CAD for Permaculture Tech Development

Alan Booker wrote:

Orin,

... I would be happy to help outline the beginning class and brainstorm about a couple of learning projects for students, but my schedule at the moment is so full that I can't take the lead. If you are interested in discussing things, just let me know and we can set up and call. Maybe a couple of other folks will want to jump in too...

Talyn Crafts wrote:Oooh neat!

I've been playing around with SketchUp - frustrated by lack of tree view and property editor.

I just downloaded FreeCAD, and started reading through the intro documentation for getting started in it.

I have minimal (6 months worth) experience using MAYA , mainly for simple to moderately complex 3D models built to scale and very simple animation experience.

Talyn Crafts wrote:
I find design super fun, but I still don't have knowledge of weight loads. I understand that triangles / arches (or a combination of them) are considered the strongest, and perhaps that is why diagonals are so often used in timber framing ?

Any resources for basic learning in that regard ? I'm always curious to know how engineers think!

Talyn Crafts wrote:
Should we create a thread to show off 'homework' or set up basic assignments to showcase skills learned ?

Orin Raichart wrote:

sure!  I like the basic assignment idea....are you seeing this as a single huge  thread for each person to post their completed task or multiple threads, as in each person posts one long thread for all their completed assignments?

Talyn Crafts wrote:Oh woah! Wow!

....

Talyn Crafts wrote:
Creating 3D models, even for those super experienced - still takes an investment of time, whereas pen and paper will always be faster.
The pen and paper and measurements (or reference photos with measurements) are necessary as a first step for FreeCAD, in terms of modifying pre-existing structures.

I thought this way until I needed to put plumbing, ducting, wiring, and lighting in a building. Suddenly my drawings became more and more detailed until I'd have to change scales  to a larger and larger paper size.

I still didn't think it mattered much until I found that being a 1/2" off during building meant that I could no longer put the pipe where it ABSOLUTELY must go.

If you've ever gone to a construction site where the office has the onsite's General Contractor office, you'll see stacks of blue prints all for the same building.
 Why so many drawings?
To catch all the details with out mistakes so every system fit together instead off occupying the same space (no, in general two objects of complexity will not work if they both suddenly occupy the same space...I think it's called an explosion).

But what really changed my mind was when I had to add a new energy system into the existing cool systems I had carefully arranged.  Uh-oh. Remember all those blue prints in the contractor's office. Yep. Gotta redraw almost every single one of those stacks of drawings if you don't want to run into problems during construction.

What a 3D <parametric> modeler does for you is astounding for the above issues I've just pointed out to your paper (and used to be my) drawings.  Want to see what happens to the whole system if you substitute 2x6's for 2x10's   How about 2x8's? You so discover you can't add 1" boards to your floor unless you tear out your rocket stove's barrel because it now interferes with you hot water stack and ceiling clearance  -not to mention any cold air outputs or low placed outlets of dc electricity.  oh, and wait that extra height makes your kitchen counter be above your kitchen window's sill -ooops.

A 3D parametric modeler make these issues obvious and makes changes to your designs soooooo much easier  -as in a week of drawing.

Talyn Crafts wrote:
Often 3D models (outside of just art / animation) have a particular utility to manufacture parts - but I don't think the goals / ethos of WL is aimed at 3D printing or CNC machines.

Potential Use Cases :
1. Designing completely new structures , like in terms of Ant Village or Deep Roots people. (Which makes sense why you and Grey are invested in this program.) ( Could be done with pen and paper.)

2. Designing potential structures, and asking for engineering or systems advice from other Permies more experienced in particular areas. ( Could be done with pen and paper.)

3. Using current working builds / systems , transferring into FreeCAD and offering those completed and tested designs into build-plans online ( for sale ? profits to WL and/or designer/builder ? )

4. Using someone else's 2D blueprints to transfer into FreeCAD, for the original 2D designer. (For people who are good at designing but not good at FreeCAD - but want to utilize a 3D model.)

1-  see my examples above.
2- asking good questions of the software first make it much easier to ask a pro  ....and to remind the pro of how his/her suggestions effect the other systems the pro isn't focused  on  -yeah, that happens alot.  The rocket stove engineer doesn't remember you've got a water pipe in a crucial area and that's why you choose not to adopt a certain embellishment of the rocket stove originally. Then you can say to the pro, I thought of that but I rejected it because of xyz...and the pro will say, oh.  or the pro will say, you're right but if you do efg, then you can get both the embllishment and xyz. If you don't remind the pro or can't because you don't know that xyz eliminates the embellishment because you don't have 3D sw which points out errors in minute details,  you might just nod your head to the pro and say, that's a good idea....all the while not knowing a gotcha is waiting for you in your own design and the new thing you excepted from the pro just eliminated another system you really needed.

so there's that.

3 and 4 both go to communications of your idea to others rather than solely about design being transferred into reality without any hidden gotchas or redesigns when you need to add a new system in.  Or design issues with substitute materials (oh yeah, you'll need to do substitutes some time or the other).

Yep, 3D Parametric modelers all have a steep learning curve ProE, N8 or any serious software from which you can gain both time and avoid mistakes require you sink a great deal of time in learning your modeler.  Then you can do things like thermal modeling with your shelter with a few modifications to your design  -can you do that on paper?  dunno, maybe

I love paper -make my prototype idea come to life with the feel of art.... I think on a white board/chalk board...
...but i do the final design on a 3D parametric modeler.

I can't make you love it.... but all it takes is trying to move the water lines only to find your air duct is in the way or wires, or .75" of your window, or now your door will never ever really close to open your eyes to the ease of design and needed design changes once you've learned a 3D Parametric Modeler

Try it on paper. Design a 12x12x12 shelter for me.
-It must have its longest wall (if you decide to move from the square) oriented solar south
-It must have a kitchen sink.
-It must have a rocket stove with at least 6 feet of bench mass
-It must have a cook stove (walker or lorenz wood style I don't care...biogas really isn't going to make it off of one person's food scraps)
-It must have a through the wall solar oven
-It must have hot water by both the sun and from your wood burning devices
-It must have simple lighting from a simple solar active system.
-the solar system's controller, inverter, and battery must be inside the structure
-It must have a very small shower (for space sake).
-It must have a hot box for cooking food brought up to boiling
-It must have a cold box for keeping food cool (usually passes through the floor into the earth's coolth).
-It must have a a large sleeping loft meaning two people can fit in it easliy
-It must have a solar air heater with the cold input right at floor height and a hot output 3' off the floor
-It must catch its water off the roof, pass the water through the wall at a minimum of 8' height to a 6" dia pipe running the length of atleast one wall and must hold 140 gallons. It must feed your water purifier and your shower.
-the overflow of the wall cistern must go into a outside cistern in such away it doesn't freeze.
-a foot pump to fill the wall cistern from the outside cistern in a manner it won't freeze.
-It must purify the water before it goes to the kitchen sink and hot water heater (the shower water doesn't need purification)
-It must have a grey water system which won't freeze in the winter
-It must have a desk and a work bench (I want the desk to face the window if I can get it)
-It must have a 12" dia cool air input for the summer not more than two feet off the floor in height on the north wall
-It must have a hot air exit of atleast 1296 square inches of area at the highest location on your south facing wall
-It must have one door
-It must have one window you can climb out of located some where away from the one door or a second door.
-It must have a kitchen window over the kitchen sink.
-It must have a kitchen counter atleast 42" long and not less than 26" wide.
-It must have a place for your clothes to be stored
-It must have a place for your food stores and your dishes
-It must have a place to strip off your muddy clothes and kick off your shoes

I want drawings that show me each wall, the floor, the roof, the inside ceiling
-there will need to be a drawing of the frame before the wall filler
-a drawing of your floor before you cover up the grey water exit pipes
-a drawing of how you are going to cover the roof and the exterior walls
-a drawing of how your interior walls, ceiling, and floor is going to be covered and finished.

Tell me when you start (as in date and time) and then
post it here or email it to me, twobirdstone at gmail
when you've finished.

I'm serious. Then I'll show you mine

BTW:  I like that you did a version for Bartell's Bunk House  -awesome!  not many people provided full 3D....and no one told you about where the berms on the walls are and are not.