Homesteading Business Courses Kickstarter

Ready to check out the kickstarter? Click here.

There is a growing interest and understanding of the importance of homesteading and there should be. Homesteading is a way of life. It should provide you with food, shelter, security, a healthy lifestyle and a safe place to raise a family. In order to provide those things we need to focus on how we provide those essentials and how they can provide financial stability at the same time. There are thousands of ways to build a thriving business on your homestead. But where do you find all that information? How do we ensure our endeavors are successful?



PermaEthos, a company that specializes in online education, is on a mission to build a rich library of courses relevant to homesteading. They have teamed up with Permies.com to see this undertaking come to fruition.

The first 12 courses of this initiative begin with homesteads in Georgia, Tennessee and Kentucky. The intent is to visit all contiguous 48 states and produce over 100 courses ranging from 30 minutes to 2 hours. Each course will eventually be their own product valued up to $200

Our kickstarter question to you; is there enough interest to develop a rich library of homesteading courses for us to take this on?



The video documentation of these phenomenal locations will showcase the amazing things they are doing and achieving to make a positive impact in their lives and the communities around them. These presentations will inspire, motivate and enable each of us to make a difference in our own ways so we can all make a positive impact in the communities around us by providing the financial means necessary to be successful.



In addition to showcasing these locations, there will be an emphasis on encapsulating their knowledge and skill sets into online courses so that people who want to put these skills into practice in their own lives have a blueprint to follow. The first course is by the Ponders on homeschooling and will be available immediately.



The Big Picture
The ultimate goal is to cover the country from coast to coast and capture the special interests of each stop into a course, in what will be a 1-2 year project. Rather than trying to fund the entire project at once, we are breaking it into phases. The initial phase is for 3 months through 3 states. This first KickStarter bears the upfront costs of acquiring the travel trailer, sound and videography equipment. Extending the tour will have the much lower requirements of only covering food and travel expenses.

The courses will allow us to see educational pieces from each location featured on the documentaries. With these courses both you and PermaEthos are able to get a preview of the knowledge these entrepreneurs have and how they do as an instructor. This has the potential to lead to intensive courses with these instructors in future educational opportunities.

Course Details
These courses are chosen by the staff of each place we visit and is central to a skill or trait they specialize in.

The courses are 30 minutes to 3 hours in length depending on the subject matter.

Each course will have a communication portal where you can interact with all of the other students and the instructors.

Some of these courses will have follow up videos and teach to student online meetups depending on the popularity and questions asked by the students.

Meet our videographers and explorers, the Ponder Family
Beyond seeing and learning from these locations, this tour will be a glimpse into the transformation we, the Ponder family, have made in our lives. The genesis of our family’s involvement in this farm tour came out of a Permaculture Design Course that our family was attending.

Determined that the conventional path wasn’t for us, we sold our house and set out on what became a 6-month journey of adventure and discovery. We had already laid the groundwork to remove ourselves from the “debt trap”, and choosing to educate our boys ourselves made it possible to sever the chains that hold most of us to the conventional lifestyle that society says we are supposed to live. Our goals are to have a homestead; to raise and grow a large portion of our food, to let our land provide for us, and to allow our boys to grow up truly experiencing life as free children. An interesting thing happens when you sever societies chains, you have a sense of freedom! The world around us always says rush, hurry, meet the deadline. We realized we could slow down and breath.


Brooks - the 5 year old
Brooks is full of spice! While he thinks he’s as old and capable as his oldest brother and is ready to charge all-in, he also cherishes quiet snuggle time with both parents and a good game of chess. When you find him off on his own, he is likely to be engaged in a project. Recently, Brooks spearheaded making a pond in the backyard with his brothers; and the following day returned solo to complete the project. His current audiobook crave is The Ramona Collection.


Brandon - the 8 year old
Brandon is artistic, playful and thoughtful. He is ready to dive into any crazy fun his brothers come up with, once he sees that they survived. However, without reservation, Brandon was the first to jump off a rock into icy cold Crater Lake. While he can be the quietest, he is probably also the silliest. Brandon enjoys building things out of scrap materials and lending a helping hand. He will be an eager and enthusiastic participant to the new experiences the tour will provide. His current audiobook crave is the Mary Poppins series.


Bennett - the 10 year old
Bennett is curious and energetic. He is eager to find out what, why, and how. He loves to climb trees and is always scheming to capitalize on the next adventure. There is never a dull moment where Bennett is concerned. He will be an active participant in the farm tours desiring to know all there is to know, and keen on partaking in all there is to do. When you are ready for a break, he will be asking, "What’s next?!" Current audiobook crave: How To Train Your Dragon series.


Michelle - the mom
Michelle has a true pioneer spirit. She delights in planning, organizing, and helping others. She thoroughly enjoyed a small taste of tending a garden, cooking from the harvest, and raising chickens; and is eager to cultivate the knowledge and skills to have a homestead of her own one day. Michelle's favorite pastime with her children is reading to them.


Cliff - the dad
Cliff is a laidback introvert who communicates well with people and is a self-proclaimed nerd. His last name fits him well. He’s a self-learner and loves to be always gaining more knowledge on a vast array of subjects. Cliff likes to build and create, and readily delves into projects of all sorts from computer software to mechanics to round wood timber.

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See exclusive interviews with the Ponders and the folks they visit. Discover special clips not included in the YouTube videos. Download available to watch anytime (without the internet).

Boondocking - The Ponders will be traveling in an RV and sharing their experiences of living in and traveling in close quarters.

Attractions - The Ponders will be visiting popular, and not so popular, attractions, campgrounds, national parks, and more during the trip.

YOU - the Ponders plan on doing meetups with you, our supporters. They would also like to stop by your place to see what projects and sustainable living practices you have in place.


When To Expect Your Rewards
Daily videos documenting the tour will start April 6th.

The first Quick Win course (Understanding Homeschooling) by the Ponders FAN emails and YouTube videos will start when the KickStarter funds. will be available immediately upon the successful funding of the KickStarter.

The Understanding Homeschooling Quick Win will address frequent questions and concerns regarding homeschooling. Includes resources for getting started and touches on the legality of home education. It goes through how the Ponders do their home education and curriculum they use. If you are interested in homeschooling but aren’t sure if it’s right for you or how to get started, this is for you. After completion, you’ll be ready and eager to launch into educating your own children.

The Documentary film will be made available after the Farm and Sustainability Tour (late 2018).


Why We Want Your Help
Filming and uploading daily videos (while on the road) requires a reliable, mobile media studio. Funds raised will go towards the following:

Filming Equipment
Video Editors
Meals
RV Trailer
Camp Grounds
Insurance
Fuel
Storage Unit
Extra Activities / National Parks


See our kickstarter page for all of the rewards and details on how you can support this historical event.

Just became the fifth backer.

I'm happy to see more people documenting all these amazing places.

Thank you!

I'm a backer! Cliff's voice is just about perfect - something about it is super smooth, yet engaging at the same time.

In our expedition we seek to send our explorers to every state in the US, in order to document sustainable farms and businesses and the knowledge they have.

How would a farm or business be added to the list of possible stops?

Karen Donnachaidh wrote:

In our expedition we seek to send our explorers to every state in the US, in order to document sustainable farms and businesses and the knowledge they have.

How would a farm or business be added to the list of possible stops?

Send an email to josiah (at) permaethos.com and I will have Cliff or myself get in contact.

14th Backer My Luck Number.
Georgia looks a little thin with visits. Not sure how you guys are traveling or where your staying but I accidentally have established a mini camp ground with an extra  RV for guest if you guys make it around Andersonville, GA
Just Excited that some one is going to show case the South, excellent climate for so few permie people.

Bump because this is so awesome.
Did you guys see, even the one dollar donation has great rewards?  Not to mention some of the other goodies at the higher levels.  

I interviewed Cliff today about the Farm and Sustainability Tour and the kickstarter.

It was a 45 minutes discussion I edited down to about 15 minutes.  I will be releasing the full length discussion soon after I launch my new podcast.

here is the video:

Jocelyn Campbell wrote: Cliff's voice is just about perfect - something about it is super smooth, yet engaging at the same time.

I was thinking the same thing when I was listening to his voice over on the video.  He has a profession voice over voice...he could be the guy that does that for movie trailers!

Rhodes family just finished theirs, and now we will have one more family on the tour. How this one will be different?

For $40, folks get:

  - Georgia Farms DVD as HD streaming
  - Tennesee Farms DVD as HD streaming
  - Kentucky Farms DVD as HD streaming
  - Ponder Family DVD as HD streaming
  - access to the ThriveThrough community club
  - early access to daily youtube videos
  - email updates
  - Understanding Homeschooling quick win course
  - hugelkultur micro documentary
  - permaculture playing cards ebook
  - 21 podcast review of "Holzer Permaculture"
  - public thanks

Most of you can probably see a bunch of my stuff in there.   I threw it in the pot in the hopes that it would help lovely people do lovely things.  

So far, the kickstarter hasn't been doing well.   At this rate, it won't get funded.   Did I give bad advice?  I hope folks will help to get this project off the ground.  I like to see awesome people have awesome success at sharing this sort of thing!

If a hundred people put in $1 in one day, that would push it up to the kickstarter "popular" list and get heaps of attention for permaculture and small farms.

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:I'm a backer! Cliff's voice is just about perfect - something about it is super smooth, yet engaging at the same time.

Thanks Jocelyn!

Dan Ohmann wrote:

Jocelyn Campbell wrote: Cliff's voice is just about perfect - something about it is super smooth, yet engaging at the same time.

I was thinking the same thing when I was listening to his voice over on the video.  He has a profession voice over voice...he could be the guy that does that for movie trailers!

Just as long as this isn’t a “face made for radio” comment.

Just kidding.  If anyone needs a voice for something, I’d be happy to help.

I'm in!  I hope y'all can get a podcast together quickly, to reach the folks who don't wade into their own email rivers often enough.

Joy Oasis wrote:Rhodes family just finished theirs, and now we will have one more family on the tour. How this one will be different?

This tour focuses on education in the form of documentaries and quick-win courses. While there are many differences between the two project, the biggest difference between the Rhodes family tour and this one is the quick-win courses. Each location will teach an online course which is separate from the documentaries. These courses will allow the world and PermaEthos to see educational materials from many people who have never shared their knowledge in the form of a course before. This could lead to much more intensive educational courses in the future.

End comment on quote....

Now in response to other posts about this tour being the same as the Rhodes Family Tour.
Calling this kickstarter the same as the Rhodes Family Tour is the same as calling Paul Wheaton's PDC the same as any other PDC. That doesn't even do it justice because PDC's follow the same base curriculum. They just aren't the same. They might cover some of the same basic principles but they are totally different experiences.

I can think of more examples... Batman movie compared to the Iron Man movie... they are both super heroes sure, but are they the same movies? Would you not go to one because the other exists?
An excavator and a dump truck... both heavy equipment sure, but are they the same machines?
Echinacea and Garlic are both great plants and they are both medicinal sure, but are they just the same plants?
.....

I could go on and on but I would really like your feedback. How do you see them as just the same things? We really don't want to see this kickstarter fail to fund because people think it is the same as a previous kickstarter. We don't want to take up valuable real-estate on the kickstarter page discussing a previous kickstarter and how we are different from that one, but maybe that is what we need to do?

Another problem I have is people saying this is a copy cat of Justin Rhodes Family Tour. Their kickstarter was posted on January 2017. We started planning this tour back in 2016 as the PermaBurn Tour. We had no idea Justin Rhodes was going to be launching a kickstarter for a tour around the contry and even if we did it would not change what we were doing, because we are not Justin Rhodes and our product is not the same thing.

Hey, I've read the email from Paul and those words make me want do support you. I wish I could afford to go for the 4 DVD set, but I'd have to settle with slightly less. Thanks for your effort, I wish you God speed! Crank it, step on it and bake your cake and eat it too!

Eivind Bjoerkavaag wrote:Hey, I've read the email from Paul and those words make me want do support you. I wish I could afford to go for the 4 DVD set, but I'd have to settle with slightly less. Thanks for your effort, I wish you God speed! Crank it, step on it and bake your cake and eat it too!

Thank you Elvind. Support at every level is of great help.

We just made a major update to the kickstarter and put in a new video!

I would be all over this if I could save my rewards for the states I'm interested in rather than Georgia, Tennessee and Kentucky.

Kyrt Ryder wrote:I would be all over this if I could save my rewards for the states I'm interested in rather than Georgia, Tennessee and Kentucky.

Thank you for your feedback. We are really trying to figure out exactly why the kickstarter is not doing as well as it should be. If you have the time would you mind answering a couple of questions to help us better understand?

1. Is there a reason why the states concern you?
2. Do you feel that the businesses that homesteaders in these states run are irrelevant to you?
3. Would it have made a difference to you if we did not mention which states we are visiting?
4. Do you avoid buying other products from these states?

I love the revamp of the kickstarter! I'll be sending out a blurb for it in the next dailyish!

Josiah Wallingford wrote:

Kyrt Ryder wrote:I would be all over this if I could save my rewards for the states I'm interested in rather than Georgia, Tennessee and Kentucky.

Thank you for your feedback. We are really trying to figure out exactly why the kickstarter is not doing as well as it should be. If you have the time would you mind answering a couple of questions to help us better understand?

1. Is there a reason why the states concern you?[

The states concern me because I live in a fairly unique climate (cool damp Mediterranean essentially) and I find far greater personal value in seeing others solving challenges in my climate (Western Wa, Western Oregon and Northwestern California.)

Not to say that the tactics and techniques of homesteaders in other climates can't have some use or be reinterpreted for my region, but those are the ones I would prefer to buy case by case and use my rewards for my own region.

2. Do you feel that the businesses that homesteaders in these states run are irrelevant to you?

Not irrelevant, but again the culture and market in this region (and the regulations to a lesser degree) are fairly distinct

3. Would it have made a difference to you if we did not mention which states we are visiting?

Without knowing which states were included in the reward I would be less interested in participating in the Kickstarter and likely just wait until you released a specific product that caught my eye.

4. Do you avoid buying other products from these states?

No, but to me they hold less value and thus less priority than local content. There are some circumstances where I would buy the local content, but look at content from another region and think something along the lines of 'maybe I can budget that in another time.'

There is so much about crowdfunding that is a mystery to me.  

I thought that our live pdc, which asked for $6800, had a 50/50 chance of getting funded.  But it got 1400% funded.  

I thought this kickstarter would be close also, because they were asking for $43,000.  But I threw in a bunch of my own stuff to help them get funded.   And we worked a deal so that their stuff would end up in the permies.com digital market.  It felt like good business.  I was even grooving on the idea that there would eventually be 48 DVDs, one for each state.  Each with three to four homestead businesses.   This seemed rock solid to me, but it looks like it won't happen.

Please, please, please give me feedback.  Lots of details.  Josiah and Cliff followed all of my advice to the letter.  I have two projects in the works right now that would be kickstarter projects and I am now thinking that maybe I should scrap them before even getting to kickstarter.  

I felt like the initial kickstarter was rock solid.   After it did poorly, I met with josiah and cliff and we brainstormed to make the changes you see now.  I thought "there's only a few days left, but I admit, what we have created now is three times better than what we first offered."  And it is still doing poorly.  

There are hundreds of farms doing amazing stuff and we don't know about them because they are not "youtube people" or "teach classes people".  So this project would roll up, harvest a lot of knowledge, set that knowledge up as a class and we can tap the knowledge of those people directly.  

Ok, ok, ok, sorry ...   i'm a bit enthusiastic about the project.   The focus of this post is:  what went wrong?  Why do folks support my previous kickstarters, but they are less keen to support this one?

Well, I'll give my limited feedback.  I'm not much into kickstarters so my feedback is from the uninformed consumer perspective (I did do the kickstarter for the PDC/ATC).

With the PDC/ATC kickstarter I knew what I was going to get.  PDC's are a common-ish thing so I knew I'd see the same stuff that I'd otherwise have to travel and spend $$$$ to get.  So funding that one was a no brainer.  The RMH and other perks were frosting on the cake.

I wonder how many of the PDC/ATC funders were already Permies members?  You had a captive audience that is rooting for YOU and willing to fund YOU (Paul).  I don't know the Ponders and I barely know about PermaEthos.  So marketing them to me is trickier.  It's obviously supported heavily by you and Permies but I believe the perks you added in are ones that I already got with the last kickstarter.

When I saw this one the first time I wasn't sure what I would get.  Courses sound good but I guess they didn't resonate.  I just went in to see the edits and from what I remember of the last time I looked at it, it's more clear now.  

I'm guessing if people could watch one course and see how valuable it is, they'd be more willing to fund the future ones.  There is a lot of Youtube content out there for homesteaders.  While some is junk, some is good.  And it's free.  These "courses" would probably be eons better than a Youtube video but until you see one, you're just hoping/assuming.

Do the Ponders know who they'll be visiting and what the courses will be on?  Laying that out would be very helpful.

It seems like if this funding campaign buys materials that will be used for all 48 states, shouldn't there be a package to get all 48 DVDs?  Maybe that's a commitment they can't make now but is there a way to set up a refund if the remaining states aren't done?

I watched Justin Rhodes cross the country on Youtube.  If he had this very same kickstarter to do courses in detail, I'd be more likely to sign up, just because I've seen him in action and know him (vicariously).  

There's my $.02

There are a couple of things that stand out to me

1. This kickstarter was launched not long after the Christmas holiday period. I suspect a lot of people are still recovering financially from that.
2. This kickstarter was launched and published shortly after another Kickstarter promoted by the Daily-ish email - To Catch The Rain. Another drain on the wallet.
3. The list of rewards is fantastic, especially the $1 backer level. And you would be right in thinking that a lot of people could spare $1 (regardless of points 1 and 2).  However I suspect the reason there are not a lot more backers at that level is that people who have backed your kickstarters previously already have most of those reward items, so don't feel the need to get them again. Maybe pulling something else out of the grab bag to offer up.
4. They are not you. You already have a large established following. People who have seen you deliver content (paid and free) time and time again. I realise everybody has to start somewhere, but people tend to go with what is tried and tested. You see the same thing on eBay, people tend to shop from sellers with high ratings over newer sellers.
5. They are asking money for a lot of different items in one go, bumping up the total asking amount as a result. Maybe instead of one big kickstarter, they could try breaking it up into a few smaller projects, prioritising the order they need things in.

I know zero about the behind the scenes of a Kickstarter so my comments may be irrelevant, but anyway... my reaction on viewing the Kickstarter was that it was too similar to Justin Rhodes and I didn't watch most of that anyway because I already do more than most of the people he visited. If I want to learn something I go looking for that specific thing. What I'm suggesting is that the Kickstarter is not reaching people who are at that level of information need. Those of us already doing stuff don't feel inclined to pay for one family's road trip to go and see other people doing stuff

It's kind of difficult to support a Kickstarter for an unknown.  I spend money with perma YouTubers who have great content and provide a product I want.  My food forest is young so I have quite a bit of planting to do.  Half of my planting budget this year was spent with Permacultralists in my Region who are providing stock for things like trees, perennials vegetables and etc. and they also happen provide educational videos that are educational.    The relationship is built, value is provided, support follows.  

I think some of the larger Perma/gardening YouTubers have a huge following but many of those people don't garden or actually do permaculture or food forestry.  Permies who are really doing this stuff want brass tacks, not a: 10-minute intro of smiling kids.  I'm not saying smiling kids are a bad thing but if the title of the video says something like "comfrey is awesome."  I don't want to watch someone eating breakfast before they talk about comfrey.  I think when videos are done like this it automatically reduces credibility.

There always has to be value, people see right through lip service.

This is just my two cents and an attempt, to be honest, and not hurtful in any way.

Regards, Scott

I did fund it, and first I will give you the positives- I think that is the emphasis.

First- I have seen Josiah's work with the PDC. There was a lot of required postproduction and he put some effort into making it time-effective. I can get free podcasts all the time, but I can't justify the hours spent gleaning things. The only ones I watch are the high-quality ones. I am willing to pay for the time I save.

Second- These are people who are too busy DOING to have a youtube channel. There are some people who can do both, but not many. This is a good way of bringing them expertise in getting their ideas out there. Rhodes did a nice job, first mover in the market.

The negatives, as mentioned, with the timeframe around christmas, the fatigue of the "sharing economy", and the fact that some people have already got the "goodies" from other efforts. for me it is just the busy season in spring and I haven't even read Bryant's latest which means I have no time!

Still worth it to me, also just to keep Josiah viable, he does good work. Shout out to Diego Footer as well. The good producers find the information that is transferable.

Greetings,

I think some of the others have hit on my concerns also.

I did look at the Kickstarter page when it was brought up in the daily-ish, but was a bit confused about what would be different from other productions (Justin), and what some of the terms meant.

What is a “micro course,” for example?  A trailer type thing, or enough for an actual “course?”

A big question for me would be the content/subjects of the main courses, and, frankly, the related costs for multiple courses, each of which could be up to $200.

In a short period, that adds up to a big pile of cash that I would perhaps rather save to spend on cover crops and self-propelled soil conditioners (Cows, sheep, and chickens.)

Hope this helps somewhat.

Really like the idea; just not sure of the expense.

Happy trails,

Keith

When I discovered the kickstarter through the daily-ish email, my first reaction was similar to Sue's. This kickstarter follows to closely on the heels of the Great American Farm Tour done by Justin Rhodes and lacks a sense of originality because of that fact, even though it is a great idea. And I've already acquired many of the add-on bonuses through previous kickstarters with a paul wheaton connection.

I want to second exactly what Becky said: this seems like almost exactly the same thing as what Justin Rhodes just did? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAuUTeNkuas&list=PLc-T0ryHZ5U_KTks_SfM_bKY0CZuaBa33

Thanks to all of your feedback, josiah called me and ....   we visited ....  and brainstormed and ...  

Josiah is modifying the kickstarter.   He is going to list the 12 courses and supply a description of what the courses will be like and supply a list of the courses that will be built from the other 45 states.  

Because a key ingredient of all this is that this is just the beginning.  But if this one doesn't get funded, then the rest are definitely not happening.  

Another angle on all this is that Justin's stuff was 50 states in a year.  There would be youtube videos and dvds.   THIS project is 48 states in 48 months.  With one DVD and a set of classes for each state.

I started watching the Great American Farm Tour every day, but as it went on i lost interest. I wasn't learning anything new. I don't really enjoy having to sit through family time before getting to the useful information, although it seems like lots of people DO like that- which is why Justin is doing so well.

I'm also surprised at the ask of $43,000- Justin I think only aimed to raise $10,000? I can't remember-was it less? but i was on with them LIVE on YouTube when they crashed right through that. It was pretty neat. Point being- 43,000 seems like a lot. I've bought bundles, and courses before and the reality is that i rarely use them. I participate in webinars, and summits- and occasionally get a couple pages of notes that i lose in my stacks of books and other papers. But those things are free- or low cost. So as others have said, i'd really be taking a chance on these courses.

And i also agree about the states issue. I live in PA, in a flood plain at the base of a mountain. GA, KY and TN i wouldn't anticipate there being much that would help with the issues i'm having which have to do with water water everywhere! and cold. and more water. most people are trying to collect water, and sink it- i need mine to DRAIN AWAY. i can't even get my pasture to take hold so i can rotationally graze, to increase the organic matter and increase the water holding capacity because nothing will grow except sedge :/

i just dont see the need when there's already so much information available online and at the library.

There is a lot of key differentiation between the GAFT and the HBC in these replies and also the basic objections that folks have to "something similar".

As a Kickstarter Superbacker, and Backer #1 for this Kickstarter - when it comes to the precis/executive summary/"Why we doing this" - answer the objections quickly with the differentiation. I'm saying that it isn't needed to state the objections, just to put the differentiation out to those implied objections.

You've also explained the scope of the project much better than the initial offering did, that is another crucial thing to get right out of the chute. The scope, the time investment and what tangible things folks can expect from future projects in this train. This isn't a travelogue, it is a teachalogue with different BUSINESS ideas being shared and taught - not looking for the Greatest American Farm. I already understood this from some of the side play I've observed, not to mention Josiah's involvement with getting the PDC/ATC material out.

The kid aspect is a great one in that learning/doing a business should make sense to a kid, so they can see themselves doing something besides being a cubicle dweller or a fast food drone.

If this one doesn't make it, I highly suggest coming back at it from a very different direction than currently.

Nessa Amz wrote:And i also agree about the states issue. I live in PA, in a flood plain at the base of a mountain. GA, KY and TN i wouldn't anticipate there being much that would help with the issues i'm having which have to do with water water everywhere! and cold. and more water. most people are trying to collect water, and sink it- i need mine to DRAIN AWAY. i can't even get my pasture to take hold so i can rotationally graze, to increase the organic matter and increase the water holding capacity because nothing will grow except sedge :/

To be fair this scenario is very real in parts of Ky and Tn, cold included. (The swamp issue is even more common in Georgia, though without the cold.)

That being said I can certainly see how you'd get more value out of- say- PA and NY