goes, I was thinking that roses around a goat yard-outside the fence!- would be great. They would make the area more beautiful and the goats would prune their side. Any trimmings could be tossed in to the goats. I've heard goats really love roses.

There is the companion planting book "Roses Love Garlic". I think the garlic helps keep pests away.

Rose hip tea is pretty tasty. I make it really strong and use it as the liquid to puree strawberries and other fruit for popsicles.

If you get any romantic ideas about throwing rose petals around, they stain, so watch where you put them.

I am surprised no one mentioned this, and although the roses in the picture appear to be fancy pretty roses, one of the most awesome uses of Roses in Permaculture is as a living fence. Roses will readily root wherever the canes hit the ground so they can be trained into a narrow dense wall of prickly critter deterrent. Also, any fruit trees of the rose family, namely apple and pear, should do well where roses are growing, and lastly, as previously mentioned, they're pretty and nectary (which always belongs in PC)

Congrats Tara, enjoy the new project.

We have ramanas roses on our boundary and pick the large hips for mixing through fruit jellies to up the Vit C content for the winter.

If you're taking some out, consider that roses with thick heads of petals don't allow insects passage to the nectar or pollen. Thus roses with a single ring of petals and plenty open space in the middle, like ramanas roses and native dog roses (in Ireland and the UK) are best for beneficial pollinators and also for rose hips (which won't grow if you the pollinators can't get into the flower).

Beauty has it's own place too.

As others have mentioned, those are Tea Roses, usually grown for show, they will flower every 45 days and keep the bees around and happy.
The best bushes for Rose Hips are Climbing Roses try to located some that are single, instead of double, they do nicely to cover a fence line with fragrant, very pretty color.
It looks like you have a nice selection of varieties, Abe Linclon is probably the darker red one, the top picture is of a Peace Rose.

Most Hybrid Tea Roses don't have fragrance, if you have ones that do, be sure to keep them.
Grow your garlic and leaks in there with the Roses and you will have fewer problems.
Keep them pruned for openness so you will have fewer problems with Black Spot, the bane of Rose Growers.

Those will give you wonderful cut flowers for your home and as I mentioned above, they produce every 45 days of the growing season.
Remove any blooms that are starting to fade since they will suck life out of the bush.

I love all the information provided here in this thread, but I did not see anyone talking about using roses as a natural protective hedge. According to Sepp Holzer, he uses a variety of roses to inclose his poultry operations. The varieties he mentioned in his book do not match the roses found on your property but birds like thorny hedges to protect them from natural predators as well as the hips and flowers produced. Sepp will construct mobile nesting sites and place them in the thorny hedge so that there is room for a hen and her clutch. Considering your situation this information may be little or no use to you but I wanted to share for the other people wanting to incorporate roses in their permaculture system. Hope this helps.

As a generic question, do roses belong in permaculture? They are one of the few plants that get along well with walnut trees.

In your specific set-up, they look healthy and happy where they are. I use my roses for making rosewater and rose wine. The bees love them too. I use the leaves in eco printing. See Eco Colour by India Flint.

Linda Listing
Westetn PA
Zone 6

Hi Tara, my name is Ruth. I have a few roses around my place. I need to move two to a more advantagous place in my garden. I place my roses around different spots to attract pollinators. It has been a successful strategy for me so far. Maybe you can try it and see if it works for you.

Tara Swenson wrote:Oh boy, I got my first house! I'm so excited! And my tiny .11 acre of land is basically as raw as can get - mostly dead grass with 2 old apple trees - however there are TONS of rosebushes around the perimeter.

What I'm wondering is: is there a role for roses in a food forest/permaculture system?

Yes, they are pretty, but I'm inclined to feel that the roses are taking up valuable food-growing space. Am I wrong to want to rip them out? What are your thoughts?

There's probably a role for all plants in permaculture. Figuring out the role is the fun part. Given that you've not got a lot of soil to work with and that they aren't Rosa rugosa (the ones that produce big rips), I'd say that most should go. Perhaps you keep some that are especially attractive to your eye. Having said that, I wouldn't take them out right away. Observe your garden for a year and start by making tiny changes. As the garden evolves towards what you want, you take out the roses as you need to.

I am going to agree with Mike. I have been doing permaculture for a long time and roses for longer than that. I grow rugosa roses. No need for any spray. Smell really good and produce wonderful hips each year. Taste great and easy to harvest. Haven for small birds escaping predators. Super easy care !
John S
PDX OR

Mike Haych wrote:

There's probably a role for all plants in permaculture. Figuring out the role is the fun part. Given that you've not got a lot of soil to work with and that they aren't Rosa rugosa (the ones that produce big rips), I'd say that most should go. Perhaps you keep some that are especially attractive to your eye. Having said that, I wouldn't take them out right away. Observe your garden for a year and start by making tiny changes. As the garden evolves towards what you want, you take out the roses as you need to.

This is what I was going to say, (except the "most should go" part).

Of course there is a role for roses, and many benefits have been listed, but your priorities will be the guide as to what stays and what goes, and no need to decide right NOW. Plenty of time to watch and wait. Plenty of other spaces to get started on, without taking out any of the few plants that are supporting the underground community. Start by giving the roses no care at all, and see which ones are fine without any pampering. Roses have a reputation for needing a lot of care, but they are VERY TOUGH plants, I don't do much for mine, just make sure the desert does not dessicate them, and keep encouraging their roots and the soil they feed to go ever deeper, so that one day I will not need to water them at all.

With all this talk of utility, don't undervalue pure enjoyment on your part. YOU are a part of your systems, and if you love something, there will be days when that soft spot in your heart is valuable beyond measure, the beauty, the fragrance, the cycle of the seasons reflected in their changes. The rose is an archetypal flower. By it one can gauge the passage of a woman's life span, unfolding from bud to blossom to full blown rose, to fruit, to seed and so on ad infinitum. Lush and fragrant, the rose is deemed the epitome of perfection, as is a ripe peach. Let's not any of us pretend there won't be days when a soul needs the resting place a rose can provide ... or any other element we include and care for, just because we favor it.

It's OK to keep something just because we are partial to it.

Thekla

Thekla McDaniels wrote:

This is what I was going to say, (except the "most should go" part).

Of course there is a role for roses, and many benefits have been listed, but your priorities will be the guide as to what stays and what goes, and no need to decide right NOW. Plenty of time to watch and wait. Plenty of other spaces to get started on, without taking out any of the few plants that are supporting the underground community. Start by giving the roses no care at all, and see which ones are fine without any pampering. Roses have a reputation for needing a lot of care, but they are VERY TOUGH plants, I don't do much for mine, just make sure the desert does not dessicate them, and keep encouraging their roots and the soil they feed to go ever deeper, so that one day I will not need to water them at all.

With all this talk of utility, don't undervalue pure enjoyment on your part. YOU are a part of your systems, and if you love something, there will be days when that soft spot in your heart is valuable beyond measure, the beauty, the fragrance, the cycle of the seasons reflected in their changes. The rose is an archetypal flower. By it one can gauge the passage of a woman's life span, unfolding from bud to blossom to full blown rose, to fruit, to seed and so on ad infinitum. Lush and fragrant, the rose is deemed the epitome of perfection, as is a ripe peach. Let's not any of us pretend there won't be days when a soul needs the resting place a rose can provide ... or any other element we include and care for, just because we favor it.

It's OK to keep something just because we are partial to it.

Thekla

I did say to keep some for the eye. But with .11 acres, TONS of roses and wanting to grow food, most would have to go or perhaps be replaced by Rosa rugosa which gives lots of Vitamin C, a sweet smell, a bee magnet and tougher that nails.

it looks to me from the pictures that there is still lots of space for other plants around the roses, even if you don't take them out.

I have a rose bush in my 'yard' in alaska in a pretty good south facing spot and have the problem that from march to may it starts budding out and then suffers dieback from late frosts. its a type that makes big yummy hips, has pretty rather large but not fancy pink flowers and lush greenery. there is a lilac suffering terribly from the same problem, its been there maybe 10 years (i've only been in this spot for 2 summers) and is still tiny. i'm going to move it to the north side of the workshop next month which is the last place the snow melts, hoping that will keep it dormant til after the last frost in spring. something to consider if you do decide to move any roses,- they might be just fine on the north side of a structure, which is often considered a very unfavorable location.

You know what Corey,

I did follow that exact strategy when placing my nectarine trees. I have apricots that bloom early and get frosted. They are an ancient orchard and I love the trees. Used to be 3 years in 5 I got a huge harvest. Who knows, anymore. But I have a neighbor to the south, just a little higher in elevation, and they built a privacy fence, and some out buildings on their side.

When I planted the nectarines, it was with the idea that the ground there would warm up the very last place on my property, and if the few more days or weeks of cold slowed the nectarines down, it might mean a more frequent harvest.

I've had nectarines every year sonce they began bearing about 3 years ago. I should have paid attention when they flowered in relation to the apricots, but apricots are "the earliest" by regional lore. What I really need to do is ask other people with nectarines, peaches and apricots what sequence they flower, and the time difference, or plant a nectarine by the apricots or an apricot by the nectarines. I don't know if the placement in the slowest to thaw ground has anything to do with it, but why not?

Thekla

As mentioned roses are great companion plants for grapes of all kinds. My daughter uses them in her vineyard. We make a rose wine that is heavenly and also a rose-ginger soda. One can also make a rose syrup to sweeten foods up or add some elegance to a dish. I use rose allot in our beauty product business from lotions, to creams, to soaps, rose is great for the skin. It not only heals (in my opinion and historically) but rejuvenates older skin.

We have had some success with certain roses here in the Rockies but newer plants appear to be more sensitive to climate change.

We do use a climber rose as a natural barrier, it does keep goats out t=but that said they do like to nibble rose leaves. .

During blossom season I would expand your culinary experimentation and try adding rose petals to various dishes.

All the best!

Gabriel Grace wrote:I love all the information provided here in this thread, but I did not see anyone talking about using roses as a natural protective hedge.

I did

Roses are a traditional plant in vineyards, at the end of each row, as a trap and early detection for aphids and probably other pests. And a bugger to get out once established.

Have fun with your new place. The beginning, when all things are possible, is so exciting. It reminds me of a Joan Didion quote:

Joan Didion wrote:What’s so hard about that first sentence is that you’re stuck with it. Everything else is going to flow out of that sentence. And by the time you’ve laid down the first two sentences, your options are all gone.

I believe roses totally have a place. They are edible (rose hips and petals in salads), bee food, a good indicator of your soil and they are pretty. Garlic and roses make good companions (I think the garlic helps the roses with aphids more than the other way around) and they are in the same family as apples (Rosaceae - the family includes apples, pears, quinces, apricots, plums, cherries, peaches, raspberries, loquats strawberries, almonds, roses, meadowsweets, photinias, firethorns, rowans, and hawthorns). If nothing else, you could leave them as an aphid magnet. Perhaps that might work?

If nothing else, the dried petals smell pretty too and potpourri will perfume a room or drawer of clothes nicely.

Aside from their medicinal, herbal and credibility, theu make great cover plants for chickens.

A tenth of an acre offers plenty of room for a half dozen chickens, and they use roses as shade and cover.
Forage for like rape, leaf Amaranth,turnips, southern peas... these can be intercropped around the roses for both you and my chickens.

You've been featured in the daily-ish email Congrats!

Seems everyone else has chimed in already, covering just about everything I would have said about roses and their place in permaculture, but if someone did say this and I missed it, sorry but I've got to say it again...SCENT

Roses smell pretty, while chicken poo, human pee and other permie things don't. There's nothing like the scent of roses on a warm summer breeze to put a smile on your face, especially when there's so many "other things" that wont make you smile.

Oh, another thing you might want to think about is if those roses have been in there for a couple years, and especially if they haven't been fertilized and fungicided to death, they'll be harboring beneficial mycorrhizae. Never underestimate the value of an established perennial when trying to get other plants to thrive

Here on The Camp we've got a ton of rosa rugosa for fedging, hips, pollinators and scent, plus several varieties of cultivated roses (cheapo buys from the local cheapo store) going in all over the place. I, for one, value roses - not one place that couldn't benefit from a rose bush or vine in my opinion.

The rose hips of the wild rose (rosa canina) are very high in Vit C and many other essential nutrients and for that reason is very popular in herbal medicine. Plus many of the old fashioned roses are loved by bees so I'm sure there is a place for them

Previous posts have already highlighted the many benefits and uses of roses: nutritious hips and edible petals, potential use in growing a thorny hedge/fence, trap crop for aphids, bee fodder, ornamental value (which I agree with previous posters: permies should never undervalue beauty in our systems!). I have also found my wild species roses are a great trap crop for Japanese beetles, if you have those in your area.

Like many here, I grow rugosa rose and have found it to be tough as nails. It's propensity to root sucker is both annoying and useful: requiring frequent attention if I don't wish my bushes to turn themselves into thickets, but also providing an endless supply of easily transplantable new roses. But, I don't know how much the hybrid tea roses the OP inherited with her land will follow this same pattern. I will also note that I was skeptical at first how well they might do in my heavy clay soil, since rugosa famously enjoys sandy places (I've read it is known to colonize beach dunes). They go crazy here! I think the take home lesson is that if you want a surefire, rapidly growing, rapidly spreading, and early producing species to jump start a bare patch on your property, wild roses are a good bet.

So, the question remains: should you maintain your hybrid roses or replace them with other species, including possibly wilder rose species? I would say give it time and let the roses tell you what to do with them. Give them no chemical care or overmuch attention and see how they respond after a year or two. If they continue to thrive, then you have learnt something about them, and you have enjoyed some free visual appeal to your otherwise empty lot while it is in its early establishment phase. As the rest of your systems mature, you will see how these roses fit into your growing landscape: whether their size and position are convenient for you or not. You might then chose later to replace them with some even more hardy and productive wild rose species if you found they were in a good spot. If they don't survive the neglect, then your decision has been made for you.

I planted some wild native roses in my yard a few years ago. Nootka rose, I think. I noticed that they had huge thorns, hardly any flowers, and the hips weren't even very good to eat. It spread everywhere and made it painful to be in that ever expanding part of my yard. I like native plants in general, but some work better in a wild setting than in one's own rather small yard.

John S
PDX OR

A locally owned nursery has a highly fragrant thornless variety of our local wild rose. They found it hiking, took a cutting, propagate it. I just found it this summer and brought one home. (pricey in a 5 gallon pot!) It has taken root, and settled in well. Several new stems from under ground. I have no idea what the hips will be like, or how much it will spread ( I hope it will spread to the goats' side of the fence). Will have to wait til this time next year to know.

Certainly if it does thousands of wonderful things, I'll let you all know, and encourage the owners of the nursery to propagate the plug size for the mail to permies business. They also propagate silver buffalo berry from wild gathered seeds, and many other fine native to this area or xeric plants.

I was going to say they do not have a website, but look how wrong I am! http://chelseanursery.com/

great people, but I don't know if they ship.

Thekla

Thekla McDaniels wrote:A locally owned nursery has a highly fragrant thornless variety of our local wild rose. They found it hiking, took a cutting, propagate it. I just found it this summer and brought one home. (pricey in a 5 gallon pot!) It has taken root, and settled in well. Several new stems from under ground. I have no idea what the hips will be like, or how much it will spread ( I hope it will spread to the goats' side of the fence). Will have to wait til this time next year to know.

Certainly if it does thousands of wonderful things, I'll let you all know, and encourage the owners of the nursery to propagate the plug size for the mail to permies business. They also propagate silver buffalo berry from wild gathered seeds, and many other fine native to this area or xeric plants.

I was going to say they do not have a website, but look how wrong I am! http://chelseanursery.com/

great people, but I don't know if they ship.

Thekla

A thornless wild rose? If indeed it demonstrates good qualities, they may have stumbled onto a real gem there. They should name it and start propagating, if that ends up the case - they may have a money-maker on their hands.

Yeah, that's what I thought. They're coming over tomorrow, I'll mention it, also get their report on what it does. I think they've been propagating it for several years. I'll keep you posted!

Thekla