Why don't more people make biochar?

I have thought about this idea a lot.  The first thing I think about is that it takes time.  It's not so much that it takes a lot of time once you've gotten started.  It's the uncertainty of building the oven, getting enough wood/biomass, reading about and doing the crushing and charging.  Once you've gotten started, it's really not too bad.
Another idea is that most people just aren't that focused on gardening.  They have a couple of plants, maybe a few in the ground, and it's just not that big a part of their life. A big part of this one is that many people live in apartments or condos where there is no space or hardly any to garden with.
I also think that it feels like work.  Many people are already exhausted and at their wit's end.  They can barely maintain their lifestyles. Thomas Edison said that's why he thinks more people don't invent things.  A related reason is that you can get dirty.  Biochar is black and it will make you look dirty.  Digging it into the soil means you are literally getting dirty.

Why do you think that so few people are actually making biochar?

John S
PDX OR

Some people are really pyrophobic and culturally we are getting to be more and more that way. With fire drills and fire prevention all over and few people ever regularly working with fire in an open hearth or wood stove in the age of oil, these myths about fire’s crazy spreading potential (“just one spark!”) get propagated in a vacuum of real knowledge. The stories of enormous wildfires started by negligence or cigarette butts cause an uninformed fear and terror in a population that is getting to be increasingly ignorant of fire’s actual character. This happens some of the time but only in perfect conditions. Some climates are very conducive to these conditions, others are not. There is always a time and weather when a big fire is safe and not proliferative.

Here in a humid climate, the idea of a fire going out seems like a more scary scenario most of the time because then you need to get all the birch bark and little twigs and work hard… but then again, with the dry weather there were wildfires not terribly far away, and that caused the air quality yesterday to be extremely awful.

Good points. I wasn't thinking that way, even though I live in one of the most fire-prone areas of the US.
John S
PDX OR

Is there strong evidence that it provides benefit?

For me it's a weather thing. When it's wet, the wood is too wet. When it's too dry this area is VERY flammable and generally windy. When it's in between I'm working on the garden stuff while I can.
It wants the same weather time niche as my garden.

Christopher Weeks wrote:Is there strong evidence that it provides benefit?

There is a lot of evidence.  You can wait until there are many multi-year laboratory double blind placebo controlled studies of thousands, but I doubt that will ever happen.  Case studies are also evidence. It depends on what kind of evidence you want.  There will probably never be corporations sponsoring such a study.  I had seen in depth case studies such that I wanted to try it. It made sense to me.  When I saw a format in which I could really make it happen, I pulled the trigger.

John S
PDX OR

Time.  There are numerous excellent ideas on this site and others, but there are only24 hours in the day.  I have several projects I want to get at well ahead of biochar.  There are also numerous things I choose to do…like eating, preparing meals, , cleaning house, doing laundry, etc.  then there are the ever ongoing repairs.

I agree with John.  For me it's just prioritizing the me time to take off and sit by what is like a campfire that I actively manage.  I love doing it, but I often have so many other things to do besides what I want to do.  But when I do take that time for myself, I always love doing it.  Knowing that the biochar will make my compost better, hold water but improve drainage, hold nutrients and bind heavy metals and PFAS is such a great bonus.  

John F Dean wrote:Time.  There are numerous excellent ideas on this site and others, but there are only24 hours in the day.  I have several projects I want to get at well ahead of biochar.  There are also numerous things I choose to do…like eating, preparing meals, , cleaning house, doing laundry, etc.  then there are the ever ongoing repairs.

Perhaps it’s about convincing people, this really is worth your time!

For me I need to be convinced it’s worth my wood that I could be using for cooking, heating, light, and smoking out the mice and mosquitoes. I’m nowhere near having one of the fancy devices that make biochar while using the heat. But, I try to char dead weeds and things of that nature.

John Suavecito wrote:

Christopher Weeks wrote:Is there strong evidence that it provides benefit?

There is a lot of evidence.  You can wait until there are many multi-year laboratory double blind placebo controlled studies of thousands, but I doubt that will ever happen.  Case studies are also evidence. It depends on what kind of evidence you want.  There will probably never be corporations sponsoring such a study.  I had seen in depth case studies such that I wanted to try it. It made sense to me.  When I saw a format in which I could really make it happen, I pulled the trigger.

If it sounded like I was being fighty, that was my bad for being terse while posting on my phone. I'm sloppy and haphazard at it, but I make char, culture it with pee and compost and spread it on the garden. I was really trying to point out that the lack of "strong evidence" is likely a powerful obstacle to more people making biochar.

Part of the deal for me is that I'm getting older.  I have read the research on health in your older ages and longevity. I know that a lot of commercial food, even whole foods, don't have that much nutrition in them.  Eating quality food with high nutrition is crucial for health in your older years.  The nutrition in your soil is really key to make sure your food is good.  My wife and I declared that they are going to haul us out of here in a pine box.  Permaculture in general and biochar specifically are some of the best ways I can think of to ensure your soil retains good microbial nutrition, and it saves on moisture control.  It decreases your water bill.  It keeps the diseases down, because it protects the balance of nature in your soil microbiome food web.  Plus it's good for your mental health and it gives you and your pets a source of inexpensive, healthy entertainment.  So for me, especially after seeing the results in my garden, it has been easily worth it in the long run.  I can't imagine going back. Nor why I would want to.

JohN S
PDX OR

I make small quantities of biochar in a warming pan in our woodstove. I wish I could make more, but, like Pearl, the times of year when I can arrange to have dry wood, and not an high wildfire risk, are narrow, and generally get filled with other priorities.

I do love having what little I have. I mix it into my composts, and into the soil mix I make to start seeds in the spring. (Yes, direct seeding is better in many ecosystems, but I have limited space due to deer, bunnies, slugs, etc, so until I have better fencing, I will have to make do.) I keep looking at different systems trying to figure out how I can adapt a larger system to work for me, despite our weather. I do hope to get there.

There are many different beliefs out there, but personally, I think that even making small quantities of biochar, helps to offset fossil fuels that my family uses. If everyone did so, I think that would make a difference in some of the current changes I'm seeing in our climate.

Like Pearl and Jay, I don't make it in the winter.  There is drizzle most days and almost no evaporation. Wet wood is smoky, inefficient burning and biochar making. The days are very short.  I won't make it from Thanksgiving to about St. Patrick's Day.  

I do make it in the drier months, though. I have a TLUD barrel, with a chimney, so I'm not concerned about fires.  I make it in our driveway, which is cement.  I move the cars out.   In summer, I often make it in the morning because it's too hot.  Now I only have to burn about once a month, because I make so much at that time.  It's a 55 gallon barrel, so I get quite a bit.  Enough for a suburban yard.

JohN S
PDX OR

Hello John!

This is a great question.

I think for folks in the tropics biochar makes a lot more sense.     The warm wet environment allows microbial activity to continue all year and organic material breaks down quickly making it hard to build soil.   Biochar gives homes for microorganisms to live in.  It also creates bulk for the soil, separation between the particulate that does not break down.

For me, living in the cold north with very dry summers, the land produces organic material faster than it is broken down.  It is easy for me to build soil.   I could burn logs to make biochar but I would rather just bury them in soil and make hugelkultur. 

Most soil types in temperate climates will get benefits from biochar even if you already have (or add) lots of organic matter. In my case, the soil here is a fine-textured silt loam laid down by the river pretty recently (less than 20,000 years ago). It's got decent amounts of carbon in it but the structure is prone to packing densely, which means waterlogging and anaerobic conditions when it's wet, and brick-like consistency when it dries out. Adding biochar has been a game changer. The beds that have had decent amounts applied to them, like 2-5%, are completely different. I can plunge my arm in up to the elbow just by wiggling my fingers on the way down.

When I dumped a bunch on top of a paddock that had been turned into a mud pit during days of solid rain, the pasture recovered in a few months and the soil has no hardpan development (which is easy to spot here because they show up as a bluish grey layer a little below the surface). And in another area that did have a hardpan, a treatment of biochar, mulch, and a cover crop of amaranth sorted it out in one growing season. This is the lowest part of the property and used to form a lake whenever we got heavy rains, but since the biochar and cover crop it soaks away within a day as opposed to a week or more. Sorry, ducks...I know that was your hangout.

These examples are not just the result of the biochar application. I know there are other factors at work here, but some of those were already part of the mix beforehand and I can safely say that the biochar has been the "secret sauce."

Even if my soil was perfect, I'd still feed it to the livestock for the benefits it brings them, and I'd still use it in the chicken coop bedding to stop ammonia formation. Also, I wouldn't stop putting it in my compost piles, and I'd keep using it in my potting mix because I like being able to skip watering in the glasshouse for a day or two in the summer and not have everything die.

Samantha Lewis wrote:

Hello John!

This is a great question.

I think for folks in the tropics biochar makes a lot more sense.     The warm wet environment allows microbial activity to continue all year and organic material breaks down quickly making it hard to build soil.   Biochar gives homes for microorganisms to live in.  It also creates bulk for the soil, separation between the particulate that does not break down.

For me, living in the cold north with very dry summers, the land produces organic material faster than it is broken down.  It is easy for me to build soil.   I could burn logs to make biochar but I would rather just bury them in soil and make hugelkultur. 

Hi Samantha,
Thanks for your info.  You make some good points, but from my point of view, it's not yes or no.  As Phil mentioned, the particular characteristics of each ecosystem influence the benefits of hugulkultur or biochar, IMHO.  We had a good discussion on this a few years ago. I don't live anywhere near the tropics, but I've seen great benefits.  My climate here in the PNW would be probably referred to as cool in winter, warm and dry in the summer.  We have lots of drizzly rain in winter, which washes out the nutrients in the soil, unless you have a really good soil food web microbiome. Biochar definitely helps that.  We also have heavy clay soil, so biochar helps with drainage and doesn't biodegrade quickly, unlike organic matter.  I have hugulkultur and organic material too. They just serve different purposes.  Biochar complements the organic material in the soil to build mycelium and it lasts much longer.  It also sequesters carbon.  Biochar absorbs 6 times its volume in water, which helps plants during our dry warm summers. I think that each person could weigh the benefits of their situation and figure out if biochar would be worth it to them.

John S
PDX OR

I agree with John that time plays a role.  Add to that time the need to make a custom Biochar kiln.  As far as I am aware, there is no commercially made, consumer grade Biochar kiln on the market (that could be a cool Permie invention though!!), so there will be additional time spent building the kiln before any char gets made.

But as others have said, this is among my long-term goals.



Eric

What an interesting topic.

I love the point brought up about being "pyrophobic".
In my case, it is hands down what Pearl said - too wet or too dry otherwise I have so many other things to do when the weather is "just right". And even then, I might be at work during this good weather.

We have tons of rain, but also lots of dry super windy days. Plenty of recent forest fires not too far. Now, we do have plenty of wood and I would love to be able to do more with it than firewood and hugels.

Given the amount of time required, I might as well just buy some. But it is hard to find quality stuff and seems silly to ship something like this long distance.

Pearl, Tanya,

Pyrophobic—interesting idea, but for me, that could hardly be the case.  I am downright pyrophyllic, bordering on pyromania!

Really, the idea of taking some wood from my own land and using fire to make it into a wonderful garden product—sign me up for that!!

Again—someday!!


Eric

Oh, I'm absolutely a known pyromaniac.
But I'm also a realist. And fires spread fast here sometimes, and I burn in the best location I have, but fire only needs to run about 20 feet before it's going to be a SERIOUS SERIOUS problem.
So I don't burn when it's unsafe.
This area gets out of control fires started by carelessness way too often. A guy up the street burns stuff on red flag days, and he has a nice big grassy dry pasture behind him, just waiting to go up. People like him worry me. I don't want to be the person who takes out several houses because I'm not paying attention.

i'm with Pearl as well- either it's raining or it's dry and fire hazard.
We also have easy access to good wood charcoal, so I often will just get some leftovers from barbecues and use that (crunch it up well, mix it with bone meal and coffee grounds and use it as a fertilizer).

Another issue is that where I live everyone hangs out their laundry. I've had a neighbor who burns crap on the only nice day when everyone's clean laundry is hanging out to dry, I don't want to be that person. I know once it's going it shouldn't be smelling, but even just as things are getting going, I don't want to have my neighbors thinking of me when they're wearing smoky clothes.

People have touched on the reasons I think most people don't make biochar.  It takes a lot of material, there is a time commitment, people aren't sure there is enough benefit.  All those are true, but I think the biggest hurdle is that people are just intimidated to try.  Before I made it the first time, I did what most people do and searched for ways to do it on the net.  Just the analysis paralysis kept me from trying it for a couple years.  That vanished immediately after the first time I tried it and it became really fun experimenting on doing it in different ways.  Each way of making charcoal has it's own pro's and con's.  I find a beauty in that,  There seems to be a way that will work for everyone.  I love the tilted barrel method, but I can see digging a trench at some point for longer material.  I still have my TLUD barrels, as well as my retort in case I want to revisit those.  The last two times I made biochar, I made it in the firepit in our backyard.  I just kept the fire going, but kept in mind that it was going to be biochar, so I layered it as it turned to coals and I quenched it with the hose when I wanted to be finished.  Both times I ended up with 7 or 8 gals of charcoal.  It would be great if we could convince people to just take that first step and try it.  Like me, they would quickly find out how easy it really is.

Pearl, I too understand your concern about fire going un-contained.

Some day I would like to make a good sized kiln for making biochar—one that makes a sizable quantity in one batch, is easy to load, keeps everything contained so I could make biochar on the hottest, driest, windiest day of the summer during an absolutely punishing drought.

I have seen a couple of designs and starting this project comes down to how much time and money do I want to commit to this project.  At the moment I have several projects in the works, none of them are finished and my summer break is coming to a close.  


Someday!!!




Eric

Good points, all. For me, the big game changer was learning about the trench method. Before then, I tried a few times with various methods of the "make a fire and then deprive it of oxygen" variety. It invariably ended up producing a little bit of char, a lot of half-charred wood, and massive amounts of extremely foul-smelling smoke. I had started believing that making "proper" char was either very hard, or very labour-intensive, or else required a lot more equipment than I was prepared to get. Then, I saw Skillcult's video on the trench method, and since it looked very doable and required no equipment beyond a shovel and a bunch of water, I tried it. I've kept doing it ever since.

Edit to say that the climate around here is wet enough that a big, open fire is no issue. We mainly make char on lightly rainy days, to make sure it won't spread. In a dry climate, some form of retort might seem like a more attractive option.

Eino,

A couple of years ago I made a tiny, prototype of a TLUD made out of a one gallon paint can, two soup cans and a can of beans.

It took a couple of attempts, but once I got the airflow adjusted I was able to make a batch of Biochar with  absolutely no smoke aside from a small amount during the ignition phase.  It burned for about 90 minutes and got HOT!  A faint blue, almost invisible flame rocketed directly out of the chimney and then I understood why these are compared to rockets.

When the burning was completely finished and the outside of the kiln (paint can) was finished, I disassembled the whole kiln and retrieved the bean can inside the paint can.  I carefully pulled out the pieces of wood that I initially loaded, but were now charcoal.  It was fascinating to see all the details of wood still present in charcoal.

As I stated, this was a test made of cans I rescued from the recycling bin.  The paint can only lasted for about five burns as it started to oxidize pretty quickly, having never even remotely been designed for these kinds of thermal conditions.  I suppose that ultimate version would be made of titanium or tungsten to be impervious to heat, but these are pretty exotic materials for what should be a simple and inexpensive build.

If I could design one for dedicated use, I would actually make different sizes for different projects.  But the one I have in mind would look something like a typical, rectangular wood stove.  But one side would be able to open up for side loading.  Inside would be another, smaller rectangular box that is also able to be opened from side for side loading.  Even better, the box would not be rigidly attached, but be able to both tilt slightly up for easy loading and then out and slightly down for extraction of the the finished char.  Of course, there would be appropriate vents.

Another feature I would like is for portability.  Maybe attach wheels or have some apparatus that would allow it to roll (maybe like a charcoal grill).  Of course I would want it to be movable by a tractor—maybe by forklift bars or a three point attachment.


Just a few thoughts



Eric

I need lots of wood chips to mulch my apple trees and as  carbon source for manure composting.  I also heat exclusively with wood so I tend not to have much wood left to turn into biochar.

I am working towards doing a pig-aerator ala Joel Salatin, which is also going to be wood chip intensive ,  adding a layer of biochar when adding wood chips would be a nice touch. I just question whether I will have the extra waste wood.

Jeff Marchand wrote:I need lots of wood chips to mulch my apple trees and as  carbon source for manure composting.  I also heat exclusively with wood so I tend not to have much wood left to turn into biochar.  

Some people have told me that fruit tree prunings can carry diseases, so it's best not to mulch with these. I suspect the diseases wouldn't survive the charring process?

Yeah Jay that makes sense to me.  My orchard is still young so does nt produce much woody waste yet.   It would be great candidate for biochar.  I do have many wild apple trees that need clearing, so I could make biochar out of them too,  

Alternatively I could chip them , use as bedding  then hot compost with manure and spread on hay field.  Bottom line ,  I just dont have enough woody waste!

There is a saw mill down the road from me where I could get off cuts and turn them into biochar, and Ive been thinking of doing that.  Then I run into the ultimate scarce resource: TIME!

Tereza Okava wrote:i'm with Pearl as well- either it's raining or it's dry and fire hazard.
We also have easy access to good wood charcoal, so I often will just get some leftovers from barbecues and use that (crunch it up well, mix it with bone meal and coffee grounds and use it as a fertilizer).

Another issue is that where I live everyone hangs out their laundry. I've had a neighbor who burns crap on the only nice day when everyone's clean laundry is hanging out to dry, I don't want to be that person. I know once it's going it shouldn't be smelling, but even just as things are getting going, I don't want to have my neighbors thinking of me when they're wearing smoky clothes.

If you're doing it right there should be little or no smoke. That's the difference between making biochar and having a burn pile. Which is to say, I guess, that if you're not set up with an optimal process, then it's probably best to let someone else do it and find a way to buy or trade for some of what they make. Poorly made biochar is not doing much good and if it turns into a public perception issue, then we end up with local authorities cracking down on everyone, including those who are set up to do it well.

We make biochar at commercial scale.  We get the temperature right to maximise the balance of pore sizes and pore availability (mycorrhizae and other microorganisms live in those holes) and we grind it and sieve it to makes sure it is best for whichever application it is used for (trees, grass/turf/vegetable growing) and we capture the off gases to make electricity rather than letting them add to the greenhouse gas levels in the atmosphere.  And we do it a lot more cheaply because of the scale at which we do it.  We started out, back in 2008, with small scale kilns and sold our designs to farmers in Belize and in Malawi among other places, but generally you get better biochar at a lower price if you buy it from a competent manufacturer.  Craig Sams  Founder of Carbon Gold Ltd, www.carbongold.com

I feel that my biochar production is limited by my lack of biochar feedstock. I don't have a large property to scavenge deadwood from so my biochar production reflects that. I get a few burns together in a year, but I think it would increase if I had more material to burn.

@Timothy.  If you lived within 100 miles of me, I would invite you over to help me feed a couple of hundred tonnes of materials through whatever retort we can keep lit -- I have at least another 20 or so 50' to 100' trees that got snapped in the tornado that came down in the neighborhood.  You are welcome to any of it you are interested in.  No SERIOUSLY, Come I Beg You ;-)  

On a more serious note, ask around.  You might find some neighbors that have down trees/shrubs that they are having trouble getting removed.  Baring that, check to see if there are tree removal, or landscaping folks, that are willing to give you branches from some job site.  They typically have to chip and/or remove the stuff, and you can probably pick up truckloads to trailer loads, and it is just that much more they do not have to deal with.  Also call around your city/county and see if there is a place for people to haul old downed trees.  If you find one, ask if you can pick up some wood from it for some projects.  There might be rules against it, but it is a no until you ask...

I think the "pipeline" factor is important for keeping the process running smoothly at scale. By that I mean, having biochar production as one important step in a sensible operation/maintenance regime for your site. Making the stuff as an end goal in itself is marginal or unsustainable, but if it fits well in a sequence of other productive, function-stacking tasks, then it really is easy to establish a system and routine and make and use a lot of the stuff. For me, the pipeline is brush clearing / fuel reduction on a large neglected and overgrown property which leads to lots of light weight soil improving fill material and amendment I can incorporate in a variety of more fine tuned landscaping and nutrient cycling endeavors. It helps that my feed stock requires no pre-processing and burns quickly to a nice output in open pits, but it's an adaptable process and not hard to streamline when you have the incentive of an essential workflow serving several purposes consistently.

Ben Brownell wrote: For me, the pipeline is brush clearing / fuel reduction on a large neglected and overgrown property ...

That is my situation as well. I HAVE to deal with this material; it's not optional. So if I have to burn anyway, after dragging this stuff off steep slopes, the value-added step of making char makes this lousy grunt work a bit more meaningful, adding value on many levels (soil additive, carbon sequestration, bragging rights).

Most people live in suburbia / urban areas. Sure, it's possible to source materials, dry them, and char them without hopefully annoying neighbours and having Bylaw on your tail. And of course there has to be a use for the char that's created. All possible, as a passionate hobby; but I'm not sure it is driven by necessity.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:
Most people live in suburbia / urban areas. Sure, it's possible to source materials, dry them, and char them without hopefully annoying neighbours and having Bylaw on your tail. And of course there has to be a use for the char that's created. All possible, as a passionate hobby; but I'm not sure it is driven by necessity.

I'm in this situation. We're only allowed to burn in November.  

Also, apart from his year of drought, usually historically in a moist & temperate climate.

Plus, despite being a passionate sustainable gardener, who has read around the subject, I've still not seen a clear analysis of how the effort would be overall beneficial.

Open to learn more, though!

I've had the fire department sicced on me a couple of times.  I burn in the cement driveway with a chimney.  They were annoyed that someone called, because they considered it a waste of time.  No danger whatsoever. People can have barbecues.  This is a suburban area.  I guess it depends on where you live.

John S
PDX OR

I would wager most of the general public doesn’t know what biochar is.  Even among experienced gardeners, I usually have to explain it a bit.

John Suavecito wrote:I've had the fire department sicced on me a couple of times.  I burn in the cement driveway with a chimney.  They were annoyed that someone called, because they considered it a waste of time.  No danger whatsoever. People can have barbecues.  This is a suburban area.  I guess it depends on where you live.

John S
PDX OR

In the town where I grew up, there were restrictions on "open burning" limited to late winter - early spring, and a required call to the fire department both to get the okay due to conditions, and granting of a permit and being told the rules (hours, safety, etc.). The town where I live now, open burning is not allowed at all. So, any burning would need to be in some sort of "appliance": fire pit, cooker - grill/oven/smoker, or something else contained... probably... like a kiln or retort. So, that limits the pit or trench methods in both time and place. The kiln or retort ( or just plain fire pit) would have to be used practically speaking.

I have had the F.D. called by a neighbor on many occasions. On days when it was allowed, and we had called in for permission, and they respond to the call because that's what they do. They are compelled to, there's never a second call of "no, really it IS a fire this time! I swear it!"
They checked our preparedness (charged hose nearby) what we were burning (told to not burn too many scraps of plywood all at once... we had a small pile that we were adding to the brush.) and they even complimented us on a nice setup (a steel ring raised on bricks for airflow).

Ben Brownell wrote:I think the "pipeline" factor is important for keeping the process running smoothly at scale. By that I mean, having biochar production as one important step in a sensible operation/maintenance regime for your site. Making the stuff as an end goal in itself is marginal or unsustainable, but if it fits well in a sequence of other productive, function-stacking tasks, then it really is easy to establish a system and routine and make and use a lot of the stuff. For me, the pipeline is brush clearing / fuel reduction on a large neglected and overgrown property which leads to lots of light weight soil improving fill material and amendment I can incorporate in a variety of more fine tuned landscaping and nutrient cycling endeavors. It helps that my feed stock requires no pre-processing and burns quickly to a nice output in open pits, but it's an adaptable process and not hard to streamline when you have the incentive of an essential workflow serving several purposes consistently.

^^^This^^^ and the time factor... and some procrastination.
I really like the concept of seeing systems, where nothing stands alone, but fits in to solve a problem and/or serve a need, and doesn't produce "waste", only "inputs" to another element of the system. Capturing/using the heat from biochar making for space heating or some other purpose. Using lumpy charcoal for cooking or heating/forging (rather than needing to crush it) and sifting out the small bits of biochar for soil amendments.
My struggle is managing my time, and building the system and its components, so that I can operate on-time/in-season with available inputs and required outputs. Maybe this year...

The place I live now has all sorts of restrictions, and for large brush piles they require a permit, and you have to check in with the local PD.  Probably not required for an enclosed barrel, but then again, I would like to think I am smart enough not to burn on fire-hazard days.  The real problem I have is that when I was clearing a bunch of dead/down stuff, one of the people helping me decided to push a 20T to 50T pile into an old breached fishpond (basically a big hole in the ground).  I have to deal with all that eventually in some way.  That is likely going to be a winter burn in the snow to control everything.  That or maybe I will try to use a timber hook on the backhoe and start dragging things up, splitting, and charing...