Spending more to save money

So the recent fear based shortages have finally persuaded me to spend more and save in the long run (money and the planet).  I speak of toilet paper.  Just ordered some cloth butt wipes aka family cloth from Etsy...and the hubby us talking about installing a bidet!

My Dad always said “you get what you pay for”, and he insisted on the best quality although he didn’t buy much. He still had an old WWII woolen army sweater well into the eighties, and he loved how warm it was and how the great quality wool held up over the years. His theory was that if you get things that last and you use them a lot, you can buy much less. If you buy cheap and it falls apart quickly, it’s wasted money.
I tend to follow his lead and when we bought our first house, I remember going to the library to look at old Consumer Reports, so that if I bought anything for our home I could get things with the highest ratings.

I am going back to making my own clothes. Quality fabrics, made from sustainable sources are challenging to find and expensive. But I can make clothes that last for years and mend them as needed. I have made quilts for years and repaired them as the begin to all apart. I made a quilr.for my mother 50 years ago using an old wool blanket as the batting. I still use it on our guest bed when we have a friend sleeping over. I also weave our own towels and yes weaving cotton and wool are ridiculously expensive but the towels last for many many years. There is a reason people used to have only one shirt!

I used to travel a good deal. My wife assigned me the task of searching the junk shops for bolts of quality cloth.  If one shops carefully, one can get very high quality cloth for pennies on the yard.  I would hit around 70 shops a year. Those shops would yield  maybe 3 or 4 purchases.

Nicole Alderman wrote:=This thing is awesome. I've had the older model for over 2 years, and it's still working great. It slow cooks, pressure cooks (quick & easy bone broth, here I come!), makes yogurt (mine doesn't but the newer ones do), steams, makes stew, cooks rice. It's also stainless steel (unlike most pressure cookers/slow cookers, which are coated with teflon or made of ceramic of unknown origins).

It's also great because it doesn't require the user to know anything about pressure cooking or PSI, etc. I throw my food in there, push the closest related button (soup, rice, beans, chicken, etc). It then shows me a recommended cooking time, which I can change (and usually don't, and it's usually works great) and then starts pressurizing. It's really easy, energy and heat efficient, and is one machine to do many jobs. I love mine!

Yeh, I have the similar MealthyPot and these do work great. The first meal I made was a pot of beans with Ham Hocks & Onions included and that came out GREAT! SO, I'm an old dude living alone and if I don't know what to make I just go to my Folder of SAVED PDF MEALTHY RECIPES and scan down the list to see what might be appetizing for that day. Both Mealthy and InstantPot have on-line sources for all kinds of recipes. HEY, I even made a cheesecake in mine one time. It wasn't quite done as when opened up from the spring pan it collapsed on one side, however, done enough to eat.

If I "spend more" by purchasing from makers or producers in my own community, I choose in favor of quality - every time.  If I have to seek further for that quality, I will still choose small, independent makers or producers even when the price point is higher.

For me, that's the difference between being a consumer and being a human; being just a bit of demographic data that drives algorithms and fuels marketing strategies - or taking part in a larger, human ecosystem that nurtures skills, sustains traditional wisdom, encourages innovation and turns "demand" into something deeper and more meaningful.  

I understand that classic economics relies on terms like "Supply" and "Demand" for it metrics and theory, and I honor that science for its value in debating legislative and social policy.  But I can make my individual choices in such a way that what I buy isn't just about what I spend. What I save isn't just about my money.  

Sermon over. That's all just the longer version of what Mother always told me: "We're too poor to buy cheap."

Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote: ... I had my money in my bank a lot longer, making babies for me.

The following is for US citizens. Other countries have different laws and regs.

Finance

The best rate I can find is about 1%apy for a normal savings account ($5000 deposit). The best 5yr CD rate I could find was .65%
The inflation rate per the US dept of Labor is 1.2% link. As backstop 10yr treasuries are yielding .829% as a proxy for inflation.

At best you are breaking even. Inflation is eating the 'babies' sad to say. At worst you are going negative by small measures. I am not against saving. Everyone should have sufficient liquid assets to cover an emergency. How much is up to the individual.

The reality is it would be better to spend wisely as this thread emphasizes. Eg: Lets say I am able to acquire quality boots at $100. With resoling and repair they last a decade. Well you could expect to pay $125 or more for a replacement pair at the end of year 10. Had I deposited the $100 and earned .8%/yr at the end of year 10 I would have $108. So buying the quality boot now yields me better earning value, I use it now, I deferred the inflation curve for the 10 years, etc. The federal reserve has trashed savings in a desperate effort to get the velocity of money up to keep the economy moving.

Now saving monies for the new car when it is needed is still wise. However people may have to redefine savings. Putting it into the bank may not be the best way to save. My suggestion is find some producer like function for the money that produces a return better than what the banks offer that is higher than the inflation rate. When you find it, what is the risk factor associated with it? Always keep that in mind. That could be a side gig, a part time business, buy more bee hives, etc.

US Banks

Be aware that any money you put in a US bank, checking, savings, CDs means YOU become an unsecured creditor to that bank. As such its no longer YOUR MONEY, by US bank law.webpage Essentially you are last in line to get your money back if things go South. An though FDIC is a good thing they only have 10% reserves to cover the trillions in unsecured deposits. Another words FDIC itself could go bankrupt if things got really bad.

Banks are are useful financial tool. But they are not risk free.

Conclusion

A man may pay any price for his first shirt, but hardly ever for the second.

Things are not normal at the current time as in years past. Hence we need to adjust --

* If you need it, buy it. But it must be essential, productive or leverages value to something already owned. No toys.
* Eliminate debt. In the current environment it is the fastest way to 'save'.
* 'Save' skills. It is the fastest way to leverage tasks to make yourself more productive.
* Watch what is going on globally. That indicates trends that affect you personally.
* Stock those things you habitually use.

Personal example:

Our family has gone on a canning/drying/freezing binge this year. More so than we normally do. The reason is two fold. The Chinese had a massive crop failure this year and a another round of swine disease. That means that the Chinese will bid up the market in grains and pork worldwide. By the way, SmithField the largest pork processor in the US is owned by the Chinese now. Selected food prices may not normalize for the next two years as a result. Locking in some of the price now will save us money in the short run.

Be safe, be wise.

Barbara Kerschner wrote:I am going back to making my own clothes. Quality fabrics, made from sustainable sources are challenging to find and expensive. But I can make clothes that last for years and mend them as needed. I have made quilts for years and repaired them as the begin to all apart. I made a quilr.for my mother 50 years ago using an old wool blanket as the batting. I still use it on our guest bed when we have a friend sleeping over. I also weave our own towels and yes weaving cotton and wool are ridiculously expensive but the towels last for many many years. There is a reason people used to have only one shirt!

I wish I had your talent to make clothes. That is one task I have always hated with a passion and never been good at. Give me two boards, a saw and a hammer and I can MacGiver something useful. A bolt of fabric, not so much.
My lazy solution for clothing is to go to Goodwill. These clothes and shoes were often good quality the first time around. So the shoes are a bit scuffed and the shirts have had better days. At 72, I'm a bit scuffed as well and my better days are behind me, so everything matches now. I just give these clothes a second life.

Another one for the list: <a href="https://wiggys.com/">Wiggy's</a> coats and sleeping bags. American made from American materials by an old-school manufacturer. They used to make great boots too. The insulation they use is amazing. Definitely check them out. Their stuff lasts.

I make a lot of smoothies and found that every six months I would need to replace my blender. It always seemed to be the plastic part that would break in the "all metal shaft". I spent wa more than usual to buy a Vitamix blender. The only problem was that when we remodeled our kitchen twelve years ago, the white Vitamin base no longer went with the kitchen. A couple of years ago, I  found a black Vitamix at a garage sale for $5 and gave the white one to our daughter. It is now about 16 years old and still works great as does the black one which is 15 years old (manufacturers date by serial number).

I have bought a lot of tools at garage sales and I think that the older ones that were made in the USA are better than the ones made in China that you find today. I also like Finnish and Swedish steel tools for high quality.

We have a society where consumerism and planned obsolescence are king. The old adage "you get what you pay for" is partially at play here: You do not *always* get what you are paying for, even when you spend a lot: Many of us have made purchases thinking that "It would last longer" and got disappointed.
We are at every commercial pushed to buy, buy, buy what we truly may not need. And I put TV dinners and everything made of plastic in this category. Yes, they are convenient, and we will once in a while just "doctor a store bought pizza". But that is not a habit. Just a little treat, once in a while. Paying for "convenience" is not good for our wallets [or for our health either].  When you think about what you do when you buy "on installments", what are you paying for, essentially?
We are getting the exact same product as the person who pays for all of it up front. So, essentially, we are purchasing "convenience". And we are paying through the nose for it. "
Like Dad used to say: "Neither a borrower nor a lender be".
This "convenience" money allows every insurance agent to live off of it: Raise a family, buy cars, vacations etc.  So when we pay on Installment, we also pay for all these folks' expenses.
It may not be very charitable, but the system in which we live has allowed a lot of 'parasites' to live off of our labor: They do not "produce" goods that make our lives better. Instead they live off of our wages, our earnings.
We now have a lot of folks living off of credit, paycheck to paycheck, which puts them at serious risk if the economy should tank or the grid should go down.
I was chastised in a previous post for keeping my money in a Credit Union until I could afford to purchase up front and without strings attached. It was argued that in the time I would have enough to make the purchase, my interest at the bank would not grow as fast as inflation and that inflation would "eat my babies" (I think was the phrase). There is a kernel of truth in that.
Well, yes: If because a person is not in the habit to save money it will take them years to "afford" a good car, tools etc. Yes, the inflation would negate any savings in the long run. That is true, especially if you buy *a lot* of things on credit: You always drag this ball and chain.
But saving money is a habit we should all have to "save for a rainy day", just like you brush your teeth every day, take care of your possessions, shower and wash clothes. I was born in a modest home and I was a public School teacher for 26+ years, so I was not exactly born with a silver spoon in my mouth, or unnatural abilities. 2 kids, 2 marriages but I could face a $400.00 emergency if I had to, [contrary to a majority of folks in this country from what I hear]. I didn't marry wealth either.
Except for my first car, I have bought every car "up front", and usually brand new. That is 6 cars in 50 years that I bought personally without using "credit".
At age 72, we own a home and dependencies, 3 cars, 2 motorcycles and have enough money in the bank to be comfortable until we die. But we make a point to not use "credit" to buy "convenience". Dentists, plumbers, electricians, helpers of all stripes are paid on the day of service. [Why should they have to wait to get paid? I'd rather pay them immediately, as they are directly responsible for making my life better, even if it pinches, than give some of it to lending institutions].
Last year, we paid over $4,800 for a new floor and $1,800 for a new water heater. Again, we paid up front.
Also, and more to the point on this post, we don't mind paying a little more for quality, and also, which was not mentioned: If we can't afford it up front, we do without until we can afford it.
Sometimes, we'll "McGiver" a solution [Like my honey extractor or my cider press] and decide an item wasn't worth buying in the first place. During this time that we do without, we study  what is for sale.
Delaying gratification vaccinates us against "impulse buying".
I remember mom telling me: "It is not the expensive car you buy [even on credit] that will bankrupt you. It is the ice cream, going out to eat very day, buying stuff "because you have a coupon for it". So much money is frittered away on small expenses that we didn't think through, and when the big expense comes, we are without".
That is what being thrifty is all about. [and that is why I love Permies].

I love what Cécile Stelzer Johnson has to say about using not using credit, or if you do it must be very judiciously.

In my opinion, those plastic cards are what is ubiquitously wrong with the world today - want it, buy it, worry about how to pay for it later.  On what planet does one use these to pay for a vacation, clothes, toys or other silliness when they cannot pay the bill when it comes due and then must carry a debt?  For myself, I always reserved those for emergencies - repairing a necessary piece of equipment etc.

As to loans in general, unless for land/home purchase - a mortgage - this needs to be seriously considered and proven a NEED not a want.  I would possibly consider a student loan for education a need (although I think saving for this is ideal), or the purchase of a new vehicle (again, saving is ideal, but sometimes TSHTF), or to repair something like a failed roof...honestly, after that, folks should NEVER use credit in any form, unless they have a guaranteed income to service it.

Then I married, an accountant (in a previous career), who insists on the plastic cards being used for everything so we can get "cash back" (or in my world, so we can be tracked and a dossier filled on how we spend money, but that is for a different thread!); granted they never carry a balance, but frankly, I no longer have the tiniest clue how much money has been spent and how much is left, and that bothers me immensely.  But it bothers my spouse more to not have nice detailed monthly statements, and it is predominantly my spouses pension we live off, so, I very reluctantly acquiesced.

Not to pick on them too badly, but I think Harbor Freight's cheap tools are a good example of this.

There are great tools at a cheap price:
for example, their screw-handle bar clamps
even their free tape measure is, IMO, fantastic and comparable to a Stanley FatMax

There are junk tools at a cheap price:
I got their ultracheap pittsburgh screwdrivers, knowing they would be terrible at driving screws but thinking I could hammer on them and stuff without feeling bad.  I tried it and the handle broke off on the first blow.  They weren't even good for that!

There are tools you have to fiddle with at a cheap price:
Their Chicago heat gun has been okay but I've had to replace the switch.
Their electrical fish tape was good but the plastic had so much sharp flashing that I had to sand the entire surface before using or risk getting cut.

---

I think it comes down to not just the "right tool for the job", but the right quality of tool for the job.

My dad (a retired mechanic) owns a small fortune in name brand Snap-on tools.  For me, as a part-time tinkerer that wouldn't make economic sense - nor does getting the cheapest junk wrenches that will break when I look at them sideways (I live some distance from town and can't afford countless trips to replace things).  Somewhere in between makes sense for me.

Others have talked about lifetime clothespins, which is great, but I lose clothespins constantly, so that doesn't make sense for me.  For me, the cheaper the better on that one.

Cheap tools have a limited place on my homestead.  If I am in a situation where the tool is likely to be damaged or lost,  I will go for the cheap one.  For example, working on my cistern hand pump calls for a cheap wrench.  

John F Dean wrote:Cheap tools have a limited place on my homestead.  If I am in a situation where the tool is likely to be damaged or lost,  I will go for the cheap one.  For example, working on my cistern hand pump calls for a cheap wrench.  

Yep. I think we all have these tools we bought when maybe we didn't have enough money or were too young to know better or were 'gifted' one. I know I have some. Or just plain old tools that were "rode hard and put up wet" as they say. My husband turned me on to "having the right tool to do the job", and even a little bit better than what you need: When machinery is operating close to its maximum range, it ages faster too.
The main problem with my cheap tools is that they will manage to break down just when you absolutely need them the most [and don't have a "spare" handy]. That is when the most mild mannered retired teacher will resort to speaking French in a very loud voice!
I hate to throw tools that still have a little bit of life in them, so yeah, I have a few "spares", but if I have a great tool and a "spare", I still find it difficult to use the spare. After a while, I think: "Why am I keeping this  @#$%^&&^$#!!! piece of junk! It is not paying rent, so...
That is when I will gift it to someone just starting out. [Not a great gift but if a young kid doesn't have anything, it is better than nothing.] Such was the case for my first 2 post hole diggers. You know: The ones you plant, then spread and lift.
Repeat. Gosh. what a piece of junk! Why do they even make those?
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/truper-hercules-pattern-fbg-post-hole-digger-ca-38f-1433160?store=194&cid=Shopping-Google-Organic_Feed-Product-1433160&cid=Shopping-Google-LOB-Local_Feed&utm_medium=Google&utm_source=Shopping&utm_campaign=LOB&utm_content=Local_Feed&gclid=Cj0KCQjwmPSSBhCNARIsAH3cYgZKS8DcR9MbWEULLR7DzcSp6Ngc3xm5LY1bgsgvxVeooPPWXEQvdkEaAnXQEALw_wcB

I progressed to the rotating screw, a manual one that you turn then lift. Easier, although you cannot make a hole very close  to an immovable object because you don't have the clearance to turn it.
https://www.lewiscontractorsales.com/seymour-s500-industrial-iwan-post-hole-auger-adjustable-6-7-8.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwmPSSBhCNARIsAH3cYgb_3sUtqbSaXr5wBzluBDcOiO8p8O89KMMCcfY6xbIvN7zEVEcuPjMaAj6IEALw_wcB

Finally, I settled on the little battery operated Ryobi: You can get close, it will dig quite a  few holes before it runs out of power [Which is usually when I run out of steam as well!]
https://www.homedepot.com/p/RYOBI-ONE-HP-18V-Brushless-Cordless-Earth-Auger-with-6-in-Bit-with-4-0-Ah-Battery-and-Charger-P2930VNM/315205052
Just go very slow: You don't want to catch a root or a rock with that one! It will throw you.

r ranson wrote:I hate shopping, I hate shopping more than I hate just about anything else in the whole world, except perhaps eggplant - that stuff is just not edible to me.  My parent's taught me not to use the word 'hate' as it's a super-strong and powerful emotion.  I HATE shopping!

{Snipped for brevity}

So there you have it.  My style of frugality: Hate shopping, tranform consumption into production, spend more.  


It works for me, but I'm wierd.  It probably won't work for anyone else.  ...  then again, this whole 'buy for life' movement I keep seeing is very much my style.  

Good thread:
I'm too poor, to buy cheep. And I too dislike eggplant. I think we'd get along fine.
John

K Eilander wrote:I think it comes down to not just the "right tool for the job", but the right quality of tool for the job.

My dad (a retired mechanic) owns a small fortune in name brand Snap-on tools.  For me, as a part-time tinkerer that wouldn't make economic sense - nor does getting the cheapest junk wrenches that will break when I look at them sideways (I live some distance from town and can't afford countless trips to replace things).

I think you're quite right when you advise to get the right quality tool for the job... right tool of right quality.

Here's something else I take from your post, K. Your dad bought Snap-on wrenches. Snap-on tools are among the best (some would say the best) you can buy. So you can keep this in mind when you're in a second-hand store, pawn shop, or yard sale. Sure, the seller may realize the top quality and be asking a substantial used price, but it'll be less than buying retail — and you'll make a beneficial investment.

So it's helpful to make a point of learning which brands of various sorts of tools are high quality, so you'll recognize those when you come across them second-hand.

I don't have a lot to add to this post but I just wanted to boost it because it's absolutely gold!

I, too, hate shopping and have learned in the last couple of years that it's better to get something of good value and spend a bit more if it's good quality.

One area where we have done this is vehicles. I put alerts on Facebook marketplace (and Kijiji) and look for certain makes that my brother-in-law says are very good quality. (He loves to research consumer websites for different things.) Then, we carefully look through the marketplace and consider all the variables that are important to us. We have both negotiated the seller down and are only willing to pay what we have saved up for the vehicle.

Lately, we have been blessed with two very good deals on vehicles. I know people who insist on new cars every three years but we got vehicles that we want to last us the next ten years. We spent money at the front but it's worth. Our last vehicle was a Nissan Rogue and we are still using it at over 450,000 km.

I love doing that for furniture, too. I try to look for a good few months on the marketplace and then get ready to pounce on a deal when it comes up.

I think the barrier you mention between buying for life and buying what you can afford in the moment is something a lot of people struggle with. It's hard to make a long-lasting purchase if you can't afford it and other necessities. I think Brenna Quinlan said it well with this graphic: "Only spend on things that help you spend less." Of course buying quality shoes falls under this, but that's not accessible to everyone. Purchasing a bike to save on gas, buying tools to repair your possessions, and learning to grow your own produce to save money on what's expensive at the store are more available ways for people to be frugal.

I think it was in early 2020 that I bought a couple pairs of Alaskan Hardgear cargo pants from Duluth Trading Company. To be clear, they were on sale for in the $20 range.  I wear them virtually daily, and they still look new.  This was a few years ago, so I might be a tad off on the price ….but not by much.    I have seen these pants listed in the $80 range, so this is a company that is is worth waiting for their sales.

There has been a few times where spending the extra money has paid out with longevity of the item. Heirloom quality I like to call it. Something I can pass on!

Estwing has been a solid brand for hammers and other tools. Have had great luck and can beat on the tools without failure. (I need to add them to the tool review grid)

Carhartt K87 pocket t-shirts are a staple in my wardrobe. They fit and feel comfortable. They are mostly 100% cotton, except a few specific colors, and they hold up to abuse well. I work in an industrial setting with high humidity, chemicals, and machinery. I'm getting to the point that I have a week and a half of shirts in a rainbow of colors. I have even had success tie dying them! You can usually get them on sale for $10 where I am at but other times you are paying more than a competitors shirt.

Makita Gas Chainsaws have been a hell of an investment for me. I have a bunch of buddies that run Stihl and Husqvarna for their falling saws but I decided to do something a bit different. When I was a volunteer, we had Makita branded saws on our fire truck and we used them all the time. These things take a beating but run great. I spent the extra money to get something above a homeowner grade and this thing is a beast. It sits more than I use it now that I have smaller electric saws, but if I need power it has always delivered.  

Nicole Alderman wrote:
And, I think these are the lifetime guarantee clothespins that Rachel is talking about: Extreme Clothespins via Amazon. I got a set of them for Christmas, and they seem very durable and wonderful. They come in different colors, too, and the stainless steel ones are $22/20 clothespins. They really pin clothes to the line!

Ooh! I have a clothesline that came with a bunch of old clothespins. Some work, some not so much. I might pick up a few of these this summer.

Hurrah, I am not the only one! (How have I never seen this thread before?!?!)

r ranson wrote:I hate shopping, I hate shopping more than I hate just about anything else in the whole world, except perhaps eggplant - that stuff is just not edible to me.  My parent's taught me not to use the word 'hate' as it's a super-strong and powerful emotion.  I HATE shopping!

(Now we need to have a contest. I bet I hate shopping more than you. How can we test? )
      As a seven year old, the darkest torture I could undergo was accompanying my mother to the grocery store. It was not optional, and it was weekly. My opinion on this torture has not changed, although sadly now I'm the mom that has to drag a 7 year old along...

r ranson wrote: I'm not rich.  My income is well below the poverty line for my country.  Even worldwide income, I don't think I make "middle class."  I know a bit about saving money.  Hating shopping is the first step.  

This is my life! And yes, that is a huge part of the reason why for me too! I have a middle class upbringing and aspirations, but as a housewife married to a local truck driver, we are below the poverty line more and more as the days (and dollar values) go by.

r ranson wrote: Transform your leisure (consumer) time into a productive (producer) time of day and make items you can use and/or sell.  

My mother is a supreme model of this, and she is the reason I have had any success in doing this. Thanks, Ma!

r ranson wrote: So there you have it.  My style of frugality: Hate shopping, tranform consumption into production, spend more. It works for me, but I'm weird.  It probably won't work for anyone else.  ...then again, this whole 'buy for life' movement I keep seeing is very much my style.  

"Weird" works so well in Permaculture and everything regenerative, productive, and admirable. Cheers! Thank you so much for this thread.

Does any of this 'spending more to save money' work with books, I wonder? I DON'T hate shopping for books, either in a bookshop or especially online.

Consume words, produce words...yes, I would like to write more. But it is much easier to read the words than write the words!

Library card, borrow books, brows, then only buy the good ones.

Rachel Lindsay wrote:Does any of this 'spending more to save money' work with books, I wonder? I DON'T hate shopping for books, either in a bookshop or especially online.

Consume words, produce words...yes, I would like to write more. But it is much easier to read the words than write the words!

I find books so expensive these days... I 100% prefer a library card. Our state's library system is set up so that if any library in the state has the book, they will mail it to my local library (at no cost to me). There are very few books that I've wanted to read that I couldn't get my hands on for free.

I would only buy books I know I'm going to use for reference. And then definitely look at used copies first!

I am maybe a little "over the top'" when it comes to being ecologically minded, so a lot of what I do and purchase goes through that filter.  When I inherited my mom's homestead back in 2001, I recalled her paying at least 5K a year for fuel oil to heat the place.  Although, she had quite a bit of work done to insulate and button it up, it has always been a drafty old farmhouse. Paying that much for something that was damaging the environment and where the money was going overseas to fund another country's wealth just seemed wrong, and so I immediately started looking for a more sustainable solution.  That's when I found out about geothermal.  Yes, it cost me 10K for the well to be dug and another 10K for the system to be installed, but after about four or five years, I was basically flush.  Yes, there is the electric bill that runs the pump, and in Jan./Feb. it can be quite high ($400 which is everything electric) but nothing close to the 5K for the year that my mom had had to spend.  
With the found money, I purchased solar.  Same deal: spend money to make money.  That has been paid off for years now, and my heat and electric are free at this point.  I didn't stop there; I drive electric, so my transportation is free. By the way, the geothermal cools in the summer, with a much reduced electric usage.  Fuel oil didn't do that.
All of my tools are electric: snowblower, ride-on and push mowers, etc. My one electric bill covers it all! I do hang out my laundry, saving money or usage there, too.
I spent a fair amount of money on planting out my permaculture paradise and on the equipment to process it all, but that was a one-time expenditure back in 2020, and now, everything I bring in is free. (I have at least 50 different kinds of fruit as well as a large vegetable garden.)   I have 50 quarts of strawberries in the freezer, many quarts of canned grape juice, quince, blueberries, etc. I have loads of mushrooms and asparagus.  Just yesterday, someone was offering free canning jars.  I drove five minutes away and picked up four boxes of various sizes. That haul would have cost me $40-$50 bucks had I bought them new.  I've gotten most of my jars that way.
With all of that savings, I am still frugal, and when my refrigerator died a few weeks ago, it was really nice to have all of the back-up equipment that I do.  I had the dehydrator drying currants and the freeze-dryer drying strawberries.  I fermented a head of cauliflower, cabbage and carrots.  I canned the quince and made a batch of rhubarb wine to make room in the freezer for other stuff that would have perished otherwise. The rest fit into a mini-fridge that I'd had in my classroom about a decade ago.  Fortunately, it still ran. It had been in the barn for quite some time and then when I had a sunroom built, I brought it in as a plant stand in order to protect it.
Many years ago, I'd joined a local gym, but I really hated that scene.  I used the pool and then would take a sauna as my reward for going!  When I had the sunroom built, I planned a spot for a three person sauna. With all of the work required outside, I realized that I didn't need to go somewhere to "work out," I was getting plenty of exercise just maintaining the property.  Another huge savings...and I can take a sauna whenever I want!  There is nothing lovelier than before taking a shower, to be in the sauna while looking out at the snow falling, and not have to be with others while doing so.  
I sew a lot of my own clothes, I quilt and sell enamel jewelry at craft fairs.  I make many gifts this way, rather than buy, and I like to donate extra food that I don't need to the local food shelf.  I think it's important to give my extra to those who have little.  It's good Karma!  Friends and neighbors are thrilled when I give them a quart of strawberries or a bunch of asparagus.  When all of my fruit trees start to produce, I will be swimming in extra food.  Of course, I will make dried apple rings, etc., but it has always been my intention to "share the wealth!"

Linda Secker wrote:My first pair of darn tough socks arrived today cost £10 and another £5 delivery so ...ouch.... but I've got them on and they feel lovely!!!

I always have cold feet, year round, and increasingly, I find my feet are getting tired and feel bruised on the bottom.

I'm hoping the wool construction and the padding on the bottom are gonna change my life!!

So thanks for the suggestion!

Linda

Hi Linda, it’s been 8 years.  How are those Darn Tough socks?


I bought my first pairs in about 2018, love them, and they are about ready for replacement

Rachel Dee wrote:
Another thing that we do - cloth diapers. $500-600 for a full set for a kid for 2 years. Disposable is $2000 through those same years, but at $25 per pack at a time. One diaper is $25 when using cloth. We got lucky and were given 3 sets, so I didn't have to buy anything new for my first kid. With this new baby, I'm starting to buy one at a time, even though I'm just 4 months pregnant.

Just curious - were the first child’s diapers not usable after 2 years?

My family used the cotton trifold and flat diapers. They kept them, and gave them to my sister, then to me. I have finally had a number of them wear out, but they certainly survive multiple kids.
However, we also have the new all in one style diapers for daycare. The hemp/cotton and bamboo ones got horribly stained, and used some bleach in desperation that degraded the fabric. Much as I dislike it, the synthetic pocked diapers do not stain so badly, and have held up better. But still not nearly as well as tje old fashioned cotton.

Being on a fixed income, the wife and I are very choosy about buying needed items.  We research the item thoroughly, read reviews, check prices, etc.  

Prices matter, but I have found that most of the time if you purchase a better quality item for a bit more $$ it will last much longer.

I have a tool trailer, (several decades of construction work) full of tools.  I was looking for something just the other day and realized that I had several tools that were broken, waiting for me to repair them.  Those broken tools are all cheap tools that I had purchased many years ago when I needed something NOW, not later, for a job.  All of my good working tools did cost me much more $$.

We have a large family and most live close by.  Need something that we all can use?  Yep, we go together on buying it.  Pressure washer, trailers, etc.

There is a credit card with our name on it, but seldom used.  More for emergency than anything else.  Home, property, vehicles, all paid in full, no personal debt.

Responding to Barbara Simoes’ “share the wealth “

Good job!  I installed self sufficient solar electric and planted fruit trees almost 20 years ago.  If I hadn’t had to move away, I’d would be in your situation.  But no matter who owns the solar electric system, it is still harvesting energy.😊

When my children were small, spending the most possible time as a resident and present parent meant spending as little time as possible at work.

I bought rolled oats in a 25 or 50 pound bag.  (Before I knew about phytic acid).  But I did the same with dried beans.  And then soaked and canned them as beans and as soup with onions, pork etc.  That meant I was also not having to recycle packaging.  If I was doing the canning in the winter when the house needed heating, I was also warming us.

I figured I could give away half the bulk bag, and still come out ahead.  I don’t remember how much I did give away, but I had friends also living frugally.

To have enough to share, to feel satisfied with and grateful for what I have, to raise “my” own children, these are my “high standards of living”

My cloth diapers certainly lasted through more than the first child.  I had the flat ones, probably trifolds, with the middle third padded.  I had the single layer which I folded.  They were more versatile.  Even with an 8 or 9 pound newborn, the prefolded ones still required folding.

I can’t imagine anything other than cotton for diapers.  Hung on the line the sun kept them pretty white.  (Washed with some unscented conventional detergent plus the occasional bit of bleach.

Are there more pigments added to baby food?  I never fed commercial baby food, i had a baby food grinder.  The baby ate what I ate.

Staining was never a problem, though as I write this, I remember that after I rinsed/peeled, scraped the poop off, the diapers went into a bucket of water with some borax and or washing soda to wait for the full load, or until I had time, or I was close to running out🤣.

Also, though I dried them on the line, I did sometimes give them a tumble in the dryer to soften them and remove the lint.

I feel so much empathy for young mothers today.  I grew up seeing women washing line drying and folding diapers.  It was what I always thought I would do.

There is so much cultural indoctrination against cloth diapers and how terribly disgusting it is, that it’s going hard against the grain to do cloth diapers.  Those dryer sheets and fabric softeners and fragrances in laundry products decrease the absorption, and contribute to skin rashes.

Washing cloth diapers are really no big deal!  

My pears and Concord grapes are at least twenty years old; I think some of the apple trees and rhubarb out back are original to the homestead (1850's and still producing fruit!  I, too, buy dry beans in bulk.  I use a pressure cooker to cook them, which saves a lot of time when cooking.  I just started canning this past year, but I will definitely be canning some beans this winter.  I am wanting to eat much more of a plant-based diet, and having some "slow food" be "fast food" would definitely make that easier.  
I, too, like the idea of less packaging.  With composting and the like, I've found that I only have to bring my garbage and recycling about once every seven months! One bag of garbage and one bin of recycling.  It's become kind of like a contest for myself to try to go even longer than the last time! I do crush cans and stack like containers to fit more in! Just this morning I made another batch of yogurt using the dehydrator, and I will save the gallon milk container to start seeds in late winter.  If I buy something online, I use the cardboard boxes out back to help feed the mushrooms or to tamp down the uninvited weeds in my corner dump spot/brush pile. (It's hidden behind evergreens that I planted about thirty years ago on the hypotenuses of the back corners on my one acre lot.)  
I compost most paper products and return junk mail to the post office for them to recycle; it's a pet peeve of mine to get all of this unsolicited junk mail and then have to pay to have it gone.  It's another pet peeve that so many paper products are coated with plastic.  I used to throw Truvia sweetener packets in the compost until I discovered all of them are coated with plastic...why??? I won't be purchasing them anymore. I've tried growing stevia so that I could make my own 'Sweet Drops" but have never been too successful. I do make a lot of salves, tinctures and capsules from things I grow, though. It gives me great pleasure to be able to give a lot of it away to friends.  It gives me a thrill when I go to the local co op and see a tiny vial of the same products going for $20+ a pop!  I planted a Hawthorn tree and harvest not only wine cap mushrooms for eating but Turkey Tail for medicinal reasons.  I season and saute the wine caps and then freeze dry them for soups and the like throughout the rest of the year. The hawthorn lowered my blood pressure enough that I was able to cut the pharmaceuticals by half.  Plantain and Calendula salve is some of the best healing skin treatment I have ever used. By purchasing a few vanilla beans and some cheap vodka, I make my own vanilla extract for a fraction of the cost and do so a quart at a time!
I love finding ways to make quality products and not have to spend money on the middle man.  I used to make my own bread and even Grape nuts, but I really am trying to cut back on simple carbs, and it's easier just not to have it around.  

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Responding to Barbara Simoes’ “share the wealth “

Good job!  I installed self sufficient solar electric and planted fruit trees almost 20 years ago.  If I hadn’t had to move away, I’d would be in your situation.  But no matter who owns the solar electric system, it is still harvesting energy.😊

When my children were small, spending the most possible time as a resident and present parent meant spending as little time as possible at work.

I bought rolled oats in a 25 or 50 pound bag.  (Before I knew about phytic acid).  But I did the same with dried beans.  And then soaked and canned them as beans and as soup with onions, pork etc.  That meant I was also not having to recycle packaging.  If I was doing the canning in the winter when the house needed heating, I was also warming us.

I figured I could give away half the bulk bag, and still come out ahead.  I don’t remember how much I did give away, but I had friends also living frugally.

To have enough to share, to feel satisfied with and grateful for what I have, to raise “my” own children, these are my “high standards of living”

john mcginnis wrote:

Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote: ... I had my money in my bank a lot longer, making babies for me.

The following is for US citizens. Other countries have different laws and regs.

Finance

The best rate I can find is about 1%apy for a normal savings account ($5000 deposit). The best 5yr CD rate I could find was .65%
The inflation rate per the US dept of Labor is 1.2% link. As backstop 10yr treasuries are yielding .829% as a proxy for inflation.

At best you are breaking even. Inflation is eating the 'babies' sad to say. At worst you are going negative by small measures. I am not against saving. Everyone should have sufficient liquid assets to cover an emergency. How much is up to the individual.

The reality is it would be better to spend wisely as this thread emphasizes. Eg: Lets say I am able to acquire quality boots at $100. With resoling and repair they last a decade. Well you could expect to pay $125 or more for a replacement pair at the end of year 10. Had I deposited the $100 and earned .8%/yr at the end of year 10 I would have $108. So buying the quality boot now yields me better earning value, I use it now, I deferred the inflation curve for the 10 years, etc. The federal reserve has trashed savings in a desperate effort to get the velocity of money up to keep the economy moving.

Now saving monies for the new car when it is needed is still wise. However people may have to redefine savings. Putting it into the bank may not be the best way to save. My suggestion is find some producer like function for the money that produces a return better than what the banks offer that is higher than the inflation rate. When you find it, what is the risk factor associated with it? Always keep that in mind. That could be a side gig, a part time business, buy more bee hives, etc.

US Banks

Be aware that any money you put in a US bank, checking, savings, CDs means YOU become an unsecured creditor to that bank. As such its no longer YOUR MONEY, by US bank law.webpage Essentially you are last in line to get your money back if things go South. An though FDIC is a good thing they only have 10% reserves to cover the trillions in unsecured deposits. Another words FDIC itself could go bankrupt if things got really bad.

Banks are are useful financial tool. But they are not risk free.

Conclusion

A man may pay any price for his first shirt, but hardly ever for the second.

Things are not normal at the current time as in years past. Hence we need to adjust --

* If you need it, buy it. But it must be essential, productive or leverages value to something already owned. No toys.
* Eliminate debt. In the current environment it is the fastest way to 'save'.
* 'Save' skills. It is the fastest way to leverage tasks to make yourself more productive.
* Watch what is going on globally. That indicates trends that affect you personally.
* Stock those things you habitually use.

Personal example:

Our family has gone on a canning/drying/freezing binge this year. More so than we normally do. The reason is two fold. The Chinese had a massive crop failure this year and a another round of swine disease. That means that the Chinese will bid up the market in grains and pork worldwide. By the way, SmithField the largest pork processor in the US is owned by the Chinese now. Selected food prices may not normalize for the next two years as a result. Locking in some of the price now will save us money in the short run.

Be safe, be wise.

I like your comments, John. Thanks for taking the time to write them. I am in the minority, in that I do not believe in debt and I also commit the unpardonable sin of considering a mortgage debt, therefore undesirable.

I am amazed that since the "free market" and "national and global economies" came into the picture, our entire system rises and falls based on USURY! I do not believe this is desirable and hold my wealth in cash and land or tools. I do not want to put my currency in a bank that will turn and make a profit so someone can buy something they don't need on "credit". A dollar I don't need is about a dollar and thirty five cents I do not need to trade my time for.

Wendell Berry does a great job in his writings describing a time when currency (money) was used to a acquire good things. Once the currency (money) became a good in itself, many problems have shown up and persisted. Think about that. Money as a means to buy good things verses money as the good thing or "good".

I, too, don't spend beyond what I have--no debt. I own the house and property outright, have a healthy retirement fund, which I started back in my 20's or 30's, and yet, my credit is considered barely "fair" because I don't use credit.  That whole system is crazy.  I really resent that someone who is responsible with money is penalized because of it!

Barbara Simoes wrote:I, too, don't spend beyond what I have--no debt. I own the house and property outright, have a healthy retirement fund, which I started back in my 20's or 30's, and yet, my credit is considered barely "fair" because I don't use credit.  That whole system is crazy.  I really resent that someone who is responsible with money is penalized because of it!

But you are only penalized if you need to take on debt, right? Otherwise, your credit score doesn’t matter. If you don’t need to borrow, you are ahead of the game.
I agree with you that it is a crazy system… but when it comes to borrowing money from strangers, I can’t think of a better one. If a borrower has no history of borrowing, how do I asses trustworthiness?
Personally, I dislike debt, it makes me feel insecure. But, I have to admit to the logic of things like a mortgage. I have one, with an interest rate of 3%. There are money markets right now with 4% returns. If I put anything I can save into the market, instead if paying down the loan faster, I will come out ahead. If I has waited another 5-10 years to buy land, my fruit trees would be that much farther behind, and I would be spending more on good food. In that situation, it seems like a mortgage is worth the feelings of insecurity it engenders.
Getting back to the original thread - I wonder if we could have something like the permies gear review grid, but primarily for longevity? As it stands, I could review a chainsaw after only using it for a year, which is useful in some regards but not for longevity. I would love to have a resource for all kinds of goods that were reviewed only by folks who had owned the item for an extended period of time.

Barbara Simoes wrote:I, too, don't spend beyond what I have--no debt. I own the house and property outright, have a healthy retirement fund, which I started back in my 20's or 30's, and yet, my credit is considered barely "fair" because I don't use credit.  That whole system is crazy.  I really resent that someone who is responsible with money is penalized because of it!

Well, Barbara, I'm the same way: As a teacher, I never made more than $60,000, and that was with a Masters + 40 and in a year when I took an extra assignment. Everything we own is all paid for. To have a good credit, I have one credit card, which I rarely use, but I pay the balance in total every month and that is just so that they don't ding my credit for having no credit card..  Yes, it would really tick me me off to to be penalized because I live within my means!
I am floored by the stupidity of some ads claiming for example that "you don't pay: Carshield pays". But in the next breath, they tell you that there is a monthly fee for the 'free' repairs. [and you pay that monthly fee every freaking month, whether or not you use it, for the rest of your life!] I don't call that "free!"
Essentially, if we do it that way, we are paying for the convenience, and everything we purchase on layaway works the same way: The convenience fees that we pay enable those offering it to pay for their own living, their kids' braces, college, etc. In other words, we support them with our payments. These things do not accrue benefits for us.
If instead, folks would delay gratification as much as possible [Yeah, I know that's not always possible] and keep that money in their account, that money would accrue interest for them and they would have it all available [and then some!] when they need it.
Learning from a young age to plan and delay gratification, you also gain good financial habits that become second nature, and the plus is that you do not feel 'deprived'.
This past year, my Credit Union was offering some pretty good certificates, so, since I don't need much any more to go from month to month, I bought certificates as much as I could: Some for 12 months, some for 10 at $5,000 each. I really adds up. As soon as one would mature, I would reinvest it, principal and interests, as long as the interest rate was higher than inflation. [Certificate ladder] right now, the inflation rate is 2.4%, so, if you can wait, you can invest in anything that pays more than 2.4% and you will make a profit. Over the last year and a half, I've made several thousand $$.
And the best part is that I didn't have to go to work for it!

Barbara Simoes wrote:I, too, don't spend beyond what I have--no debt. I own the house and property outright, have a healthy retirement fund, which I started back in my 20's or 30's, and yet, my credit is considered barely "fair" because I don't use credit.  That whole system is crazy.  I really resent that someone who is responsible with money is penalized because of it!

I feel your pain, and completely understand.

To me it was like in the movie "War Games" in the 1980's. Its where this kid goes online and starts playing a game with a military computer called thermal Nuclear War. The tension in the story is by way of the military thinking Russia is sending over ballistic missiles, and the USA is ready to retaliate, but it is just a computer simulation. In the end the computer has this line, "This is a silly game. The only way to win, is to just not play".

It is the same with credit. The only way to win financially is to just not play. Like you, I have not played for years, and it is amazing how much money I have saved by not prescribing to the rules that make 85% of American's broke. Yet so many people who are broke, will defend how they spend money to their deaths... I just want to scream, and I guess I am here, "Just don't play the game and you'll win".

But if you think credit is crazy, oh my word is real estate even worse.

I live in a arge Victorian home, on a river, and loaded with tons of stained glass. It's really nice and one of the best in the neighborhood. Yet its value is low. Not because its not a nice house, but because its value is based on what other houses sell for close by.

This puts me in a pickle.

If I keep working on the house, it will be a better house, and sell faster if it is on the market, but only because it is such a steal. I will NEVER get the money back in making the house all it can be. That is because the other houses that have sold in the past few weeks drag the value down. In other words, real estate is based on the fact that real estate agents cannot determine an INDIVIDUAL HOME"S VALUE bcause they need to quantify it with home sales nearby.

THIS IS STUPID

Its like me stating what your car is worth by judging it by what your neighbors have for cars, and what their trade in values were when they sold them. There is no adjustment for why they sold their cars for what they did, or what the car was like; nope just an average price of three cars nearby and that is what your car can be sold for.

It makes no sense and keeps homeowners from investing in their houses. Yes, I can still make my house better and might if it is a forever home, but as an investment home; nope, I am maxed out. I can never get more out of it than what I have right now unless I wait several more years for the value of other houses in the area to increase.

It's insane when you think of it.

I don’t think it’s that the house won’t sell for a higher price, so much as how long you are willing to wait for the right buyer…. And whether or not you have a realtor who understands more that the group think of the profession.

It’s crazy all right.


In the last 10 years I have sold houses for less than their actual value, because I needed to move, and I didn’t want to wait.