PEP Badge: Gardening

It can be on a slope.  Per the requirements, the uphill height plus the downhill height still have to average 7'.  It might create a frost pocket unless that trough has somewhere for the cold air to drain away.  If you're in a cold area.....

Nikki Roche wrote:Does a hugelkulture have to be completely freestanding, or can it abut a hill on one side?

From the Build a Hugelkulture BB, “if you are building on a slope, measure the height from both sides and the average needs to be 7' or higher.”

Sounds like you want it to be parallel to the hill so it would need to average 7’ so something like 4’ on the uphill side and 10’ on the downhill side would work.

Opalyn Rose wrote:

Nikki Roche wrote:Does a hugelkulture have to be completely freestanding, or can it abut a hill on one side?

From the Build a Hugelkulture BB, “if you are building on a slope, measure the height from both sides and the average needs to be 7' or higher.”

Sounds like you want it to be parallel to the hill so it would need to average 7’ so something like 4’ on the uphill side and 10’ on the downhill side would work.

Mike Haasl wrote:It can be on a slope.  Per the requirements, the uphill height plus the downhill height still have to average 7'.  It might create a frost pocket unless that trough has somewhere for the cold air to drain away.  If you're in a cold area.....

Thanks, makes sense!
I'm hoping to intentionally create a frost pocket. Many things have been sprouting too soon the last couple of years and dying back in the last spring frost, so I'd like to experiment with ways to delay blooming during the warm spells of late winter.

Nikki Roche wrote:I'm hoping to intentionally create a frost pocket. Many things have been sprouting too soon the last couple of years and dying back in the last spring frost, so I'd like to experiment with ways to delay blooming during the warm spells of late winter.

The only time I’ve heard of deliberately trying to create a frost pocket is for ice collection for an ice house. Is this a practice I’m unaware of? It makes me a little uneasy, but then I don’t have the full story. If there’s a frost pocket throughout the whole winter wouldn’t it draw a lot of heat out of the hugel? Those early bloomers help the bees. Many over winter and need to feed once they emerge. If there’s a warm spell early in the season and flowers bloom, then there will be hungry bees. What if you planted the sunny side of the mound with hardy early bloomers instead?

Edward, I have read quite a lot about the use of frost pockets in relation to gardening.

I can't explain it exactly though I feel it has something to do with using cooler air in the summer.

Here are some threads that might help:

https://permies.com/t/26226/Food-Savana-Frost-Pocket

https://permies.com/t/123397/Creating-seasonal-frost-pockets

Mike said, "A frost pocket would be a good place to put a root cellar.  Or a place to sit on a hot day if those characteristics that make it hold frost also make it hold the coolest air in summertime.

https://permies.com/t/138713/frost-pockets-thought-experiment#1087741

Thank you Anne! Time for some more self education.

Hi there Badge ADMIN....

Question:
I have completed a hugelkulture bed 7 x 6 (up down average).

Beside the bed,WHAT IS THE DIP in the ground for?
Is that necessary? Whats its value? if it is part of your badge requirement?
Or it is merely someones version but not necessary

Joyce.

The dip is just one way to build it if you want to do it that way. It does tend to hold water. It's not necessary for the BB though.

I'm ready to apply for my Gardening Sand Badge:

Build a Hugelkultur: https://permies.com/wiki/100/98574/Build-Hugelkultur-PEP-BB-gardening#1370427
Chop and drop: https://permies.com/p/1285910
Ruth Stout style composting: https://permies.com/wiki/60/98577/Ruth-Stout-style-composting-spots#1370381

paul wheaton wrote:what have i left out?

How about getting more specific with BBs for planting different kinds of vegetables, fruits, grains, flowers, herbs, etc?
That'd also make it easier for beginners to get started with farming/gardening.

Similar to the natural medicine badge, we could have BBs for planting a certain amount of vegetables, or harvesting it, with or without a list of vegetables to choose from.

I've earned enough BBs for a sand badge in gardening!

https://permies.com/wiki/90/98574/Build-Hugelkultur-PEP-BB-gardening#1289063
https://permies.com/wiki/50/98577/Ruth-Stout-style-composting-spots#1291509
https://permies.com/wiki/50/98575/Chop-Drop-PEP-BB-gardening#1407339

Just wondering: are there any plans to update this badge with more bits, so that there are more routes to a sand badge, with more gardening skills developed?
looking at the other badges, it seems like the sand badge gets you the basic skills you need to advance to the next badge. As in, once you have completed a woodworking badge, you know how to hold a knife, and do the basic skills to do the bigger projects.
With this one, completing the sand badge does not give you what I would call gardening skills. The three BBs are cool, but none of them teach you how and when to plant, how and when to nurture, how and when to harvest.
I feel like to be in line with the rest of the program, the sand badge might benefit from developing some of these foundational skills. Something along the lines of planting and harvesting specific crops, so that at the end, you would know what a pea plant looks like, and would have gotten something to actually grow.
Just thinking about it because I had put my name on the list of people who could have some pep badges done on their land, and was contacted by someone interested in doing some pep work. I was going over which BBs made sense in my context, and was surprised by how few BBs there actually were in this one. It felt out of step with the spirit of the other sand badges.

I'm not aware of any plans to change any gardening BB's. Would be surprised if that happens. They were some of the first finished & a lot of thought went into them.

Have you seen this particular BB?  That level gives someone plenty of opportunity to grow & harvest all sorts of things. The sand level is more about developing a place to grow & how to build soil. The sand level hugel does require a large percentage of nitrogen fixers to be planted so peas would work for that.

Lina Joana wrote:Just wondering: are there any plans to update this badge with more bits, so that there are more routes to a sand badge, with more gardening skills developed?   ...

Hi Lina,
Since Paul and Mike just published the SkIP Book, I doubt there are plans for significant changes.  This is also PEP (Permaculture Experiences according to PAUL) and he invites people to make their own program that works better for their region.  Also you can check out the PEA program to see if that works better for your region.

Ok, fair enough! No skin off my nose.
Mike, I did see the 100,000 calories badge. It just seemed like a leap without some kind of previous growing bb. Unless I am misunderstanding the hugel bb, all that is required is that you sow the seeds, and stick some tubers/ roots in the ground. No requirement that they sprout, or that you identify what grows.
Opalyn, I hadn’t seen the PEA, but since I am developing 5 acres, it isn’t really relevant to PEPers who would want to earn their badges on my land. My comment was less about regional differences and more that the gardening sand badge seems to build so few skills compared to the other subject sand badges. But like I said, it’s not a big deal to me, just thought I would check.

all that is required is that you sow the seeds, and stick some tubers/ roots in the ground. No requirement that they sprout, or that you identify what grows.

That is correct. There's no reason someone could not learn to identify the plants & learn from the experience though.

I'm kinda struggling here.  I live in the suburbs but my plot is big enough to have a good size garden.  I have 8 raised garden beds and I want to work on the gardening badge but it is impossible for me to do the hugelkultur, one of any size.  I have done the compost and the chop and drop but I feel like I'm blocked because of the above mentioned issue.  I save my own seeds and and encourage wild plants in my gardens, etc but a lot of the tasks needed for the badges I just cant do in the suburbs.  Should I just focus on the PEA and will I be eligible for SKIP if I do that?  

I suggest doing all the PEP & PEA that you can even if there are some bits you can't do for some reason.  There is no requirement that someone has to have X amount of badges or any specific badges for an Otis to find them & like their work enough to make contact. The more you have in either category will be to your benefit.

William Schlegel wrote:

"all of this is completed without imports (except seeds) from more than 500 feet away" Here is a quote from the second badge level. To do the second badge level with this requirement on my current property I would need to plant some poplars where I plan to do a future Hugel and wait! Or do it somewhere else.

More "outside inputs" questions. Say I buy a pepper, the store much less the farm is way>greater than>500 feet so it's an outside input no question. It goes fugly in my fridge as I'm in the middle of straw or higher hugel and I toss it in my hugel to compost, was it still an illegal outside input even though hugel is< less than < 500 ft from fridge? Or further if I feed junk mail into my rhm is the ash still an illegal outside input ? Basically if it's a waist stream product modified from outside inputs on your property is it local enough to change it's outside input status?

Aurora House wrote:

William Schlegel wrote:

"all of this is completed without imports (except seeds) from more than 500 feet away" Here is a quote from the second badge level. To do the second badge level with this requirement on my current property I would need to plant some poplars where I plan to do a future Hugel and wait! Or do it somewhere else.

More "outside inputs" questions. Say I buy a pepper, the store much less the farm is way>greater than>500 feet so it's an outside input no question. It goes fugly in my fridge as I'm in the middle of straw or higher hugel and I toss it in my hugel to compost, was it still an illegal outside input even though hugel is< less than < 500 ft from fridge? Or further if I feed junk mail into my rhm is the ash still an illegal outside input ? Basically if it's a waist stream product modified from outside inputs on your property is it local enough to change it's outside input status?

Being part of the waste stream does not change it's source as an external input. So no, it does not change its status.

The intent is to create locally sustainable systems in Paul's vision (as this is Permaculture Experience according to Paul). He strongly advocates using locally sourced materials from the permaculture site and reflects this in the requirements for PEP badges. It is not always easy or even possible to do all the badge bits in all locations. I myself find quite a few I just can't complete here. The pay off is that when you accomplish them to Paul's standards you get something considerably more than just a shiny badge on the forum, you get the skill and resultant system or artifact.

Saving/growing the seeds from the pepper would be fine.  The other stuff is probably not ok.  

It can even be better to NOT be able to get the BB when you live in a totally different region than Montana USA. Permaculture is about doing things in the way that fits the specific site. When your site is very different from Wheaton Labs, maybe (probably?) it isn't right to do things 'according to Paul' ...

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:When your site is very different from Wheaton Labs, maybe (probably?) it isn't right to do things 'according to Paul' ...

Yes, woodland care has plant 100 cleavers here is a picture of my gloves after I cleared the cleaver already growing here this summer. I would still like to know what landscape niche Paul wants them for to try and come up with a PEX alternative.
Edit: I just got an email saying that gardening has been updated. What changed?

Update:  All the requests for badges have been moved to individual threads.  Please request your badges by clicking on the badge headers in the top post and following those links.  Thanks!

Is there a specific place on every badge where it says exactly how many of the BBs are necessary to earn the badge?

Finn Torrey wrote:Is there a specific place on every badge where it says exactly how many of the BBs are necessary to earn the badge?

Scroll up and click on the forum name. When that loads, at the top, there’s a hard link to the thread that explains the requirements for the gardening badges.

You can use the same process to figure out all the categories.

Hi Finn. Welcome to permies. Scroll to the bottom of this thread to find the specific requirements for each badge.

I don't want to offend anyone here, but I suggest you do a quick conversion from imperial units to metric units for the requirements of all badgets and add that to the requirement description to internationalize the SKIP system.
I know it originally was intended for the US and I know you guys love your imperial units, but I do see that SKIP and connecting Otis to aspiring homesteaders is something really relevant all over the world. Noone wants that big monoculture farming takes over all those lovingly cared-for homesteads!
I'm in for world domination!

https://permies.com/wiki/130/98574/Build-Hugelkultur-PEP-BB-gardening#2623547

https://permies.com/wiki/102/98577/Ruth-Stout-style-composting-spots#2665612

https://permies.com/wiki/80/98575/Chop-Drop-PEP-BB-gardening#2296153

Laura Quick wrote:https://permies.com/wiki/130/98574/Build-Hugelkultur-PEP-BB-gardening#2623547

https://permies.com/wiki/102/98577/Ruth-Stout-style-composting-spots#2665612

https://permies.com/wiki/80/98575/Chop-Drop-PEP-BB-gardening#2296153

Hi Laura, to get approved for a Sand badge, go to the top post in the badge and click on the Sand badge header like this: