possible kickstarter for wofati greenhouse project

We spent about three hours polishing the rewards yesterday.  Here is what we have so far:

REWARDS:

$1 level (THANKS)
  New microdoc about berm shed
  17-podcast review of Gaia’s Garden by Toby Hemenway
  PEP ebook rough draft
  19 skiddable structures microdoc (4 gift codes)
  Wofati microdoc (4 gift codes)
  Rocket Oven Cooking microdoc (4 gift codes)
  Hugelkultur microdoc (4 gift codes)
  Cool public thanks

$5 (CANDY)
  One copy of the Better World ebook (gift code)
  Full movie “Ponds” from the World Domination Gardening 3-DVD set
  Full movie “Wild Edibles” (4 gift codes)
  Access to the Secret Inner Circle forum on permies.com
  + Everything in THANKS

$10 level (MOVIE)
  The movie! Zero-Energy Greywater Greenhouse in Montana (HD streaming)
  + Everything in CANDY
  + Everything in THANKS

$25 level: (EARLY)
  Part 1, Design, released in September 2020 (HD streaming)
  Part 2, Build, released in November 2020 (HD streaming)
  Part 3, Test, released in May 2021 (HD streaming)
  Tiny download (SD) of the completed movie in May 2021
  + Everything in MOVIE
  + Everything in CANDY
  + Everything in THANKS

$50 level: (BUILD)
  The formal plans with dimensions, diagrams, etc. (if Kyle agrees)
  View at least three full design meetings
  View a formal weekly build review session with the builders
  HD download of the completed movie in May 2021
  + Everything in EARLY
  + Everything in MOVIE
  + Everything in CANDY
  + Everything in THANKS

$100 level (GLORY)
  Your most creative name in the final movie
  Participate remotely in at least three design meetings
  Participate remotely with the builders in a formal weekly build review session (Fridays)
  Participate remotely in one-hour informal walkthroughs (Mondays and Wednesdays)
  Participate remotely in a tour of Allerton Abbey and its gardens (September harvest 2020)
  Participate remotely in a tour of Allerton Abbey and its gardens (June 2021)
  3 gift codes for the final movie (HD streaming)
  $100 gapper fee waived - you can come participate in a future build
  A chance to be one of 3 people selected to participate in this build
  + Everything in BUILD
  + Everything in EARLY
  + Everything in MOVIE
  + Everything in CANDY
  + Everything in THANKS

We hope to have 40 different items as earlybird things.  

Paul and I spent a long time yesterday working on the rewards list to try to make it really awesome. Here is what we've come up with so far:

REWARDS:

$1 (THANKS)
New microdoc about berm shed
17-podcast review of Gaia’s Garden by Toby Hemenway
PEP ebook rough draft
19 skiddable structures microdoc (4 gift codes)
Wofati microdoc (4 gift codes)
Rocket Oven Cooking microdoc (4 gift codes)
Hugelkultur microdoc (4 gift codes)
Cool public thanks

$5 (CANDY)
One copy of the Better World ebook (gift code)
Full movie “Ponds” from the World Domination Gardening 3-DVD set
Full movie “Wild Edibles” (4 gift codes)
Access to the Secret Inner Circle forum on permies.com
+ Everything in THANKS

$10 (MOVIE)
The movie! Zero-Energy Greywater Greenhouse in Montana (HD streaming)
+ Everything in CANDY
+ Everything in THANKS

$25 (EARLY)
Part 1, Design, released in September 2020 (HD streaming)
Part 2, Build, released in November 2020 (HD streaming)
Part 3, Test, released in May 2021 (HD streaming)
Tiny download (SD) of the completed movie in May 2021
+ Everything in MOVIE
+ Everything in CANDY
+ Everything in THANKS

$50 (BUILD)
The formal plans with dimensions, diagrams, etc. (we would like to offer this, but need to discuss it with Kyle first)
View at least three full design meetings
View a formal weekly build review session with the builders
HD download of the completed movie in May 2021
+ Everything in EARLY
+ Everything in MOVIE
+ Everything in CANDY
+ Everything in THANKS

$100 (GLORY)
Your most creative name in the final movie
Participate remotely in at least three design meetings
Participate remotely with the builders in a formal weekly build review session (Fridays)
Participate remotely in one-hour informal walkthroughs (Mondays and Wednesdays)
Participate remotely in a tour of Allerton Abbey and its gardens (September harvest 2020)
Participate remotely in a tour of Allerton Abbey and its gardens (June 2021)
3 gift codes for the final movie (HD streaming)
$100 gapper fee waived - you can come participate in a future build
A chance to be one of 3 people selected to participate in this build
+ Everything in BUILD
+ Everything in EARLY
+ Everything in MOVIE
+ Everything in CANDY
+ Everything in THANKS

$150 (ROCKET)
Better Wood Heat Rocket Mass Heater 8-DVD Set (HD streaming gift code)
Rocket Ovens DVD (HD streaming gift code)
+Everything in GLORY
+ Everything in BUILD
+ Everything in EARLY
+ Everything in MOVIE
+ Everything in CANDY
+ Everything in THANKS

$200 (PDC AND ATC)
100 Hours of PDC (HD streaming gift code)
77 Hours of ATC (HD streaming gift code)
+Everything in ROCKET
+Everything in GLORY
+ Everything in BUILD
+ Everything in EARLY
+ Everything in MOVIE
+ Everything in CANDY
+ Everything in THANKS

$500 (GOOFBALLS KEEN ON WORLD DOMINATION)
Your most creative name listed with a limited number of names in a big font on a screen just for goofballs in the final movie
+Everything in PDC AND ATC
+Everything in ROCKET
+Everything in GLORY
+ Everything in BUILD
+ Everything in EARLY
+ Everything in MOVIE
+ Everything in CANDY
+ Everything in THANKS

$1,000  (ASSOCIATE PRODUCER)
Get your name burned in a log of the greenhouse
Associate Producer credit in the final movie
+Everything in GOOFBALLS KEEN ON WORLD DOMINATION
+Everything in PDC AND ATC
+Everything in ROCKET
+Everything in GLORY
+ Everything in BUILD
+ Everything in EARLY
+ Everything in MOVIE
+ Everything in CANDY
+ Everything in THANKS

$2,000 (EXECUTIVE PRODUCER)
Executive Producer credit in the final movie
+Everything in ASSOCIATE PRODUCER
+Everything in GOOFBALLS KEEN ON WORLD DOMINATION
+Everything in PDC AND ATC
+Everything in ROCKET
+Everything in GLORY
+ Everything in BUILD
+ Everything in EARLY
+ Everything in MOVIE
+ Everything in CANDY
+ Everything in THANKS

$3,000 (SUPREME EXECUTIVE PRODUCER)
Supreme Executive Producer with Bacon, Cheese, and Sparkles credit in the final movie
+Everything in EXECUTIVE PRODUCER
+Everything in ASSOCIATE PRODUCER
+Everything in GOOFBALLS KEEN ON WORLD DOMINATION
+Everything in PDC AND ATC
+Everything in ROCKET
+Everything in GLORY
+ Everything in BUILD
+ Everything in EARLY
+ Everything in MOVIE
+ Everything in CANDY
+ Everything in THANKS

What do you think?

Jennifer Richardson wrote:Paul and I spent a long time yesterday working on the rewards list to try to make it really awesome. Here is what we've come up with so far:


What do you think?

Sounds very generous and I think the rewards will tempt a lot of people.  I had figured I'd be able to do $100 level, but the extra $50 would get me the rocket stuff so I'll probably do that.  See .... it's working already!

I think the script is solid.  The only thought that comes to me is, Can you make this sound more tangible? like the way politicians say "when I am President, I will ___". "This winter, we'll see it in action and give kickstarter donors updates of how the experiment's unfolding" (assuming you were already going to do something like that?).  Some sense of a time line, even if it's kind of obvious, just because spelling it out makes it sound more tangible and conjures an image in people's mind's.  "We dig this in __(July?), enclose it in __(August), it starts generating thermal inertia and in Februrary we'll see the real test."  

Maybe this idea doesn't need to be part of the script, but just an add-on description on the kickstarter page.

The last kickstarters had more of this sense of tangible connection because you got to build a rocket oven (or had some hope of), or hold a book in your hand.  With this one, it's not quite as tangible because fewer people are going to be able to dig a new greenhouse based on the design.  But giving a sense of the tangible results you'll be sharing with us in some kind of updates makes it feel like we're getting to touch a tangible result ourselves.

Now that I think about it, it might be worth going back a bit and restating the problem for people who don't see how much their septic, or their sewer toilet, is costing them and the planet each flush.  that's also tangible, even if it's the tangible problem.  I know I didn't think about poop as my daily participatory way of making the world worse until I listened to the podcasts about the willow feeders.

So, in a word, tangible?

This is just what comes to mind, take what you like and leave the rest.

Please capitalize Mike in the fourth paragraph, second sentence.  

I might have something for the earlybird freebies - who do I contact?

I second Ash's point and script idea.  

To me the main selling point to the general public is "you want to live sustainably in a cold climate, but you still have to put your waste water somewhere."  Showing some pictures of how this would go wrong, would drive the point home--or a picture of a power meter reading 7 amps (I'm assuming that's the power for the Nebraska oranges greenhouse?) or of an electric bill shock for greenhouse heating, and then a gratuitously violent death of an orangutan in a forest fire in a barren clearcut forest--no, wait, scratch that last part, that's something else.  

But seriously, many millions of people have gotten savvy to the "it's green--but the backup power is coal" greenwash problem.  So they're ready to ask the next question.  The _Planet of the Humans" documentary reached a LOT of people, and although gray water wasn't discussed in it, anything that takes energy is now on people's radar some.  And poop got put on people's radar when Bill Gates took that on--and of course everything famous he's doing is in a hot climate, I don't think any of it is here.  You could say something brash like "To boldly go where Bill Gates has not gone before."

And as for the word "experimental" I would say it's a bit more certain than an experiment (the Oehler greenhouse does already exist, yes? tomatoes in December in Idaho...) but it's a risk as to the question of whether you can take things one step further.  I just would try to leave the word "experimental" out of it and use a more hopeful word.

If that engineer can look at the numbers and say something convincing about it, that would add credibility.

If you can do that yourself and show the numbers, that will also carry some weight.

Lastly, even though I did listen to the podcast about graywater at one point, here's my dumb question--what happens if you just dump your graywater out the window all winter long, does it form a big block of ice that then melts and stinks in the spring? is that so bad?  how did they do this before sewage systems or septics were common?  it might not be a question viewers of the kickstarter would think of, but in marketing it helps to answer questions that people didn't even think of asking but realize, when answered, should indeed have been asked.

That's what comes to my mind, hope it's helpful.

Ash Jackson wrote:First off: I love it; I get it; I'm in for Glory™.

Now I'm gonna poke at the kickstarter itself a bit (hopefully constructively).
---
Lead up: How does one month of lead-time compare to your other kickstarters? In my ignorance I'm concerned whether one month is enough time for pre-marketing for it to be as smashing a success as I hope it to be. I see it as a question of, "how many hurdles can you clear?" My understanding is there are currently a couple of extra hurdles for kickstarters in general.
---
Candy: BWB KS shows you have a really good handle on this, in my opinion. And a great deal of generosity. Not sure I can add anything, except to offer My PEP Badge Tracker as a potential freebie on the pile of freebies.
---
Title: The Always-Warm Greenhouse in Montana Experiment (Movie) [56 char]
---
Script: General Ideas
- Borrowing from the BWB video, I'd consider skipping over the details of the design and experiments. I think it's sufficient to say something like "I have devious plots to improve this."
  - Maybe you think the details are necessary to move people from "that's bullshit" to "well duh."  If so, then perhaps the script says that outright. "I know what you're thinking... An always-warm greenhouse in Montana?" to lead into the nitty-gritty.
- 'It's an experiment!': I think the script should say this, loud and up front. It's an exciting thing to me to fund {an experiment.} Come to think of it, it's several simultaneous experiments.
- 'But you get the video regardless of whether the experiment succeeds or "fails"!' {I think should be said, too.}
---
Script: My try. [concurrent video cues in brackets]

Hi! I'm Paul Wheaton; and this is my 9th Kickstarter. [collage of kickstarters, ending with BWB atop the pile.]

One big challenge to building a better world in your backyard is answering the question, "How do I deal with my Greywater, responsibly and safely?" [turn to BWB page 94-96, then quickly cut to pics of greywater garden in sunny place]

"In the winter? In Montana? Or any other cold climate?" [show pic(s) of snow-swept, frozen landscape.]

The answer; is a greenhouse. But not just any greenhouse. [collage of Oehler greenhouse with markups, other schematics]

An experimental greenhouse, incorporating devious designs nobody has tried yet, to ensure the greenhouse is always warm, even in the harshest Montana Winter. [quick cut back to snowy landscape]

(insert "I know what you're thinking...An always-warm greenhouse in Montana?" and design details here, if necessary)

As with any good experiment, we're going to log and record and document the heck out of this. Including making a movie of the entire process. [collage of logging thermometers, graph paper, sciencey things]

That's where you come in. [faceless cutout, labeled "YOU", with thought bubble, "Me?"]

Your help will fund not only building this experimental always-warm greywater greenhouse; but the thorough documentation of the design, building, data logging, stumbles, and successes. ["me?" person successively surrounded in images of the documentation example list]

Regardless of whether my devious designs create the greenhouse of my dreams, you'll get a movie showing the whole process from start to finish. [atop collage of documentation images, video snippet of Paul in labcoat]

While the greenhouse is an experiment, the movie documenting the greenhouse is not. [orderly laying out of all DVD's]

I've successfully funded and delivered N movies, and several of those amidst huge hurdles and comedy.

This time, we have our seasoned Wheaton Labs video crew ready to go. [cutouts of Josiah and Jen and video equipment]

And a bootcamp full of people, hungry to build this experimental greenhouse. [cutouts Paul & Fred and boots et al (i.e. everyone) join Josiah and Jen, a veritable crowd of people]

After sharing this idea in my Better World Book and on my podcast, it seems that a LOT of people want me to shift my priorities and do this project NOW! [new crowd, chanting now! now! now!]

So much so that they are waving fistfuls of cash in my general direction. [fistfuls of cash]

This is the big kickstarter question. Is there enough interest in solving this problem of responsible greywater processing during the Montana winter to fund a movie documenting the experiments and solutions? [fade to black]

Please borrow, steal, or ignore as needed.
{edits in squiggles}

Kate Downham wrote:I might have something for the earlybird freebies - who do I contact?

Oooooh, that's awesome! Posting here in this thread is great. I'm thinking the best people to contact with stuff like this is probably Jen or myself. For ease of reference, here's links to
PM Jen)  and PM me.

we might start the work in early august - an excellent time to do that sort of work.  We expect the build to take four weeks.  And then we need to test the temperatures over the winter.  So the final movie could be available sometime in march.

I’m confused. If you are counting on ATI, wouldn’t August be on the wrong end of the cycle to start this? Or are you not using anything to charge the mass under the umbrella? Also (as has been mentioned), it seems a 1” pipe in a well casing is way too small to provide the air flow needed... does Missoula even get enough sun in mid winter to ‘power’ that?
I love the concept, and being at lat. 61 I would love to be able to have environmental greywater disposal year round. I do have a south facing slope handy, but absolutely not enough sun in dec-jan😕

Julie Reed wrote:

Or are you not using anything to charge the mass under the umbrella? Also (as has been mentioned), it seems a 1” pipe in a well casing is way too small to provide the air flow needed... does Missoula even get enough sun in mid winter to ‘power’ that?

Charging the mass - good point.  May work better after a year of letting the system run.  

1" pipe - sounds like a good opportunity to experiment.  Maybe different size pipe in the 2 casings.  Or maybe different number of pipes in the 2 casings.

Does Missoula even get enough sun - more pipe would mean more light absorbed.  That's where my thought on different extensions would come into play.

The plan is to put in two of the pipes.  Maybe one can be one inch and one can be 1.5 inches.  And then if drop a thermometer 20 feet down, we can see which pipe is warmer at the bottom.

Paul and I are starting to buckle down on putting together the list of goodies offered to early bird supporters. We have a few new things lined up for this year and are in contact with a lot of folks who offered things last year, but we want to be able to offer at least twenty more things to make the early bird package super sweet. We are looking for relatively small digital items, such as short videos, PDFs, slides/presentations, ebook chapters, etc. Here is the list of everything that was offered last year:


https://permies.com/wiki/105778/Earlybird-Bonus-Goodies-World-Book


If you'd like to offer something, or if you have ideas about people we could contact who might have cool stuff to offer, you can respond here in the thread or PM me!

Thanks!

Phil Swindler wrote:

Julie Reed wrote:

Or are you not using anything to charge the mass under the umbrella? Also (as has been mentioned), it seems a 1” pipe in a well casing is way too small to provide the air flow needed... does Missoula even get enough sun in mid winter to ‘power’ that?

Charging the mass - good point.  May work better after a year of letting the system run.  

1" pipe - sounds like a good opportunity to experiment.  Maybe different size pipe in the 2 casings.  Or maybe different number of pipes in the 2 casings.

Does Missoula even get enough sun - more pipe would mean more light absorbed.  That's where my thought on different extensions would come into play.

You may also find that the Earth's mass just keeps pulling the heat away such that it's hard to charge it up too much.  But there may be a bigger benefit, which is you will create a syphon which will suck the cold air from the air drop down into the 20' pipes where the cold will then be pulled away by the Earth's heat.  In that way there will never be cold air accumulating in the greenhouse.  You can always cover the black end of the pipe to see if the temperature of the earth at the bottom of the pipes actually heats up or if it works by pulling away the cold (maybe some of both).  

If using the Earth's heat to pull away the cold does the trick then you might want to have the pipe go through solar heated thermal mass like Willow Wonka's lovely trombe wall.  That way it will keep pulling at night when heat loss is the worst....that cold air will then just keep getting sucked down the pipes where the cold will get sucked into the earth.

paul wheaton wrote:The plan is to put in two of the pipes.  Maybe one can be one inch and one can be 1.5 inches.  And then if drop a thermometer 20 feet down, we can see which pipe is warmer at the bottom.

I'm curious about the inner pipe size. Why so small? It seems to me that splitting the CSA of the 6" well casing closer to 50%/50% would make the air flow in the riser and the well casing "more equal" so as not to limit the flow by the capacity of the small pipe? Also the falling air flow would be more laminar/in contact with outer well casing for better heat exchange? A 4" inner pipe is close to 50% of the CSA of the 6". I'm sure my simple 50/50 CSA is over simplistic, and that there's some physics/mathematics calculations to balance the flow, like more friction in the outer space versus in the riser pipe...but my gut has me wondering where Goldilocks is.

Greg Martin wrote:
You may also find that the Earth's mass just keeps pulling the heat away such that it's hard to charge it up too much.  But there may be a bigger benefit, which is you will create a syphon which will suck the cold air from the air drop down into the 20' pipes where the cold will then be pulled away by the Earth's heat.  In that way there will never be cold air accumulating in the greenhouse.  You can always cover the black end of the pipe to see if the temperature of the earth at the bottom of the pipes actually heats up or if it works by pulling away the cold (maybe some of both).  

If using the Earth's heat to pull away the cold does the trick then you might want to have the pipe go through solar heated thermal mass like Willow Wonka's lovely trombe wall.  That way it will keep pulling at night when heat loss is the worst....that cold air will then just keep getting sucked down the pipes where the cold will get sucked into the earth.

As important as "charging the Earth's mass" is dealing with overly high daytime temperature inside the greenhouse, having a heat sink to do the cooling without directly venting it away to outside is great, especially if you can get a reward at night by returning the heat as you suggest, or even just settle for slightly lower losses to a slighly warmer Earth.

I'm wondering how the well casing will be installed?  If it'll be "washed" or drilled somehow, that makes sense.  If it will be placed into a hole dug by the excavator, then we might want to consider using a slightly bigger diameter.  Like a 2' culvert...

Like a 2' culvert...

Agreed. I don’t think much air will flow through a well casing (and definitely not a little 1” pipe) without a fan. Even experiments I’ve seen done with fans and 6” ductwork struggle to exchange enough air. I like this project but I think it might be heavy on theory and light on engineering?

In my experience, Paul has an uncanny way of being right about just about everything, even when he seems to be dead wrong.  It's really irritating sometimes, but it's obviously got benefits.  However, you've got to bring us along with you on your deviousness, Paul.

It's too much info for a kickstarter video, but maybe having a link to "more info" for people who want to dig deeper or pick at things would help.

I'm interested in Kenneth's point about the geothermal effect kicking in.

I'm thinking the August timeline is an issue--unless you're planning on building it at your sister site, Wheaton Labs South, in Australia, the land of the sun on the north.  (That freaks me out)

Is there a thermal mass already charged up and ready to go for this experiment? ie a wall of Allerton Abbey?  That too should be spelled out for people who want to contribute comments at the level of Nitpicker.

One last thought--it would be great to have numbers for the embodied energy of the well casings (mining, smelting, melting, forming...labor costs, toxic footpring, etc...)

OK I lied another last thought is you can possibly save on a drill rig for the 20' wells by using the hand-powered percussion drilling method (web search for Cliff Missen).  I'm recalling the comedy around getting the earlier wells dug.  I guess you got down 20' with the augur workaround?

What temperature does this need to be at to function? tomatoes? kale? black swallowwort (seems to grow at any temperature between -2000 kelvin and surface of the sun)?

Does this design handle the greenhouse suck factor (I don't know or recall what that is, but you were all on about TEFA...what's to prevent Textured Earth Flush All year?

At what point does this become more trouble than it's worth--ie, a septic and leach field is less metal and mateiral, less digging, same yield...?

paul wheaton wrote:This has been a rollercoaster day.  

We mentioned an idea in a couple of places.  We want to install a year round graywater system in allerton abbey.  So there would be a small wofati greenhouse a little ways away from allerton abbey.  And it would be full of plants that looooove graywater.  

In discussions a few months ago with jennifer and josiah, the three of us came up with some ideas for what would make a wofati greenhouse be a step up from an oehler greenhouse.  

An oehler greenhouse has four major components:

  - pit style

  - one long bed with the bed on the uphill side, and walkway on the downhill side

  - earth bermed on the north side

  - a five feet deep pit under the walkway

The wofati greenhouse would add

  - the earth berm side would add the umbrella to add annualized thermal inertia (ATI)

  - the five feet deep pit would be augmented with two 20 feet deep well casings

  - passive destratification


Passive destratification:   a one inch pipe would go to about a foot from the bottom of the well casing to a foot from the top of the greenhouse area.   Blackened metal pipe would be exposed to the sun.  When the sun shines on the pipe, air is moved up.  Cold air is pulled from the lowest area, warmed and expelled into the greenhouse.  This means that the warmer air in the greenhouse is eventually pulled/pushed into the lowest area.   Without this, the air at the top of the greenhouse gets very warm while the air at the lowest area remains cold - stratified.   The one inch pipe will passively force an air exchange from the coldest area to the warmest.  During the night, the lowest area can become warmer than the greenhouse area, so that air rises.  


-----

Today I was meeting with Mike and Ashley and they suggested that I should do a kickstarter for the wofati greenhouse.   Basically, we have josiah here to be the videographer guy.  And we have the bootcamp here to build it.  

So at lunch we threw together a rough idea.  

Rewards:

$15 the final movie when it is all done

$50 heaps of raw footage as we collect it

$100 weekly interactive:  Two hours of Q&A as we plow through the project.   All of which is recorded and may end up in the final movie.  No fewer than four interactives.  Plus, name in the credits and a few other goodies.  


We are trying to put together a rough idea of expenses.  Maybe some extra video equipment?  If we are on a timeline, we might need a "plan B" for the excavator.  Materials.  Tools?  All of the regular kickstarter expenses.  


The timeline is that we would start the kickstarter around the first of july so if it is funded, we might start the work in early august - an excellent time to do that sort of work.  We expect the build to take four weeks.  And then we need to test the temperatures over the winter.  So the final movie could be available sometime in march.  

Click on the thumbs up for this post if you would support this kickstarter.  

Here's a non-engineer's attempt at understanding the engineering of tihs:

a five feet deep pit, in a 20 square foot greenhouse (I'm making up that number), means 100 cubic feet of air in the pit, would mean 91.7 "inches" of air (cylinders of air (3.14x1"x1") x 1") per minute need to pass through the 1" diameter pipe if it's going to void the entire pit over the course of a (10-hour) daylight day through a 1" pipe.  That's 1.5 inches/second.  (= .085 miles per hour).This is just velocity, not energy I'm which seems possible to me but not easy.  Especially if the top of the greenhouse is already really baking hot in the hot sun, the pipe needs to be even hotter than that to expel its hotter air into the hot greenhouse, doesn't it?

Calculating the energy needed to draw the pit air up into the greenhouse area--is above my pay grade.  I would assume it's the enrgy needed to raise the temperature of that air in the pit so that it's hotter than what it's pushing aside in the greenhouse area. Minus the air getting cooled a bit by the pit air from below to make the differential larger?  

I'm getting lost here and it's late.  But these are the kinds of questions that might be worth making airtight answers to before kickstarting.

 Cold air is pulled from the lowest area, warmed and expelled into the greenhouse.  This means that the warmer air in the greenhouse is eventually pulled/pushed into the lowest area.  

I had missed that the first time around. Very curious about the dynamics of the warmest air being passively forced down.

At what point does this become more trouble than it's worth--ie, a septic and leach field is less metal and mateiral, less digging, same yield...?

Not sure that’s a relevant comparison, as a septic setup is designed primarily to treat black water, not grey. Greywater doesn’t have solids to settle out, nor pathogens to deal with. The bigger issue with greywater is toxins- bleach, detergents, chemicals, etc that get poured down drains. Plants (willow being a prime example) are really the best way to treat greywater. This project, as I understand it, is simply trying to make that possible in below zero weather, with a side bonus of growing edibles in the same greenhouse, but not in the same soil as that used to treat the greywater.

Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:I'm getting lost here and it's late.  But these are the kinds of questions that might be worth making airtight answers to before kickstarting.

I think that one way or another, we'll come up with something that will exceed an Oehler greenhouse.

A kickstarter just to document/video an Oehler build would be worth it by itself.  Incorporating wofati umbrella concepts and a grey water system makes is a lock for being awesome.  Having the extra experiment of a passive deep soil pipe is the frosting on the cake.  In my mind.

I think we can pick at the engineering once the design is presented and make it even awesomer.  But even if the pipe/casing thing doesn't work, the greenhouse in total should do better than an Oehler greenhouse.

Regarding the time of year, Paul could wait 6 months to do it, or he could do it now with the boots and resources and everything that's currently available.  It will still be in the ground next year for the full annualized experience.  So if it barely skates by over the winter of 2020/21 then it will be fun to watch it do even better after a year of preheating.

So my input is to go hit the gas!  We can do some engineering on the side but don't let that distract from the awesomeness of the entire project.

For those of you so keen on the design at this point:

  - I get the impression that you will want to support the kickstarter at the $100 level to get in on all the design meetings

  - at the moment, I think the most important design is the kickstarter design.   For those of you that supported my last kickstarter at $100, you got access to my kickstarter book.   So you see there is a LOT of work to get done yet!



We are scrambling for a new feature in the software that might enhance what we can do for earlybird goodies.   I have several hours working on this list with jennifer.  More on that later today.

The script, above, was recorded (twice) and josiah asked me to stand outside with my labcoat.

THIS IS MY OPINION.

It shouldn't be necessary to have every last minute detail of the design chiseled into stone before launching the kickstarter.

It's Wheaton Labs.  It's there for Paul's experiments.  
When you build things, sometimes you get into the project and realize it isn't going to work the way you thought.  That's OK.  You make changes and keep going.  Some of the stuff I've built recently didn't work out exactly as planned.  

We are currently hearing from a lot of the people that supplied earlybird goodies last year.  And we are hearing from people about new earlybird goodies.  Nicole is starting to put together a pretty page.  

Stuff that is now rock solid from last year:

- wild edibles movie (4 gift codes) sergei boutenko
- learning to spin on a drop spindle by raven ranson
- native bee guide
- ram pumps (4 gift codes)
- jacqueline freeman presentation (4 gift codes)
- animals in the landscape (4 gift codes)
- six ways to keep chickens
- money and finance (4 gift codes)
- composting pdf from alan booker
- chapters 1-10 of “green prosperity” by Thomas Elpel


stuff that is new this year that is now rock solid:

- Michael Judd--fungi chapter from edible landscaping book, pawpaws and permaculture chapter from his pawpaw book
- PEP badge tracker offered on thread (Ash Jackson)
- Ten things you can do now towards future homesteading - mini ebook by Kate Downham
- Davin Hoyt - desktop background image map of wheaton labs
- Permaculture Playing Cards ebook (4 gift codes)
- Care and Feeding of a Rocket Mass Heater microdoc - HD Streaming (4 gift codes)
- 21-podcast review of Sepp Holzer’s Permaculture
- Helen Atthowe evening presentation
- Permaculture thorns ebook draft
- Justin Rhodes WL tour  
- Matt Walker - Pre Port Secondary Air Tube as found in my cook stove and batch box plans, packaged as a segment from the Tiny Masonry Cook  Stove Plans in PDF format

Devaka is working on a new feature that should make a LOT of other stuff available as earlybird stuff.

stuff from last year where the conversation is still happening:

- stuff from “wild homesteading”
- grow a salad in your city apartment by rosemary hansen (?)
- rainwater stuff from lonny grafman?
- hugelkultur chapter from michael judd?
- uncle mud’s ez cob rocket stove?
- Water Retention Landscapes slides from Zach Weiss (?)
- Permaculture Applications for the Commercial Farm slides from Neil Bertrando
- Chapters 1-4 from Dairy Farming: The Beautiful Way by Adam Klaus
- Paul's Hugelkultur Q&A from the Eat Your Dirt Summit from Amanda Smith
- Module 1: "Dare to Dream" from the Garden Mastery Academy by Amanda Smith
- "The Chemerical Cookbook: Helping you detoxify your world" by Andrew Nisker of Take Action Films
- Ernie and Erica (Jen will contact)
- The Spring 2019 issue of Communities Magazine from ic.org
- Intro & Chapter 1 of "Together Resilient: Building Community in the Age of Climate Disruption" by Ma'ikwe Ludwig


We have 25 more new things for this year where the conversation is happening.   I am hoping that the earlybird list will be more than 40 things this year!  How cool is that?

I just got an email from Thomas Elpel giving me permission for his green prosperity book.  I updated the post above.

josiah asked me to stand outside with my labcoat

Off-topic but someone's going to say it eventually, so I'll get it over with: that urine looks pretty cloudy, so you might want to boil before drinking.

A similar picture appears in The Onion research archive:

Dog Urine Lowers Heart-Attack Risk, Say Snickering Researchers

Hmm.  I hadn't noticed before, but the pictures on the laptop shows Paul drinking the suspicious yellow liquid. I second the boil-before-you-drink suggestion, although it will probably affect the piquant flavor.

I've got the shiny page of Early Bird Goodies up! I've got a lot more to add to it from Paul's post here! So, expect a lot of updates as I make the images for each goodie.

List of Early Bird Goodies!

If you have something to add to our goodies list, post a reply to the Goodies thread!

Nicole,

Could you please add these to that list?

- ram pumps (4 gift codes)
- composting pdf from alan booker
- Michael Judd--fungi chapter from edible landscaping book, pawpaws and permaculture chapter from his pawpaw book
- PEP badge tracker offered on thread (Ash Jackson)
- Davin Hoyt - desktop background image map of wheaton labs
- Permaculture Playing Cards ebook (4 gift codes)
- Care and Feeding of a Rocket Mass Heater microdoc - HD Streaming (4 gift codes)
- 21-podcast review of Sepp Holzer’s Permaculture
- Helen Atthowe evening presentation
- Permaculture thorns ebook draft
- Justin Rhodes WL tour  
- Matt Walker - Pre Port Secondary Air Tube as found in my cook stove and batch box plans, packaged as a segment from the Tiny Masonry Cook  Stove Plans in PDF format

I started a new thread that is focused on the kickstarter and getting the kickstarter off the ground:

https://permies.com/t/141473/kickstarter-wofati-greenhouse

my suggestion... scale it up at least 10X

Mike Haasl wrote:
I think that one way or another, we'll come up with something that will exceed an Oehler greenhouse.

A kickstarter just to document/video an Oehler build would be worth it by itself.  Incorporating wofati umbrella concepts and a grey water system makes is a lock for being awesome.  Having the extra experiment of a passive deep soil pipe is the frosting on the cake.  In my mind.

I think we can pick at the engineering once the design is presented and make it even awesomer.  But even if the pipe/casing thing doesn't work, the greenhouse in total should do better than an Oehler greenhouse.

Regarding the time of year, Paul could wait 6 months to do it, or he could do it now with the boots and resources and everything that's currently available.  It will still be in the ground next year for the full annualized experience.  So if it barely skates by over the winter of 2020/21 then it will be fun to watch it do even better after a year of preheating.

So my input is to go hit the gas!  We can do some engineering on the side but don't let that distract from the awesomeness of the entire project.

Mike, thanks for this perspective. Of course this is another example of "the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, the next best time is today!".
The opportunity to get to observe it THIS WINTER is more valuable than designing the perfect passive vertical earth tubes (if they work).

Plus, if the earth tubes do work without the ATI fully charged, then the experiment will show two different ways to solve the problem

The opportunity to get to observe it THIS WINTER is more valuable than designing the perfect passive vertical earth tubes (if they work).

Excellent point! I hadn’t thought about it that way but it would give more of a baseline to compare to the winter of 2021 when it should be operating as hoped for with full thermal mass charged up.

Jennifer Richardson wrote:Josiah made a good catch--somehow we managed to only show half the cold sink in our scale drawings, instead of the full 5 feet. Here's a modified version:

Glad this shows the black pipe idea. I have been working on this for some time. It needs to be a double loop to work well. The air heated by the black pipe should be pulling hot air from the ceiling under the grow bed and into the bottom of the pipe in front of the window. The black pipe would continue down the back of the ceiling and under the grow bed to store heat there then empty into the well. The reverse cycle with radiant cooling at night the black pipe draws air from the well where cold air is falling from the window warms  it with the stored heat the cooled air is then wormed again as it rises to the ceiling. A deep well is not necessary just the air space in the 2.5 feet below the floor. Multiple loops can be installed different diameters could be used to test which is the most effective.

Beyond Glory (Ascended?) and damned-ably expensive
An professionally animated video summation of the building processes, detailing;
(1) issues intended to be resolved and objectives at the outset
(2) problems encountered and how they were resolved
(3) framework put in place to measure operation success
- featuring the return of fan favourite pop up cartoon character Bandana Paul, Paul+ and a currently envisioned "Future Paul".

I'd actually like to see point one animated and presented for the kickoff, but realise that won't be likely.

I think it'd be super funny to see the official Paul Wheaton Action Figure play a part in the video somewhere. Maybe if they make a mini diorama of the wofati greenhouse :D

I thought I would put this here instead of the new thread. When I think of things, I think of batteries. Storing carbon in the soil, storing electricity for a house, carbon stored in fossil fuels, and storing nutrients/carbon in a newly planted tree are all batteries. So what is Paul trying to build? A heat storing battery.

What else could we use this battery for? Livestock! For my purpose, I have ducks. I was thinking of rotating their coop/paddock around my wofati green house in the winter. How would the heat get to the coop? I don't know. A small or large pipe? With a fan? I thought it would be nice without a fan. Paul does talk about a vacuum rod that transfers heat. The rod could just stick in the mass or protrude into the greenhouse.

The animals don't have to be in a specific spot, just where this could work. Am I crazy or is this a good idea?

I'd be happy to build a digital temperature+humidity logging setup for this, sharing the plans + sending a couple to Wheaton Labs (for free).

luke iseman wrote:I'd be happy to build a digital temperature+humidity logging setup for this, sharing the plans + sending a couple to Wheaton Labs (for free).

Spiffy!   I would very much like to take you up on your offer!   I suppose the moment that the kickstarter is funded (if it is funded) then you could start to put that together!

Some much better drawings of what we think the final structure will look like! Thanks, Kyle!