PEPPERS in action

I'm still having trouble catching up with this thread and others about PEP textiles.

Some background: There's been a bunch of people and a huge number of hours working with Paul and others to create the Textile list - including about 20 hours alone working on the specific wording of the badges to make it most accurate and give it the most google love.  Some of those changes still have to come over to the permies side of the planning.

It's not perfect.  

It won't ever be perfect for everyone.

But we declared it "good enough for now" and you got to stop somewhere if we're going to get the rest of the textile badge hammered out.  I'm looking forward to Iron.  Paul has Ideas.  I have Ideas.  Once PEP-textile-iron is made, I may be creating a PERaven-textile-Iron path as I have different Ideas as to what I would want this to look like.

I'm a bit hesitant to make changes to the Straw level because so much work went into getting it to good enough and making changes means taking time away from getting the rest of the PEP textiles created.  

But I do see that there is some confusion with matching description to the wording.  I'll go through the badges and see what I can do to clarify the ones that are having trouble.  Does anyone want to list the links to the top three confused ones so I have somewhere to start today?

Someone asked somewhere about invisible patching on woven cloth.

This is an example of the technique - although the iron patch isn't the most permie way to finish it off.  



What she doesn't show very well is when she passes the needle into the fabric, it is following ONE thread, up and down, in the woven pattern.  One thread exactly.  It follows the weaving pattern.  

It's very percise.  Very difficult to do well.  But when done correctly, it is completely invisible on the outside

Here's a website about some of the different kinds of invisible mending.  It's in Japanese, but googletranslate does okay on it and the pictures are good.

http://kaketsugi.com/

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:

Nicole Alderman wrote:Inge hasn't earned the Straw badge, either, and she's not staff. And she was able to certify a Straw Level badge, so I'm thinking you should be able to too. This is all rather exciting!

You are right. I didn't earn the Straw Badge. I will never be able to get the Straw Badge ... because there is no manual for my sewing machine (a Husqvarna from the 1960s I bought second-hand)

Husqvarna manuals are pretty easy to find online.  

But if you cannot find that particular one, you can write something short about the manual you did choose, why you think it applies to your machine and how not having the correct manual influences your actions.  About three sentences should do the trick.

Or... borrow, beg, steel a machine from a friend or the library that has a manual.

Opalyn Rose wrote:

Leigh Tate wrote:... Opalyn, good point about the points. :) The invisible mending is part of the required list, so no points to worry about there. The repairs list is for points, but gosh, there are so many projects to choose from we should be okay there too.

I was thinking about assigning points to the required bb and changing the badge requirements to 35 points instead of complete 7 required bb plus 31 points to increase consistency between aspects of PEP.

I consulted with Paul.  We are going with different wording.

For complicated reasons - it's probably good not to change the wording on the wiki too much right now.  

https://permies.com/wiki/40/101129/pep-textiles/PEP-Badge-Textiles#1192339

r ranson wrote:I do see that there is some confusion with matching description to the wording.  I'll go through the badges and see what I can do to clarify the ones that are having trouble.  Does anyone want to list the links to the top three confused ones so I have somewhere to start today?

Mine (invisible mending) have been clarified by you and Nicole, so I have a clearer sense of direction. Thank you both for that.

Descriptions for techniques and methods are always a challenge, I think, if the idea is new for someone. Hopefully, the badge bit pages can define and clarify, which will help anyone curious as to what the description is about.

Raven
I've tried to recap my questions here

textile straw question:
https://permies.com/wiki/40/101129/pep-textiles/PEP-Badge-Textiles#1182360

BB Threads for you review specifically how to earn the third point
https://permies.com/wiki/152215/pep-textiles/Sew-Skirt-textile-straw-sew#1191287

questions about the Spin List - Rope and Twine
https://permies.com/wiki/151922/pep-textiles/Textiles-Spin-List-Badge-Bits#1189359

Comment on Invisible Repairs
I appreciate the value of the truly invisible mend you shared here.  I also know that a farm and kids need functional repairs so I'm wondering where this thread fits in PEP if it does?
https://permies.com/wiki/151282/pep-textiles/Add-Invisible-Patch-textile-straw#1184121 - this seems like it has a value of 0.5 point
Maybe invisible is not the right word but it is functional and I think it would be needed more often on a homestead or farmstead.  How about functional or hidden or discrete?

Mike Haasl wrote:I think I got it fixed.  Changed all the titles to not specify hand tools, changed the titles on the badge page to not mention it, and reordered the badge page into a hand tool list and a hand and power tool list.  If I could have done it better, lemme know!

Awesome!  My next question is about the dry peg bb.  They are on the power and hand tool list but the photos say "show hand tools" for these
https://permies.com/wiki/99897/pep-woodworking/Green-wood-stool-dry-wood
https://permies.com/wiki/99621/pep-woodworking/Dry-peg-coat-hooks-green
https://permies.com/wiki/99899/pep-woodworking/PEP-BB-roundwood-sand-drypegsawhorse
https://permies.com/wiki/100458/pep-woodworking/green-wood-buck-dry-wood

for comparison, the bench says show tools used
https://permies.com/wiki/99826/pep-woodworking/PEP-BB-roundwood-sand-drypegbench

Could you update the list or the bb?

Opalyn Rose wrote:
Comment on Invisible Repairs
I appreciate the value of the truly invisible mend you shared here.  I also know that a farm and kids need functional repairs so I'm wondering where this thread fits in PEP if it does?
https://permies.com/wiki/151282/pep-textiles/Add-Invisible-Patch-textile-straw#1184121 - this seems like it has a value of 0.5 point
Maybe invisible is not the right word but it is functional and I think it would be needed more often on a homestead or farmstead.  How about functional or hidden or discrete?

I'm thinking the not-so-pretty, but functional patches fit into the sand badge patch? https://permies.com/wiki/105492/pep-textiles/Sew-patch-PEP-BB-textile

I'm thinking the invisible weaving stitch is something kind of like the patch I did here. I kind of rewove the fabric with matching thread and a patch underneath. I'd probably need to do a better job for the invisible repair? Farm clothes are important to mend quickly and get back to work, but it's also important to have nice clothes that keep looking nice, so they don't turn instantly into farm clothes and then you have to go and buy/make more nice clothes.

I'm thinking that maybe the straw level repairs are ones that you can do and no one will know you did them.

Opalyn Rose wrote:Raven
I've tried to recap my questions here

textile straw question:
https://permies.com/wiki/40/101129/pep-textiles/PEP-Badge-Textiles#1182360

Oddballs - We're not doing Oddballs for textiles at this time.  This may change later.  Or not.  We're putting this on the back burner until we get the rest of textiles filled out better.

Duplications? - Probably not.  I don't want to say "no", but I don't want to say "yes".

Basically, what PEP is showing is that you can do the specific skill.  Like baking a loaf of bread!  Getting that first loaf is a big step in learning.  But it isn't much more to make a second loaf... or the 100th loaf.  Unless we are showing volume as part of the badge requirement.

Um... let's say for now that duplications of badges aren't encouraged.  Hopefully, when we get the new lists moved over, they should be long enough there's no need to do duplicates.  

3) Are point(s) available for doing the second pick one from the sand badge?  
   For instance, if I crocheted a dishcloth for the Sand Badge and also knit a hot pad.

For sand badge, that wouldn't matter because one only has to do one to get the badge.  

For straw onwards?  I don't know.  I've put it on the list for me to ask Paul next weekend.  

BB Threads for you review specifically how to earn the third point
https://permies.com/wiki/152215/pep-textiles/Sew-Skirt-textile-straw-sew#1191287

This is one of the ones with a point-range?  I suspect this badge will be broken down into a few different badges later on.  It's probably better to be vague about what qualifies for how many points now.  But I think we can see a simple tube or circle skirt would be the least points, a highly tailored walking skirt would be more points.  There are more technically challenging skirt construction techniques which might be worth even more but I can't think of them off the top of my head.  Leave it vague for now.  

questions about the Spin List - Rope and Twine
https://permies.com/wiki/151922/pep-textiles/Textiles-Spin-List-Badge-Bits#1189359

Did my reply help?

Comment on Invisible Repairs
I appreciate the value of the truly invisible mend you shared here.  I also know that a farm and kids need functional repairs so I'm wondering where this thread fits in PEP if it does?
https://permies.com/wiki/151282/pep-textiles/Add-Invisible-Patch-textile-straw#1184121 - this seems like it has a value of 0.5 point
Maybe invisible is not the right word but it is functional and I think it would be needed more often on a homestead or farmstead.  How about functional or hidden or discrete?

I updated the wiki for the invisible patch.  It needs some more instruction and video.  

I asked a sewing group that is big into historical techniques what the modern term for this kind of repair would be, and they agreed the Japanese word is the best word we have in English now.  kaketsugi  It would be a good starting place for this kind of mending, but I don't know if it simply refers to this patch or all invisible mending techniques.  I'm asking my Japanese friends for better clarity on this word.

I have a question for the Tool Care BB manager:

Would a Peavey count toward the "replace a pin tool handle bb?"  (translation: could it be added to the pin handle tool list?) or would I submit it for an oddball point?
https://permies.com/wiki/127877/pep-tool-care/PEP-BB-tool-straw-handles

Also when I went to post this question on the bb page, I got this message:
You cannot reply to wiki threads - you can only edit them.

I needed a peavey to turn my logs that I'm peeling so I tested ours and here is what happened.

the wiki should be better now.  can you check?

I added peaveys and cant hooks to the list since I think they're exactly what it's talking about.  If it was more debatable than that, it would have to wait until we revise all the badges in a year or two.  Gotta get the remaining few badges done before we can revisit the older ones...  Kinda like painting the golden gate bridge....

Regarding the invisable mending, try the term reweaving. My first search came up with several drycleaners who offer the service. They made a point to state repairs are not entirely invisible.
Here is one method of the task.

Great video.

I love the way he shows the way the needle goes in and out.  It pains me to see him using tweezers to thread the eye of the needle like that when a loop of thread is so much easier.

...

As for the word "reweaving".  I hesitate to use that term as it refers to two very specific techniques.  One in weaving and one in repairing cloth.

Reweaving in weaving is when we unweave a section and reweave it.  

Reweaving in repair is when we recreate the woven cloth with a darning needle and yarn/thread.  examples: https://www.withoutatrace.com/reweaving/

What he is doing in that video technically isn't re-weaving.  It's a kind of invisible patching.  

Then again, the link I just gave calls this kind of patching "interweaving" which isn't a good word either as it has a plethora of definitions and describes several very specific (and not the same) techniques.  

This is the biggest problem with textiles - the language.

It's one of the oldest crafts humans have, some say we learned to spin and weave as a species long before we harnessed fire.  Because there are so many techniques and many of these are very specific in the method and result, very specific language has developed to describe and talk about each technique.

But, each family, village, workshop, had their own unique words for the specific technique.  Sometimes these words sound the same, sometimes these words have the same sound but drastically different meaning.  Sometimes the same meaning has drastically different words.  These words change with the region and with time.

since we are talking about English, I'll focus on that.  

With the growing power of the guilds in 14th Century England and Wool production being the major source of wealth of the nation, Textile language became more standardized.  One city has one guild for one kind of textile (say wool combing).  So every wool comber in that city needs to belong and be trained by that guild.  The language in that city becomes standardized within the city.  But not between the different guilds (wool combers, vs, wool spinners) and certainly not between the cities because guild secrets are secret.

With the industrial revolution, the language became more standardized in the industrial setting, within the UK.  There were (and still are) a lot of differences in the words, meanings, measurements between the different countries, but if you work in a mill in York, or a mill in Sheffield, you probably use the same words to describe the same things.  

But this standardization of language was slow to reach the handcrafter or cottage industry makers.  They still used the language of their location.  

In the early half of the 1900s, there was some small attempt to standardize this language.  Again in the 1970s and 1980s.  With the 2000s, more books on textile crafting are published, more attempt to standardize language, meaning, and pronunciation (often with sad results).  But there is still a massive difference in language depending on how you learned and where.  As the 21st century grew older, people began to realize the more we standardize the language, the more history and dexterity of words we loose.  As we standardize the language, we reduce the meaning  and the quantity of the words and they no longer refer to specific techniques.  It's like the way our culture has replaced the words "gaggle" and "skein" with the ever boring and universal "flock" (gaggle is group of geese on ground, skein is flying geese in a V_

Much of my knowledge of language comes from the geographical location I learned and the history of textiles (especially in the UK).  I also do a lot of translation of other countries English Language textile words into Canadian English (mostly West Coast) textile language for a company.  

Another problem is that people have forgotten that these techniques exist.  Patching where you weave in the threads of the patch into the fabric isn't common knowledge anymore.  So the specific words we used to use for these are infused with new meanings.  And when we try to find new words to describe this, we run a very big risk of doing it to other specific words.  

I don't want to usurp the meanings of existing textile terms as this will cause considerable confusion later.  

r ranson wrote:As for the word "reweaving".  I hesitate to use that term as it refers to two very specific techniques.  One in weaving and one in repairing cloth.

True, but considering the limitations of search engines, we sometimes have to use terms that are more describers that accurate terms. Just amongst us, it's been helpful. What's good about this thread, is that we can lay it all out on the table and then decide on what to call it.

In addition to Joylynn's video, and "The Magic of Kimono Restoration" that R shared, I also found these that might fit into the same category.

The magic of Kaketsugi restoration


French Weaving - The Lost Art


The French weaving one explains but doesn't really show the technique. I also noticed the term on the "Without a Trace" website.

Now, just to make sure I'm staying on track, am I correct that all of this is under consideration for the Straw badge invisible mending requirement?

reinforce woven fabric where it is thinning or starting to make a hole

I've just seen the updated textiles straw badge repair list. Wow! Great job Nicole!

I know the list is a work in progress, so it's probably no surprise that some of the new items appear to be duplicates which already have BB pages written. To avoid duplicate BBs being written, it seems prudent to either have only one or the other. But before I jump in there and start making changes, I wanted to make sure that they are indeed duplicates, and if they are, ask about the preferred wording.

So far, I've found three:

mend a hole in a pocket
repair a hole in a pocket - https://permies.com/wiki/151865/pep-textiles/Repair-hole-pocket-textiles-straw

mend damaged lining fabric in a garment
repair damaged lining fabric - https://permies.com/wiki/152207/pep-textiles/Repair-damaged-lining-fabric-textiles

let out trousers or a skirt to make it bigger (possibly adding a panel)
let out a shirt to make it bigger (possibly adding a panel) - https://permies.com/wiki/152314/pep-textiles/Resize-part-garment-panel-textiles (could add trousers to this one)

What say the PEP textile masterminds?!

I think the mend hole and repair hole are probably the same one, so we should be able to put that BB
as the link for mend hole

And I think mend damaged lining fabric and repair damaged lining fabric are the same, and so we could link the repair damaged lining for the mend list.

Raven might go over both to make sure they're what we need, but no matter what, they'll make a great starting point!

As for making the trousers bigger, I think the resize garment probably fits the increase bust size BB better? And we'll need new BBs for trousers and the other resize BBs. And the resize garment will need to get reworded because--if I remember right, it has info on lots of resizing. And that info is probably good for making the new resize BBs. Honestly, it probably doesn't matter what we turn the resize garment BB into, as long as we take the other resize info off of it, and put the info on new BB threads...if that makes any sense...

What Nicole said

Leigh Tate wrote:
What say the PEP textile masterminds?!

After talking with Paul yesterday (and I agree with this).  When there's any doubt, we go with how it is phrased in the master document.

Example

mend a hole in a pocket
repair a hole in a pocket - https://permies.com/wiki/151865/pep-textiles/Repair-hole-pocket-textiles-straw

Mend is the wording in the master document.  By changing the wording in the BB wiki, it becomes that...???  

Trying to find the words.

Got to BB.  Change word of subject and description to match "mend a hole in a pocket" and then we can put the link in the textile page?

Is that making sense?  

Same with this one.  The mend one is on the master document.

mend damaged lining fabric in a garment
repair damaged lining fabric - https://permies.com/wiki/152207/pep-textiles/Repair-damaged-lining-fabric-textiles


This one is different.

let out trousers or a skirt to make it bigger (possibly adding a panel)
let out a shirt to make it bigger (possibly adding a panel) - https://permies.com/wiki/152314/pep-textiles/Resize-part-garment-panel-textiles (could add trousers to this one)

The master document has
let out a shirt to make it bigger (possibly adding a panel) (1 point)
let out trousers or a skirt to make it bigger (possibly adding a panel) (1 point)


So... The shirt one would be about shirts.
The pant/skirt one would be about pants and skirts.
two different badges.  

R, I agree with you. Language is very interesting, but also very confusing!
As someone from/in the Netherlands, speaking/reading Dutch as my 'mother language' the English language is even more confusing. At school UK English was taught (Shakespeare's English). But now through the internet I read and hear UK English, US English, Australian, Canadian, and many more forms of English. And then there's the 'jargon', the special words used by the people of different crafts, regions, (sub-)cultures, etc. It's so interesting ... after learning the meaning ...
Of course the same problem exists within the Dutch language. We have different regions too, with their own dialects (varying from the Flemish, spoken in Belgium to the Saxon dialects of North-eastern parts of the Netherlands). And those terms finding their origin in the old guilds too. And even the language as it's spoken by older people differs from that of the young ones!
In an international forum like Permies there will always be some misunderstandings, it's inevitable!

Nicole Alderman wrote:I think the mend hole and repair hole are probably the same one, so we should be able to put that BB
as the link for mend hole. . .

Exactly. My questions wasn't about wording at this point, but do we need both "mend a hole in a pocket" and "repair a hole a hole in a pocket."  Or the other duplicates for that matter.

just created this Prepare Flax for Spinning textile BB
Please review and tag as a BB page.

Thank you! I split one requirement into two requirements and threw some apples and pie and designated it as a BB thread. Could you add it to main textile thread, if it's not already?

Thank you!!!

Just finished Knit or Crochet a Pair of Fingerless Gloves - textile.straw.fingerless PEP BB
Please review and tag it as a BB page.

Hello PEP folks!  If you happen across a suggestion where someone says "How about adding blah blah blah to the metalworking badge", and their suggestion sounds somewhat reasonable, please either put a link to it in this thread (https://permies.com/t/147397/PEP-refinement-ideas#1202114) or merge it to that thread (if you have staff powers) so that we can collect all the suggestions in one place.

If their question is more related to issues with how a BB is written or that the requirements don't make sense, that can stay in the badge or BB thread.  

Starting the conversation for the weave a small bag, purse, camera case BB
please provide feedback and I'll put together the initial BB page.

This thread made it seem like we could hop right in to help create new pages. I've made a BB page for weave a baby blanket--if it looks good, could someone mark it as a BB page?

WOW! I'm no weaving expert, but your thread looks fantastic to me! Lots of helpful videos and information!! Raven might come and tweak things (that's normal for all of us!), but I designated it as a BB thread and added it to Textiles thread. People should be able to submit their baby blanket for the BB now!

Awesome, thanks M!  R and I were talking yesterday and she might set up a textiles specific thread for BB creation.  For now this is the perfect place but keep your eyes open for a new thread that might come along to consolidate/concentrate all the textiles BB creation work.  There are a ton of them so it's great to have folks on board with creating BBs.

just finished making a BB Page:
Make silk hankies
please review and change into a BB page

Note/Update: r raven said that caps are ok to so I updated the BB page

just finished making a BB Page:
Weave a Purse or bag
please review and change into a BB page

I'll update the Badge Page and its points will be 3 pt - not a range per the conversation during a Textile Friends meeting

I've just made a bb wiki for the leather thimble BB in textiles.

Leather Thimble

Please can someone check and make any necessary revisions.

Alun Townsend wrote:I've just made a bb wiki for the leather thimble BB in textiles.

Leather Thimble

Please can someone check and make any necessary revisions.

Thank you! You did  a great job! I added in some little dashes (-) for the bullet points, and now it's added to the main textile thread and marked as a BB thread. Now it should be ready and raring to go!

Just checked the leather thimble and it looks great.  One detail though.....   We have been trying to keep the mention of how many points a BB is up at the badge level.  Since they have to be at the badge level anyway, duplicating them within the BB can lead to a situation where someday we change it on the badge and forget to change it on the BB.  

One caveat...  On point range BBs it's ok to mention them within the BB in order to explain the point range (what gets you the minimum vs maximum) or in cases where you might also earn some points for another badge (eg. making this yurt also gives you XX points for roundwood at the Wood level).

Thanks Nicole and Mike! Now I need to get my pictures in order and do the submission for the BB.

I'll keep the points thing in mind. This is probably the wrong place to ask this but... Did anyone look into autogenerating these wikis from a spreadsheet? With so many to initially create, the similar basic layout and the difficulty of ongoing version control, some sort of 'mail merge' system might help. I'm guessing this might be to late to be helpful.

Hi Alun, yes it's probably too late at this point.  None of us are tied into the software side of the forum so we just work with what we have as best we can.  That's why keeping the points on the badge wiki instead of inside the BB write-ups helps keep our version control issues from getting any more out of hand.  

I was certifying a bb (maybe start a button jar - textile) and it has the requirements and "to be certified you must submit..." sections above the information/instructional photos and videos.  That was really helpful when I clicked from the pending bb post to page 1 to see the requirements.  

Question for Mike Haasl and everybody.

I'm wondering if that could become standard as we move forward?

just finished 5+ Gore Skirt BB Page:
Sew a 5+ Gore Skirt
please review and change it into a BB page