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CAD for Permaculture Tech Development

 
instructor
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I’ve been talking to Paul about the need to increase the ability for the experiments at Wheaton Labs to be replicated to allow for faster iterative improvements and wider adoption. We basically need more regenerative engineers and tinkerers out there working on everything and sharing their results.

One obvious requirement for making this happen is consistently creating good technical drawings and making them available in a format everyone can easily use/modify/share.

So I suggested that Wheaton Labs adopt a standard Computer-Aided Design (CAD) platform and a bit more formal(ish) development process to accelerate forward velocity.

Paul asked me to throw everything into a thread so we can all brainstorm on it together. So my first thoughts are outlined below. Please jump in with thoughts/feedback/cunning plans for making it all work better.

The CAD Platform

The best choice for a Wheaton Labs CAD platform is probably FreeCAD (https://www.freecadweb.org/), which is a free, open-source 3D parametric modeler that is very modular and extensible.

It supports Finite Element Analysis (FEA), Geodata, Computer-Aided Manufacture (CAM) and CNC control, and some experimental Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD) tools, so it will handle most everything that might be needed.

FreeCAD reads/imports a lot of different file formats and runs on Windows, Mac, and Linux. You can download it from the website and install it with minimum fuss.

The Development Process

Given the constant flow of folks coming and going at Wheaton Labs, capturing and communicating design info has always been challenging. People with all different levels of build/fabrication skills show up to help with projects, a lot of great brainstorming happens, and then a lot of that information is lost when that group leaves.

It seems like a good idea to harness the power of virtual design teams that can help conceptualize, draw, and plan upcoming projects. This would have the big advantage of allowing design teams with all the required expertise to be quickly pulled together via online meetings, and for virtual design reviews to happen prior to first prototyping. The process could look something like this:

    1. A project concept is developed to the stage that it is added to the formal list of development projects. (Paul probably keeps this list since he has to figure out the logistics/funding/space)
    2. A call goes out on the forums for volunteers for the design team, along with a list of design expertise required. (Maybe there is a special forum created for Wheaton Labs design projects?)
    3. A Project Lead Designer is designated and schedules the online design team meetings.
    4. One or more CAD experts are included in the design team so that designs can be properly developed and documented.
    5. The CAD files are developed through the final design review stage, and are then used to create the Bill of Materials (BOM) for the actual build. At this point a fairly accurate cost can be estimated.
    6. A list of fabrication skills is produced so that a build team can be assembled. Once the build team is in place, the build can be scheduled.
    7. The first prototype is built and the CAD drawings are updated to reflect what was learned.
    8. Further development proceeds with updates and improvements documented using proper version control.

Yep, that’s more formal than how things are working right now, but it seems that the projects are getting big and complex enough that they need a bit more structure to happen efficiently.

CAD Training

There are a lot of folks with a wide variety of design skills hanging around on Permies, but not all of them are comfortable with CAD (and those that are may not know FreeCAD). So some sort of training program to create a small army of CAD ninjas is probably needed.

First we would need to find somebody who is both an expert with FreeCAD and also good with teaching it online. (I’m not a FreedCAD expert because I end up having to use AutoCAD most of the time. It is expensive, but it is what a lot of professional design firms use).

Set up three classes:
    1. Introduction to FreeCAD (6 weekly classes) – the basics of CAD with homework exercises between classes.
    2. Intermediate FreeCAD (6-8 weekly classes) – more advanced topics, maybe even getting to the point of doing exercises that involve working on real projects.
    3. Advanced FreeCAD (6-8 weekly classes) – learning to use some of tools like FEA and CAM/CNC, and also learning the Wheaton Labs design/documentation process well enough to act as the lead CAD designer on projects.

Make the classes free with a suggested donation to cover expenses. Graduates of all three classes become part of the Permies Design CADre (or some other name, maybe earn a cool badge of some sort).

Documentation Standards and Version Control

Needs to be figured out. Maybe a GIT repository or some other version control platform? It would be nice to have a central location to house design files, documentation, and pictures of each version of the prototypes.

 
steward
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Alan, did I ever tell you how great you are!  :)
I'm not sure where the time will come from, but I can't wait to sign up for CAD classes.  
 
gardener
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I’m excited to download it and get started!  I have some experience with AutoCAD, sketchup, and Visio, among other drawing and drafting programs.  Excited to play with it and maybe become and early expert.
 
gardener
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A basic course on freecadweb’s latest version 0.19 is being released on YouTube :

Part 1:



Part 2:



Will update on the series as new videos are released :)

Also here is the social media of the tutorial’s creator, who seems really cool and quite accesible, in case you want to contact him:
https://mobile.twitter.com/FlowwiesCorner
https://www.reddit.com/r/FlowwiesCorner/
 
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Josiah, Jennifer, Clayton and me met every Thursday night while I was in Boot Camp to teach ourselves FreeCAD.

None of us were expert and all of us had never used FreeCAD before, yet by the fourth week, we could draw basic 2D floor plans and were starting to expand these plans into 3D building plans.

While it is true I facilitated and mainly refused to give up when we hit a learning wall, everyone of us helped the group learn.

Since no one appears to be standing up saying they are both expert and willing to teach FreeCAD, I am willing to hold the FreeCAD class in Cooper Cabin each Thursday at 7:30pm.

Paul, do I have permission to hold a FreeCAD class in Cooper Cabin every Thursday night?
 
pollinator
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Alan Booker, I think this is a fabulous idea. Both the ability to "open source" the designs, and to "crowd source" the design work.

In my own experience, learning a "new" CAD program is easier the second, third program around... since the foundation is in place, and the concepts are similar, with slight variations between programs.

I'll give it a try later this week... looks like it might be similar to SolidWorks?
 
pollinator
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I'm in. I use CAD programs daily and I'm sure I can figure out FREECAD.
 
Alan Booker
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Andrés,

Thanks for the pointer to the videos. It looks like he has a whole series of videos in German and is just now starting to re-do them in English, having just the first two done. If he keeps on going, these videos could potentially become a good resource to augment a class.

Orin,

Thanks for volunteering to help with the first class. I would be happy to help outline the beginning class and brainstorm about a couple of learning projects for students, but my schedule at the moment is so full that I can't take the lead. If you are interested in discussing things, just let me know and we can set up and call. Maybe a couple of other folks will want to jump in too...

Kenneth,

I definitely agree that picking up additional CAD systems is much easier after you have learned your way around the first one. I suspect that if you are familiar with SolidWorks that FreeCAD will be pretty easy for you. Take a look and let me know what you think.

Kevin,

Welcome to the team! Play around a bit and see what you think. Let me know if you would like to jump in on the collaboration.
 
Orin Raichart
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For those of you who want to participate and are remote (not at WL),  please consider the following two items:

-if you get FreeCAD installed, that in itself would be a great start (if you fail at this, no worries, the group will help you);

-if you go to freecad.org and choose documention from the menu and work the getting started section on your fresh install, that would be a great place for me to start at.

When a group of people endeavor to learn something they know nothing about and no expert is present to teach them, this is the method I've found works well:

the group determines the facilitator, in this case me because I am making this happen (the group can fire me by not showing up);

the facilitator finds an appropriate tutorial. in this case, I am choosing to start here:

https://wiki.freecadweb.org/Manual:Traditional_2D_drafting

the facilitator makes sure everyone has the software installed, everyone has both the webpage open and freecad and then says, let's all try the first step now;

the facilitator makes everyone comfortable with asking any question and keeps an eye on both the over all group progess, the ones falling behind, and the ones who are learning very quickly;

those who are catching on more slowly, the facilitator will ask the faster ones to help some slow ones while helping the slow ones also;

when no one can seem to complete a certain step, the facilitator's job is to determine what is the right question in order to solve the problem which is keeping the group from completing the given step;

once the process picks up speed, everyone starts querying the group mind and contributing answers if they have them...the facilitator becomes less and less important.

see how lazy I am?  I get a group of people together to help me learn a complex task without even hiring an expert.  it's noisy, it's messy, it's fun, frustrating, and the victory of successfully solving an issue is awesome!

...I must say though, an expert certainly speeds up everyone's learning curve by a couple of orders of magnitudes....but with no expert, then three or more people can learn anything with a good tutorial as a referenced starting point and have some fun doing it.


 
Orin Raichart
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Alan Booker wrote:

Orin,

... I would be happy to help outline the beginning class and brainstorm about a couple of learning projects for students, but my schedule at the moment is so full that I can't take the lead. If you are interested in discussing things, just let me know and we can set up and call. Maybe a couple of other folks will want to jump in too...



Thanks Alan, as soon as we have people here doing their buildings in freecad, we can start to formalize a good freecad process.

 You've already done an expert job of outlining what that process should be and how it could be done.

Let's see if a core group evolves onsite who is good at freeCAD. Once we have the core group, we definitely will flesh out your well thought out freecad infrastructure outline.

Is there anyone here on permies.com who uses freecad daily? someone who has used it for a year? someone who has used it on a very detailed and extensive project? who would also be willing to teach it?


 
gardener
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I'm in. I've been recruited to model/draft the Solarium RMH for the RMH Jamboree.(https://permies.com/t/165295/rocket-mass-heater-solarium-wheaton)

I've only just opened FreeCAD. Thanks, Andrés, for the videos. 25 years of AutoCAD has me looking for the command line.
 
Orin Raichart
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Hi Ash,

While I have successfully facilitated face to face learning groups, I am not prepared to make sure all the online video conferencees are looked after correctly.

As this type of learning does not have a lecturer or teacher who does 80 to 90% of the talking, it requires a person who is constantly scanning the group looking for individuals who need help.

In person, this is done by noticing body language and computer interaction which I happen to be good at.

However, facilitating online remote attendees is something I have never done before. So if you want to consider how you might successfully do this and then become the remote people's facilitator, that would be awesome.

I have asked Opalyn and Kevin if they also would consider facilitating the remote people on Thursday night at 7:30pm.

In this manner, the remote online people can have one remote person looking out for online people who are stuck while I take care of the onsite people.

I used Purple Moosages for Kevin and Opalyn but I know you're a public youtuber so I am asking you here. If all three of you agree, then all the better, you can take turns being the remote facilitator.

 
Kevin Harbin
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I am installed now. Below are the Addons I installed. Any others that seem applicable for this effort?
3DfindIT
Assembly4
BIM
fasteners
lattice2
Manipulator
parts_library
timber
 
Orin Raichart
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Last night, Kyle, Grey, and myself worked on the 2D tutorial I mentioned above.

Grey made it to the point where he downloaded and imported a set of predrawn parts, selected a specific kitchen sink and inserted it into his drawning.

Kyle had installations issues which I believe will be resolved with using the App version download....since the download process was interrupted, we used wget the second time to ensure a complete install.

Usually the first meeting resolves any installation issues and gets people ready to draw the next meeting.

Since no one from the remote group agreed to facilitate for the remote group for the first meeting last night, the remote people are on their own until one of them are able.

Kevin, glad you got addons installed!
 
Orin Raichart
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To all the online people interested in joining the Thursday night FreeCAD learning group.

I have put the responsibility of the remote people's method of joining us on the remote people.  Seems harsh until you realize our Thursday nights are Boots' to recover for the day and therefore our Thursday night FreeCAD meetings are tenuous, bound together only by our own discipline we manage to muster when our bodies are saying, "sleep now".

The success of this group depends solely on the benefit the Boots get out of it.

So therefore, remote people, we'd love to have you even in the early stages, but it will only happen if you are determined, decide which of you will host the online people, what platform to video conference on, contact me or Grey to ask that one cell phone at the library be used (because that is the solution which requires the least time from the Boots at WL to get the online people to join us).

It appears there are three people who will be meeting on Thursday nights: Kyle, Grey, and me.

If you contact me before Thursday, I can install whatever video conferencing app on my phone and the url/group name that all of you online people have chosen.

Good luck, hope to hear from you before Thursday!!
 
pollinator
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I have 15000+ hours experience with SolidWorks, I'd love to learn FreeCAD and start helping how I can.  I can advise on technical drawings, GTOL, and mechanical manufacturing best practices.
 
Orin Raichart
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Grey, Kyle and myself met last night for FreeCaAD. Kyle got his new install working using the full App version...I looked at upgrading to .19 given the import issues on my older version.

Grey will be handling the Wheaton Labs FreeCAD sessions until I return in the spring.

If the online people who have shown interest in joining in on the Thursday night sessions have selected a person amongst their ranks to video conference the group, please contact Grey.
 
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Oooh neat!

I've been playing around with SketchUp - frustrated by lack of tree view and property editor.

I just downloaded FreeCAD, and started reading through the intro documentation for getting started in it.

I have minimal (6 months worth) experience using MAYA , mainly for simple to moderately complex 3D models built to scale and very simple animation experience.

I find design super fun, but I still don't have knowledge of weight loads. I understand that triangles / arches (or a combination of them) are considered the strongest, and perhaps that is why diagonals are so often used in timber framing ?

Any resources for basic learning in that regard ? I'm always curious to know how engineers think!

Should we create a thread to show off 'homework' or set up basic assignments to showcase skills learned ?
 
Orin Raichart
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Talyn Crafts wrote:Oooh neat!

I've been playing around with SketchUp - frustrated by lack of tree view and property editor.

I just downloaded FreeCAD, and started reading through the intro documentation for getting started in it.

I have minimal (6 months worth) experience using MAYA , mainly for simple to moderately complex 3D models built to scale and very simple animation experience.


glad you have modeling skills to bring to the table to be sharpened!
Sketchup is easy but it isn't a parametric modeler in 3D or 2D.
FreeCAD has a serious learning curve -Grey is the best resource onsite at Wheaton Labs currently.

Talyn Crafts wrote:
I find design super fun, but I still don't have knowledge of weight loads. I understand that triangles / arches (or a combination of them) are considered the strongest, and perhaps that is why diagonals are so often used in timber framing ?

Any resources for basic learning in that regard ? I'm always curious to know how engineers think!


I am going to tell you a dirty little secret Mike H. will confirm: engineers use tables and memorized rules of thumb when it comes to loads

Since it is you that is asking, here's an answer you might find a little more interesting:
-physicist teach free body diagrams (and engineers have to take this course);
-during this course, you learn about moments of inertia around points;
-you also learn about how to identify the center of gravity not just for a single body (like a log or board), but also for multiple bodies attached to each other varies ways (tension, compression, friction).

The cool part is your body is a great measuring device of center of gravity and moments of inertia ....and you can start to intuitively feel what is going on in a design by looking at the drawing.

How to develop this art then?
-pick up an 8 foot long 2x4 and perfectly balance it on your shoulder  that balance point is its center of gravity.
-while it is balanced on your shoulder, notice how much effort it takes and the pressure on your shoulder.
-now put that 2x4 on the ground and stand at one end of the 2x4.
-at that one end of the 2x4, reach down and pick up the 2x4 on the last two hand widths of the 2x4.
-now try and hold that 2x4 parallel  with the ground with the 8' side horizontal rather than vertical.

notice how much pressure your two hands are exterting in the attempt to pick up the 2x4, notice how much efffort you are expending.

In the first case where you have it balanced on your shoulder at its center of gravity, you have a sum total of zero moments of inertia around its center of gravity.

In the second case, your two hands at the very end of the 8' span is trying to over come the moment of inertia the 2x4 exerts around the point of where you and the 2x4 are joined. This moment of inertia is very large and very noticable.

if these forces you are feeling in both cases are strong enough to break your 2x4 or log, your load is too great.

If your moments of inertia are not zero, your total structure will rotate in that direction and hit the ground.

Center of gravity can be tricky in a non-uniform body ( a 2x4 is  uniform). Ever pick up a rock that always wants to roll out of your hands no matter how you hold it?  That is because its center of gravity is a point outside of the rock itself!

...anyways, if you actually try this and play a little bit with it, then free body diagrams will suddenly make sense intuitively and the math will simply prove what you body will feel from the diagram.

this is the difference between an engineer and a physicist: the engineer doesn't have to think because s/he uses standard uniform materials for which tables and rules of thumb work great;  physicist works with no such assumptions and therefore must find answers for reality which may not be so uniform (I gave you a method some physicist use but then translate into math for engineers).

so in natural building, you can spend a lot of time trying to make your materials as uniform as possible or you can learn a little free body diagram analysis and train your own body's intuition.

if you come to the Lab as planned and are interested, I'll hold a free body diagram class.

Talyn Crafts wrote:
Should we create a thread to show off 'homework' or set up basic assignments to showcase skills learned ?


sure!  I like the basic assignment idea....are you seeing this as a single huge  thread for each person to post their completed task or multiple threads, as in each person posts one long thread for all their completed assignments?
 
Talyn Crafts
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Oh woah! Wow!

Your explanation about center of gravity makes so much sense.
As an artist, this is something I studied extensively in figure drawing and animation. Different application but same principle.
Also something I've experienced deeply in yoga / movement arts / modeling.

It is extremely exciting that I could potentially build designs by further enhancing my mind / body connection, in this method you mention of 'free body'.  
I would definitely sign up for a class on that!

Orin Raichart wrote:

sure!  I like the basic assignment idea....are you seeing this as a single huge  thread for each person to post their completed task or multiple threads, as in each person posts one long thread for all their completed assignments?



I think either way would work!
One large thread just for basic assignments would work well for beginners to suss out issues and ask for advice and gain encouragement from others.
I could also see each person who is committed to learning FreeCAD creating their own personal project thread, and in a way might eventually showcase a particular style / skill that others might like enough to hire them or collaborate with them. 🍯

Before being able to brainstorm on a basic assignment list ;

I'm trying to fully grasp the benefit of FreeCAD for WL.

Creating 3D models, even for those super experienced - still takes an investment of time, whereas pen and paper will always be faster.
The pen and paper and measurements (or reference photos with measurements) are necessary as a first step for FreeCAD, in terms of modifying pre-existing structures.

Often 3D models (outside of just art / animation) have a particular utility to manufacture parts - but I don't think the goals / ethos of WL is aimed at 3D printing or CNC machines.

Potential Use Cases :
1. Designing completely new structures , like in terms of Ant Village or Deep Roots people. (Which makes sense why you and Grey are invested in this program.) ( Could be done with pen and paper.)

2. Designing potential structures, and asking for engineering or systems advice from other Permies more experienced in particular areas. ( Could be done with pen and paper.)

3. Using current working builds / systems , transferring into FreeCAD and offering those completed and tested designs into build-plans online ( for sale ? profits to WL and/or designer/builder ? )

4. Using someone else's 2D blueprints to transfer into FreeCAD, for the original 2D designer. (For people who are good at designing but not good at FreeCAD - but want to utilize a 3D model.)
 
Orin Raichart
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Talyn Crafts wrote:Oh woah! Wow!

....

Talyn Crafts wrote:
Creating 3D models, even for those super experienced - still takes an investment of time, whereas pen and paper will always be faster.
The pen and paper and measurements (or reference photos with measurements) are necessary as a first step for FreeCAD, in terms of modifying pre-existing structures.



I thought this way until I needed to put plumbing, ducting, wiring, and lighting in a building. Suddenly my drawings became more and more detailed until I'd have to change scales  to a larger and larger paper size.

I still didn't think it mattered much until I found that being a 1/2" off during building meant that I could no longer put the pipe where it ABSOLUTELY must go.

If you've ever gone to a construction site where the office has the onsite's General Contractor office, you'll see stacks of blue prints all for the same building.
 Why so many drawings?
To catch all the details with out mistakes so every system fit together instead off occupying the same space (no, in general two objects of complexity will not work if they both suddenly occupy the same space...I think it's called an explosion).

But what really changed my mind was when I had to add a new energy system into the existing cool systems I had carefully arranged.  Uh-oh. Remember all those blue prints in the contractor's office. Yep. Gotta redraw almost every single one of those stacks of drawings if you don't want to run into problems during construction.

What a 3D <parametric> modeler does for you is astounding for the above issues I've just pointed out to your paper (and used to be my) drawings.  Want to see what happens to the whole system if you substitute 2x6's for 2x10's   How about 2x8's? You so discover you can't add 1" boards to your floor unless you tear out your rocket stove's barrel because it now interferes with you hot water stack and ceiling clearance  -not to mention any cold air outputs or low placed outlets of dc electricity.  oh, and wait that extra height makes your kitchen counter be above your kitchen window's sill -ooops.

A 3D parametric modeler make these issues obvious and makes changes to your designs soooooo much easier  -as in a week of drawing.


Talyn Crafts wrote:
Often 3D models (outside of just art / animation) have a particular utility to manufacture parts - but I don't think the goals / ethos of WL is aimed at 3D printing or CNC machines.

Potential Use Cases :
1. Designing completely new structures , like in terms of Ant Village or Deep Roots people. (Which makes sense why you and Grey are invested in this program.) ( Could be done with pen and paper.)

2. Designing potential structures, and asking for engineering or systems advice from other Permies more experienced in particular areas. ( Could be done with pen and paper.)

3. Using current working builds / systems , transferring into FreeCAD and offering those completed and tested designs into build-plans online ( for sale ? profits to WL and/or designer/builder ? )

4. Using someone else's 2D blueprints to transfer into FreeCAD, for the original 2D designer. (For people who are good at designing but not good at FreeCAD - but want to utilize a 3D model.)



1-  see my examples above.
2- asking good questions of the software first make it much easier to ask a pro  ....and to remind the pro of how his/her suggestions effect the other systems the pro isn't focused  on  -yeah, that happens alot.  The rocket stove engineer doesn't remember you've got a water pipe in a crucial area and that's why you choose not to adopt a certain embellishment of the rocket stove originally. Then you can say to the pro, I thought of that but I rejected it because of xyz...and the pro will say, oh.  or the pro will say, you're right but if you do efg, then you can get both the embllishment and xyz. If you don't remind the pro or can't because you don't know that xyz eliminates the embellishment because you don't have 3D sw which points out errors in minute details,  you might just nod your head to the pro and say, that's a good idea....all the while not knowing a gotcha is waiting for you in your own design and the new thing you excepted from the pro just eliminated another system you really needed.

so there's that.

3 and 4 both go to communications of your idea to others rather than solely about design being transferred into reality without any hidden gotchas or redesigns when you need to add a new system in.  Or design issues with substitute materials (oh yeah, you'll need to do substitutes some time or the other).

Yep, 3D Parametric modelers all have a steep learning curve ProE, N8 or any serious software from which you can gain both time and avoid mistakes require you sink a great deal of time in learning your modeler.  Then you can do things like thermal modeling with your shelter with a few modifications to your design  -can you do that on paper?  dunno, maybe

I love paper -make my prototype idea come to life with the feel of art.... I think on a white board/chalk board...
...but i do the final design on a 3D parametric modeler.

I can't make you love it.... but all it takes is trying to move the water lines only to find your air duct is in the way or wires, or .75" of your window, or now your door will never ever really close to open your eyes to the ease of design and needed design changes once you've learned a 3D Parametric Modeler

Try it on paper. Design a 12x12x12 shelter for me.
-It must have its longest wall (if you decide to move from the square) oriented solar south
-It must have a kitchen sink.
-It must have a rocket stove with at least 6 feet of bench mass
-It must have a cook stove (walker or lorenz wood style I don't care...biogas really isn't going to make it off of one person's food scraps)
-It must have a through the wall solar oven
-It must have hot water by both the sun and from your wood burning devices
-It must have simple lighting from a simple solar active system.
-the solar system's controller, inverter, and battery must be inside the structure
-It must have a very small shower (for space sake).
-It must have a hot box for cooking food brought up to boiling
-It must have a cold box for keeping food cool (usually passes through the floor into the earth's coolth).
-It must have a a large sleeping loft meaning two people can fit in it easliy
-It must have a solar air heater with the cold input right at floor height and a hot output 3' off the floor
-It must catch its water off the roof, pass the water through the wall at a minimum of 8' height to a 6" dia pipe running the length of atleast one wall and must hold 140 gallons. It must feed your water purifier and your shower.
-the overflow of the wall cistern must go into a outside cistern in such away it doesn't freeze.
-a foot pump to fill the wall cistern from the outside cistern in a manner it won't freeze.
-It must purify the water before it goes to the kitchen sink and hot water heater (the shower water doesn't need purification)
-It must have a grey water system which won't freeze in the winter
-It must have a desk and a work bench (I want the desk to face the window if I can get it)
-It must have a 12" dia cool air input for the summer not more than two feet off the floor in height on the north wall
-It must have a hot air exit of atleast 1296 square inches of area at the highest location on your south facing wall
-It must have one door
-It must have one window you can climb out of located some where away from the one door or a second door.
-It must have a kitchen window over the kitchen sink.
-It must have a kitchen counter atleast 42" long and not less than 26" wide.
-It must have a place for your clothes to be stored
-It must have a place for your food stores and your dishes
-It must have a place to strip off your muddy clothes and kick off your shoes

I want drawings that show me each wall, the floor, the roof, the inside ceiling
-there will need to be a drawing of the frame before the wall filler
-a drawing of your floor before you cover up the grey water exit pipes
-a drawing of how you are going to cover the roof and the exterior walls
-a drawing of how your interior walls, ceiling, and floor is going to be covered and finished.

Tell me when you start (as in date and time) and then
post it here or email it to me, twobirdstone at gmail
when you've finished.

I'm serious. Then I'll show you mine

BTW:  I like that you did a version for Bartell's Bunk House  -awesome!  not many people provided full 3D....and no one told you about where the berms on the walls are and are not.  

 
Andrés Bernal
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Posts: 517
Location: Colombia - Tropical dry forest
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