• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Carla Burke
  • Nancy Reading
  • r ranson
  • Jay Angler
  • John F Dean
  • Pearl Sutton
stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • paul wheaton
  • Anne Miller
master gardeners:
  • Christopher Weeks
  • Timothy Norton
gardeners:
  • thomas rubino
  • Jeremy VanGelder
  • Matt McSpadden

Willow Feeder movie

 
gardener
Posts: 4818
Location: Colombia - Tropical dry forest
1943
4
forest garden fish fungi trees tiny house earthworks bee solar woodworking greening the desert homestead
  • Likes 224
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Lots of footage about the willow feeder systems at Wheaton Labs has been taken by different peeps, We have enough to make a Willow Feeder movie! I think this project is KickStarter worthy, would you be interested in supporting this endeavor?



What would you like to see in the movie? Would you like plans to go with it?

Please help me convince Paul for this be our next KickStarter by giving thumbs up to this post :)

 
master gardener
Posts: 4659
Location: Upstate NY, Zone 5, 43 inch Avg. Rainfall
1939
monies home care dog fungi trees chicken food preservation cooking building composting homestead
  • Likes 15
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
How fitting!

I just picked up a copy of The Humanure Handbook and have started reading it.

I'd contribute.
 
pioneer
Posts: 72
Location: MO, Zone 6a
5
8
forest garden fungi tiny house
  • Likes 14
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
If it would include trombe wall details/shematics and use-cases for trombe vs solar powered dc exhaust fans, I'd contribute.
 
gardener
Posts: 145
Location: Insko, Poland zone 7a
147
cattle purity forest garden fish fungi foraging chicken food preservation bee homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 16
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I would love to see this movie.  

My interest would mainly be in getting easy/basic design ideas to play with that can be adapted to different scenarios, such as mini portable and temporary storage without risking the creation of too much pathogen load, and losing nutrients to off-gassing.  

At the moment we live in a house with flushing toilets, which I refuse to use.  I would love to find ways to improve on our less than perfect approach of collecting into buckets with sawdust and leaf litter and adding into the center of a pile every few weeks, which is the method inspired by Jenkins Humanure handbook.  While it's the easiest solution I've come across so far, Im sure there is room for improvement.  

Pauls latest podcast on the willow feeders was fantastic.  I was left hoping that you all would be able to come up with and release a few designs in an image or diagram form with a short guide to best practices.

Id send some pie/coin toward something like that for sure. Its something that needs to be created at our place ASAP.
 
master gardener
Posts: 3695
Location: Carlton County, Minnesota, USA: 3b; Dfb; sandy loam; in the woods
1800
6
forest garden trees chicken food preservation cooking fiber arts woodworking homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 14
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I don't know that you'd have the footage to support this goal, but it would be most useful to me to see what's the minimum infrastructure I have to put in place to build something like this that's good for one family rather than a community and event center. (But let's be honest, I'll back it at some level regardless.)
 
pollinator
Posts: 614
Location: South East Kansas
208
7
forest garden trees books cooking bike bee
  • Likes 12
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yes, I would support it.

I feel that if you could show everything from plans to building it. I feel the key would be showing how the current system (i.e. sewage lagoons and tanks) use a lot of power. Mostly from moving it from a low spot to a higher one and from one place to another. Sewage lagoons on a city level can be acres of land. Then showing how a willow feeder does not need power and machines to do a good job. Lastly, how if used right makes things better.
 
gardener
Posts: 2125
Location: Gulgong, NSW, Australia (Cold Zone 9B, Hot Zone 6) UTC +10
1008
6
hugelkultur fungi chicken earthworks wofati food preservation cooking bee building solar rocket stoves
  • Likes 8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm in.
 
master pollinator
Posts: 351
Location: Boise, ID
270
5
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati food preservation cooking building medical herbs rocket stoves homestead
  • Likes 8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
YES YES YES!!

The world needs this, I want this, I will back this, let’s go!!
 
Posts: 56
Location: All Heavenly Hosts Homestead - Maine, zone 5
2
5
forest garden building homestead
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Id be down
 
pioneer
Posts: 856
Location: Inter Michigan-Superior Woodland Forest
137
5
transportation gear foraging trees food preservation bike building solar writing woodworking wood heat
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
If Stephen would be up for it, I'd like to see the Poo With a View completed while all of the construction details were being filmed. Or maybe there is a call for another new Willow Feeder?
 
Posts: 8
4
7
  • Likes 18
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm into it!

Please include LOTS of ideas for alternatives to sawdust &/ or where to get lots of sawdust.

Also, include scaling to smaller buckets instead of 30+ gallon cans. I think many of us would rather not have to move full 30 gallon cans and don't want to have to dump smaller buckets into larger cans. Maybe 10 or 15 gallon buckets would work?
 
Apprentice Rocket Scientist
Posts: 330
Location: Province of Granada, Andalucía, Spain
140
5
cooking rocket stoves woodworking wood heat
  • Likes 13
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Great idea!

I would really enjoy a movie about how to manage humanure safely for a beginner crowd.

We have compost toilets set up and talk about it a lot, there seems to be a lack of beginner information out there. Would be great to be like: “oh, and there’s a great, short movie explaining the basics and showing a simple design”.

Also the proper sizing (minimum size) per person would be great to get some knowledge on. How big for example does the collection part need to be for 4 people that stay year around to be able to switch from one to the other and leave it for a whole year?

Or are the willow feeders using barrels?
 
Posts: 1
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
👍
 
Posts: 1
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yes, time for a movie describing the latest and greatest in sensible human waste management. Thank you!
 
                                
Posts: 36
Location: Alamo Lake Arizona
6
  • Likes 10
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I would love to see this movie.  It would be great to include recommendation for different climates.  I live in the desert with little access to sawdust or any other excess organic material for that matter.  Alternatives to sawdust or organic material pretty please.  How about chopped up and dried out invasive species?  Tamarisk, wild mustard, russian thistle etc....would this method kill seeds or further spread the invasive plant?
 
Arthur Wierzchos
gardener
Posts: 145
Location: Insko, Poland zone 7a
147
cattle purity forest garden fish fungi foraging chicken food preservation bee homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 16
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Andrea Bloom wrote:
Please include LOTS of ideas for alternatives to sawdust &/ or where to get lots of sawdust.



Ill throw my two cents in for now if it helps you while you wait for the really great advice to be revealed in the movie...

For sawdust/shavings local saw mills, cabinetry makers, or other wood workers are some of the sources I've found in the past.  Its important to clarify with them if they are cutting woods with glues, paints, or other chemical treatments before accepting any of it - if you want to avoid the toxic gick.  One place i used to pick up from I would always bring the mill owner a 12 pack of beer as a thank you, and specifically his favorite kind of beer.  After a while he stopped letting others take the wood shavings because it ended up being too much of a hassle dealing with people, but he always let me come in. I was getting it by the trailer load.  

Then I moved to Taiwan and didn't really have access to any saw mills, but there was a lot of organic rice being grown in our area.  Again I was able to get connected with a source of high carbon material - the rice husk.  

We also started making biochar from the rice husk, which worked great for our humanure system.  Biochar can be made from all kinds of things.

Dry leaf litter is great, especially if it is smaller leaves, or pulverized through a lawnmower.  Often people will gladly give you their leaf litter.  

Dried grass clippings are another thing we have used.  Vacuuming up and pulverizing through a push mower on a dry day ideally gets you a fine product.

If you don't want the petrochemical footprint they a scythe works great.  Cut the grass strategically and let it dry out in the sun if the weather allows.  Rake it up into storage bags/bins and place into a dry area.

Ive heard of people using shredded paper and cardboard, but I cant say how affective it is, as Ive never really gone that route.  I concur with Mr Wheaton that the glues and inks are probably best avoided.  

Nature provides so much of the materials we need.  Its really about timing, and having the ability to jump on the opportunities as they come, then having a place to store the surplus for when its needed.  

Worst case scenario you can buy some kind of high carbon material from a pet store or a farm and garden dealer.  



 
                                
Posts: 36
Location: Alamo Lake Arizona
6
  • Likes 10
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Can you use ash instead of sawdust???  That I have a lot of!
 
Posts: 23
19
5
  • Likes 9
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I would support this movie.  I wish it already existed!  Thanks for making this a thing.
 
gardener
Posts: 966
Location: SW Missouri • zone 6 • ~1400' elevation
423
fish trees chicken sheep seed woodworking
  • Likes 10
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Very limited funds, but I'd get in at the $1 level. (Might kick in a few more bucks if it looks like it would matter.)
 
gardener
Posts: 1676
639
12
homeschooling hugelkultur trees medical herbs sheep horse homestead
  • Likes 13
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jen Anderson wrote:Can you use ash instead of sawdust???  That I have a lot of!



Hello Jen!


We just had a webinar on willow feeders and someone asked that very question.  

I believe the answer was:
You can build a willow feeder and use only ash.  It will safely and effectively manage your poop.   Ashes and wood shavings behave differently in the bin.  Either one will work but you cannot use both in the same bin.
Pick one or the other and use that exclusively for each bin.

You might want to check out the recent webinar to get the full details.

Here is the link:
https://permies.com/wiki/271114/permaculture-smack-Willow-Feeders-Dec

I think you will have to get pie to see the replay:
https://permies.com/pie


We do live webinars on different permaculture topics almost every Saturday.  People with pie get to participate and ask questions. It is a lot of fun.
 
Paul Fookes
gardener
Posts: 2125
Location: Gulgong, NSW, Australia (Cold Zone 9B, Hot Zone 6) UTC +10
1008
6
hugelkultur fungi chicken earthworks wofati food preservation cooking bee building solar rocket stoves
  • Likes 13
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

T Melville wrote:Very limited funds, but I'd get in at the $1 level. (Might kick in a few more bucks if it looks like it would matter.)

If 100 people chip in $, that is $100.  A dollar is a valuable contribution to any kickstarter.  Not everyone is flush with coin.  That is what makes kickstarters great.
Cheers
 
pollinator
Posts: 206
Location: zone 5b
77
7
kids forest garden books wofati rocket stoves homestead
  • Likes 10
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I am in, would especially appreciate plans as well as maybe some alternatives/alterations for scaling up or down a bit. The scaling cans would be fairly easy, as one could just build a short stand or bench to raise the height of where the can sits, I’d think.

Not sure how much my wife would enjoy using it, but I want one myself after using it when spending two weeks at the first PEP1 event! 😍😂 However, designing plans and laying out an order of steps to build a project like this is not my forte. I can follow directions though…
 
Posts: 2
2
  • Likes 9
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Here's one for you! Do a search for Anna Edley's, Solviva Vermicomposting toilet. It's just like a regular flush toilet, but you'll be amazed at what comes out the other end!
 
Posts: 3
  • Likes 9
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I've been composting my humanure for 20 years. I'm in!
 
pollinator
Posts: 1046
Location: East of England/ Northeast Bulgaria
397
5
cat forest garden trees tiny house books writing
  • Likes 10
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I would support it, though at a lower level.

Our house has a flush toilet, and there is no way on God's earth that my husband would ever use a humanure or willow feeder system instead. I collect and use my urine on the garden and compost heap, but still use the flush toilet for my solid waste. I want to set up a one-person system for dealing with that.

Ideally there needs to be information on scaling down to family, couple, and one-person systems. And I would love to see supporting written materials and transcript of the video, as I have a health problem that means I can't watch more than a few minutes of video at a time without getting a migraine. I've backed most of the Kickstarts over the past few years, and have not been able to watch a single video!
 
pollinator
Posts: 1395
Location: zone 4b, sandy, Continental D
393
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have a totally illegal poop house near my garden: It is disguised as a hand tool shed and no one besides us is visiting it.
Since between pee, poop, sawdust and fall leaves it eventually will get full, I'm thinking about what I'll plant in the hole once the poop house is dragged a few feet away. The TP used in furtherance of my ...goal gets burned.
I suspect that the reason many folks don't talk much about a poop house or humanure is that for the most part, we all have a functioning bathroom, maybe 2, and the idea of making such a huge switch is daunting. Perhaps, also the idea of using human manure evokes dangers of contamination and sickness, but I'm just guessing here..
 
Posts: 1521
111
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
after reading all the comments I kind of have an idea.
but for those of us who dont know it would be helpful to explain
what is a willow feeder
why is it called willow feeder
is an outhouse different? if so? how? and why? (or do I not understand what this is all about)

please understand there are some people who just dont know about these things
 
Andrés Bernal
gardener
Posts: 4818
Location: Colombia - Tropical dry forest
1943
4
forest garden fish fungi trees tiny house earthworks bee solar woodworking greening the desert homestead
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
72! thumbs up, member we need at least 200 :)
 
Posts: 1
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I would like to watch the movie, and plans would be a great bonus. I’ve been think of doing something along these lines for a camp on rural acreage.

👍🏼
 
pollinator
Posts: 114
42
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
This is an interesting project.  I would like to see it, a couple of caveats: I have concerns regarding what should or should not be used as cover in a composting system.  For example, I see in the Humanure book that they suggest using junk mail.  I would not want to see junk mail or colored paper used to cover compost material due to levels of heavy metal such as lead in the colored inks.  That will reside in any compost and is unlikely to be removable except by uptake by vegetation and no humans or animals should eat any of said vegetation as that allows concentration.
Also, is there any way to remove the PUFAs or forever chemicals most humans eat, contain and pass on through their waste?  If so, removal or disposal of toxic components should be a very prominent section of this project.  Put that in there and I would be very interested in donating.
We did not have an in-home toilet until I was around 11 years old.  I remember the outhouse out by the barn as well as in local park facilities.  Noxious places and gathering sites for critters with stingers in the summer.
 
Posts: 1
  • Likes 7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I would love a movie to share with my reluctant friends and family, and plans would be extra special 😁
 
Apprentice Rocket Scientist
Posts: 921
Location: 4a, high mountain dessert
453
3
kids foraging rabbit fiber arts medical herbs bee
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jen Anderson wrote:Can you use ash instead of sawdust???  That I have a lot of!



I've tried this in Cooper Cabin and it did not mitigate smell.
 
Rebekah Harmon
Apprentice Rocket Scientist
Posts: 921
Location: 4a, high mountain dessert
453
3
kids foraging rabbit fiber arts medical herbs bee
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'd like there to be a portion of the movie that covers the legality of willow feeders in a variety of municipalities. Pretty sure in Idaho, Health and Welfare has to sign off on it, and it has to be permitted. Or a fee or something.
 
Rebekah Harmon
Apprentice Rocket Scientist
Posts: 921
Location: 4a, high mountain dessert
453
3
kids foraging rabbit fiber arts medical herbs bee
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I thought I was going to make a willow feeder fun kid video this summer, but never did. I took about 3 minutes of footage. Kids popping out of the toilet seats, or dancing together on the sitting area. Would you like that footage?
 
Andrés Bernal
gardener
Posts: 4818
Location: Colombia - Tropical dry forest
1943
4
forest garden fish fungi trees tiny house earthworks bee solar woodworking greening the desert homestead
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
82! thumbs up, member we need at least 200 :)
 
Posts: 86
Location: Toronto, Ontario
9
10
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'd support this. Since the audience is all over the Eco-scale, I hope it helps convince them it's better than an outhouse. I'm especially concerned it proves the pathogens are gone in the final product. But how to test that?
 
Richard Henry
pollinator
Posts: 114
42
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'd support this. Since the audience is all over the Eco-scale, I hope it helps convince them it's better than an outhouse. I'm especially concerned it proves the pathogens are gone in the final product. But how to test that?

The gas from the system could be tested by collecting it over time and sending it to a certified environmental lab.  The same would be possible for the effluent.  I suggest the collector be someone with experience at taking water tests for hazardous waste sites.  Contact with the lab is a must since they should be sending a trip blank (distilled water sample that just travels to and from the test site; a comparison sample - a sample of what is entering the digester and a sample of completed compost to allow full comparison of starting conditions vs final product.  
 
Posts: 11
Location: France
4
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

bruce Fine wrote:after reading all the comments I kind of have an idea.
but for those of us who dont know it would be helpful to explain
what is a willow feeder
why is it called willow feeder
is an outhouse different? if so? how? and why? (or do I not understand what this is all about)

please understand there are some people who just dont know about these things



This is me. I'm this person who doesn't understand these basics.  

We are talking about putting in a composting toilet inside our home, and maybe having one outside for when we're gardening, or when there are people visiting the garden. Looking at the photo above, I'm wondering if the willow feeder has to be outside. If so, what resources are there for me to create something indoors (people have mentioned the book Humanure, but maybe there are other resources and plans you know of?)

In the comments here some people have mentioned moving their composting toilet to new a spot in the garden. Is that necessary? This would not be ideal for us in our little space.

Ultimately, as a total newbie to the topic, I'd want to know what the parameters of using the willow feeder are before paying for anything. Hope this helps!
 
Tammy Mayer
Posts: 11
Location: France
4
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
In the email, you asked how to get someone from 0 (no knowledge) to 5 (raving fan). Here are some ideas.

T Blankinship wrote: I feel the key would be showing how the current system (i.e. sewage lagoons and tanks) use a lot of power.



YES. This comparison would be really fantastic. To show the overall impact of the current system (flush toilets) compared to the overall impact of your new system. You could even throw in a comparison with 'regular' composting toilets (again, not clear on the differences to Willow Feeders), to demonstrate the value of the new system. This impact could include energy, water use, transportation via truck, etc. It could also be the impact on their personal finances. Or maybe there's a positive impact with regard to manure for the plants? (I'm still a newbie, so I have no idea if this is a thing. I suspect it is.)  

The other thing that was mentioned here in the comments has to do with the bacteria. If your movie trailer (and the movie itself) showed that this system is not going to spread disease, that could help move someone from 0 to a 3 -5. But this fear of poop contamination is hard wired in a lot of people, especially in North America, so this may be one of the biggest hurdles to getting people to even be open to considering the new system.

And the last elements that could help move someone from 0 to 5 quickly has to do with showing the maintenance and the smell. Will they have to touch the poop? How close do they need to get? How often do they need to be in proximity? Can they hire someone to deal with the poop?  At what point will there be a smell? Is there a smell while you use the toilet? Or perhaps when you move the poop?
 
T Melville
gardener
Posts: 966
Location: SW Missouri • zone 6 • ~1400' elevation
423
fish trees chicken sheep seed woodworking
  • Likes 11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Some folks have been asking what a willow feeder is. Paul talks about it in a thread here, and in his podcast here, here and here.
 
Grow a forest with seedballs and this tiny ad:
OffTheLand.net is 100% FREE to sell, barter, and share your abundance LOCALLY!
https://permies.com/t/274612/OffTheLand-net-FREE-platform-sell
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic