curing camera shyness and the fear of speaking to a microphone?

What's the cure for a fear of speaking in a microphone or being recorded on a camera?

I tried doing it more and desensitizing, but it just makes the fear worse.

I wish I could help, but I tend to avoid the lens like the plague, myself.

I've heard it just takes time.  I can speak in front of 50 people just fine but a single camera lens is way harder.  But each time it gets 10% better...

In college I took an in-depth public speaking course that covered a whole spectrum of situations (dressed-up formal, informal, sitting, standing, large group, small group, lectern+microphone, etc.) presentation topics (casual, highly technical, sales-like, etc.) visual aids (slide, whiteboards, pure hand-waving, etc.) and preparation time (a week, a day, 30 minutes, instant-gotcha situation, etc.).

The most effective fear-cure was that every presentation was videotaped. Each student had a personal videocasette that recorded only their presentations and was watched only by themselves in private.  The terror of my first viewing was balanced by the realization that I looked and sounded only half as awful as I'd expected. With repetition, I learned to identify and avoid the most annoying of my personal speech/body tics and to cease caring about the least annoying.

Mike Haasl wrote:I've heard it just takes time.  I can speak in front of 50 people just fine but a single camera lens is way harder.  But each time it gets 10% better...

This. Except, I don't seem to get better, with video, only cameras. I hate how my voice sounds, outside of my head, including singing, and yet, others tell me they don't get why I'd hate my singing voice. The way we hear our own voice is mechanically very different, from how others hear us.

 Look into Toastmasters.  I learned about them right out of the Army. I started selling vacuums door to door. Wow, try knocking on a strangers door with your mental state, that's where I was. I got past it, started selling cars. Got into other things, now twenty years later we sell at a dozen farmers markets a week and talk to thousands of people. Good Luck.

Dc Stewart wrote:... I learned to identify and avoid the most annoying of my personal speech/body tics and to cease caring about the least annoying.

I always look and sound twice as bad as I expect.  

Giving a talk in front of a few hundred people - easy
the same in front of one microphone - impossible.  

Don't speak to the microphone.

Don't speak to the thousands of potential viewers.

Speak to the ONE person who you're trying to reach. 'See' them the other side of the camera. Make eye contact with them. Not some random person, one actual living, breathing, personal friend who really will watch your video and hear your words and respond to you.

Just don't use their name...

humility?
just my opinion, when speaking in public with a purpose and you know your subject matter, just do it, your the expert who is teaching or helping or informing others.
I used to stroll busy streets with my guitar and perform my songs, its just what I did. I guess they call it busking today. I didn't do it for money I just did it cuz it was what I liked to do.
to bounce my new songs off of others who didn't know me from Adam and get honest opinions about what I was doing. it was fun. why would you want to speak in front of a crowd if it the subject matter or what you are imparting wasn't something you enjoy. as far as the camera. that im not sure I spent a good part of my life as a professional photographer, I was the one behind the lens not in front of it. but I guess its a matter of being comfortable in your own skin. and if like doing a video to communicate with others I guess maybe  its just a matter of looking through or past the lens and trying to connect with others. but I'm no expert just my opinion

Dc Stewart wrote:every presentation was videotaped. Each student had a personal videocasette that recorded only their presentations and was watched only by themselves in private.  The terror of my first viewing was balanced by the realization that I looked and sounded only half as awful as I'd expected. With repetition, I learned to identify and avoid the most annoying of my personal speech/body tics and to cease caring about the least annoying.

^^ this, except it was a course for my education credential in college. Our final presentations (teaching a full, hands-on class) were recorded, but we all watched clips together, just a few minutes for each person-- enough to show the tics (which the professor pointed out kindly but without making you see it over and over again), and everyone was encouraged to point out good, strong points about the others. It sounds like a nightmare scenario but it was amazingly helpful and we all left feeling like a million bucks.

(the classic advice is apparently to just imagine the camera is being recorded to show to your mom/gran/best friend/spouse who isn't there right now, but I could never do that)

R, do you feel the same way about camera/mic if doing a video chat? If it's less bad, perhaps this would be a way to ease in, knowing it's not being recorded at first, then adding recording but keeping the chat format, then branching out?

All speculation as I have no intention of 'curing' my own perfectly rational loathing of cameras...

Having a clear purpose helps. The microphone or camera are tools. The fear of them and dislike of the result are no different than fear of knives which can keep you from using them or spur you on to learn how to sharpen and use one. Or fear of power tools or a gun or bow or a woodstove or barbeque or water or animals. Having a reason to get over your hurdle is the key. No difference really.
Fear can cripple or spur. All people struggle with it. If you are going to do well in any area you have to learn to manage yourself. If you don't then you will not excell in that area. It's really that simple. Most of the time it means learning how to use a tool. The microphone for example, so that your voice is picked up well and consistently. Recording can really help you assess your skill. It's that simple. You will get used to it if you persist. Keep at it like you mean it.

The way the Dale Carnegie course cures the fear of public speaking is that all feedback is positive. No backhanded comments. No suggestions or corrections cleverly disguised as compliments. Just positive and encouraging. Also, applause.

One example may be of a person literally unable to make words come out of their mouth. The comment is 'Very brave of you to come on stage'. No suggestions.

Even knowing that this is how all feedback will be provided it apparently works. Repetition seems key.

Do you think you can find a few people that you can privately 'perform' for or share your work with to receive this kind of feedback?

D Nikolls wrote:R, do you feel the same way about camera/mic if doing a video chat?

I'm crap at those.  I can barely talk on the telephone.  

I need coping strategies to reduce my panic.  I'm wondering if there is something from CBT (Cognitive behavioural therapy) that might help.  

When I panic, my voice sounds even worse and flatter than it normally does.  

Dyslexia means I cannot read from a script.

I don't even know why I want to do this so bad, but I do.  I hate that I do.  And yet, I can't stop wanting.  

I learned this technique when studying acting for character animation and it was very helpful:

https://youtu.be/-IoFyr-PSNM

Maybe some aspects of it can aid you.

I finished the script I need to record.  I took out the words I cannot say and replaced them with something that is more naturally my speaking style.

I turn on the microphone, my throat goes funny and my mouth is too dry to speak.  

A classic physical reaction to stress.  

Ug!  

Maybe alcohol could help?  

r ranson wrote:Maybe alcohol could help?  

I taught foreign language for years, and they don't call alcohol a social lubricant for nothing!
On the other hand, if you're reading from a script alcohol might muddle the way you want to read it. But if you're willing, it can't hurt to try a practice run with a low dose. From having run conversation happy hours in bars, I can tell you that even a single drink is enough to get people talking...

But that same effect can be used as a placebo. Make yourself a calming tea and say to yourself, this is my preparation and will help me talk easily and calmly.

You also have audiences to practice on: gather your animals! (camera and all, you can just erase when you're done). Animals are excellent audiences: therapy animals for reading, for example. Plus they're silly enough to keep you from focusing entirely on panic. They will baa and honk and interrupt you, that's some comic relief.
If your mouth gets dry, have some of that magic tea around, take a sip, and keep going. After you've given your talk three times it will get easier.
The last time I had to give a lecture it was to a large auditorium, on the stage (I HATE stages), recorded, with some bigwigs in my field present. Once I had everything written I hired a teacher to watch me give the lecture a number of times. She occasionally corrected some of my mistakes (small detail, I wasn't fluent in this language yet), but mostly, it was just accountability for practicing. By the time the lecture actually rolled around I was a bit nervous, but I had done it 50 times already so it was okay.
So maybe make a commitment, tell someone about it, and ask them to be your accountability buddy: they ask if you've practiced with your camera today, and you have to do it.

R, you got this! Also, keep in mind everyone hates looking at/listening to themselves recorded. It's normal, and isn't because you're terrible to listen to or see (this is a good explanation: https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/15/health/voice-recording-wellness-partner/index.html ).

What worked for me may not be practical for you, and has considerable opportunity cost.

What I did was play a massively-multiplayer online role playing game (MMORPG) for six or seven years.   It was a space game and you couldn't really get far without flying with other players using voice coms (a headset) to coordinate.  My paralyzing fear of speaking into a microphone (so bad that I've always hated talking on the telephone) was easily forgotten in the excitement of enemy pilots trying to violence my own beautiful space-boats.  By the end of that experience I was routinely leading small fleets and issuing crisp clean space-boat orders calmly under pressure.  Somewhere during all that, my microphone phobia went out the airlock.

In current times, I've been playing an old-fashioned board game over zoom once a week with friends from thirty years ago.  I imagine this might have a similar effect/utility.  

One learns how to read by reading. One learns to drive by driving, and one learns public speaking by speaking in public. practice.

I grew up playing music in the Appalachians.  The advice I got from the old-timers was perfect:  Always remember, the audience is rooting for you.   THey want to be entertained, or they want to learn from you.  They want you to succeed and are on your side.  They don't notice most mistakes, and any big mistakes can be laughed off if you don't take yourself too seriously.   Have a good time together - the audience is part of your team.

I used to be the same, very shy and hated cameras. Even hated having my photo taken.
And then somewhere in high school we had a career week where people came to talk about their careers. And these was this journalist and I was instantly mesmerized by her. I knew what I wanted to do.
That did not cure my camera shyness though, not at first. I had finished college and I was still avoiding cameras. But at some point I got a really nice job offer as a professional fixer and video production assistant  and that changed my life. Not having to speak in front of cameras but being all the time around them gradually cured my of my shyness. So consider working around cameras without the pressure of knowing you have to be in front of them.

EXPOSURE THERAPY

pun intended

The entire thing, Ms Ranson, is know your subject well enough and know that you are committed to it becoming intimate knowledge to you and care deeply about getting your message across, out to others because what you are saying is important and needs to be heard.

Grand example - Not many people want to know or think they want to know about a topic you raised recently, growing your own plants to make your own materials, linen, ... . It intrigued me no end. The chance that I will ever do it is slim to none but the chance to hear about your knowledge, your passion, your doing something so magical [what was not so long ago just another chore, mundane task] made me want to research and learn more.

So just talk, admit and allow that you are not yet Mark Twain, nobody will care and lots, like me will devour your words. Stumbling for words that fail you is only thinking carefully about what to say. Let it be that!! Don't let it be - "oh shit, what was the duckin' question the teacher just asked me, i can't even remember what she said!! How long before she moves on to someone else!!"

As the Japanese say, "GANBATTE, kudasai!" [Fight, be powerful, please]

I recently read these wise words from a very wise woman, take them to heart and squeeze their life into you.

"And yet, I can't stop wanting."

I go through the same thing. There's three methods that always work that aren't really surprising.

1. Tried and true, have a couple adult beverages to loosen the 'ol pie hole.
2. Pretend you're talking to a friend.
3. Waste digital memory by practicing over and over and over again.

If you really pay attention, you'll start seeing a lot of cuts in videos because of take after take after take.

In the end, familiarity always works - like going on a first date and getting your tongue tied up.

My main problem with recording videos is actually editing them rather than the recording part. It can take hours to edit a video and post it online.

r ranson wrote:What's the cure for a fear of speaking in a microphone or being recorded on a camera?
I tried doing it more and desensitizing, but it just makes the fear worse.

Paul, buddy!

I believe there is, or at least I've gotten over it, myself. Here is what worked for me:

Public speaking

I was giving a presentation, for which I had prepared very well. I had pretty nearly memorized my talk - which was given with a PowerPoint, but the PowerPoint just had a few of the details - not the whole text.  Just as I started talking, I realized that the PowerPoint notes were not coming up. I was there, in the spotlight, in front of 100 people talking about Permaculture and my script had evaporated. All I had was the bare-bones hints on my PowerPoint. Adrenaline kicked in. There was no graceful way to back out and fix the problem. So I smiled my biggest smile and started with my opening anecdote.

I will never give a talk with a script again, only the bare-bones text on my PowerPoint slides or a rough outline with bullet points.

Hints for public speaking:
1. Smile, smile, smile!
2. Always start with an anecdote - preferably a relevant and interesting one. ;)
3. Don't take yourself too seriously.
4, Say nice things about other people.
5. Tell stories that fascinate you.
6. Realize that the audience really, really wants to like you.
7. And, of course, make sure what you are saying is accurate and interesting.

On-Camera speaking

The way I got beyond this fear (and it was a HUGE one) was by making 90 videos in 90 days and putting them all up on YouTube. The only way to do that is to let go of the ego. Many of the videos were just plain not very good, but some of the ones I didn't like actually caught on - and some of the ones I thought were pure genius just flopped. After awhile I had to buck up and deal with the fact that I'm a bit odd, I don't know exactly what's going to work, and people don't really mind any of it so long as I'm smiling. A friend clued me in. His exact words were "They just want to see that quirky Karl guy being himself." I was like "What, I'm quirky?" Like this was some kind of huge revelation. Once I internalized the fact that I wasn't all that cool, and this was actually OK (and maybe even a little endearing) I started liking myself more on camera.

As time went on, I developed better methods for making better videos - though they're still far from viral. I'm still working on it and would be happy to talk with you about the strategies I'm discovering using trial and error and a bit of data crunching.

Here are a few suggestions

1. Practice with a phone or camera that you can watch as you're recording. The sooner you get used to seeing yourself (and liking yourself) the sooner it will feel natural.
2. Speak quickly and clearly (you can use tools to speed up your videos if you find you're talking too slow)
3. Expect to leave hours of footage on the (metaphorical) cutting room floor for every 5 minute video

Again, drop me a line if you want more details.

Here's a link to one of my better recent videos: How to Make a DIY Rain Barrel
Please subscribe!!!

One thing that makes photos turn out bad is the visible effort to hide from them.  I used to dread public speaking, but now I actually teach wild edibles and edible insects to groups of all sizes.  Some are recorded.  I've even been a church deacon in several churches --public prayer at a mic' isn't fun the first few times.  I don't like the sound of my own voice, but I get asked back, so others might not share that opinion.  Love your topic and love sharing it.  I'm guessing an audience is easier than simply recording to a mic. ---I want to go on with this, but I don't know where I'm going.

This discussion make me think about he difference between my sister and myself.  My mother grew up with 2 older brothers that teased her relentlessly but she learned to ignore them and respond to her personality of being a people pleaser and took training as a preforming artist at a renowned school.  She decided to apply the method to me and teased me until I learned to accept the council or reject being made inferior.  My sister took up the practice of tensing me but with the purpose of making herself seem bigger by trying to make me feel smaller.   She retained the fear of others doing that to her but I had rejected that fear and therefore like my mother confidently spoke to please people and if they were not pleased that was their problem not mine.   Today, many decades later, I see and hear myself on Zoom recordings and not the flaws to be avoided if possible but also the grateful response of those listening and watching.   I am grateful to the high school training to project my voice by directing it mentally to the ear of the hearer.  With a recording I can not turn off the microphone like I did in high school but I speak in the direction of he microphone to reach the person on the other side.  I am satisfied when I listen to he recording if I can hear and understand what I said. That is the positive feedback I got in school and the groups I meet with virtually today.

My rather reclusive and shy best friend got up in front a large group of people in our permaculture group and gave a flawless presentation and speech on what she did to her farm. Most of these people we did not know, although we were slowly meeting and making new acquaintances.

I watched her in utter amazement, my jaw literally agap!

Afterwards I asked her how she learned to do this. She explained she joined a toastmasters group. And they had to give speeches on a myriad of topics. It was hard at first, but with lots of practice, and a lot of support, she learned how to speak in front of her group. She said everyone was in the same boat, they were all working toward same goal, and it worked!

I questioned her closely. No one new dropped out. She was a member of the group for several years until she remarried and moved away. If there is a group near you, I'd try it out, a least once.

You're making it harder than it really is. I was the son of a portrait photographer in the late 50s and hated the camera. I learned to ignore it. Simple to say, but it really is a matter of not paying attention to it. Just talk to your audience or yourself.

There's a great video that will help you rethink the way you think about yourself and people
It has incredible potential if practiced:

Burra Maluca wrote:Don't speak to the microphone.

Don't speak to the thousands of potential viewers.

Speak to the ONE person who you're trying to reach. 'See' them the other side of the camera. Make eye contact with them. Not some random person, one actual living, breathing, personal friend who really will watch your video and hear your words and respond to you.

Just don't use their name...

I agree with this.
Or ... Do you ever talk to yourself? I do, very often. So now when I make a video (I don't do that often, but I do have a youtube channel) I talk to myself, while it's recorded. OK, that doesn't sound clear. Probably the viewers will understand only half of what I say (and it's in Dutch, so you won't understand it at all). But I think this is a start, if I go on it will become better.

I don't know if this could help. Please, consider that I am not a professional and my advices might be wrong for your case. I can say some of this stuff worked for me.

SPEECHING

1. Understand that you can learn and master any skill. If you are good at them at the beginning then you will have a smoother start. If you aren't good at them, then the start is rougher but you can achieve the same. Sometimes we don't bother with skills we are not good at since they have an opportunity cost, but sometimes we need to learn the skills. Even deaf and mute people can speak, using signs if they have to. Dislexic people can't read long texts, but you only need some guiding words if you know the score.
2. Do you remember how you learned your current set of skills? Did you succeed from the beginning? No. It's always a process of try, fail, recognize what you did wrong and try again. And it is almost always a progressively difficulty task. If you are learning to cook, you don't start trying a lasagna, it's boiled eggs.
3. Now you want to learn the speech skill. You have some difficulties (shyness, dislexia) that make you start a bit more difficult, but you can do it. Speech is the art of communicating an idea, you need an audience to check how well your message is being understood. If you talk to a camera, you don't have this feedback. Pick some easy audience (wife, friends, tell them you need their help) and some easy topics, then practice speech with them Tell them you need to practice. Ask them to be honest and provide feedback. If you don't find people willing to help, maybe take a course.
4. If you want to really get good at it, then you need to read subtle reactions since many people aren't honest even when you ask them to be. This is a problem with all social interactions: people aren't honest because they all want to look like nice people. They usually don't want you to feel bad or they don't want to be portrayed as the annoying guy who goes criticising everyone else, so they won't tell what you did wrong. But if you look attentively at their bodies and faces, you will notice different expressions. Pay attention to them. At first you will not know what they mean, but keep noticing them and you'll find out eventually if you are not autistic.
5. Once you think you have learned enough from your easier audience, increase the difficulty and try speaking to a larger audience, maybe two or three friends together. Keep increasing difficulty in small steps until you think you can handle harder tasks. When talking to different people, you will notice that some reactions are common no matter who the audience is. Other reactions depend on the background of the people you talk to.
6. Talking to a camera or a recorder you don't have the immediate feedback of your audience, but if you have practiced it before you can remember how it usually goes. Here is when the advice of 'imagine that you are talking to (...)" works. If the recording is for kids, then you have to imagine that you are talking to a kid and remember how kids react to your speech. You don't get the feedback, but you imagine that you are getting it so you don't block yourself.

SHYNESS

You mentioned you are a shy person, so maybe it's a good idea to work a little bit on this aspect.
Shyness comes from lack of confidence, it's a fear that you will fail and people will not accept you. Being rejected from society is a real threat, but shy people overdo it. Some people don't care about what others think or are only slightly worried and they can ignore the fact that they are exposing themselves to the others when speaking or recording their words. Shy people can't ignore this. I can't order you to stop thinking about it, you can't stop thinking about the blue elephant if I mention it to you.
So I think the best strategy in this case is to build up self-confidence and view yourself in a more balanced way. Drinking alcohol is a cheap and fast, but risky, way of building confidence. Specific therapy could work in the long term without relying to drugs.

I'll start doing some introspection. Relax for 5-10 minutes or do some meditation to get in the mood. You need to meditate on your answers for some personal questions. By this I mean to try to find facts and reasons to prove that your answer is wrong, find alternative answers and try to prove them wrong too, until you find one that has little to object. So make yourself some of these questions without rushing the answer, meditate on them properly, take your time, 30-60 minutes, one line per session, things like:
- 5 things I dislike about my personality: Have they some redeeming qualities? Do I want to change them? What can I do to change them?
- When I see this bad characteristics in another person, would they make me to not accept this person? How many people will accept me if they knew this facets of me? Are they things to be ashamed or is it just me who dislike it? Are they common defaults or are they exclusively mine?
- 5 things I like about my personality. Are they to be admired or is it just me who likes them? Are they common traits? Do I want to let people know of my virtues? Why?
- Do I need to be accepted by people? None at all, only some people, everyone? Why? Examine your answer.

You can figure yourself out more questions of the like. Or you can try different questions from the beginning if you feel so. Don't be mistaken, this is hard work. After every session, let it sink for the rest of the day and a sleep, before trying the next line of questions. This introspective work that may take a few days or weeks is just so you know yourself a little better. To walk from point A to B you need to know where point A is. Once you have a solid ground and have acknowledged whether your shyness is excessive and it is hurting you, you can proceed to treat it. I think there are two topics to work on: self-confidence and caring about opinion of others. You are probably overweighting the bad aspects which make you to not trust in your social abilities or the consequences of not being accepted, but that's because you are focusing too much on this aspects of your reality.

There's a technique called active awareness where you dedicate a few minutes every day to find for specific things around you and meditate on the process. For example, you can one day for several minutes look for things with a soft surface, another day you can look for things with a triangle shape, another day you can look for things that make noise. When you get the hang of it, you can project this skill to be aware of some characteristics of your personality that you were underevaluating. For example, let's say that you think of yourself to be very egotistic. Then, for one or several days, you try to be aware of everything you do that is not egotistic. You don't have to force these actions, only to be aware when you naturally do them. You will realize that you are not so (insert default here) as you initially thought. There's a saying, 'you become what you observe', so by not focusing on your bad aspects you are influencing yourself to be more balanced.

But it could be that even with a more realistic vision of yourself, you still want to do things for changing. Here you could challenge yourself, set some doable goals, and track your success. That's the same when you want to lose weight. Commit yourself to not eat (insert unhealthy stuff here) on working days for at least three weeks. Three weeks is the time we need to stablish new habits. If it works, set a new harder challenge, If it doesn't, set an easier goal. You need to get in the mood of achieving your goals so you can be positive about doing them.
I don't know how hard is your shyness, but a very simple goal could be to just say hello to one stranger every day. Or talking about your feelings with some friend (it's polite to hear their feelings in response). Maybe say to your family that you love them.

I used to have a really hard time talking to groups of people myself. When I joined the Army it didn't get much better. but when I became an E5 Sergeant, it really wasn't an option anymore. I started by kind of telling jokes about myself. I got myself used to people laughing at my on my own terms.  It also helped me be mentally prepared to flip a mistake in my favor. Failure is our best teacher after all, if nothing else it teaches you how to take a sucker-punch.

I was a teacher for 26 years, so I can tell you this: I've seen your posts and you have a lot more to contribute to a conversation than most. My simple trick was prepare, prepare, prepare. When you speak, in front of a camera or in front of an audience, just lose yourself in the material. Think of nothing but what you have to say. Paramount are the facts you are presenting. The audience is really secondary.
I learned that way to be always well prepared and polish my material: On the days when I was not well prepared, I had a miserable time: I felt uncomfortable, I feared the students would see that I didn't "have it" that day, and indeed, they did.
Now, children are a slightly different situation: they do not know the material you are offering and if you do it right, most are willing to learn. A few are not there to learn, and they can give you a bad time.
Adults represent a different challenge, especially in a sphere like Permies: They *love* the material you have to offer and they know about a lot of it themselves. That, and their age makes them more respectful than children.
This is one of the reasons I cherish Permies so much: You are allowed to write and present your whatever knowledge you have without fear. Even when people feel that you may be "missing a piece", they will give you the information without trying to make you feel small or ridicule you: They will try to add to your knowledge, not try to diminish you.
When we misbehaved as a child in school, I remember being sent to room 101. There was an old codger nicknamed "Bouboule" with a shiny dome who always did his best to make you feel miserable. He would get in your face, scream at the slightest whisper or infraction... You get the idea. One day, he was particularly irritable and got to within inches of my face. His face turned bright red, veins sticking out in his neck and his temples. His round face and piggish little eyes suddenly made me think that this was exactly what he looked like when he was constipated and trying to pass a big one. My eyes glazed over and I could no longer hear him as I "set him aside", just relishing in the thought that he was constipated and this is why his face looked so funny. I began chuckling, then laughing out loud and the whole room joined in.
By mentally "setting him aside" I had lost all fear of this awful man. The best I can describe it is I was "in the zone" and out of his reach. You too can place yourself mentally "in the zone" with your material.
You will learn in time to "set aside" the microphone, the audience and the camera. Just prepare and be one with the material. I'm pulling for you. I'm sure we all are.

I’ve heard really good things about toast masters. I had trouble with public speaking and a teacher told about them and swore it was the best cure. Of course I procrastinated and never joined and eventually got over it as I got older.

Some tricks to improve sound of voice

As a matter of fact, this is a make or break, for me. Just last night, I turned off two separate videos on a topic I am very motivated to learn, because the vlogger's voices are horribly annoying, to me. I couldn't hear what they were saying, because of how they were saying it.