Any Lord of the Rings fans out there (or a crazy idea that fell into my head)

I was reading the fellowship of the rings and one sentence, in particular, captured my imagination.  I want to make the thing JRR Tolkien describes.  

But first, let's see if you know who this character is.



Now that you've voted, here is a link to learn more about Goldberry



And this is the line that captivated me: "her gown was green, as green as young reeds, shot with silver like beads of dew; and her belt was of gold, shaped like a chain of flag-lilies set with the pale-blue eyes of forget-me-nots"

I understand why they didn't put Tom and Goldberry in the movies, but I always felt it was a shame as that was by far my favourite part of the book.  I think it would be loads of fun to make a dress like this.  But I suspect I would have to weave the fabric myself to create the "shot with silver like beads of dew".  It would be fun and would make great videos to document how it's done.

But... the budget to buy the yarn needed is CRAZY scary.  
I wish I could put another Apple Poll here, so I'll do the poor man's poll.  Please be generous with your thumbs up on the next few posts.  

Or maybe you have some suggestions?

I want to see you make this dress.
but I have no money, I'm cheering you on.

I want to see you make this dress.
Crowdfunding is the solution.  I want to give you money towards this project.   How much do you need?

Sounds great.  I would love to see these videos.
Would I get anything extra if I put money towards this project?

sounds cool, but my interest depends on how much money you are thinking of spending on this.

Videos like this are important, but please focus more on the decision making process and how things get done (half tutorial half this is what I made)

I like the videos that focus on the story, I don't care about that technical stuff

One of my favorite quotes from the Fellowship is in Lothlorien.

As Frodo prepared to follow him, he laid his hand upon the tree beside the ladder: never before had he been so suddenly and so keenly aware of the feel and texture of a tree's skin and of the life within it. He felt a delight in wood and the touch of it, neither as forester nor as carpenter; it was the delight of the living tree itself.

This is a sad passage for me, for it seems to say that we have lost not one but two things. We have lost the delight in the living tree. And we have also lost the delight that the forester or carpenter had in it.

This dress is one of the few dresses I loved as a child, although I haven't seen any artistic representations I feel match my imagination of the dress well.  For someone who loves textiles, I'm not that big into clothing.  But finally, I think I have the skill to attempt this project.  I'm still a bit unsteady with the sewing element, but maybe it could work.  It's worth a shot.

The dress I imagine would be a two-tone green with occasional hints of silver yarn that is thicker or textured or both, shining here and there on the fabric.

The dress in my dreams is wool because Goldberry represents the changing of the seasons and the time the hobbits meet her is the fall.  

The shape would be closer to a medieval fitted kirtle with a flowing skirt, linen lining, and maybe even Tudor style with a square neckline and tie-on sleeves which were common then.  The dress could be worn with short sleeves or I could make extra sleeves for everyday and fancy sleeves for fancy days.  

the "shots" of dew (shot means a pass of the shuttle when weaving) would be some silk I would handspun to get the texture I want.

...

The videos would go into more depth about the process than I normally do for my youtube videos.  There would need to be several videos.  

one for spinning the silk yarn
one for sampling the weaving
one for designing the dress
one for weaving and making the dress

Each would focus on the how, but also the choices and the why.  

...

I could spin and dye the yarn, but that would add a year or two to the project.  It also makes it a bit more daunting to viewers.  My goal for making videos is to inspire people to try things, but if they feel they have to start by pulling the lamb out of the mum for every little piece of clothing, then meh.  That's too much.  

That said, buying the yarn... well, I'm looking for cheaper options.  It is a lot of yarn.  preliminary calculations suggest I would need about 25,125meters of yarn (plus more for sampling and shipping and tax and...).  I need to sit down and do the proper calculations to know for sure.  But then again, I can't do that until I weave the samples and get the dress design.  

I'm putting this ko-fi link to this project here just in case there is enough interest.  Do people love Goldberry?  Would weaving and sewing a dress like this make the world a better place?  Would it inspire people to make clothes and try new things?  Or is this something to put back into the dream part of my brain until some later day?  I don't know.  That's why I'm asking.

Tom and Goldberry's relationship seems a bit sanitized in that illustration. According to Tolkien's Adventures of Tom Bombadil in the Tolkien Reader, she endured the standard guy-courtship of the day. Physically assaulted, ordered to abandon her mother, kidnapped to Tom's house and subjected to an immediate wedding with only Badgers as legal witness (apparently, her mother was not invited; instead left to "sigh on the riverbank"). The rest of her days were spent confined to the house, serving food and occasionally slipping out to do laundry. Pretty standard fairy stuff.

But the dress is a pretty cool consolation prize!

Dc Stewart wrote:Tom and Goldberry's relationship seems a bit sanitized in that illustration. According to Tolkien's Adventures of Tom Bombadil in the Tolkien Reader, she endured the standard guy-courtship of the day. Physically assaulted, ordered to abandon her mother, kidnapped to Tom's house and subjected to an immediate wedding with only Badgers as legal witness (apparently, her mother was not invited; instead left to "sigh on the riverbank"). The rest of her days were spent confined to the house, serving food and occasionally slipping out to do laundry. Pretty standard fairy stuff.

Sounds like something out of the Brothers Grimm

drat, the library doesn't have that book.  I'll give it a read.

It might be an element to add to the videos.  

After reading the description of the dress in question, and remembering absolutely nothing of what I've read in Tolkien's stories themselves, I decided to see what was available in terms of shot fabric of green and silver.
Because reasons. And I like playing with fabric.

There was a best match I found in my one click search. I know green and silver is a popular mix of colors and that double shot fabric is available in a mix of fibers and weaves, so I'm not concerned that there isn't a possible good match out there.
I found this one fabric and, because I like people who play with fiber, am more than willing to throw some money at someone willing to play with this idea. (And do better than a paisley. Please.)

I'm more interested in the pattern to be used. The picture is of a basic kirtle/cotehardie dress. Those tend to be princess seamed, so long narrow panels of fabric, within the 15" width that was popular for certain early looms, worked really well. The girdle/belt is a separate piece, but I don't know if the collar would be as depicted in the picture, or detail on the undergarment, or something like a necklace worn on top of everything. Guessing that the picture is more modern really throws all my guesses off.

I like this project and hope you get a chance to do it.  

Kristine Keeney wrote:After reading the description of the dress in question, and remembering absolutely nothing of what I've read in Tolkien's stories themselves, I decided to see what was available in terms of shot fabric of green and silver.
Because reasons. And I like playing with fabric.

One of the things I love about textiles is the vocabulary.  How specific each term is - and how the terms vary over time and place.   Even today,  attempts to standardized the vocabulary has failed.   And I love that variation persists as it honours history.   But it does get confusing when talking about the past.

Today's language, in North America at least, shot fabric is going to be something like shot silk, which sort of shimmers in two different colours.  But that doesn't look like green with dew drops to me.  

There are also different dyeing techniques that have shot in them, like a 'shot of colour' kind of thing.  They aren't all that common in England in Tolkien's day

Whereas the word 'shot' in (parts of) England during Tolkien's time would refer to the passing of the shuttle.  It means to me that the silver dew drops are somehow incorporated into the weft, but not as the main thread.  

I'm almost thinking overshot would be closest to what we would call it today, but not an overall pattern.  Instead, the 'shots' of dewdrops would be semi-regularly scattered across the cloth, maybe an inch or so apart.  

I've got two big projects taking up my month, but I'm hoping to play with some cloth design come the end of March.  Seeing them in my head and figuring out how to make them work on a four-shaft loom is something else entirely.  I can probably do some playing with cotton to see if my idea would work.  It wouldn't give me the information I need to make the cloth, but enough information to calculate the samples.  

Kristine Keeney wrote:

I'm more interested in the pattern to be used. The picture is of a basic kirtle/cotehardie dress. Those tend to be princess seamed, so long narrow panels of fabric, within the 15" width that was popular for certain early looms, worked really well. The girdle/belt is a separate piece, but I don't know if the collar would be as depicted in the picture, or detail on the undergarment, or something like a necklace worn on top of everything. Guessing that the picture is more modern really throws all my guesses off.

I like this project and hope you get a chance to do it.  

I have a princess seam pattern where the panels are about 13" wide, so the fabric would need to be woven at about 20" wide before fulling.  Looms in Europe were often wider than that for the time periods I'm looking at.

I'm thinking of going more with a kirtle style that predates princess seams in Europe.  They have four panels plus gores for the skirt.  The seams are side and centre front and back, and the shaping is entirely in the seam.  These are usually quite tight to provide shaping and bust support and has spiral lacing in the front.
This video describes the drafting of the pattern.



The dress I would make would be a little less Romantic Fantasy (like the painting above) and more practical history bounding.  There's no point making a dress if I don't wear it.  

If there is a $1 level then I'd definitely back this. If there are some good downloadable/non streaming rewards at higher levels then I'd consider backing at a higher level.

To make "dew drops sparkling" maybe some embroidery and bead work. The cheep glass beads with a mirror finish inside would have a very dew drop look or more in period seed pearls. My sister has made several kirtles, silk, cotton corduroy, and wool. The wool was a light suit weight fabric and had the benefit of quite a bit of stretch for a woven fabric. So even though the pattern had an under arm zipper she never needed to use it getting the dress off and on. The other kirtles were less forgiving.

This is one of those strange serendipitous moments. Yesterday hubby read me a thing about how one of Tolkien's editors tried to get him to change dwarves to dwarfs becaus e the Oxford English Dictionary said so and Tolkien replied "I wrote the dictionary." I just read a lengthy article about his contributions to compiling words that started with w and how that influenced his later writings. It may be a sign that you should do the thing... you decide.

              https://textart.io/art/tag/lord-of-the-rings/1 (just for fun)
               

r ranson wrote:

And this is the line that captivated me: "her gown was green, as green as young reeds, shot with silver like beads of dew; and her belt was of gold, shaped like a chain of flag-lilies set with the pale-blue eyes of forget-me-nots"
 

Or maybe you have some suggestions?

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't realize you were asking for weaving ideas. I thought you were looking for fabric, and thinking you'd have to weave it yourself to get the look. I totally missed the point: You WANT to weave the fabric! Oops. I'm totally jelly that you have that skill. Badass!
There's this Indian fabric, cotton woven with metallic threads. This particular link shows metallic threads that may be way too numerous, but I have a scarf made of a similar fabric that is lightweight cotton with a few threads going through, just enough to give the impression of being shot with silver.
The fabric is probably too lightweight to hold up on its own as a dress but you could underline it with an inexpensive fabric to give it body and opacity, and add color.
I'm a historical costumer so I have tons of experience trying to get a specific look.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1424234289/indian-gauze-glitter-starry-colorful?ref=share_v4_lx

Beautiful project!
Do you want it to be real silver thread or would it be fine with silver dyed silk? I believe it shines too.

It's a fairy tale so what the dress is made of can be anything regardless of weather.
Can wool be supple enough to get the drape you see in the skirt she is holding in one hand?

I should think you’d have to use mithril for the silver threads, but that’s uncommonly expensive.
The story of t. Bombadil & Goldberry was an unfinished masterpiece that deserved to be told more completely.

Abraham Palma wrote:Beautiful project!
Do you want it to be real silver thread or would it be fine with silver dyed silk? I believe it shines too.

I was thinking silk as it has a nice shimmer. I might have to spin the yarn to get the right texture.

I told my girlfriend about this thread and she said 'That's awesome, Goldberry is fucking cool'. I always thought if we ever got married we'd wear dresses like hers.

To weave a fabric that would be suitable for a dress, I would want to have a thin enough yarn that can be woven at 24 or more ends per inch (epi) (that's how many warp threads are in one inch).  30 epi would be better.

To avoid paying duty, it would be best if I can get this yarn within Canada.

I strongly feel that wool would give the best results for the main body of the fabric.  Worsted spun would be more durable and less fuzzy.

https://www.camillavalleyfarm.com/knit/worstedspunwool.htm is the most affordable option so far.

For sampling, I would want to get 4 to 5 colours to find the combination that would give the best colour.  I imagine blending two colours would give a really nice look.

I need enough to try different structures and densities of the cloth to see what gives the results we're looking for.

When the weaving is finished I full the cloth which causes it to shrink quite a bit.  Wool can shrink up to 40% in this process, but I'm expecting 20%.  We also have loom waste which is an extra length of yarn the loom needs to be able to hold on to the yarn at the start and stop of the cloth.  On my loom this averages 2 to 3 feet.  For the gown itself, I'm imagining 10-12 yard warp.  I don't know if this would create enough fabric for sleeves.  

That is a lot of yarn.  

I think a Goldberry dress would be so interesting to make!
I have been reading and rereading the Lord of the Rings for most of my life. I have tinkered in making wire elven crowns, hairstyles, and learned a little bit of Tengwar script. My biggest project has been with a group of online friends, "rewriting" the story in our own words. Each of us has a handful of characters and we write portions of the tale from their perspective. It is so fun!

I started reading this thread. First skipped the poll, because it was way too long ago I read Tolkien (and it was a Dutch translation).
Then I thought ... no, this is not for me. I'm not a fan of fairytales anymore. But I went on reading.
Now I think: it isn't for me, but my daughter would love such a project. She makes fairytale dresses (and more fairytale stuff) too. She's so creative! One problem: she had learning problems, did not learn to read and write well, she can't read English.

r ranson wrote:

Kristine Keeney wrote:After reading the description of the dress in question, and remembering absolutely nothing of what I've read in Tolkien's stories themselves, I decided to see what was available in terms of shot fabric of green and silver.
Because reasons. And I like playing with fabric.

One of the things I love about textiles is the vocabulary.  How specific each term is - and how the terms vary over time and place.   Even today,  attempts to standardized the vocabulary has failed.   And I love that variation persists as it honours history.   But it does get confusing when talking about the past.

Today's language, in North America at least, shot fabric is going to be something like shot silk, which sort of shimmers in two different colours.  But that doesn't look like green with dew drops to me.  

There are also different dyeing techniques that have shot in them, like a 'shot of colour' kind of thing.  They aren't all that common in England in Tolkien's day

Whereas the word 'shot' in (parts of) England during Tolkien's time would refer to the passing of the shuttle.  It means to me that the silver dew drops are somehow incorporated into the weft, but not as the main thread.  

I'm almost thinking overshot would be closest to what we would call it today, but not an overall pattern.  Instead, the 'shots' of dewdrops would be semi-regularly scattered across the cloth, maybe an inch or so apart.  

I've got two big projects taking up my month, but I'm hoping to play with some cloth design come the end of March.  Seeing them in my head and figuring out how to make them work on a four-shaft loom is something else entirely.  I can probably do some playing with cotton to see if my idea would work.  It wouldn't give me the information I need to make the cloth, but enough information to calculate the samples.  

Someone else mentioned glass beads, which would in fact give the literal appearance of dewdrops, and it could be a nice embellishment on the finished garment. As a trim around the hem, or neckline.

What first came to mind to me however, was slub fabric. Where your silvery silk might have slubs that would be more pronounced in the weaving. Not sure if weft only? or both warp and weft? seems like it might depend on how it would look in the garment and how wide/long the pattern could be cut from it? I'm imagining vertical slubs that might look as if they are "dripping" off the dress... but that might also depend on the yarn if the slubs are short or long...
Also wondering if slubs could be knots instead? what a PITA to tie yards and yards of knotted yarn!!! it would let you determine the frequency of the dewdrops though.

I think beads would be fun to play with.

Not sure how well they stand up to wear and tear.  I don't have any occasion to wear a fancy dress and for that much effort, I want something I can wear.  Sort of fantasy-practical-historybounding kind of deal.

That's why I'm thinking of spinning the silk yarn to be textured.  Either slubs or wrapped like a caterpillar yarn.  Thin and thick probably, but I would need to sample.  

r ranson wrote:I think beads would be fun to play with.

Not sure how well they stand up to wear and tear.  I don't have any occasion to wear a fancy dress and for that much effort, I want something I can wear.  Sort of fantasy-practical-historybounding kind of deal.

That's why I'm thinking of spinning the silk yarn to be textured.  Either slubs or wrapped like a caterpillar yarn.  Thin and thick probably, but I would need to sample.  

Glass beads can be wore as an accessory, for the ocassion. It may even be attached in a way that suggests -more stylized- shapes of the body.

The kirtle pattern sounds just like the particolored velveteen cotehardie, the black velveteen cotehardie, and the rust velveteen cotehardie/kirtle I wore when we lived in Connecticut. It's, generally, too warm here for anything that sturdy, at least indoors.
Yeah, same difference (and here come the historic researchers with their bats! Duck and cover!).
I worked at a fabric store, had a friend who was very into the "10 foot rule", and had a grand time with the "creative" part of the society.

It's my understanding that the "shot" part (the iridescence) is due to a weft in one color and a warp in another, allowing the fabric to catch the light beautifully. I don't weave, yet, but have worked around fabric enough to be able to tell a cotton from a wool from a plastic nightmare with a scrunch, so may be confused on that.
I love the idea of weaving in a sprinkling of dew drops, maybe a slubbed silk?

The beadwork makes for a nice alternative. If nothing else, it's something the rest of us might be able to try, should we loose ourselves in the idea of recreating a fantasy dress. It'd be like going to a comic book convention and hanging out with a bunch of different interpretations of what a popular hero looks like.  

r ranson wrote:I think beads would be fun to play with.

Not sure how well they stand up to wear and tear.  I don't have any occasion to wear a fancy dress and for that much effort, I want something I can wear.  Sort of fantasy-practical-historybounding kind of deal.

That's why I'm thinking of spinning the silk yarn to be textured.  Either slubs or wrapped like a caterpillar yarn.  Thin and thick probably, but I would need to sample.  

Well, the main dress could be made of something pretty and sturdy, with a nice net overdress or something sheer that could hold the beads. That way, the beads would be for special occasions, while the dress is useful and can be worn whenever.
Beads do not stand up to wear and are a PITA to wash with any regularity. It's best if water is only in a glass and for drinking, not for washing anything beaded.
Source: Trust me, Bro.

I'm thinking slubbed yarn is your friend. You could also embroider the dew drops on, if the slubbed isn't working.

Yeah, it's a lot of very fine yarn and a lot of work to set up. Is it possible to get a quote on the amount of yarn, in the quality you're wanting so we can maybe set  up a "If everyone chips in $15" situation? I'll toss a few bucks in the ring for a Good Person to make a once-in-a-lifetime dress.

r ranson wrote: ...
That's why I'm thinking of spinning the silk yarn to be textured.  Either slubs or wrapped like a caterpillar yarn.  Thin and thick probably, but I would need to sample.  

You can do this! You're such an experienced textile crafter, I'm sure you are able to spin a yarn with silk slubs and then weave it into your dream fabric.

You answered a question I had in mind but did not yet write down. I asked myself: 'is she going to wear the dress?' And yes, I read you want to wear it like an ordinary dress! That isn't what I am used to, having a daughter who likes making fairytale dresses ... She had them on only for the photo, and now they are on a 'mannequin' (dress form) in her living-room.

As much as I love the elves, they aren't of middle earth.  They exist in it, but they come from elsewhere and know they will go West when their time is over.  They also have lots of lovely magic so they don't have to do much work for their basic needs like food or clothing.

Whereas  Goldberry seems to be of this world. She is the River's Daughter.  She is connected to the changing of the seasons.  Although she has a different kind of magic, I imagine when she disappears in the evening, she sits at her wheel or loom creating cloth.   Like a wife from Greek mythology, (Penelope comes to mind) She does "laundry".  I can't see her having a flowing fancy gown like the elves, she needs something more practical.  Beautiful and connected to nature, but the kind of gown you can actually do stuff in.

I'm also feeling since she and Tom are forever creatures, they would have a style that is sort of timeless.  The medieval kirtle dress (and variations thereupon) lasted in England for nearly a thousand years.  We still have variations of this dress lasting after the middle ages.  

I've got two big projects that I need to finish this month.  Then I should have time to weave a proof of concept cloth with some yarn I have in my stash.

Looking at my stash, I don't have much green or any wool that would do the trick, so it won't be a real sample, but I do have cotton of a similar thickness (Ashford 2/10 cotton) in blue.  Blue is water, she's the River's daughter... it will do for this first attempt.  

I'm going to thread it with a twill but also play with overshot variations to see what these different shots of dew would look like.  

hey, R Ranson, if you'd like help spinning the fibre, I'd be happy to take a bag and work on it? To help cut down on time.

I was looking for lotr costumes people have made on youtube and stumbled on this video.  It made me laugh because I had wondered what happened to Sam's coat.  Now we know



It was a good coat.   Maybe one day I'll have a coat like that.

I've been asking around the local fibre community if anyone has yarn like this in their stash that I could buy.  This would greatly reduce the cost of this project.

There are some promising leads.  I'll know more in a few weeks.  

This project is progressing so much quicker than I expected.  

I found some local vintage yarn in someone's stash and if it's not too moth riddled, I think it will be a good choice.  I've updated the kofi project to reflect the new price (down a lot from the old estimate of $1k).  I've never raised money for a project via this method before, so I don't know how it all works.  It looks like I pressed some button giving KoFi permission to take 5% of the transaction (plus the paypal fees).  But that's less than 10% processing fee which is a lot less than kickstarter's 20+%

I've got the yarn ready for the first sample that will be structural to see if my vision and reality are willing to interact in a friendly way.  I'm going to make this sample a bit bigger than a normal sample because I HATE sampling.  If I make enough fabric I should be able to make something from it.  I have an idea.  It may involve Hobbits.

The yarn for the dew drops is still unknown.  I am going to try to find a really fine base yarn or thread and then I can build a silk yarn on top.  See what structure works best for this project.  I should already have enough silk fibre in my stash for this.  

The biggest problem with using vintage yarn is that I won't have enough for a sett sample.  This is the sample to help decide how close or far apart to put the yarns in the weaving (like thread count on a bed sheet).  This makes a huge difference to the drape and hand of the fabric (how flimsy or stiff it is).  I'll know more once I get the yarn here.  



Still have two big projects in the way of starting the sample.  If I do make this dress, I need it done before labour day weekend for the local Fall Fair.  

Looking at supplies for the dress, there are a few other things I need.

1. button hole twist - this is a thicker yarn used for stitching the holes where the lacing goes.   I can use lots of other things, but if I'm going to this much work, I want to make sure the finishing touches are going to last.  Silk is probably the best for this.

2. sewing thread.  Given how my machine isn't fond of handwoven cloth, I'll probably hand-sew this.  I would usually use linen thread.  

I can get both of these from Burnley and Trowbridge.  They don't always have them in stock, so I'm thinking of getting them sooner.  Shipping tends to be expensive and there's always the chance of paying customs, but I really like the quality of the threads from this shop.

I like sewing with this thread best, but it only comes in white and sometimes natural linen colour https://burnleyandtrowbridge.com/collections/threads/products/80-2-white-linen-thread-large-roll?variant=32389930287191

But the buttonhole twist comes in pretty colours (so I really should wait until I find the yarn).  I would need several of these as there are a lot of eyelets to sew. https://burnleyandtrowbridge.com/collections/threads/products/silk-buttonhole-twist?variant=31835890942039

And of course, it always helps to have extra needles (I can't seem to find these for less - after shipping, tax, etc - in Canada, so I would pick up a pack at the same time) https://burnleyandtrowbridge.com/collections/needles-pins/products/bohin-sharps-sewing-needles?variant=31834614333527

The other thing I want is some aglets.  I'm hoping the SCA event I'm going to this summer will have some silver-coloured ones for sale.  If not, these might be the way to go.  https://burnleyandtrowbridge.com/collections/cotton-tape-stay-cord/products/new-brass-aglet-18thc?variant=32348995190871 I would need at least two and probably an extra one or two for if I make a mistake.  

For the lining, I already have some lovely silver linen I was keeping for a special occasion.  

That's about it.  With the cost of the yarn and this, I think the project is manageable.  Did I miss anything?

I can't wait to see the yarn.

I see nothing wrong with using Burnley and Trowbridge for supplies. They have good stuff and it's well recommended. I know lots of things from there are on various dream sheets of mine!
Nope, you have a pattern, so all you need is fabric, thread for sewing, thread for the multitude of eyelets, aglets, and I'm guessing you plan on making matching cord with which to do the lacing.

I hope you are able to have fun at the SCA event you plan on attending, and find silver aglets. If not, they are easy to find online, maybe not in the style you're hoping for, though. Most of the ones I find are more appropriate for bolo ties than lacings.

I hope the two big projects that stand between you and starting this one are fun and go quickly for you. You're giving yourself a thrill ride of a summer, between this project and whatever else you typically do in the summertime.
Good luck!!