Search...
Home Subscribe
Pie
Home Subscribe
Recent topics Flagged topics Hot topics Best topics
Search...
Search within wofati and earth berm Search permies
Advance search Google search
Register / Login
Energy efficient DIY wood stoves
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
DIY rocket mass heaters - instructional DVD set Building a Better World Book with people picking apples skip the mortgage berm shed movie Shovel black and white
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nancy Reading
  • Carla Burke
  • r ranson
  • John F Dean
  • paul wheaton
  • Pearl Sutton
stewards:
  • Jay Angler
  • Liv Smith
  • Leigh Tate
master gardeners:
  • Christopher Weeks
  • Timothy Norton
gardeners:
  • thomas rubino
  • Jeremy VanGelder
  • Maieshe Ljin

Paul's A-Frame Wofatish Idea

 
Ash Jackson
gardener
Posts: 1331
Location: Miami, 11a, Am, apartment dweller
886
8
I like...
hugelkultur kids forest garden trees books wofati cooking bike rocket stoves
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Paul shared with me an idea of his for a really simple earth-sheltered structure.

The idea is it's a single post and single ridge beam, both made of BFL's (big fuckin' logs).  

It is intended to be a quick first build, in the spirit of the "Rob Roy 'first simple house'" from Mortgage Free. Possibly built in a single weekend if materials and tools are fully staged.

In describing it to me, Paul was adamant that this is not a wofati in the truest sense. For want of a better name, I'm currently calling this the A-Frame Wofatish. (I.e., it's a Wofati... ish).


The goal of this thread is to document, develop, and model the design. Likely discovering in the process some as yet hidden issues that need resolving.
IMG_20201028_122914.jpg
Composite sketch
Composite sketch
IMG_20201028_122905_1.jpg
Front elevation
Front elevation

My PEP Badge Tracker - An easier way to track your PEP Badge Progress. | Wait, wait, wait; What is PEP? | How Permies.com works.

 
Nicole Alderman
steward
Posts: 21558
Location: Pacific Northwest
12046
11
I like...
hugelkultur kids cat duck forest garden foraging fiber arts sheep wood heat homestead
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
It looks super cute!

~ Dragons, Fairies and even a Mini-Paul! ~ You Know You're a Permie When...~ All About Permies, including tutorials ~Herbal Hugel Spiral of Randomness!~Tricks to Keep the Dirt from Sliding off a Hugel~List of Cascadia Bloggers and Facebook Pages!~

 
Daniel Ray
gardener
Posts: 501
Location: Victor, Montana; Zone 5b
228
I like...
hugelkultur forest garden composting toilet building rocket stoves
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
There must have been something in the air, because I doodled a similar A frame underground house last week after nostalgically watching a Mike Oehler video.

I was playing with the idea of setting up a BFL for posts and ridgebeam as well, then using slabwood as decking on the side poles. I was considering using straw for insulation like Tony Wrench's roundhouse build, then covering with epdm, building a alder tree lattice on the outside and then starting creepers at the base to act as the living roof.

I would think that it would be difficult to get the wofati like depth of material on the "roof" of the A frame for proper insulation. Or that the walls would be too steep to effectively keep soil in place.

http://www.spiritwoodnaturalbuilding.com

 
Chris Kott
pollinator
Posts: 3847
Location: Marmora, Ontario
593
4
I like...
hugelkultur dog forest garden fungi trees rabbit urban wofati cooking bee homestead
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think you'd definitely be playing with a "rocky forest mound" kind of alpine microclimate, where the soil is thin, because the only way you'd get it to stay is with sediment traps on-contour of your roof. You could have enough, I think, for some pasture, and plenty of alpine strawberries. The goats would be happy. The lamblords not so much.

-CK

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein

 
Jay Angler
steward
Posts: 12459
Location: Pacific Wet Coast
7019
I like...
duck books chicken cooking food preservation ungarbage
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Cute - yes! But we need to run some numbers and ask some questions:

1. One of the reasons that A-frames have remained as fringe buildings is that taller people tend to be constantly bashing their heads. So with the size and slopes you're thinking of, what will be the floor area that corresponds to 6'6" height? Lower sections will still have lots of usefulness, but can 2 tall people pass each other without one needing to duck?

2. What kind of height are you thinking about - tall enough for a loft? That will solve some of the head room problem on the first floor and sleep's one of those things you don't need to do standing up!

3. What sort of ideas to you have already for keeping the dirt on the steep sides? I'm picturing a sort of "log box" idea covered with dirt. I'm wondering if the dirt under the "umbrellas" might need log boxes also so it doesn't slump or compact (I'm assuming too much compaction would reduce its insulating benefits?).

4. Ash Jackson wrote:

The idea is it's a single post and single ridge beam, both made of BFL's (big fuckin' logs).

That sounds to me as if the end of the single ridge beam will be resting on the ground at the back of the structure. Is that what you mean? Having the ridge beam sloped towards the back makes a lot of sense, but having it supported on a shorter BFL before ground level (maybe 4 or 6 feet up depending on how high the front one is) would seem to me to give you more usable space. If that's a "person" standing in the window in the drawing, that suggests to me that the single post is in the order of 12 feet tall.

Certainly if you've got BFL's around and you need a warm, dry place to store you and some stuff for winter, variations of this concept show up in survival and simple shelter books. If the alternative is freezing, who cares about head room! However, it seems like it would take work and effort to build, so if it were me, I'd try to build it to both last and be functional.

Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
How permies.com works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads

 
R Scott
pollinator
Posts: 4024
Location: Kansas Zone 6a
284
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I see it as a first shelter, without heavy machines.  Maybe a small tractor, maybe just rigging to move logs.  Cover with slash and sawdust to make a mound that will hold the tarp and maybe a little dirt to hold the tarp.  Enough to be shelter, not a big investment in time or materials.  Way easier to heat than a tuff shed, and just as fast.

"You must be the change you want to see in the world." "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." --Mahatma Gandhi
"Preach the Gospel always, and if necessary, use words." --Francis of Assisi.
"Family farms work when the whole family works the farm." -- Adam Klaus

 
Roberto pokachinni
gardener
Posts: 3489
Location: Fraser River Headwaters, Zone3, Lat: 53N, Altitude 2750', Boreal/Temperate Rainforest-transition
689
I like...
hugelkultur forest garden fungi trees books food preservation bike solar woodworking
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
An equilateral triangle is one of the strongest shapes in the universe, so in that regards it does have merit.  If the front wall is plumb (vertically straight), then the leaning post (if J's thinking is correct that you meant a single beam going downward from the front post), then that beam and all the weight on it is going to work against your post and the vertical nature of your front wall.  If you have two posts, and a single beam, then the structure, supported by two equilateral triangles, has a lot more integrity to stay upright as built.  This all is necessitated by having the posts placed so that they can bear the weight of the beam.  

   

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller

 
T Blankinship
pollinator
Posts: 610
Location: South East Kansas
204
7
I like...
forest garden trees books cooking bike bee
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I like the idea. There are many issues to work out. From my point of view I think a non living roof may work better. I think one could use vines on the steeper angles and build in access to the top of the roof.

You should never forget that every creature has its purpose in the cycle of nature and can also be very important to humans. Sepp Holzer's Permaculture

 
Lorinne Anderson
pollinator
Posts: 1019
Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
369
I like...
kids dog home care duck rabbit urban books building writing ungarbage
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
My ideas may unnecessarily make a simple build a lot more complicated, but potentially more "user friendly", over the long term?

Perhaps the addition of full length "dormers" on each side could solve the height issues. Essentially the dormers would be two additional triangles on each side, at loft height. One might consider the addition of windows that open for cross ventilation when temperatures rise.

Could terracing on the sides solve the steepness/soil slumping issues?

The dormers would provide significant light, headroom in the loft and a flatter surface up top (garden?). The terracing could essentially be a combination of swales and hugleculture beds leading up to the windows of the dormers.

Might be worth cladding in metal or tin to exclude rodents, etc.; and a potentially more waterproof barrier, that would add to structural integrity.

Lorinne Anderson: Specializing in sick, injured, orphaned and problem wildlife for over 20 years.

 
Davin Hoyt
pollinator
Posts: 580
Location: Central Texas (Georgetown)
322
7
I like...
monies tiny house wofati
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Daniel Ray wrote:There must have been something in the air...



Definitely something in the air. I mentioned a spiral wofati to Josiah the other day (in the spirit of small, fast, a-frame design).

Ya Ash!

Retire Early w/ this thread: https://permies.com/t/40/101935/HEX-token#1291916
Dehydrator Package: https://permies.com/t/93088f35/Solar-Dehydrator-Plans-Triple-Combo
Davin's website: http://www.davinhoyt.com
#Rich HEX.COM $HEX #HEX $PLS #PLS #HEXcrypto #HEXtoken #ERE #FIRE #BTC #bitcoin

 
Nicole Alderman
steward
Posts: 21558
Location: Pacific Northwest
12046
11
I like...
hugelkultur kids cat duck forest garden foraging fiber arts sheep wood heat homestead
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jay Angler wrote:

2. What kind of height are you thinking about - tall enough for a loft? That will solve some of the head room problem on the first floor and sleep's one of those things you don't need to do standing up!



I know Paul generally doesn't like going below soil level for structures, for all sorts of reasons. But, I think the greenhouse has the standing floor about 3 feet below soil level. What if the wall extended straight down about 3 feet. If couches and counters lined the walls, you'd never be standing where the wall meets the floor amd bonking your head.

Doing it this way probably is a lot more complex than a simple A frame, though...

Below is my HORRENDOUS photoshopping, done with sleeping child in my lap, and with heavy use of the "clone" tool because I can't move much with said sleeping child in my lap!
worst-photoehop-a-frame-wofati2.jpg
[Thumbnail for worst-photoehop-a-frame-wofati2.jpg]
I also have flux on my computer, making everything orange and sleepy, and so I don't even know if the sky is blue, hahahaha!

~ Dragons, Fairies and even a Mini-Paul! ~ You Know You're a Permie When...~ All About Permies, including tutorials ~Herbal Hugel Spiral of Randomness!~Tricks to Keep the Dirt from Sliding off a Hugel~List of Cascadia Bloggers and Facebook Pages!~

 
Jay Angler
steward
Posts: 12459
Location: Pacific Wet Coast
7019
I like...
duck books chicken cooking food preservation ungarbage
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Nicole Alderman wrote:

What if the wall extended straight down about 3 feet. If couches and counters lined the walls, you'd never be standing where the wall meets the floor amd bonking your head.

Doing it this way probably is a lot more complex than a simple A frame, though...  

Exactly! Essentially you're suggesting a below grade level "knee wall" which improves the issue of low height "dead space" which still needs to be cleaned and heated, but may defeat the "almost instant" housing bit.

I've met two "A" frame chicken coops in my time and they look like a great idea until you realize how hard it is to clean where the roof part of the "A" meets the floor and just how much of the coop has less that 2 ft of head room which a 6' guy is trying to clean out. I'm relatively short, and I wouldn't want to deal with them.

The best I can think of with an A-frame human-sized building is to do what was done in my Mom's house with a pair of attic bedrooms - the first part of the tight angle was boxed off and insulated. The next part of the angle was a series of cupboards with 3 doors that were about 5 feet high at the front and maybe 3 feet at the back. The opposite wall had the "full length dormer" as Lorinne Anderson suggested. A dormer tends to be associated with "window" but in fact Mom's dormer only has 2 spaced windows, but they are large enough for me to climb out of so they'd qualify as fire egress. The downside is that the dormer has essentially a flat roof which has caused problems in the past, but with modern sealable roofing membranes, it hasn't caused grief recently.

I'd do a light weight "mock-up" of the proposed A-frame with sticks and tarps and compare that to the 'berm shed' structures being built at the lab and consider the usable space under each balanced with the human energy it takes to build the two structures for real and add extra time to front in the berm shed and consider the pros and cons and go from there. We have to also consider that "cute" goes a long way to giving a person a sense of "home" that a square box may lack, despite how efficient it may be to build a square box.

Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
How permies.com works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads

 
leila hamaya
pollinator
Posts: 1596
Location: Root, New York
318
I like...
forest garden foraging trees fiber arts building medical herbs
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
if i was playing with this idea- i would have that top section of A frame jutting upwards from the ground/berm.

so down a little, and a lot of earth berm ing and build up a hill, but the very top visible as a tiny A frame rising up .....

make this level all greenhouse like with big lofts for plants and lots of vertical growing...but have stairs that lead down to the bottom level, all underground, invisible from walking up to it.
 
Scott Stiller
gardener
Posts: 1251
Location: North Carolina zone 7
446
5
I like...
hugelkultur forest garden fungi foraging ungarbage
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Chris Kott pointed out that maybe a built in sediment catch would be good for the living roof. I think it’s a good idea. My thoughts may not be in the true A-Frame spirit but what about an angled wood storage lean-to on both sides? It would be a nice place for the soil to bank up for healthy growth and take care of the dry firewood situation too!
BDA0819D-7A47-453B-9866-5D1B1CE60CDF.jpeg
Don’t forget the firewood!
Don’t forget the firewood!

Regards, Scott

 
Mark Brunnr
gardener
Posts: 1236
360
7
I like...
trees wofati rocket stoves
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Page 56 of Mike Oehler's '$50 and Up Underground House Book' shows an A frame design for a flat location. Depending on slope you can excavate as needed for soil to cover the roof. You can also excavate a slope out to daylight for drainage. The main issue with 1 big beam over 1 big post, similar in size to the Cooper Cabin main beam and posts for example, is safe handling of the weight. Minimizing cost with say a single day of heavy equipment rental to get the freshly cut trees into position, you'll have to rent something pretty large. Might be simpler to stick to smaller logs, with more than one post, and use much smaller equipment.

The holy trinity of wholesomeness: Fred Rogers - be kind to others; Steve Irwin - be kind to animals; Bob Ross - be kind to yourself

 
William Bronson
gardener
Posts: 5171
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio,Price Hill 45205
1011
I like...
forest garden trees urban
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I see less and less soil on this,  which is a good thing.
It lowers need for labor and  huge logs.
The way I figure it, the soil is there to protect the whatever moisture barrier is being used, specifically tarps, plastic sheeting or pond liner.

Now,  soil inside the envelop can be thermal mass.
That's what I would tuck into the otherwise hard to use corners.
Rather than digging down at all,  I think raising the grade would be a better way to create low walls.

Rising damp could be real issue.
Dig  a "moat", use the soil to create a raised earth foundation,  add a moisture barrier on top of that.

Going over the math,  I can find no compelling reason to choose two huge logs over more not huge ones.
To get the same amount of 6 foot high interior space you have to make the vertical leg higher and higher, and the leaning one as well.

Eating Bindweed
Eating Buckwheat Greens
Paul explains why I spend time here,better than I could myself.

 
John Hutter
Posts: 117
Location: Central Oregon Coast Range, valley side
39
5
I like...
duck forest garden fungi bee homestead ungarbage
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
In spirit of novel A-frame-ish designs, my plan for the first serious build has been a green roofed A-frame ever since this video I saw last May



Well it's a flat topped A frame anyways.  

About the same frame as is filmed, except probably a bunch of on site milled siding instead of paneling, and the roof will be green.  

The only significant deviations from "traditional" lined green roofs I think, will be throwing down dollars for stainless steel flashing, sourcing quite a few loads of halfway rotten scrap dimensional lumber of 1.5" thickness to lay up and down the whole length of the roof, and then transplanting some of the horrible, the terrible, the awful, English Ivy along the sides of the house, where I will have made a fancy fertilized irrigated planting bed for them to make that whole thing a living surface in 4 or 5 years instead of 20.  

Once mature, the scrap dimensional lumber and English Ivy will have made a sturdy few inches of soil and vine, then the structure can officially be called Wofatish.   But it's not done, the next step is to begin working in some more soil into the ivy mat, and chucking all kinds of cool wet season growing seeds on it, and let grow what will.  

It seems that if the building is only that size, and it is also edged with a total darkness thicket of sword ferns, pruning that Ivy patch once a year would pretty much be a cinch.  

It'd be nice to have something sweet smelling or tasty or otherwise useful as a living surface right away, but English Ivy is the only A++ I know for the criteria of evergreen rain erosion control and vigorous climbing/root matting growth in marginal soil and water conditions.    

Hope to start on this before too many months go by, but Operation Paddy Terrace and the rest of life are going to have to happen first haha.

Many things last lifetimes or eons, but the only thing that's permanent is the ever-changing flow itself

 
Joe Grand
Posts: 269
45
posted 4 years ago
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Good ideal.
 
Louis Fish
Posts: 42
Location: Cheney, WA
13
I like...
kids chicken cooking
posted 4 years ago
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Oh I watched that video not too long ago!  I love this idea, I've always had a fondness for a-frame buildings.  Solid earth berm houses don't allow for nearly as much light as I'd prefer, especially in the short winter days we get on in this region.  Would combine the best of both worlds!
 
Hans Quistorff
gardener
Posts: 1908
Location: Longbranch, WA Mild wet winter dry climate change now hot summer
466
3
I like...
goat tiny house rabbit wofati chicken solar
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I had this idea in 1990 for a lot that was steeply sloped above the roadway.  To excavate parallel to the road and put the dirt above the excavation. Then build an A frame building along the excavation with an intersecting A frame in the center that would extend back into the hill and out toward the road. Where the A frames intersect makes a nice open space. I was thinking of adding solar collection to the wasted space at the peak of the A frames. Solar panels would pump water from tank in the section of  A frame extending back into the hill and fill the collector tubes in the glazed peaks.
Aframe.png
underground A frame cross
underground A frame cross

Hans Albert Quistorff, LMT projects on permies Hans Massage Qberry Farm magnet therapy gmail hquistorff

 
William Bronson
gardener
Posts: 5171
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio,Price Hill 45205
1011
I like...
forest garden trees urban
posted 4 years ago
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The A frame does seem to lend itself to a transparent peak.
I wonder if that space could be treated as a low thermal  mass sun space:
https://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Sunspace/LTMSSGuide/LTMSSGuide.htm#What%20Is

Eating Bindweed
Eating Buckwheat Greens
Paul explains why I spend time here,better than I could myself.

 
William Bronson
gardener
Posts: 5171
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio,Price Hill 45205
1011
I like...
forest garden trees urban
posted 4 years ago
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm realizing just now that I'm not clear about some physical principles of buildings.

Is an A-frame structure better at resisting the weight of bermed earth than a vertical sided structure?
If so,  is it it due to the the slope of the soil supporting wall,due to the buttress provided by the opposite wall, both, or something else entirely?

Eating Bindweed
Eating Buckwheat Greens
Paul explains why I spend time here,better than I could myself.

 
Hans Quistorff
gardener
Posts: 1908
Location: Longbranch, WA Mild wet winter dry climate change now hot summer
466
3
I like...
goat tiny house rabbit wofati chicken solar
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The sunspace is exactly what I was talking about. As for the A frame verses vertical wall it has the advantage of the bottom of the wall not pushing in from the earth pressure therefore placed on a dry stack foundation instead of being berried. The inward pressure in the center would be greater but less than on a flat celling. A lower cross bar on the A puts the load into compression but reduces the height of walkable space.

Hans Albert Quistorff, LMT projects on permies Hans Massage Qberry Farm magnet therapy gmail hquistorff

 
Creighton Samuels
Posts: 604
56
5
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

William Bronson wrote: I'm realizing just now that I'm not clear about some physical principles of buildings.

Is an A-frame structure better at resisting the weight of bermed earth than a vertical sided structure?


Generally speaking, yes.


If so,  is it it due to the the slope of the soil supporting wall,due to the buttress provided by the opposite wall, both, or something else entirely?


Mostly because an Equilateral triangle is a better approximation of an arch than a square or rectangle.
 
William Bronson
gardener
Posts: 5171
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio,Price Hill 45205
1011
I like...
forest garden trees urban
posted 4 years ago
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator


Mostly because an Equilateral triangle is a better approximation of an arch than a square or rectangle.



Would a gambrel roof be closer still?
I was thinking that using  two or three attic trusses placed directly on top of a stem wall or the foundation itself could make a great A frame building.
A gambrel roof is an obvious extension of this.

Obviously, these forms of construction are more complex than one post and one beam,  but I think you could also build the without heavy machinery.
A roundwood approximation of either seems doable.


Imagine a pitched  roof,  set on the ground,  gables facing east/west, the slopes facing north/south.
(Edit): pretty much what Hans describes above.
I like the idea of standard trusses on the endwalls with attic trusses in between.
The entrance could be on the south side,  built into a attic truss or gambrel dormer, again much like the idea Hans Quistroff presented.
You could use all standard trusses, for strength and simplicity, and cut man sized doorways where needed.
I'm not sure what the spacing for the tresses would need to be,  but there are tables that could be used for that calculation.

I like the idea of  metal roofing,  but I'm wondering if aluminum flashing would work.

Eating Bindweed
Eating Buckwheat Greens
Paul explains why I spend time here,better than I could myself.

 
William Bronson
gardener
Posts: 5171
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio,Price Hill 45205
1011
I like...
forest garden trees urban
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 9
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
So here's a take on the bermed attic truss house:
6f88caf9e540839ad1ad7e9476186560.jpg
A rather twee garden shed
A rather twee garden shed

Eating Bindweed
Eating Buckwheat Greens
Paul explains why I spend time here,better than I could myself.

 
William Bronson
gardener
Posts: 5171
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio,Price Hill 45205
1011
I like...
forest garden trees urban
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Here's a much more robust version, DIY,  half buried,  with active solar heal collection in the form of an air to earth heat exchanger:
http://www.ecosnippets.com/gardening/swing-set-repurposed-into-underground-greenhouse/

swingset-into-greenhouse-5.jpg
Semi Undrground A Frame Greenhouse
Semi Undrground A Frame Greenhouse

Eating Bindweed
Eating Buckwheat Greens
Paul explains why I spend time here,better than I could myself.

 
Jay Angler
steward
Posts: 12459
Location: Pacific Wet Coast
7019
I like...
duck books chicken cooking food preservation ungarbage
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

William Bronson wrote:So here's a take on the bermed attic truss house:

That is totally adorable! However, judging by the height of the chair, it also demonstrates my point about head-room, despite having closed off and bermed the shortest part of the triangle.

It's a balance between having the slope gradual enough to berm effectively vs steep enough to be like the A-frame in the video above which had no head-room problems of note. To some degree, it's also what you plan on doing with it. If the goal is just to have a warm place to sit and sleep, built quickly out of what's at hand, less head-room may work.

The second picture William posted while I was typing has more headroom, but will need creative work to get dirt and plants to stay on the sides. I think it can be done with support or by simply going far enough out from the building, but that depends on one's overall site plan.

Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
How permies.com works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads

 
William Bronson
gardener
Posts: 5171
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio,Price Hill 45205
1011
I like...
forest garden trees urban
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Looking back at the original sketch,  Paul was envisioning something about 14 feet tall and maybe 18 foot wide at the base.
The length of the ridge beam is hard for me to judge.
This scale means more room to spare inside.
I still don't love the need for big logs and big machines but it should be roomy enough for a tiny house.

Eating Bindweed
Eating Buckwheat Greens
Paul explains why I spend time here,better than I could myself.

 
Creighton Samuels
Posts: 604
56
5
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

William Bronson wrote:


Mostly because an Equilateral triangle is a better approximation of an arch than a square or rectangle.



Would a gambrel roof be closer still?



Probably, but the details do matter. Particularly the equilateral part, as the image with the earth bermed shed looking thing is not an equilateral, as the angle of the roof is too wide.  The side of the triangle that is the floor is still a neccessary part of the shape.

An equilateral pentagon should do even better as an approximation of an arch, but this would mean that your low sided wing walls still wouldn't be straight, but instead slanted out; and the junctions where the walls meet the roof sides would need to be every bit as strong as the beam junction on an A frame.  This is where the advantages start breaking down, because this is not true with a traditional roof on top of a traditional plumb wall.  Even in the case of load bearing plumb walls, the junction between the wall and the roof is quite weak, as the junction typically only needs to be strong enough to keep the roof from shifting in a hard wind, and the structure depends upon the weight of the roof sitting directly on the plumb walls to keep the structure in compression.  This is not, and should not be expected, to be true with a bermed home of any shape.  Every juction must be very strong, and strong juctions are expensive, so the more that you design into it, the greater your costs will rise.

And this is also why the A frame is such a popular form of traditional cabin; the strong junctions are minimumal, with only the roof beam and the ground anchors being necessarily strong.
 
Jay Angler
steward
Posts: 12459
Location: Pacific Wet Coast
7019
I like...
duck books chicken cooking food preservation ungarbage
posted 4 years ago
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Creighton Samuels wrote:

Even in the case of load bearing plumb walls, the junction between the wall and the roof is quite weak, as the junction typically only needs to be strong enough to keep the roof from shifting in a hard wind, and the structure depends upon the weight of the roof sitting directly on the plumb walls to keep the structure in compression.

There are places where the "weight" of the house was all that was used to keep the house on the foundations! This can be a *really* bad idea in areas with tornadoes, hurricanes and earthquakes. Most modern building codes have rules about fastening walls to foundations and roofs to walls and I've learned that I'm often further ahead to build "better than code" due to some of the "gusty, energetic" storms we get. I've got a "temporary" processing shed which is a modified portable car shelter with large spikes holding it down and a guy line at one front corner as there isn't a good place to put a second guy for the other corner. We had an atypical wind direction with big gusts the other night and the spikes are several inches out of the ground. Since "temporary" is clearly going to be another year at least, I've *got* to find a way to fasten that second front corner. (Both back corners are guyed, but they're also sheltered from this sort of wind event - so it's interesting how Mother Nature will find the one weak link!)

Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
How permies.com works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads

 
jack vegas
Posts: 59
Location: Edge of the World - PNW
26
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Check out this Swedish "eco-lodge".  Scroll through page and see mini- a-frame cabins.

https://www.wildsweden.com/kolarbyn-ecolodge



 
Hans Quistorff
gardener
Posts: 1908
Location: Longbranch, WA Mild wet winter dry climate change now hot summer
466
3
I like...
goat tiny house rabbit wofati chicken solar
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

jack vegas wrote:Check out this Swedish "eco-lodge".  Scroll through page and see mini- a-frame cabins.

https://www.wildsweden.com/kolarbyn-ecolodge


Hans Albert Quistorff, LMT projects on permies Hans Massage Qberry Farm magnet therapy gmail hquistorff

 
paul wheaton
author and steward
Posts: 52458
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
∞
I like...
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
side view
quick-a-frame.png
[Thumbnail for quick-a-frame.png]

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

 
paul wheaton
author and steward
Posts: 52458
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
∞
I like...
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
3 BFLs.   And then a bunch of logs for the sides.  And then the membranes.

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

 
leila hamaya
pollinator
Posts: 1596
Location: Root, New York
318
I like...
forest garden foraging trees fiber arts building medical herbs
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
i played around a bit with the idea i was having earlier in this thread.

actually i've drawn a few quick sketches of a few versions...but didnt get too far with any of them.
anywho this is a bit off the side of the original idea, much more intensive ...and this is way too big too, needs scaling down, but...for anyones food for thought...

i drew some of my ideas out.... the AH FRAME , i will call it...with an H underneath the A to hold it up high.
an AX FRAME would also work, although not as good sounding =)

AHframe.jpg
[Thumbnail for AHframe.jpg]
 
Glenn Herbert
Rocket Scientist
Posts: 4529
Location: Upstate NY, zone 5
575
5
posted 4 years ago
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
There are lots of cool and interesting ideas here, but many of them get away from the original concept of fast and easy/simple to build. If you are going to use it primarily for a place to shelter and live while building a final house, you don't need to spend time and energy on a big structure with amenities. (I am of course thinking about a single person or a couple, not a large family.)

Along the lines of easy and cheap to build, I think bfl's are problematic. Maneuvering them, even if near the building site, is dangerous and strenuous without skill and/or machinery. Renting an earthmoving/log-placing machine will probably take a good chunk of change up front. Making a diminishing series of medium-sized log triangles say 2' to 4' apart going back into the earth, and then laying a single log on top as a ridge, is doable with no equipment and in easy steps. Then small logs ("junkpoles") can be easily laid horizontally across the A-frames, and waterproofing and insulating layers in succession. Not as cool as bfl structure, but much more accessible to the ordinary person without a backhoe on hand. Also, if secondary logs are to be laid up against the bfl main frame, the height of those secondary logs will be such that, to hold up any amount of earth cover, they would have to be strong enough to hold up the ridge beam all by themselves. So no need for bfl's in the completed structure.

If there is any slope, placing triangles heading uphill from the opening, and then digging out the usable part of the slope between them (so that there is a minimum 5 or 6' of headroom), would give the best bang for the buck. It gets the earth you need for cover and simultaneously reduces the amount of structure to be covered. Then digging a swale well outside the structure line and using that for more cover helps with drainage.
 
Glenn Herbert
Rocket Scientist
Posts: 4529
Location: Upstate NY, zone 5
575
5
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
A crude sketch (first time I have used Paint 3d and don't know if there is a way to make straight lines yet) of my concept.
aframewofatish01.png
A-frame wofatish with easy-to-handle logs
A-frame wofatish with easy-to-handle logs
 
paul wheaton
author and steward
Posts: 52458
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
∞
I like...
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
posted 4 years ago
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I feel like the post and the ridge log will both need to be BFLs.

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

 
leila hamaya
pollinator
Posts: 1596
Location: Root, New York
318
I like...
forest garden foraging trees fiber arts building medical herbs
posted 4 years ago
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
yeah those are good point, and good idea, that would make it simpler and more stable. so bigger roof, a less steep angle, and that roof is much wider than the underground part, with the row of roof trusses being supported by the undisturbed ground level soil, or top of the subsoil, and the underground part only being a small area underneath the squished A
 
Water! People swim in water! Even tiny ads swim in water:
permaculture and gardener gifts (stocking stuffers?)
https://permies.com/wiki/permaculture-gifts-stocking-stuffers
reply
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!
Similar Threads
More...