sow…reap…compost…repeat
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A house that falls apart in a storm, leaving you homeless, loses all it's embodied energy, turning it all into landfill. That's not pemie either. Yes, learning how to build new construction that can withstand the "new normal of storms" with less embodied energy is a wonderful goal, but building more of the crap housing on the hopes that a storm won't hit you seems both irresponsible and a much larger waste.although from what I understand it isn't considered very permie, it is made of 4000 psi, steel reinforced concrete, I don't regret it.
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Lorinne Anderson: Specializing in sick, injured, orphaned and problem wildlife for over 20 years.
Invasive plants are Earth's way of insisting we notice her medicines. Stephen Herrod Buhner
Everyone learns what works by learning what doesn't work. Stephen Herrod Buhner
Jay Angler wrote:Mark Reed wrote:
A house that falls apart in a storm, leaving you homeless, loses all it's embodied energy, turning it all into landfill. That's not pemie either. Yes, learning how to build new construction that can withstand the "new normal of storms" with less embodied energy is a wonderful goal, but building more of the crap housing on the hopes that a storm won't hit you seems both irresponsible and a much larger waste.although from what I understand it isn't considered very permie, it is made of 4000 psi, steel reinforced concrete, I don't regret it.
Finding environmentally sound ways to build so as to survive a tornado needs to be done. I suspect it can it be done without using huge amounts of concrete and steel, by using better designs for both the house itself and the surrounding environment, and by reinforcing key parts of a structure. One example would be using bolts all the way through rather than nails that can pull out. Another would be improving dome technology (at the moment, too many domes spring leaks, and rain tends to go along with tornados!) It will be great if permies could come up with some really good solutions.
Exactly - part of my point is that we need to keep working on a little more environmentally sound - hopefully leading to significantly more environmentally sound - but not feeling guilty if we are in an area with specifically high risk for certain problems, and choose a method that isn't there yet, because we need a home and shelter now - not 10 years from now.The materials that produce ICF aren't exactly the most green, styrofoam, plastic, and concrete, but when the walls will survive basically anything, it definitely begins to feel like a safer solution than a conventionally stick-built home.
I find that interesting, because I've also heard that sometimes failure is caused when the difference between 'internal pressure' and 'external pressure' become so great that the house essentially explodes. I would absolutely like to see more research done on that concept. Yes there's a lot of rain along with the wind, but would cracking a window on two sides of a house increase or decrease the risk of "explosive decompression". I would love to hear people's experiences with that concept. I'm not sure it would work the same in all types of housing - I do know that something I read recently talked about how houses are built to withstand the weight of gravity. Tornado forces are the reverse - they pull the house and particularly the roof of the house upward and typical houses aren't designed for that. I've read somewhere here on permies of people living in hurricane country essentially having a giant fish net that they spread over their roof and was tied down to the earth when a storm was coming and it worked.I ask Mr. Google who said:
Also, Keep exterior doors and windows closed to minimize rain and flying debris. Closing interior doors will also help to compartmentalize the building and provide more barriers between you and the storm.
Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
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John Daley Bendigo, Australia The Enemy of progress is the hope of a perfect plan
Benefits of rainfall collection https://permies.com/t/88043/benefits-rainfall-collection
GOOD DEBT/ BAD DEBT https://permies.com/t/179218/mortgages-good-debt-bad-debt
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Jay Angler wrote:
Anne Miller wrote:I find that interesting, because I've also heard that sometimes failure is caused when the difference between 'internal pressure' and 'external pressure' become so great that the house essentially explodes. I would absolutely like to see more research done on that concept. Yes there's a lot of rain along with the wind, but would cracking a window on two sides of a house increase or decrease the risk of "explosive decompression".I ask Mr. Google who said:
Also, Keep exterior doors and windows closed to minimize rain and flying debris. Closing interior doors will also help to compartmentalize the building and provide more barriers between you and the storm.
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Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote:
Plan for the worst event that has ever been recorded in your area and overbuild.
Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote:
The Elmer's glue for wood makes a joint so strong that boards will break around it before the joint cracks.
Nothing ruins a neighborhood like paved roads and water lines.
Mark Reed wrote:
Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote:
Plan for the worst event that has ever been recorded in your area and overbuild.
I agree completely!
Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote:
The Elmer's glue for wood makes a joint so strong that boards will break around it before the joint cracks.
I'm not sure that's a good thing. I think a wood structure benefits from a little give here and there. If the joint is too rigid a break or split will happen someplace else. I like carriage bolts; they go all the way through in predrilled holes and are attached to the nut and washer on the other side, not really to the wood at all. A very slight difference between the diameter of the hole and the bolt allows a tiny amount of give in the joint and helps relieve stress on the members. That's why they call them carriage bolts, they were used to keep wooden wagons from tearing themselves apart on rough roads, something that neither nails nor screws can do.
$10.00 is a donation. $1,000 is an investment, $1,000,000 is a purchase.
When I bought this old house, it had a large closet framed in but not finished in one corner of the main-floor room that I use as an office/living room. We got that finished off as a storm-shelter space, following directions from a couple of websites (three layers of half-inch plywood, one layer inside the closet and two on the outside walls). Early Saturday morning we spent some time in it, as we were close to the track of one of the KY tornadoes -- it broke a window in our pastor's house a few miles away. We don't have a basement; I'm hoping eventually to build a storm shelter/root cellar outside of the house. But for now I'm thankful to have the closet to go in. The first year we were here, we spent some time sitting in the stairwell during a tornado warning; that night, someone's barn a mile or so away was hit by a tornado. The closet is not only probably safer, but definitely more comfortable, and I'm able to keep emergency supplies inside of it.
The house is old (built in the 1930's-1940's) and probably sturdier than most modern wood-framed houses, as this is built out of rough-cut lumber, and fastened together with American-made nails rather than the cheap Chinese junk nails that are about all you can find in the stores now. But I'm still really thankful to have the storm closet.
Among the things that are going in the closet will be my rechargeable tools, including the electric chainsaw. That's because one of the biggest dangers is getting stuck inside your shelter after the building is destroyed. I'll also have some hand tools in there.
Lorinne Anderson: Specializing in sick, injured, orphaned and problem wildlife for over 20 years.
Richard Henry wrote:
When I bought this old house, it had a large closet framed in but not finished in one corner of the main-floor room that I use as an office/living room. We got that finished off as a storm-shelter space, following directions from a couple of websites (three layers of half-inch plywood, one layer inside the closet and two on the outside walls). Early Saturday morning we spent some time in it, as we were close to the track of one of the KY tornadoes -- it broke a window in our pastor's house a few miles away. We don't have a basement; I'm hoping eventually to build a storm shelter/root cellar outside of the house. But for now I'm thankful to have the closet to go in. The first year we were here, we spent some time sitting in the stairwell during a tornado warning; that night, someone's barn a mile or so away was hit by a tornado. The closet is not only probably safer, but definitely more comfortable, and I'm able to keep emergency supplies inside of it.
The house is old (built in the 1930's-1940's) and probably sturdier than most modern wood-framed houses, as this is built out of rough-cut lumber, and fastened together with American-made nails rather than the cheap Chinese junk nails that are about all you can find in the stores now. But I'm still really thankful to have the storm closet.
Among the things that are going in the closet will be my rechargeable tools, including the electric chainsaw. That's because one of the biggest dangers is getting stuck inside your shelter after the building is destroyed. I'll also have some hand tools in there.
I did not see any identification of which corner of the home this closet occupies. Most cyclic storms in the northern hemisphere spin counter-clockwise, they also run from southwest to northeast. Since tornadoes generally have a forward speed up up to 60 mph, the strongest winds will be in the northeast quadrant of the storm. Your shelter is best placed in the northwest corner to allow it to see slower wind speeds while still having most of the structure as a shield. In addition, I did not see any reinforcement for the ceiling of the shelter. Really good practice is to make such a shelter as strong as possible and hopefully independent of the rest of the framing to reduce telegraphed stress. A reinforced box is stronger than one with just stronger sides.
Remember that an outside shelter requires exposing the family. Many tornadoes do not provide notice beyond the sound of an incoming freight train. Consider a reinforced transit area from home to shelter, much safer. One hill billy hack I once saw was a heavy concrete culvert set upright just under the bedroom window. When the occupant heard the freight train, he jumped out the window just before the home headed for Oz. He did not.
If you have room, it is a good idea to include some water and a small porta-potty. If a tornado comes knocking, someone inside the shelter will likely need the potty. Of course, appropriately sized diapers also provide in a pinch.
As noted in a post above, please remember that roof framing in an older home may have experienced heat weakening. Very good idea to have strength checked by an expert - if you happen to have ice or snow loads, that check should look for cracks from winter damage. I had a home where snow off an upper roof cracked the roof joists on a lower section. I jacked the system back into place and glued & screwed heavy plywood reinforcements to each side of the cracked members. Please enjoy your home, but never get complacent. Nature has ways of pointing out vulnerabilities.
Jay Angler wrote:
b) only camp or have settlements based on landforms that protected them from such storms (there are permies here that have identified that they've bought land that hasn't had a direct hit tornado in 70 years - they were identifying protective landforms)
Gardens in my mind never need water
Castles in the air never have a wet basement
Well made buildings are fractal -- equally intelligent design at every level of detail.
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Thank you for your first post Kay. Good information/ discussion. I look forward to catching up on the Australasian Forum: https://permies.com/f/51/australasia Good luck for the build.
Cheers
Cole Tyler wrote:Currently my only two living options are a large shed and a 20' trailer. It is scary when the big winds start blowing and there are tornado warnings in the region! I do plan on a root cellar for storage and shelter but that's a next summer project so hopefully I can do it.
My neighbor's house is 600' away, but feels really unrealistic to be heading over there at 1am in the middle of severe weather and expect to just be let in... so I've just been hoping for the best luck. The last storm was stressful and sad as I watched a weatherman talk about how other fellow Kentuckian's town was likely just obliterated by what he was seeing on the weather instruments. I'm more up north where tornadoes aren't as common but it does happen every few years.
Once I get started on the shelter I'll try to post up some pics because that's what I was hoping to find some ideas here about it. I'm thinking almost completely underground with the entry facing NE. Some pea gravel and drain tile around the edges like you'd drain around the foundation of a house, then just concrete block walls with a dirt floor ideally if the water stays out, but some type of gravel if not. The roof is where I guess there could be some interesting options?? Big ol' mound of Earth without caving in, sounds nice :)
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T Blankinship wrote: Back on 11 July 2020 a bad storm did hit my town. Two inch hail and strong winds did damage to my home. I had roof and siding damage, in the end my home insurance was very good to me. I may write more about this in a different thread at a later time.
Cole Tyler wrote:Currently my only two living options are a large shed and a 20' trailer. It is scary when the big winds start blowing and there are tornado warnings in the region!
Invasive plants are Earth's way of insisting we notice her medicines. Stephen Herrod Buhner
Everyone learns what works by learning what doesn't work. Stephen Herrod Buhner
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