how do we tell more people about rocket mass heaters

paul wheaton wrote:I think the core of this is that if the general public wanted rocket mass heaters, then all the other stuff would follow.  

So the first step is to get the most basic information to the general permies.


A guy once heated his home all winter with nothing but junk mail.


That was more than a decade ago.  I think the equivalent today would include amazon shipping boxes.

But is this the piece we need in order to get into millions of brains?

I'm not sure it is.  It's the thing that appeals to people who are early-adopter types.  

The thing that might be a bigger talking point is:

--safer than a wood stove
--cleaner air emissions than a wood stove (see the UK banning wood stoves in the city limits)
--don't have to feed it at 3 am
--can neutrally or positively affect the resale value of your house
--is legal to code in numerous places
--is insured by numerous insurance underwriters
--is UL-listed in one example (and other builds may be even safer)
--is basically the same as a masonry heater, which has a long safety and legal track record and aesthetic appeal, but can be much less expensive to build and more efficient than many masonry heaters

Then, for some point down the road, the junkmail story would be important, but no, I don't think it is the most important.

I wish it were the most important, I want it to be, but the reality is that it is not.  For the majority of people, it is not the deciding factor.  

I could be wrong.

Again, it would help to have some actual market research statistics.

What we have instead are a few anecdotes--"I want one but ___" plus some data on the number of people who've quietly built one under the radar, which data I haven't seen myself but I find it plausible, you know more on that than I do, plus logic (which, again, only does so much).  

What market research would be relevant in parallel success stories from the past?  Hard to say.  Things people have purchased for a few thousand dollars? things people have built themselves at home to improve the resell value of their house? things they have rigged up that have been risky but got them through a disaster scenario?  I'm not sure.  What are some early-adopter-late-adopter examples and what was the structure of the change?  It's not just a number, it also has information flows and patterns of movement and counter movement.  Knowing something more about this could crack the code.

Of course, I wouldn't say to limit the approach by what the market data says.

I'm hearing that your main desire here is to influence the public conversation around this issue, so that the pubic influences code people and insurance people, etc., but I'm not sure that is how things really change.  It might be, but it might be one-on-one conversations, directly sitting one's but on a warm bench, luck...

Influencing public conversation may still be worth it for some reasons, but who within the public specifically would you want to be influencing?  celebrities?  politicians? everyday folks going viral on social media? people desperate enough to try anything?  maybe paint a more specific picture of what you have in mind in your fantasy best-case version of events.

Definitely does not help convince one's wife to get a rocket mass heater.

But well executed.

I'm just gonna have one more look.

Jeremy VanGelder wrote:

Abe Coley wrote:Second idea: After watching a few episodes of the TV show "Nathan For You", my gut instinct tells me that you'd gain a lot of marketing mileage by hiring a busty actress in yoga pants and a skimpy top (or a ripped handsome shirtless dude with six-pack abs) to film a series of informational youtube videos on all the in and outs of RMHs. I've heard through previous discussions that the efficacy of this idea has been borne out by the view count on Paul's RMH video with the thumbnail of Erica Wisner's cleavage.

There is also the less safe for work picture of the RMH in Cooper Cabin.

I would love to put one in my home, and as I live in the UK I think we can only get certain wood stoves signed off - a certified installer would need to put it in. I could go the route of not having it safety checked but that may mean I couldn't have lodgers or rent it out, if I want to.

If anyone knows how it's possible to get one put in & signed off in UK, without any fight or too much hassle (I don't have the energy for any hassle), I'd love to hear! Thanks 🙏

I've been thinking hard on this (yes, it hurts, lol), and what I keep coming back to is the concept of selling millions of people on something many see as a... radical, prepper, fanatical, extreme... kind of thing. We live in a society of sheep, and I don't mean that in a bad way - only that sheep are rarely leaders, they rarely want to do anything different. They're followers. So... maybe? Instead of trying to infect millions upon millions of brains, why not take a cue from the athletic product manufacturers, and just get one or three famous folks on board - mainstream famous, not permies famous. Then, getting the word out: "________ is heating their $$$$ home with a RMH, and LOVES it!!"

Maybe reinventing the wheel wouldn't be necessary, if we can just get a someone or three to fall in love with it.

paul wheaton wrote:

Chuck Zinda wrote:I had read on permies some years ago that rmhs can't hear large spaces, so that creates a large audience who would not benefit. When you talk about using scrap wood, there just is not enough energy for complete households.

One rocket mass heater per 2000 square feet.  

They can do large spaces.  And really large spaces will have more than one rocket mass heater.

Can someone clarify if that means, one RMH will heat a 2000 sq ft house, or if it means one RMH can heat one big 2000 sq ft room?

paul wheaton wrote:

Here's the "beautiful rocket mass heaters" thread which includes some europe builds

https://permies.com/t/40573/beautiful-rocket-mass-heaters

My guess is that there are probably a few dozen more rocket mass heaters to be added to that thread.  But for now:

No question that these are two of the nicest RMH I have seen.  I love them.  I think it will still be a battle selling the idea of putting a big ugly trash-burning looking barrel in the middle of a beautiful house to the average family.  Figuring a way to fix that part may go a long way as well toward selling them.

Trace Oswald wrote:
No question that these are two of the nicest RMH I have seen.  I love them.  I think it will still be a battle selling the idea of putting a big ugly trash-burning looking barrel in the middle of a beautiful house to the average family.  Figuring a way to fix that part may go a long way as well toward selling them.

I recall from one of the RMH movies I've watched, the barrel is not the only thing that can be used, right?
Not sure what the other options are, but I remember that being stated. That it's just used because it's so cheap and easily available.

Sarah Theo wrote:I would love to put one in my home, and as I live in the UK I think we can only get certain wood stoves signed off - a certified installer would need to put it in. I could go the route of not having it safety checked but that may mean I couldn't have lodgers or rent it out, if I want to.

If anyone knows how it's possible to get one put in & signed off in UK, without any fight or too much hassle (I don't have the energy for any hassle), I'd love to hear! Thanks 🙏

I've heard mixed things on UK regulations on this! I'm trying to find out more.
This thread discussed it recently: https://permies.com/t/190719/RMH-british-regulations

I used a RMH in Missouri to heat a log cabin on two five gallon buckets of forest scraps to 65* a night in winter. I tried to teach many folks that asked to see it and offered to help. I’m learning the majority want things done for them. Like, I build it, feed it and clean it for them?? I see that in many other tasks and aspects all around me.

My thoughts on “a RMH or a gas heater”? Both if you already have gas. Use gas as a back up for a vacation, or anytime you’re not around. It’s there and ready, already waiting in the background. Just a much much lower bill.

One of my discoveries lately, as my roommate works for a catalyst company for burning chemicals off for industries. They create a kind of catalytic converter and blast furnace everything across it and out, using extreme amounts of gas, fast.
If it was designed like an RMH and held the fumes and heat longer in an upward burn, an RMH technique, think how much gas they would save, in the same way, and be cleaner coming out, with less effort as well. If this took off across industries and people found out where the idea came from, an RMH, I would think that would make serious reputation in energy news. I think industries burn a bit more than the equal of homes do, so cutting their mass use helps save for home use.

Just my 2 cents?

Guy

I agree with those saying there needs to be a kit of some sort.
Even better, a lot of homes already have an existing fireplace and chimney.  If one could design a modular Rocket heater with the option to fit nicely into an existing fireplace, and then route the air through the thermal mass, etc. and end up venting out the existing chimney, I think a lot of people would be open to it.  I definitely would.  We rent, so we can't do any construction to our place, but if a modular kit with gravel filler was available I would buy it and stick it in the fireplace that we currently don't use.

Also:  videos need a more stunning cover image, and titles for videos need to be more click-baity.  But really it comes down to most people are not going to haul mud or do construction for a week to accomplish this, and if they are DIYing it they are putting a lot of faith in themselves that it's not going to burn their house down.  If they are new to the idea they don't have that faith.  If they can purchase the parts from an official company and even have a potential install offered, I imagine that would help with the trust issue.
Perhaps we need a "Why Rocket Mass Heaters are SAFER than traditional Fireplaces" video...

==========================================================================================
                      You are cordially invited to


                       -- Wood Mass Heater Day --

[First Saturday in October]
at [host's address here]

Hello Neighbor,

Come visit a wood mass heater in your neighborhood.  You'll get to experience the warmth yourself, learn about codes, insurance, safety, and aesethic and cost considerations, and the impact you can have on your children and children's lives.  

Refreshments will be served.

=============================================================================================================================


This plus up-to-date info on codes and insurance policies and safety talking points, with demo of the RMH in operation.

--

I just discussed this idea on the phone with the folks at the Liberator company and they said they'll look into it, take a look at their market data/sale data I guess.  We'll see.


But people who have a code-approved masonry heater, RMH, or anything at all that is substantively more efficient than a wood stove would be welcome to participate.

If yours isn't code-approved and you're situated such that you don't have to meet codes, that is also fine.  (Actually, I can't stop anyone from holding a Wood Mass Heater Day event, it's not copyright).

I think this would go a long way toward the next leg of progress, and consolidate progress already made effectively.

Trace Oswald wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:

Chuck Zinda wrote:I had read on permies some years ago that rmhs can't hear large spaces, so that creates a large audience who would not benefit. When you talk about using scrap wood, there just is not enough energy for complete households.

One rocket mass heater per 2000 square feet.  

They can do large spaces.  And really large spaces will have more than one rocket mass heater.

Can someone clarify if that means, one RMH will heat a 2000 sq ft house, or if it means one RMH can heat one big 2000 sq ft room?

Paul's place, the Fisher Price house, has (let me count) I think 6 to 8 rooms, so  . . .

"house."

...one RMH will heat a 2000 sq ft house

Trace Oswald wrote:No question that these are two of the nicest RMH I have seen.  I love them.  I think it will still be a battle selling the idea of putting a big ugly trash-burning looking barrel in the middle of a beautiful house to the average family.  Figuring a way to fix that part may go a long way as well toward selling them.

Matt Walker's riserless core stoves are usually built out of bricks, without a barrel. They have the form and function of your grandmother's wood fired cook stove, and the aesthetics of an old brick house. Most RMHs can be tiled, which could give them the aesthetics of European masonry heaters.

Google "Winter Around the Irori" -- Rural Japanese people traditionally lived in uninsulated wood and paper houses. Japan is a country with hard, cold winters.   I think a rocket stove could be adapted to this old way of keeping warm.

I think a lot of people have heard of rocket mass heaters,  but too daunted by the task of building one to do it.  Not everyone is a McGyver.  I’d like to see ads for people who build them, and I think it is a very viable industry, especially for those who will travel and build on site.    

Often when I did not have much wood,  or so overworked I did not have time to gather it, I merely tried to keep the house warm enough to keep the pipes from freezing.  My house doesn’t usually freeze anyway, never had frozen pipes due to (1)house being on a slab. (2)earth bermed on one end and part of back. (3) sunroom on the front sequesters heat.  (4) plastic over all windows.  I leave the plastic up year around on most windows.  I like to use the window plastic with the double sided tape because it seals all leaks.  Made sure there were no air leaks around doors and windows, recaulking or sealing where necessary.  The plastic layer seems to insulate even better than double pane windows.  Then in winter, heavy drapes which can open during daytime to let sunlight (passive solar gain) in and close at night.  

Apartment dwellers are a different ballgame, but they have the benefit of being sandwiched between other units unless they are at the end, and even so, still have adjoining units which tend to be more efficient because it is not all an outside wall.  

If your house has walls which get very cold in winter, try putting decorative quilts over them.  It helps.   Run your hand over any electrical outlets and if cold air is coming thru cut up closed cell thin foam to put inside.  Check your ductwork too, with all registers coming in.  Just closing them doesn’t insulate much if cold air is getting around the ductwork because it was not properly insulated.  I put small sheets of the foam inside the registers too, to block that cold air coming in, as I no longer use the central system.  Made a huge difference.  

The trick to staying healthy and reasonably comfortable in a cold house is not only to layer and dress for it, but have a warm place to sleep at night or to crawl into to warm up if you get too cold.  Drape the bed with a makeshift tent covered with warm blankets, with a small opening to allow air circulation so you can breath.  It keeps the weight off your body and your own body heat will surprisingly heat the area to make the air you are breathing much warmer.  Keep any clean clothes you are going to change into in the morning, inside it with you so they are warmer.   Keep in mind a thin mattress will allow cold air to penetrate and keep you cold from the bottom.  If that’s all you have, put cardboard, newspaper or blankets underneath it, or a couple of extra blankets under you for an extra layer of insulation. A space blanket works really good on the bottom of the mattress.  Just be aware of getting too warm, and remove some top layers if you do.  Maybe a flannel sheet is enough over the tent part and jammies that are not quite so warm.   Also eat to stay warm in winter, more fats/oils in the diet, as that is your most efficient fuel.  Plenty of Vitamin C too, it keeps the immune system up and helps circulation.   Don’t stop preparing healthy meals just because you are cold and want to hibernate.  

Just a few short generations ago our ancestors were hardy and skilled at survival.  The present generations of kids scares me.  I worry for their survival,  because they have no basic skills or very few of them do as far as how to live off grid, and come up with food and fuel.  

We all need to start networking with neighbors, checking on each other and helping each other any way we can.  We’ll make it thru this also.  

yo my man paul, first thing that comes to mind is the possibility for a catchy (cliche?) slogan along the lines of:

"you don't have to be a rocket scientist, or even simply a good observer of the already-proven rocket mass heaters to know that rocket mass heaters is one of the best ways to go" (with a fine print or fast word legal-like disclaimer shooting off other tips on how to keep warm, including having a small dwelling, NOT hoping for increased global warming, smartly using your own body's energy, adding more layers of clothing made of x, y, z materials, etc.)

I Would LOVE ONE! how do I put mass on a 1940's pier and beam home that can barely hold a modern appliance? I am a single female with limited knowledge please be kind!

One of the things I thought of is that your opening letter is great but is like a private conversation. So it can not be forwarded. If you sent out a mass email which could be forwarded perhaps it would be and more folks would hear. I do realize that your utubes can be shared.
 I appreciate that when you pose a question you reply to some of the responses.

Very timely.  I've recently been reviewing (again) rocket heaters, wood stoves, production factories, etc.  I'm looking to see if there is a design close enough for mass production.  I've been following rocket heater work (permies, youtube, etc) for over a decade.  

The early adopters had the time, intellect, and inclination to invest in building beautiful well performing stoves and were willing to devote significant square footage to it.  The very large majority of people aren't interested in building something, don't have the money to pay someone, if they did have the money there is a shortage of skilled labor,  don't want to devote a lot of square footage to the thermal mass, and don't want to have to tinker with it.  

 What is needed to weather a crisis like what is happening in Europe  (likely coming soon to the US) is widespread adoption of small, mass produced, cost effective stoves that people can just buy off the shelf and are quick to install.  Is this stove a rocket stove?....I'd hope so as when a large percent of people are heating with wood unless it is really efficient you are going to have a pollution problem and a wood shortage.     I've looked at the Liberator...it frankly needs to be at about 1/3 the price point to see widespread adoption.

anything I'm missing?  what do I have wrong here?

More thoughts:

-As others pointed out, it needs to be UL listed and EPA approved
--With new wood burners it will need to be safe and robust against dumb mistakes

-You'd like it to be able to retrofit into existing chimneys, be free standing, and be moveable

-You want it to function with no electricity

-You'd like people to be able to enhance it as they become comfortable with it.  The basic stove allows you and your pipes to make it through the winter and heat a pot of food/water/beans.  Then later there is an option to add thermal mass in some fashion, then later water heating capability can be integrated, etc.  

-I'm thinking just in my general (low population density) area to make an impact a goal would be maybe  50 stoves produced and installed per day.

I think the easiest thing to do to get this information out faster would be to focus on what you covered at the end of the video - they're pretty and fit well into a comfortable lifestyle. I was really blown away by the pictures you put in there, as someone who's new to permaculture. They looked like luxury upgrades (and a bonus heated bench really is!). I sent the video to my permie co-conspirator as soon as I saw it to see if we can make one.

Other folks in here have already pointed out the harder option - adding in quick action steps to get ahold of one of these that are easily within the skill level of your average viewer and completable before the winter.

Once you have the information on how to make it happen, use those pretty pictures to advertise the idea on DIY friendly sites like Pinterest (or if you're feeling brave, Instagram).

straight forward necessity is what will be required to flip rmh mainstream, or else this coming winter will be the one when humanity destroyed trees

I built my first (only permanent) RMH in a self-built sunroom about 5 years ago, and despite having significant scientific, engineering, and DIY experience, struggled a little bit with the resources at hand.   This includes (can't put my hand on them now) books describing classic european "twig stoves" and "masonry stoves" and  "bell stoves" and so forth which were essentially precursors to the "modern" RMH.  I also have books on vernacular architecture, etc. from the "golden age" of DIY (60s, 70s) homesteading that describe various ancient hypocaust implementations.

Nevertheless I had to build several backyard prototypes before I really was convinced that I had the principles and proportions down.  Had I just followed any of the resources as provided I think I would have ended up with one of three results: 1) A near-perfect reproduction of one of the Weisner's examples; 2) an ugly variation on 1 following very closely to all of it's features but uglier; 3) a really awesomely designed piece for my space that didn't work at all!

As it is, I achieved 3) with the exception that it barely/sorta/almost works despite a couple of rebuilds.   It basically starts and fires modestly well and then after some unspecified burn time (20-60 mins) it can start to back-draft slightly.  

I beat that 3 ways.  1) I have a direct-draft route to shift to when it starts to act up. 2) I have a solar-recharged recycled Honda Insight battery pack to drive a 12v  inline fan at the exit from the mass; 3) I can just shut it down with a loose cap on the burn-chamber... and it burns on out with enough positive draft to turn remaining bits of fuel to ash.    

So far I mostly just use option 2/3 together because it is easier... I turn it on when I light to get an uber-draft, then off while I run a batch or two of fuel through and then turn the fan back on if/when it might back up assuming I want to run more batches through... otherwise I just run the fan for a few minutes as I cap to make sure it's burning hot and not backing up when I cap it.  I believe the main problem I have is that my exhaust is a 30' tall conventional woodstove stack (what I put in when I first built the sunroom) and that a side-exhaust (the hottest part of my exhaust rarely goes about 72f) would possibly keep me from going into back draft mode.


I have a lot of DIY and earth-friendly friends, and without exception I would say they are *all* afraid of building their own heating (wood or other combustable) systems... they are afraid of *fire* and they are afraid of smoking out their house and of Carbon Monoxide poisoning.    They are also afraid of code inspectors and insurance companies.   I have heated with wood one way or another 90% of my life (including as a child) and have even had a few chimney fires along the way and smoked up a few houses, but *never* had a house fire nor ever felt at risk of poisoning myself.   But that is a *lot* of famliarity and experience, and the bad experiences I had were in somewhat controlled circumstances so I *learned* from them.

I will almost surely never build another home from scratch, but if I *did* I would definitely build in more than one RMH *and* probably floor/wall hypocausts rather than just bench-heat masses.  

I *do* think that the Liberator may well make some headway and that educating/familiarizing more home design-build professionals will *eventually* help.  I live in an epicenter (near Santa Fe, NM) of Adobe building, but most people building with Adobe are filthy rich (it is so labor intensive to do it to code) and put in central heat systems for comfort and kiva-style (highly drafty/inefficient) fireplaces for charm.

I chose to build this RMH because I already heat entirely by solar and wood, and I wanted to reduce the amount of wood I bring in from offsite while eliminating the woody material I haul away.   I'm nearly down to 0 on both fluxes, especially if I *overheat* the sunroom and let it heat the main house... my traditional use was to just keep the sunroom (well) above freezing in the dead of winter and to extend the growing season (early/late) with extra warmth.   It already provides sunny-day net gain, but I have rarely fired the RMH if/when the sunroom is already at/above desired house temperature (70f)...

Long way of saying I think the world of RMHs but think there are *many* social and *some* practical barriers to wide (and rapid) adoption.    I think the work going on here helps immensely, as does commercial efforts such as the Liberator.

paul wheaton wrote:

Diane Colboch wrote:If it were commercialized and there were businesses that installed them at a reasonable price...I would buy one and have it installed.  No way do I think I could build one.

You could buy a UL listed liberator and have it installed by anybody that installs wood stoves in your area.

Lol I clicked the link and it says "this video is private" and won't let me watch.  

Ironic. Kind of goes along with how it's hard to get rmh info to people.

David Royal wrote:

Jeremy VanGelder wrote:
For those of you who are asking questions about legality and insurance and such. Are those questions holding you back from telling your friends about RMHs? If you got acceptable answers, would you tell your friends about them?

For me, yes and yes.

Yes and yes.

Hey Paul! How to tell more people?
How about a YouTube joint creator campaign? The numbers on these are astounding! You could piggy-back off of other channel's subscribers to quickly broadcast a message to millions of new people.

For instance, here are 4 permie-type folks I follow:
Huw Richards- 650 K subscribers
Rob Greenfield - 409 K
Off Grid w/Doug and Stacey - 926 K
Self-Sufficient Me - 1.1 M!

(The list goes on and on...)

With a joint campaign, the message can reach millions for the first time, or make a deeper impact the second time.

A basic plan: 1. Reach out to other YouTube creators.
2. schedule one crazy week for a video project to be launched by them all.
3. Offer a free workshop soon afterwards with you and a panel of experts online.
4. At the end, offer a master class type-thing for people to build their own RMHs in their own homes with an expert to offer a blueprint and answer questions. Folks would pay for this! It's an important step, because the more builds there are, the more butts will be warmed by RHMs, the more news will spread.

Fast. Free. Informative! And lots of helpers can join in.

After thinking this over again, maybe what's really important is to sort out for example, three different ways one could throw together a RMH from commonly obtainable materials that would be durable enough and efficient enough to help people survive the coming winter by burning whatever kind of wood they can get their hands on.

RMH for the Apocalypse.

OBVIOUSLY, improving the efficiency of heating methods is key. It may well be much of that has nothing, whatsoever, to do with the heating method and everything to do with how we build structures in which they are used.

For example, a hundred years ago, you could find many a home built with no wind barrier aside from some newspapers tacked to the interior of the walls. Too, dead air space for insulation was just the gap between two walls that, most likely, were drafty.

Later, tarpaper was added, cutting down on drafts. Now we have things like Tyvec. Insulation was added giving us millions of tiny dead air spaces, rather than just one questionable dead air space.  Then we made the walls thicker, allowing thicker insulation. Too, different types of insulation were added.

The above mentioned improvements went a long ways to improving the efficiency of heating homes using any heating method.  All the while, old technology remained ideal in many situations. Taking advantage of going into the ground to minimize temp changes, for example. That applied whether it meant going into a cave or actually digging in the ground and building a means of being protected from the elements.

Interestingly, even as government agents hold themselves out as stewards of the environment and promoters of sound building practices, few promote taking advantage of natural things that offer impressive physical advantages over manmade materials, such as dirt and mass.

I've lived in three houses with daylight basements that, when the weather became intolerably hot, were welcomed areas of escape from that heat. Then, there was that, in the winter, when temps plummeted, those escape areas became refuges where only a little effort was needed to fend off the deadly cold.

An ideal for any construction might include at least enough dirt to allow building old school root cellars, whether by digging down or by bringing dirt in. It might be focusing on building into hills and mountains, rather than atop them.

.  .  .  .

Aldo Caine wrote:Honestly, I have been following along on rocket mass heaters ... I still don't feel like there is a go-to, one stop, this is how you build one, type of article.

...if someone posted a step by step this is how you build it the easiest way with home depot parts, I would likely do it.

God bless cob and everything, but meet me halfway with conventional building materials and get me hooked with a basic functional model and steps to build it

Cob.  every post with "cob" relishes in it, lusts for it, enters a special place with cob at their side.    Clay and Straw.  Apparently found in abundance on certain "homesteads".   hehehe.

  Cob replacement:  Concrete?  if you were contracted to build a RMH at an apartment, it wouldn't be with cob.  

Venting materials (18 foot inside the "bench") appear to be aluminum venting, available at home depot or similar store.

The feeder and firebox apparently or at least possibly are made from salvaged materials.   Most often by person who either know how to weld or have friends.  This is how they say "no cost".   It sure as (pardon my French) represents 'cost' to me.  (I found this so I'll pop that right off with my angle grinder, then my cutter thingy and spot weld this into place here after applying more cob-  No cost at all!)  Serious faces.  I get it, but good gracious.

for me, about what I can do is connect galvanized threaded pipe-  UN likely to salvage any where!!  But I can use concrete (not Fire Blocks?  lol)  to fashion a burn up the gas return and allow for a feeder system.

Last year, I just froze on some days...so time to light up!!

I do have plenty of firewood from some modest trees I cut two years ago.  They might be dry by now...

Hehehe.  Hope you do what you can Aldo!!

I’m not sure that’s the right question. Implementation in average existing housing stock prevents people who learn about it from moving forward.  I looked at a bunch of the videos and dove into learning about rmh. While learning I have kept open my mind for how we could make this work in our house. I don’t see it yet. I have not heard any discussions about making this work for the majority of houses in the US. Most people do not live in MOntana. (We only wish we did!). Get some architects involved and make some RMH that would work in the average middle class home. Back to my situation.  Our house was built in stages. The first stage was the late 1700’s. Those rooms have shallow fireplaces meant for heating with coal. There are three more fireplaces from renovations in the mid 1800’s, including a huge stone double hearth fireplace - one hearth faces the  dining room and the other the kitchen. We installed a Morso squirrel in the dining room hearth. In the den we installed a small Jotel stove in that fireplace. I cannot fathom how we would reconfigure to include a RMH into our situation. Where do I go from here? Where are examples that look more like they belong in average houses?

Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:Very apt.

Can you clarify what's in the "chasm"?  I see a shark...and not a tiny one.  But I'm assuming there's something that does get across that chasm, and some clarity about what's actually going on there?  

Henk Lenting wrote:Seems to me that you need to apply some "diffusion of innovation" theory, where each fase needs specific kinds of communication


(Not my picture)

Most information out there now is aimed at the very first and maybe the second fase of innovation. You'll never reach masses with only communications like that.

The chasm is a scary thing indeed! Most innovations don't manage to ever cross it because the people behind them stay in the patterns they're used to from the first stages. To get to the masses, I think the RMH has to be presented as something that fits in everyone's life. The people who currently build them are those with alternative lifestyles, who like being different. We need the people who just want heat in their home to build one. Maybe those who have been using pellet stoves, who can't source them at a reasonable price now (at least in Europe this is a problem people are facing right now) Maybe other people facing rising energy prices. Maybe....

The thing is, a lot of details about what to do and what not to do may discourage these people from getting into RMHs. To entice straightforward people, straightforward instructions may work much better, presenting it as a sure thing. With all due respect, I think Paul might be stuck in a pattern of thinking that only works for people who want to be at the forefront of innovation.

In this day and age the best thing might be some mainstream influencers staying in Airbnb's with a RMH, and raving about how easy and cosy their experience was.

I don't have the answers and I'm definitely not an expert either, just hoping to provide some fresh point of view.

Another thought on making a mass produced stove that is inexpensive and easy to install.

The thermal mass size and construction (e.g. cob bench) prevents widespread adoption and drives the price very high.  I say this as for widespread adoption you have to realize people will not be doing their own labor, they will hire, the labor doesn't exist except at a price point that makes the whole thing only for the rich.  It is like Adobe buildings.  The rich afford them with hired labor, and the poor laborers afford them with labor (in the old days, most people are too lazy now) .  

As Sean pointed out upthread, even those mostly in the lifestyle are scared to build a stove, scared of carbon monoxide, scared of the hulking cob mass.

The solution to this isn't getting the word out...it is coming up with a mass produced product.

The traditional wood stove can be mass produced and easily/quickly installed, you put in a lot of wood and dump a lot of heat out the chimney or creosote it up, but the stove DOES act as the thermal mass and radiant heater and does a fine job at that...it is just the burn method and chimney design that is the issue.   The thermal mass size is sufficient because you throttle the thing back giving a long slow burn.

So why not combine the two.     What I'm thinking is a slow pellet feed (like the liberator 2) but a smaller burn chamber and chimney in a smaller unit.  Can you still get the rocket effect, with the trickle in of pellets and a smaller burn chamber and chimney?  If so you can get a long slow burn that doesn't exceed the thermal mass of the stove itself...Now it heats with convection and radiation like a traditional wood stove, but burns clean and efficiently with like a rocket stove and comes in a package that can be mass produced and easily installed by "normal" people.  

Lina Joana wrote:How are nuclear reactors talked about? . . .  Others have also said that the focus should be creating a path for professional builders and contractors to pull permits, run the numbers on engineer stamped plans, and feel comfortable putting  their names and reputations behind installing a rocket mass heater in the average home. Will the result be better than what an intelligent diyer who follows the instructions already out there can do? Probably not. But most people aren’t intelligent diyers who can follow all the directions. They need a “professional “, licensed bonded an insured person working on their home to feel comfortable with it.
Without that, I don’t see a magic bullet to deliver the info to more people. It would require a sea change in pur attitudes - to a willingness to spend a lot of time educating ourselves and trusting our own judgement and abilities - and the willingness of building inspectors and insurers to believe in us too.

Well said. Lina Joana.  I don't think people are against heating their homes for less cost, they just don't know how to do it by themselves and they are not aware that Paul/Permies has a better way.  And, in addition, if they try to DIY and fail in this regard, the outcome is that your idea is ridiculed and their insurance does not pay out. This is the path to failure.  If you want to have tens of thousands of homes heated with an RMH then you have to figure out the markets and flood them with the right information.  In short, if you want to play in "their world," you have to play by their rules.  Consumers can't build shit -- or at least the vast majority of them can't -- and their insurance companies punish them when they do. Commercial HVAC businesses and new construction builders probably don't know about the RMH, so they are not going to promote it.

Take, for example, the UK market.  The world news is rife with articles about how the Brits are (literally) freezing to death as fuel costs have gone through the roof because of Putin's attack on Ukraine. Is this a market for you?  Probably not, because there is no readily available fuel source for these people, and you are a long way away from modifying the plans to use manufactured wood pellets to fuel a RMH. and that would only add to the cost, bla, bla, bla.

If it was my product, my invention, there are a series of issues that I would address before I would try to market it to these basic audiences -- #1 the HVAC associations and industries, etc. who (potentially) would like to add this as a service to its customers -- that is, aftermarket installations in private homes.  #2 I'd also get in front of new home construction associations (and at their conventions) to promote an RMH design in constructing new homes.  #3  I would do one ton of marketing to state-level government agencies that are trying to save the people who are freezing to death.  #4 I would introduce the product to the consumer DYI market that is smart enough to follow your directions -- not the DIY market that is making birdhouses and bookshelves.  It'll cost a bit of coin but you don't have to follow all 4 paths at the same time.

What do others here think about this method of promoting RMH?

I know about RMHs since many years (even longer than I'm active here on Permies). There are some reasons why I do not yet have a RMH:
- I live in a rented apartment. A RMH will not be approved by the owner (Housing corporation);
- I can not build a RMH myself. If there would be an opportunity for me to go live in a house where a RMH can be made, I would need a certified RMH builder. Only a few days ago I found out there is such a builder in my region! He doesn't use the English name Rocket Mass Heater, but I saw pictures and it's exactly the same (with a Dutch name).

I keep reading in this thread and in another something thread something like this statement:

Rachel said, " Implementation in average existing housing stock prevents people who learn about it from moving forward.

While I admit I have not built one though I believe if one can be built in a tent or even the Fisher Price House why not put one in a regular home?

Here is a list of builders:

https://permies.com/wiki/122347/List-Rocket-Mass-Heater-Builders

Here are some that look like they are in regular homes:





From here

The Fisher Price RMH:



From here

RMH in a Tipi:



Tiny RMH



Minnie Mouse in the Love Shack



Here is an RMH for someone living in a rental aka portable:



https://permies.com/t/149629/Uncle-Mud-DIY-CottageRocket-Portable

[quote=paul wheaton]13 years ago I saw my first rocket mass heater.  I took shitty video and put it on youtube because I thought people gotta learn about this.  

The whole concept is stunning.  This is a world changer.  

And the world just can't seem to be bothered.  "

[size=18]Not can't be bothered. There are a whole lot of obstacles. A RMH has to built, and it's a major undertaking. Most people are saddled with mortgage/job/kids/school and anything unusual requires a lot lot of mental and emotional energy, and is a potential threat to their home value, insurance, relationships.
The risks are very high, and for many the rewards marginal (as the costs of global warming are not felt directly). For those most in need of the cost savings it may be unaffordable (if it is even permissible).
You're combating a whole world system.
And that's before getting into that most people in the world live in dense cities, in apartments or condos, rent or are otherwise controlled (HOA, City ordinances etc).
[b]Don't fret about those that wont/can't[/b]; focus on those that could, would, want to.
It's a niche market; go niche. It's elite, it's special, it's 'out there'. Play to the audience.

[/size][size=12] [/size]

Brody Ekberg wrote:
Ive brought this up once before and even reached out to his website trying to get you or anyone else in the permaculture field on the show but so far haven’t gotten a response. But Joe Rogan can help you infect a hundred million more brains, if you can manage to get on the show.

Feel free to keep trying.  I think if Paul could get on a podcast every week with all kinds of people, he would be happy to do it.

Sam Benson wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:

Diane Colboch wrote:If it were commercialized and there were businesses that installed them at a reasonable price...I would buy one and have it installed.  No way do I think I could build one.

You could buy a UL listed liberator and have it installed by anybody that installs wood stoves in your area.

Lol I clicked the link and it says "this video is private" and won't let me watch.  

Ironic. Kind of goes along with how it's hard to get rmh info to people.

I'm confused.  What you quoted has no links.

I don't know what competes with rocket mass heaters in Europe. In north Michigan, where I live, it is outdoor wood furnaces. Cons of these - they take a lot of wood , sometimes 5 or more times what a woodstove or 2 in the house used n you need a generator if the power goes out to keep them running, produce a lot of smoke n creosote resulting sometimes in chimney /woodshed/housefires.must go outside to load the stove.
Pros- cleaner heat because the wood, smoke n creosote are outside. Fire lasts a long time. Can be purchased and installed for you or purchased and self installed. Heats hot water too.
 I haven't noticed folks mentioning that rmh are safer and cleaner than conventional stoves but they must be since you use less wood, keep the fire going less, expell less smoke n basically burn up the creosote instead of needing to clean it out of the stove, stovepipe n chimney.
 Up here the insurance companies are less of an issue with those who own their homes or already heat with wood. It seems like an rmh is more comparable to a very efficient fireplace, which is sometimes built with a lot of mass rather than to a woodstove.
 In a new home both the building department n insurance company could be a roadblock. One way around that would be to include an approved heat and add the rmh later. Definitely would be a plus to win the two powers over.
 It's the same kind of struggle folks are having about livestock being outlawed even though virtually any other animal ,many which are dangerous, is legal.
 Thanks Paul for sending an email.I have been able to forward!! It's an aid in communication!!