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a college degree in 2025/2026/2027 ... don't

Dan Robinson

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About comments by Ed Simpson:

... college for young people coming out of HS is still (almost) always a GOOD idea.

... there is NO way I could have what I have today without my college degrees.

These statements could benefit from additional clarification and supporting arguments.

For example, why is it "still always a GOOD idea?" And why is there "NO way" you could have what you have today without your college degrees? What exactly do you have that could not be obtained in some profession or activity (e.g., owning a business) not requiring a college degree?

Numerous professions require a college degree due to regulatory requirements. Therefore, if one desires to practice these professions, a college degree is required.

For example, some of these professions requiring a college degree include: Physician, Dentist, Pharmacist, Registered Nurse, Physical Therapist, Lawyer, K-12 Teacher, College Professor, Engineer, Architect, Scientist, CPA, Veterinarian, and others.

Therefore, if a person feels called or has a passion for a field that requires a college degree due to regulation by the government or other PTB (Powers That Be), there is no alternative.

Without a clear life plan, pursuing a college degree just because someone says, "it's always a GOOD idea," doesn't hold water. These college cheerleading statements should provide the following fine print: "Past performance is not indicative of future results, " and "Returns may vary and are not guaranteed."

As I write these statements in November 2025, there are millions of college-degreed workers without jobs. And if any of these workers have massive college debt (not to mention other debts), they are between a rock and a hard place.

If the wishful thinking of the AGI (Artificial General Intelligence) prophets and disciples is valid, many more college-educated jobs will be eliminated in the future.

If someone desires to play this cat-and-mouse job game, in which field should one pursue a college degree?

With a cheap piece of sweet-smelling paper called a "diploma," you are not "guaranteed" anything. And you will be competing with a massive crowd of people who also have diplomas for the same positions. In short, the markets are overflooded with diploma-carrying indentured servants.

In days of yore, due to many reasons believed valid at that time, we as a society were brainwashed by industry in bed with government and educational organizations to think that smart people go to college and dumb people go into the trades. Shop classes were terminated in many high schools due to faith in the college education religion. Parents and caregivers trained their children to think the same way. And it worked for a long time.

As a result of this massive push for students to go to college, the cost of a college education has risen faster than the cost of healthcare.

Those magnificent days of yore are fast approaching a tipping point. And, the trades are making a comeback for a very good reason.

When deciding on a career path, COUNT THE COSTS, both direct costs and lost earnings costs over 4 to 5 years (or longer, depending on the degree). If massive debt is involved, this significantly affects the costs. Additionally, what is the statistical likelihood of securing employment with a specific degree, 4 to 5 years after starting college?

Then make an informed decision on which path to follow, given your talents and desires.

And remember: "Returns may vary and are not guaranteed," and "Past performance is not indicative of future results."

H Bhajan

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Theresa okava if you can please kindly reply with more details about free federal program with an exam I would greatly appreciate it. I have a senior in high school who has his P P L(private pilot license /certificate) and wants a career in commercial aviation. I’m a first gen college graduate myself and struggle to guide him on a good path for what he wants to accomplish, so many things are changing quickly it seems. I understand if it was many years ago but it will still give me an idea of what to search for. Thank you all for sharing this information, it is so valuable.

Tereza Okava

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I hear you on your desire to help your kid, H Bhajan, that was me as well.

There are free federal universities across Latin America. We moved to Brazil. Although my daughter is a citizen (multiple nationalities) Brazil also allows refugees and immigrants with legal status to take the exams and study. Other countries like Mexico, Chile, etc I'm not sure. Of course, the exams are subject specific and in the language of the land, which is a lot to get in order for a senior in high school.

That said, there certainly must be things in English-speaking countries-- Singapore has air traffic training institutes and accepts international students.

John Weiland

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H Bhajan wrote:......I have a senior in high school who has his P P L(private pilot license /certificate) and wants a career in commercial aviation. I’m a first gen college graduate myself and struggle to guide him on a good path for what he wants to accomplish, so many things are changing quickly it seems. I understand if it was many years ago but it will still give me an idea of what to search for. ...

If he does not mind cold winters, the program at the University of North Dakota may have special scholarships for his interests:

https://aero.und.edu/success-center/index.html

https://aero.und.edu/aviation/current-students/career-pathways.html

Good luck!

“The most important decision we make is whether we believe we live in a friendly or hostile universe.”― Albert Einstein

paul wheaton

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I think that if a person is about to enter college and get a free ride, then college is delightful. A beautiful experience. And you learn stuff too.

Traditionally, the idea was that when you graduate, you would get a higher paying job. And throughout your career, the pay would keep going up and you eventually repay those student loans. And then the professional pay would continue to set you up for an easy retirement at 65.

This thread started with a woman asking about returning to college to finish her degree. Put in just two more years to get that piece of paper, and, hopefully, the skills to be a software engineer.

Because she is currently working several low paying part time jobs, and she is exploring getting better paying jobs, I concluded that she would need to get loans to pull off college.

The root of this whole thread is

to speculate on if going to college will result in a higher paying job

Using the mighty power of imagination, think of what life will be like five years in the future. And to look back from that point to see who made smart choices and who made poor choices. All of this contemplation is so that we (including the woman in question) could make wise choices today.

What is life going to be like with 70% unemployment?

If your whole life is set up with having a job, complete with cash flow, and you cannot get a job, but you still need money to eat, what happens?

I am suggesting that the smart people are those that have a humble home and a huge garden will be the wisest. Far wiser than the people that need 40 years of strong, reliable cash flow.

Perhaps this woman would be 1000x more comfortable if she spent those 2 years pursuing skip. Or joining the bootcamp.

my kickstarter is now live!

Gordon Blair

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Anne Miller wrote:By the way, acting as a career choice is going away ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilly_Norwood

Kill it with digital fire...

This thing can only be viable because the mainstream alternative has become THAT generic and vapid.

Dan Robinson

Posts: 23

Location: Sale Creek, TN

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What is life going to be like with 70% unemployment?

If your whole life is set up with having a job, complete with cash flow, and you cannot get a job, but you still need money to eat, what happens?

I am suggesting that the smart people are those that have a humble home and a huge garden will be the wisest. Far wiser than the people that need 40 years of strong, reliable cash flow.

Perhaps this woman would be 1000x more comfortable if she spent those 2 years pursuing skip. Or joining the bootcamp.

Paul makes many excellent points that I agree with.

One question might be: How does one obtain a "humble home" with which to grow "huge gardens" without appropriate financial resources?

Property in most parts of the country is becoming extremely difficult to obtain without significant financial arrangements.

I was fortunate to purchase approximately 12 acres of forested property using an IRA account during a real estate crash — one of the best financial decisions I have ever made. I have more space to grow gardens (and lots of deer and other critters to eat those gardens) than you can shake a stick at, not to mention other modern survival types of things I could do if I ever get around to doing them before I kick the bucket.

If I had waited until now, I would not have had the financial means to purchase that property; moreover, it would have been sold a long time ago.

However, the IRA account and future additional resources for property development were obtained through indentured servitude to Big Monkeys in the Corporate Jungle.

Most people are not this fortunate. And it is becoming increasingly tough to make a go of it out there in La La Land due to inflation and the rise of AIBC (Artificial Intelligence Bull Crap) taking over the world.

Therefore, people will need to be really creative in navigating this situation.

One of the things I appreciate about communities like this one is the idea generation and practical applications that lead to modern survival.

Here is the bottom line:

Things and the world are changing rapidly. Paradigms that served us well in the past no longer hold. Don't get caught up in holding onto those outdated concepts, such as "a college education leading to indentured servitude to corporate elites ensures nirvana and paradise on earth."

Become the CEO of your life. Stay in creative thinking mode, and learn from others. Grow gardens and barter with neighbors, even if the humble home is a tent with a rocket mass heater.

paul wheaton

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One question might be: How does one obtain a "humble home" with which to grow "huge gardens" without appropriate financial resources?

SKIP: get 200 acres, 2 homes, rigs, coin, etc. for zero money.

Join the bootcamp. If a person spends 4 years in a leadership role here I will give you an acre with a humble home and a huge garden. Like allerton abbey

my kickstarter is now live!

John F Dean

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One of the complexities of employment is to define it. To me, a disturbing number of people do not see minimum wage as employment. I don’t know how well someone can live on a homestead with zero employment. I am certain that it can be done with a 20 hour a week minimum wage job.
And that will put a family far ahead of someone who “knows” they are worth more than that and refuses to work for less than what they “know” they are worth.

I suspect that part of being a Permie is the ability to define your self work in terms that go beyond $$.

If there is one thing the Wizard of Oz has taught me, it is not to trust school teachers on bicycles.

M Ljin

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May I suggest building community and working with community as an alternative to jobs?

Of course jobs are helpful, but they are essentially a way of buying into a more industrialized, standardized form of community security, the agreement that “we will give you symbolic value in exchange for your servitude which you can use to access the following commodities, which you are dependent upon because we have robbed you of all your knowledge of how to be a wild human being”.

For natural community, the agreement is more like, “Be a nice person, do your best at being fully human, and we will support you when you fall.”

Definitely, a family can support itself perfectly fine off the land, and it has been demonstrated countless times through history, but it helps to have the security of “if I fall, I can ask my neighbors/kin to help me back up”. I heard somewhere that an Amazonian Indian man, asked why he doesn’t store the meat he hunts, but gives it away, says, “I store my meat in the belly of my brother.”

The trick is living in concert with the land, because the land regenerates, whereas the world economy mostly parasitizes and sends your energy upwards to be used whimsically and thoughtlessly by those richer than yourself. I think that college debt can put a pressure not only on the individual, but on the community, which loses the labor power of the young, energetic people who can help work the soil, build terraces, plant trees, and in general make efforts toward genuine progress towards a natural and regenerative future.

Dan Robinson

Posts: 23

Location: Sale Creek, TN

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Lina Joana wrote:

I can’t see this, or anything, preparing someone for 70% unemployment. For context, the height of the Great Depression saw 25% unemployment.

I don't think things will get that bad anytime soon. Keep in mind that the emperors of AI are mostly all talk and hype as they move toward AGI (Artificial General Intelligence). They need to attract trillions of dollars from investors to realize their dream of building the Tower of Babel, not to mention government regulations friendly to their cause.

The massive elephant in the room is energy. To achieve this dream of paradise (mainly for the elites behind the scenes), these data centers, which run the AI algorithms, will consume massive amounts of energy that the electrical grids cannot currently support, not to mention the increasing number of electric vehicles.

Therefore, research and development funding are needed for nuclear energy and micro-nuclear reactors. They are also converting natural gas and bringing back online coal-fired plants (to the chagrin of environmentalists) to supply this energy. Then there is computer chip production and research to support these efforts.

I believe many of the high-tech workers who recently lost their jobs did not do so because they were replaced by robots (i.e., algorithms). It is because these AI companies are diverting investment dollars to build out the infrastructure that supports their dreams of wishing upon a star. And they must do this in a fashion that keeps Wall Street investors happy; in other words, the financials must remain robust. Of course, these carnival-barking CEOs and executives are doing song and dance routines with the public to minimize negative PR.

Sooner or later, there may be a day of reckoning when the return on investment does not justify the money spent, and investors become frightened. If that happens, this house of cards might come tumbling down. Also, what happens if the economy crashes for reasons unrelated to AI?

So, there are obstacles that may prevent (or at least slow down) the construction of the Empire of AI.

Here is food for thought:

How much energy is consumed by AI algorithms to do simple things that humans can do with far less energy consumption than a robot?

How much money are companies (and consumers) willing to pay for AI, which requires massive energy consumption, to implement into their processes? And how much money will they save by doing so?

Unless a robot costs less than $200 and can massage my back, wash my dishes, bring me a beer, and keep its mouth shut, I'm not buying.

Tristan Vitali

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Lina Joana wrote:
I can’t see this, or anything, preparing someone for 70% unemployment. For context, the height of the Great Depression saw 25% unemployment.
If it comes to that, there will either be a complete and utter collapse of society which will include the big businesses and AI (nobody to buy their products) or there will be a new economic model.

In the first scenario: How will the farmer who supposed to will his land to the skipper hang on to his land long enough to do so? How will he pay taxes when his bank crashes, taking his savings? How will he finish out farming when there is nobody who can afford to buy the crops he sells? Same questions apply even if you own land- how will you pay for electricity to run your well? How will you replace those 20-year lifespan solar panels? Or the well pump, or the excavator parts, or or or…
Upshot - lets hope this doesn’t happen. It is never a bad idea to own land, learn skills, and do a bit of “prepping”. But I personally don’t think that this will save you if we are talking full societal disintegration. Then again, I have never met a gert - only farmers trying hard to live by those principles, and finding it tremendously difficult. So maybe my perspective is incomplete.

A new economic model indeed. Or perhaps we could think of it in the sense of "the old economic model" where people were/are subsistence farmers, sell what little surplus they have and/or trade based on their practical skill sets (masonry, carpentry, blacksmithing, etc), and eek out a fairly fulfilling existence within their tight-nit communities, raising a family and teaching their children the trade.

The "prepper community" often speaks of this sort of collapse stemming from an economic implosion and point to things like gold, silver, .22 ammo and practical skill sets as "worthwhile investments for trade and barter in that dire future". Even things like alcohol and tobacco fit that bill - imagine something similar to the so-called prison economy at a community level where you can buy some apples from the guy down the road for a few packs of cigarettes.

In that sort of scenario, the government "adjusts" - a good thing to remember is that government is downstream of culture, and culture is a product of community.

Would it ever get to that point? I say "sure, why not?" - anything is possible. Add in a few natural disasters, collapse of social services like policing and welfare programs, and mobs of angry people who don't have practical skills like growing/raising food. College can't prepare you for that world and was never designed to. Instead, college prepares you only for the "rat race" world of earn money - spend money. If that fails you for any reason (such as AI taking over everything), the only conventional alternatives available to the college graduate are tax-payer funded social welfare programs or criminal activities.

If we're heading in that direction, or anything like it, I'd prefer to have millions of Gerts-in-training out there who would be much more equipped to succeed and perhaps flourish in a world with no money, no jobs and no holds barred. "Gert" is someone I don't foresee robbing and thieving as a way of life. "Gert" is a valuable, productive and highly appreciated member of a community. In fact, a community might gather around "Gert" in such a scenario in an effort to learn from her insight and understanding of how systems work, allowing the whole community to become "Gerts" themselves (Gert the carpenter living next door to Gert the blacksmith, both growing most of their own food and trading their skills / surplus for things they don't grow or can't do).

Will AI cause a 70% unemployment? I personally doubt the number, but it's certainly not making things "better". Some numbers on unemployment (such as those that include "underemployment" and those who've given up looking for work) show us to be much worse now than during the Great Depression already.

Another thing that comes to mind: Big corporations spend gobs of money trying to astro-turf culture for a reason. Collapsing society through economic implosion would be bad business. Adopting a new economic model is something they have spent a lot of time on already. We've heard some truly out-there ideas over the years of what models they'd like to bring in, but from this vantage point, they don't seem to have a solid idea of what new culture they'd like to roll out. Much of what they've "presented" to us as "options" thus far have been flatly rejected by most cultures around the world ("own nothing be happy" rental-only economies, universal basic income, smart cities, population reduction, etc).

From a purely selfish point of view, I'd rather have a generation of Gerts than a generation of college educated debt-slaves if ANYTHING dire occurs, be it AI-apocalypse or some other obvious and foreseeable future catastrophe

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Jay Angler

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I have been, and still am, very supportive of the SkIP program. If you work through even just the first level of a wide variety of BB's, you will learn how to do things that other people have to pay money for. I have way too many people asking me to fix things for them which 100 years ago, virtually all women, and many men, would have been able to mend, alter, or sew from scratch. I have done several projects for SkIP, or just because I wanted to, that were predominantly made from upcycled material. Many of them were done totally by hand, so a variety of needles, thread, pins/clips, and decent scissors are all you need to own.

Example: A friend had a butterfly net and the netting has solar degraded to the point she was going to throw it out. The frame and extendable handle are in excellent shape. I'm now dusting off my crotchet skills and I will try to make it a new net. Will I succeed? Maybe. Do I care? No - it's too dark and cold to work outside in the evenings - why not keep my hands busy while listening to a talking book, or chatting to a friend? The bigger point - if I can crotchet a small net, I could crotchet a large net to catch fish.

Example: I built a small portable shelter for 1/2 dozen chickens a couple of decades ago. Lessons learned: 1. Regardless of what other people told me, flat roofs *don't* work in my ecosystem. 2. I'm a 110 lb female on a narrow frame. I *need* portable shelters to either have wheels, be very light, or both.

This is the sort of thing people need to be learning now, rather than waiting until they unexpectedly loose their job. But our system wants us craving instant gratification from television or the computer, instead of putting our hands to work.

SkIP is one way to inspire you to try new skills, and document your successes. There are plenty of other ways, but this is free, inclusive, accessible and available. There are no weekly Repair Cafe's in my area. The Maker Space which was a 25 min drive away, was taken over by a Cabal. So SkIP it is, unless I start something myself.

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Anne Miller

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Gordon Blair wrote:Kill it with digital fire...

This thing can only be viable because the mainstream alternative has become THAT generic and vapid.

So I have no idea what you are saying???

Invasive plants are Earth's way of insisting we notice her medicines. Stephen Herrod Buhner
Everyone learns what works by learning what doesn't work. Stephen Herrod Buhner

Beth Sqwallah

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Writer and computer scientist professor Cal Newport has some very useful thoughts and breakdown of why AI *isn’t* going to take everyone’s jobs and what the limits are on achieving super intelligence. He also (on other podcast episodes than this one which is very focused on AI questions) has good advice generally on how to get to move to the country and spend most of your time doing things you love..
https://podcasts.apple.com/de/podcast/deep-questions-with-cal-newport/id1515786216?i=1000735022877

Susan Mené

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paul wheaton wrote:

Susan Mené wrote: We all wandered down the wrong path, I guess. Just to clarify, What solutions were were you looking for? Solutions to get more people into permaculture, or skip, or ERE. or FIRE? Or was it more personal to your situation, like getting people into bootcamp? Or raising awareness of what is to come and the need for society to rapidly shift the definition of success? Or expanding permaculture communities?
My original response was suggesting that aside from working the land, both hands-on and compassion type life callings are largely robot proof. And will be needed/beneficial in all communities.

Suppose 70% of jobs are gone.

Without exploring politics and what the world will be like ... I am attempting to explore what does permaculture provide as solutions.

My brain seems thoroughly stuck in "gertitude". A humble home and a huge garden.

My brain also offers up the automatic backyard food pump.

My brain also turns to how to get land. SKIP. Bootcamp.

I am thinking that there are a dozen more things to add to this list, but I am so biased with my own stuff, maybe I cannot see it.

Thanks, Paul for clarifying.
Reading your OP over and over made me think that maybe we don't need more solutions, but ways to awaken people to "real" living and a new perspective on luxury.
Gert is a huge part--if not the best--answer. Not sayin' it to stroke your ego. This is not a situation in which one needs to need to be ringing bells or kissing rings.
But how to spread the message? In my experience, the best way to introduce the message of GERT is through through appealing to their tastebuds, stomachs, and wallets. If I talk about soil, or seed saving, or planting sprouted onions, garlic or potatoes, or the exquisite luxury of getting clean after getting filthy in the dirt, their eyes glaze over. When I give them homemade raspberry jam made with home grown and foraged berries, a bag of tomatoes or peppers, and do it again, and maybe again, then invite them to "pick their own" while visiting, their minds slowly open, questions get asked, and a few have started their journey into gardening. So, I feed people to spread the message. Feeding people in some way, sharing the harvest with food banks, or allowing some supervised gleaning, invite the local TV news team for a meal and a tour: feeding people can be used to inform and inspire interest in skip, bootcamp, Gert, permaculture, and a change in priorities.
I am living kind of like Gert; Gert in densely populated suburbia. I aspire to be full Gert. Can I grow all my own food? Nope, not yet, working on it on my shy acre. I forage, I pressure can/water bath can, I make my own bread when I want it, make "yarn" from old clothing and crochet into mediocre rugs and blankets among other skills that seem useless to the outside world. Leaning into, immersing myself, living permaculture and homesteading in place is my new career. I know where my money is if I need it.
How many times have I heard, "You know you can buy that in a store, right?".
I respond with "You know I can grow that myself, right?"
It definitely makes them think twice.

I choose...to be the best me I can be, to be the strongest me I can be, to learn the most I can. I don't know what comes next. But I'm gonna go into it balls to the walls, flames in my hair, and full speed ahead.

Joshua States

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How I feel about AI......

AI-Job.JPG

“So I'm lightin' out for the territory, ahead of the scared and the weak and the mean spirited, because Aunt Sally is fixin’ to adopt me and civilize me, and I can't stand it. I've been there before.”

Hal Schibel

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As someone with five college degrees, I will usually advise people against going to college.

The only reason I would say to go is if they want to do something very specific and you can't talk them out of it. I had something very specific in mind and could not get into it once I graduated. If I could go back in time and give myself advice, I would tell myself to go to trade school and become a carpenter. Recently I have been thinking that you should always be wary of career advice from anyone if it is not something you can act upon immediately. With how fast the world is changing, by the time you can act upon the advice, the context will have changed and it will no longer be relevant.

My main piece of advice to anyone considering college is to be wary of any institution that sells you on "feelings" rather than actual accomplishments.

I greatly enjoyed school and felt like I was accomplishing a lot because I would feel good about myself when i got my good grades and my diplomas. But when I got out into the real world, what mattered wasn't the information I thought I was learning but forgot as soon as the test was over, it was the ability to work. But even then abilities don't always matter. The hard part is getting a job without any experience. You need experience to get one of the "higher-paying" jobs, not just a degree. Some of them don't even care about a degree (including software engineering jobs). And the experience you need is usually extremely specific. Job boards did not help me at all. I only got jobs by talking to people.

One thing that drove me through school was fear. Fear of not being able to support myself. Fear of not being able to support my parents as they got older. And pride that I must be super smart and I can get the highest paying jobs no problem because I had good grades. I had an adviser early on encourage me to go into science because "I was good at math." I was not able to find a job in science. I went back to school for my second master's in 2020 due to fear that the job market was going to be tough to navigate and I wanted to expand my skills so I could cast a wider net. I did actually learn a lot from that degree program that I am using in my personal time, but I have not gotten any jobs in that field.

Earlier this year I lost my job to the return to office trend (after I had gotten permission to move out of state and have been living here for two years). Due to the fortunate financial position my husband and I are in, I have not been looking for a new one. We bought our house two years ago for much less than we could technically afford on two full-time salaries and we are actually able to afford it on one. My "job" is now finding ways to save us money, which I consider to be just as much a salary as having a job. Going to work and getting paid is just an energy exchange, and if I can funnel that energy back into my home and my family then that's pretty comparable to me going to work. The SKIP program has been awesome for this as it is helping me to set up systems on our property and is helping me to learn skills that are actively helping us save money and will continue to help us save money. Some of the projects require an investment of materials and tools that is taking some time to acquire, but the investment is worthwhile and now when I do "assignments," I have an actual physical thing that I produced instead of just a number on a piece of paper to make me feel good about my "accomplishments."

In terms of AI and automation, people will always find ways to automate the simple tasks that are not worth their time...so they can spend more of their time on what actually matters. It will definitely shake things up, but would you rather be putting effort toward a job that a computer can't do rather than a task that is pretty useless because it can just be automated? Not saying that all tasks that AI is being used for is useless, but that is one way to use it.

-Halley

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Christopher Weeks

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A lot of us in this thread are hung up on the uncertainty of AI. But that’s really not the point. College education is *already* prohibitively expensive and requires saddling oneself with an awful debt burden. If the shit is going to hit the fan, it doesn’t so much matter what it _exactly_ looks like. (Maybe AI takes our jobs, maybe politicians ruin the economy, maybe there’s wartime rationing, maybe…) Only in the rosiest imaginable of possible futures should all young people be uncritically going to college.

I think Paul’s point is that having some space and the ability to provide your own food and shelter and heat from scratch, makes it easier to get through any of the plausible futures that we’re facing. And his boot camp is one path to that.

Anne Miller

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M Ljin wrote:May I suggest building community and working with community as an alternative to jobs? ...

I think that college debt can put a pressure not only on the individual, but on the community, which loses the labor power of the young, energetic people who can help work the soil, build terraces, plant trees, and in general make efforts toward genuine progress towards a natural and regenerative future.

Wheaton Labs would be perfect for this.

Here are some threads where the Boots have told their story:

https://permies.com/t/1085/146265/dez-bootcamp

https://permies.com/t/102602/Robbie-Permaculture-Bootcamp-experience

https://permies.com/t/60/165154/Grey-Bootcamp-Journal

https://permies.com/t/268237/Story-Boot-BEL

https://permies.com/t/156408/Lara-Bootcamp-Wheaton-Labs-Experience

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Susan Mené wrote:
I am living kind of like Gert; Gert in densely populated suburbia. I aspire to be full Gert. Can I grow all my own food? Nope, not yet, working on it on my shy acre. I forage, I pressure can/water bath can, I make my own bread when I want it, make "yarn" from old clothing and crochet into mediocre rugs and blankets among other skills that seem useless to the outside world. Leaning into, immersing myself, living permaculture and homesteading in place is my new career. I know where my money is if I need it.

I am curious how you achieve this? As I said, I haven’t seen any real life examples of gert.
My understanding of the gert story is that she doesn’t need a paycheck, doesn’t need to work hard most of the year, because she just doesn’t have big expenses and can save money from selling a bit of her easily grown food. How does it work in suburbia? You mentioned growing and foraging and making rugs - how about water, power, garbage bills? Repairs to the (presumably mortgage free) house? Internet/phone bills? Transportation costs?
I am really curious: my family recently went down to one income, with a toddler I stay home with. I garden, can, cook, haul ass to use wood heat, and do various fiber arts. Seems like we are getting ahead, and then the pressure tank breaks, the wood stove’s baffle is broken, the solar panels don’t cover our electricity usage, the baby needs a hospital visit that reinforces the need for health insurance, and a dozen other little things come up.
I don’t want to suggest we are struggling - one income is enough for our current lifestyle. But gert, we aren’t even close. Either in finances or in the time we spend putting up our own food and all the rest of it. Heck, I can’t even keep the dishes done after all the cooking.
I would love to here how others manage!

Lina
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Alexandra Malecki

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I did the university path. I graduated in 3 years and had 2 full academic scholarships. I also had internships at an Engineering company every summer (2 out of 3 summers I also had a food service job on top of my internship). I graduated with <$7000 of debt that I was able to pay off within 4 months (meaning I didn't pay interest on my loans) after graduating. A BS degree in Mech Eng really paid off for me. I was able to save for a down payment and afford my first house plus rental (I purchased a duplex but I don't advise getting an FHA loan because fighting to refinance to a conventional loan was nearly impossible -- though I was successful) when I was 22 which was really helpful for building equity in the real estate world before prices for an entry-level home became out of reach for my peers. Honestly, I look around at my peers and don't know how they're supposed to make it, forget about the future of young 20s right now. A lot of my peers don't have kids and opt to travel instead of saving it because their forward outlook is so dismal. Most people I have these kind of conversations with have accepted that they will continue to work until the day they die. This is the new norm.

If someone were to have told me that SKIP was an alternative to college back when I was 18, I would NOT have considered it. I needed financial stability and independence to improve my circumstances. Plus I knew nothing about permaculture or gardening or the presence of toxic gick everywhere, etc. Also, there's no guarantee that someone will just fork over everything to someone they've never met - that wouldn't haven't worked for 18-year old me.

Things are so different now than they were when I was going to college. I use to peddle my kids' college savings accounts amongst family and friends during gift-giving events. I stopped peddling it a few years ago and my husband and I no longer contribute to it. My husband (who has a MS in MechEng) and I both feel more strongly about our kids going to trade school/apprenticeship rather than college. There are so many reasons we feel this way. Mostly because we see the impact of AI on our industry and we see the low caliber of applicants during hiring events. What's the point of a degree anymore? Of course, that's a generalization and there are exceptions.

Another tangent: my husband and I had a conversation with a freshman (family friend) who's going to a prestigious University near us. Her experience at this University only reinforced my desire to deter my kids from considering getting a degree. I'd rather not go into the details but the most troubling aspect was rampant drug access/use.

There are probably a dozen other reasons why I don't wish for my kids to get a university degree that I won't dig into.

----

Anyhow, the point I want to mention here is that the target audience for the bootcamp and SKIP are people who haven't made a college commitment yet. Once an individual goes the college route, they incur debt and it's unlikely that they'll make it out of there with as little or less debt than I accrued. I'm not sure if this is the demographic of people going to the bootcamp and it doesn't appear that it's the demographic of people doing SKIP.

I'd like to know how to create a pipeline to high school students to encourage them to go the unbeaten path. How many high school students know what permaculture is?

I'm pursuing SKIP to inherit property, check SKIP out for yourself!

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Alexandra Malecki wrote:I did the university path. I graduated in 3 years and had 2 full academic scholarships. I also had internships at an Engineering company every summer (2 out of 3 summers I also had a food service job after leaving my internship). I graduated with <$7000 of debt that I was able to pay off within 4 months (meaning I didn't pay interest) after graduating. A college degree in Mech Eng really paid off for me. I was able to save for a down payment and afford my first house plus rental (I purchased a duplex but I don't advise getting an FHA loan because fighting to refinance to a conventional loan was nearly impossible -- though I was successful) when I was 22 which was really helpful for building equity in the real estate world before prices for an entry-level home became out of reach for my peers. Honestly, I look around at my peers and don't know how they're supposed to make it, forget about the future of young 20s right now. A lot of my peers travel with their disposable income instead of saving it because their forward outlook is so dismal. Most people I have these kind of conversations with have accepted that they will continue to work until the day they die. This is the new norm.

If someone were to have told me that SKIP was an alternative to college back when I was 18, I would NOT have considered it. I needed financial stability and independence to improve my circumstances. Plus I knew nothing about permaculture or gardening or the presence of toxic gick everywhere, etc. Also, there's no guarantee that someone will just fork over everything to someone they've never met - that wouldn't haven't worked for 18-year old me.

Sounds like you did a variation of ERE - earn a professional salary for awhile, invest wisely, get land, and set up a frugal lifestyle so that the income from non-homestead sources covers your expenses. That is pretty similar to me.
What I still have not seen, is someone living on a few thousand a year because all their food comes from the land and they sell the surplus and maybe consult once a year, so that the only assets they need are the house and land, and they only need to work the homestead half time most of the year. Wish I had seen it.
It seems like in order to make that lifestyle work, the examples I have seen need some sort of external income, for security and the unexpected and expected costs that always come up.
That is why I hesitate to make a blanket statement of “don’t go to college”. Think carefully about what you are good at, and don’t go into major debt for it, sure. But the fact is, while college is not a guaranteed higher income, it is a prerequisite. If you want to earn enough to buy land then an accountant, lawyer, or engineer is going to earn it faster than a welder - assuming they are good, and can find a job. SKIP? Maybe. But that is really new, and we don’t know how many Otises will cave to family pressures, or need to sell to pay for end of life care, or decide the skipper isn’t worthy after all… and I suspect the number of otises is small compared to the number of people in the USA considering college. Plus, completing the farming portion of SKIP requires access to land and and excavator, which you might not have as a high school graduate. So that is problematic as well.
There are, of course, other ways to do it, especially if you are young, strong, and unattached. “Walden on wheels” had some great examples- the guy went 100k into debt on a useless degree, then payed it back by working on logging crews, Alaskan camps- jobs that paid ok and, crucially, included room and board in locations without opportunities to spend money. If he had done that without the college debt, he could have been well set up, if land was his dream.
It is a scary time right now. No one is sure how things will shake out with AI and the economy overall. Sadly, a lot of passive income ideas, like writing a book, making digital art, or stock photography are likely to be the first to disappear as AI products flood the market. More complex jobs that require human interaction will be later, and -I expect - skilled physical jobs will be last. But the timeline for all that? No idea.

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Ed Simpson wrote:Just my perspective here, not wishing to judge anything about the specific situation you posted on. That said, college for young people coming out of HS is still (almost) always a GOOD idea. The 'almost' means, you have to have a good answer to questions like: can I afford it (or, how will I afford it?)? do I have something truly intestesting, with reasonable practical significance, that I want to study? where do I want to go and is it a good environment at present?

Also, there is a LOT of free money out there looking for bright kids. My daughters, bright but not geniuses, were able to find money via scholarships to attend a highly regarded school, one of the top schools in their field in the world.

We paid a couple thousand a year and they acquired the rest. They spent a lot of time writing applications and essays and sending them out to all kinds of different organizations and individuals who want to give money away. No student loans, no debt at the end of 4 years. One of the girls even attended graduate school that way and graduated with money left over.

Anne Miller

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Gordon Blair wrote:

Anne Miller wrote:By the way, acting as a career choice is going away ...

Kill it with digital fire...

This thing can only be viable because the mainstream alternative has become THAT generic and vapid.

I don't know how someone would kill it with digital fire ... I don't even know what that is.

This is out of our hands because it is the films budget and the producers that make the decisions.

I don't go to movies so it is up to the movie goers as to what happens ...

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Eric Hanson

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I will add my own thoughts & experience here.

I come from the more traditional background and college was never an option—it was an inevitability. My parents paid for my (first) bachelor’s degree. I entered college with full expectations of being a professional pilot. I had even gone to the “trouble” (really, it was irresistible!) of learning to fly in my senior year of high school so that by my freshman year of college I was essentially in sophomore level classes. And in the first semester I learned that I didn’t want to be a pilot, nor did I know what I wanted to be. I eventually landed in psychology, thinking that like my father before me, any good study in liberal arts would prepare me for a wide range of career opportunities. That led to my dreadful experience in retail management which led me back to school, a second degree and teaching credentials. I loved it. My second degree was much more focused and meaningful to me because it never “had” to happen, it was entirely my choice. And I paid for it entirely with money earned from a job I really liked—my favorite part-time job by far.

I was fortunate enough to get student teachers and with them, education credits at the local university. I got my masters degree, paid for entirely by credits from having student teachers. I was very fortunate.

And I recently went back to get my last 21 credits to max out my salary which tops at Masters+24. Those credits cost me $15k, and I took them online (not ideal, but pragmatic). I made that investment up and more so even before I finished the credits (I had been “frozen” for years, so getting my first raise—+12, was a significant step. Technically I was in a PhD. Program but I had no intention of finishing. All I cared about was the credits for the money. I needed it to max out my retirement.

The takeaways

1st degree—automatic, always knew it would happen. I liked academics even when I didn’t know it. I finished the degree as a sort of self-improvement but not as a career-goal directed endeavor.

2nd degree—wow was I focused! I knew what I wanted to do because of personal failure and the desire to never repeat. While I grew tremendously and had an amazing experience at my first degree, the second degree was mine in a way my first couldn’t. And I was proud of this degree in a way that I couldn’t have my first. In many ways, it is my favorite degree.

Grad school—expected for teachers and never a second thought for me, I had amazing opportunities given a university literally less than 5 miles away and it was essentially free thanks to tuition waivers from having student teachers. And because I had NO interest in administration, I majored in history, not a more teacher friendly selection. There are MUCH easier masters degrees than history but I am an idealist, a purist. And stubborn. This degree took me 6.6 years—and a masters needs to be finished in 5 or less so I needed to get a waiver. It was all consuming. It helped to bring on my crippling insomnia. But I did it because I was never going to give up! I am most proud of this degree. My advisor told me that I was the only masters student to take the program part-time and finish.

Last few credits

Purely to go up o. The pay scale. That’s it. Nothing grandiose—I already did that. It was purely for the money and because of the pay scale, the payoff was immediate. I am now fully done with higher education—I will never earn another credit hour and I am fine with that.

I have a lot of higher education and in my case, it works. But starting out today, the costs are vastly higher than when I started. I know of students in my PhD program (that I quit) who were getting their degree as a sort of self-improvement, getting no money for doing so. I admire the spirit, but question the financial wisdom.

I might need to add more points to be concise and clarify—anything that this isn’t. But I thought my personal context mattered for any other post.

Eric

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Christopher Weeks

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I'm sort of half-assed listening through Paul's podcast and pulled up number 636 in which Paul and friends (a couple years ago) opine about the relatively low value of college. It obviously reminded me of this topic.

In case you want to check it out: https://permies.com/wiki/220475/Podcast-Permaculture-Design-Session#1872203

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I will add a few thoughts based on what I stated in my previous post about 2-3 posts prior.

A 4 year college degree today is very expensive—ferociously so for a private college or out of state college. The reasons are numerous and varied, but I can foresee universities pricing themselves out of competition with other institutions.

Community colleges offer a lot of technical, nursing and similar programs but at a vast discount compared to a four year college/university. I know that an increasing number of my students are using local community colleges as a way to cut costs.

And even high schools are getting into the mix. Many,many high schools offer Dual Credit and Advanced Placement classes. Essentially, either of these options gives students college credit but at a mere fraction of the four-year university rate.

And even within high, there is a sort of survival of the fittest happening between AP and DC Classes. AP was the older of the two. To qualify, an AP teacher must be trained in a course designed by a university board. And students must pass a test that is created by university professors. Using my AP Psychology class as an example, the university system is reluctant to let students earn college credits in high school as these will be credits that are not paid in college tuition. Therefore, universities essentially determine that if they are going to give up the credit, they will absolutely not give them up easily. AP Psychology is FAR more difficult than a typical Intro to Psychology course offered by a university.

Dual credit classes on the other hand are offered through community colleges. Technically, they are taught by community college professors, but really, they just sign off on the grade. DC classes are far easier than AP classes for the same credit. And a lot of students therefore gravitate to the easier college credit. Why not?

But if we are not talking about utilizing AP, DC, or community colleges, then a four year degree is getting more difficult to justify. And at some point I wonder if it will price itself out of competition. There is a very active set of market forces at work in higher education and the traditional four year degree is being knocked off its traditional top spot. And for a great many people, I really wonder if a four year degree is appropriate given the extreme expense. And keep in mind that this statement comes from someone with two bachelor degrees and a master’s degree. And, I am a teacher. And, my wife is a doctor. I prize education or I would be in the wrong field. But I recognize fiscal realities.

I am never going to tell a person to not get a college degree, but it’s extreme cost can be borne for only so long before something has to change.

Eric

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M Ljin

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People haven’t really talked about degrees that might be useful in a permaculture perspective, like, say, ethnobotany. If you had a degree in ethnobotany, that could give you a particularly useful perspective as a permaculturist for feeding and providing for yourself and others, and staying frugal.

Personally, I have not felt the need to seek out a degree in ethnobotany or similar subjects. Part of it is that there are so many resources available, in foraging books and furthermore online in places like the native american ethnobotany database (https://naeb.brit.org/), plants for a future (https://pfaf.org/), and the sorts of old books you used to only find in big city and university libraries (the public domain ones, historical resources, etc.) are available on Google Books (https://books.google.com/) and Internet Archive (https://archive.org/). And of course, Judson Carroll’s generous posting of edible and medicinal plant writings here on Permies (https://permies.com/u/324733/Judson-Carroll)

I have to say I prefer reading real books, books can be expensive, and the local libraries, or even whole library systems often don’t have what you are looking for.

People get to be masters in their own subjects and often accumulate personal libraries of things useful to them—flax and hemp growing and processing isn’t something you are likely to learn at most colleges. Someone I know has this old book written by an Irish author travelling to the Netherlands some three hundred years ago and writing about the local ways of processing flax and hemp, absolutely not something you’d find at any rural library.

Is there something that you can’t learn at any institution? That might be wildness, might be trueness. You cannot learn to be what you already are; you can only unlearn what comes in the way of that. It comes from remembering what no one else can see, and if no one else can see it, then they can’t talk about it. Since we are conditioned to avoid and deny that which cannot be put into words as imprecise or irrational, it is difficult to remember wildness and trueness. We are told, you should be this, you should do that. But beneath all that there is a battering of truth, a tormenting of that which is wild and true within us. If we want to be true to truth, we need to go to the places where others say, “Don’t go”; we need to speak in tongues that only we can understand. Anything done in the name of becoming is a hindrance to the remembering.

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M Lijn, Everyone,

The following is an opinion and idealistic dream of mine, a dream that at present is crashing into economics and painful decisions.

I love the idea of a university degree as they were originally created by the first universities and their evolution during the renaissance. Those universities basically only conferred one degree—a Bachelor of Arts, meaning a study of liberal arts. The idea of a degree in liberal arts was to have a significant amount of learning in a variety of disciplines. If I am remembering correctly, there were only seven subjects (mathematics, philosophy, natural philosophy—meaning science, geography, history and a couple others I just can’t remember at the moment—please chime in if you remember!).

The reason for learning a broad base of studies was to get a general idea of how the world works. Even today, those with liberal arts degrees generally have minds sufficiently flexible that learning new ideas comes easily and positing conclusions from a basic factual information comes easily. And this broad knowledge is widely adaptable.

For instance, my classroom (and the whole school) is notoriously inconsistent in its temperature. And I just loathe having my classroom being too warm. If it’s cold, I can always put on another layer. And if it’s too warm, I can only take off just so many layers. Also cold wakes up students! And there is a thermostat on the wall with a little control BUT that control is fake! It is a piece of plastic that looks like a slider but it’s just a nub molded over the face of the thermostat, giving the impression of control but no actual ability to adjust the nub in the shape of a slider. So if my room is warm (AGAIN!), I can control my thermostat, but not from the nub, instead I put a hot water bottle over the thermostat and make it think that the temperature is 150 degrees! Works like a champ!! In days past I used my old overhead projector to accomplish the same. I did something similar to water my new Venus Flytrap. I needed some container to hold water but not soak the plant. My solution was to use an old coffee pot to set the plant pot in and water through the spout.

Liberal Arts students excel about being resourceful. They look at the world not as it’s superficial face value but, but more as a set of relationships. Recognizing and utilizing relationships requires a flexibility of thought, a flexibility made stronger by the study of liberal arts.

But while this flexibility is inherently useful, and in fact required for most of the top tier careers, Liberal Arts does not prepare one well for specific skills. Increasingly, much of education is focused on developing skills, especially skills that are employable and lucrative immediately after graduation. And it’s hard to criticize that expectation, that goal for education—education for the purpose of immediate employment.

It makes me feel a little sad that education via the liberal arts is on the decline for reasons both pragmatic and economic. The skills one inherently learns through the liberal arts—critical thinking—are the very skills that are highly sought after by employers, the same skills needed for advancement and promotion, and the same skills needed in leadership and recognizing the inherent value of the product one offers (Think Kodak: Kodak invented the digital camera! Which in turn destroyed their own company! Maybe Kodak should have seen that coming and sought a way to use digital technology profitably instead of letting it destroy the company!! Critical Thinking!!).

I suspect that Liberal Arts will get the final word. The skills it promotes are in demand eternally. But the price of admission in daunting!!

Eric

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Michael Cox

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M Ljin wrote:People haven’t really talked about degrees that might be useful in a permaculture perspective, like, say, ethnobotany. If you had a degree in ethnobotany, that could give you a particularly useful perspective as a permaculturist for feeding and providing for yourself and others, and staying frugal.

Personally, I have not felt the need to seek out a degree in ethnobotany or similar subjects. Part of it is that there are so many resources available, in foraging books and furthermore online in places like the native american ethnobotany database (https://naeb.brit.org/), plants for a future (https://pfaf.org/), and the sorts of old books you used to only find in big city and university libraries (the public domain ones, historical resources, etc.) are available on Google Books (https://books.google.com/) and Internet Archive (https://archive.org/). And of course, Judson Carroll’s generous posting of edible and medicinal plant writings here on Permies (https://permies.com/u/324733/Judson-Carroll)

How many degree level people does the world need in ethnobotany? I suspect that the number is small because, as you imply, the knowledge is readily accessible to the interested lay-person through books and other resources. Degrees shine on the level of an overall society when they are deep, and that deep expertise brings special insights that are valuable to a society in a way that is uniquely distinctive. But even then, the utility of having more people with the same narrow expertise is limited.

My feeling is that many modern degrees frequently don't equip students with sufficiently distinctive skill sets to make them attractive in the job market, and/or "useful" to society based on those skill sets.

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Nancy Reading

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When I was at the equivalent of high school, it was sort of expected for brighter students to aspire to a university education. Fairly unusually both my parents had degrees (they met at university) so there was also a family expectation for higher education. At the time higher eductation was virtually free in the UK. If I were to be in the same situation now I would probably not take a degree. If you don't know where you are going, how can you know whether you are heading off in the wrong direction? I ended up with a chemistry degree (never used it - and science technicians don't need a degree to have a job, or they didn't then...) I got employment in an automotive firm and did a second degree in mechancal engineering, which gave me a professional engineer ticket. I then started an Engineering doctorate (research based) but hated academia, so dropped out and ended up with a MSc in engineering business management (never used it professionally). Both the engineering degrees were supported by the company I worked for. I worked for a few more years in a couple of different company before 'dropping out' from the mainstream; we didn't quite get the early retirement bit, but I now run my own little grocery store and earn a bit less than the minimum wage (although there are side benefits

). The rambling point I was trying to make is that I never used any of my degrees. Yes they got me a foot in the employment door, but there are other ways of achieving that - especially if you are spending four years of your life doing it!
It was quite common at the time for people to take a 'year out' after school, often with a promise of a university place, but sometimes just to resit exams to get better grades. People used to travel, volunteer, grow up a bit.... I think that would be what I would do now (if I knew what I do now too). Volunteer somewhere worthwhile, that would teach me something useful, and help me find my direction in life.
Do I know what I want career I want yet? No, but I'm having fun learning about life still.... maybe I can persuade my husband that it would be cheaper to retire properly than carry on working.....

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