be paul's virtual assistant (VA)

Processing now ...   63 responses!

It would seem that there are several people willing to work for free.  And there are a few putting in numbers much lower than minimum wage.  

Not everybody answered correctly with the question that was testing to see if you really knew about me!  

Lots of fun answers.  

This is gonna take a while to narrow it down from 63 to say ... 4.

for those of you with hotmail

https://permies.com/t/154250/good-email-service

I have narrowed the list down to 10.  And I am going to permies and looking up people.  Hmmm ...   184 posts ....   42 posts ....    

One has zero posts  - so now down to 9 ....

(I gotta narrow things down based on something!)

paul wheaton wrote:I have narrowed the list down to 10.  And I am going to permies and looking up people.  Hmmm ...   184 posts ....   42 posts ....    

One has zero posts  - so now down to 9 ....

(I gotta narrow things down based on something!)

Or you could email those 9-10 and strike up a conversation! I would not rule anyone out based on post volume. Could just mean they have a full time job plus a homestead to manage! And they’ve found all the answers to their questions in your immensely informative hive mind here.  Speaking for myself...I would happily trade my full time job for a chance to be more active in this community!

Chris Takacs wrote:I would not rule anyone out based on post volume.

I'm pretty sure that being an active member of the community was picked as a requirement because helping manage the community is part of the job description.

Watching the learning curve of Paul's VAs, having a good understanding of how permies works is a big bonus.  

Permies is a big part of moving permaculture forward and providing a safe place for people to find out what permaculture is without preaching to them.  They come here, they see this neat project, they want to make one, they learn more about it, they ask questions, then they see another neat thing, and oh look book giveaways, and wow, look at that book review grid and suddenly I've been here how many years now and I even use the word permaculture in casual conversation.

Having a solid understanding of how permies works (link in my signature) and understanding a bunch of why things happen this way (reading the threads about publishing standards), is the best way to hit the ground running.  

Permies manages itself via the volunteers for the most part, but the VA becomes a special sort of person that works with us and with paul and has the goal of making pauls goals reality... and other things.  It's a neat job.  But I don't think it fits in a 'normal' box.  

r ranson wrote:Watching the learning curve of Paul's VAs, having a good understanding of how permies works is a big bonus.  

Permies is a big part of moving permaculture forward and providing a safe place for people to find out what permaculture is without preaching to them.  They come here, they see this neat project, they want to make one, they learn more about it, they ask questions, then they see another neat thing, and oh look book giveaways, and wow, look at that book review grid and suddenly I've been here how many years now and I even use the word permaculture in casual conversation.

Having a solid understanding of how permies works (link in my signature) and understanding a bunch of why things happen this way (reading the threads about publishing standards), is the best way to hit the ground running.  

Permies manages itself via the volunteers for the most part, but the VA becomes a special sort of person that works with us and with paul and has the goal of making pauls goals reality... and other things.  It's a neat job.  But I don't think it fits in a 'normal' box.  

↑All of this!↑

I was extremely grateful for how much I already knew permies before I took the job as Paul's VA. There's a LOT to learn as his assistant, and it would have been a lot more if I hadn't already been really familiar with permies, the sorts of things Paul's involved in (more than just permies!), and Paul's personality/priorities. It helped a ton! I was also able to step into more complicated tasks more quickly because I already understood so much. I think that was helpful for him.

I think someone could be a fantastic assistant to him who hasn't been an active poster or familiar with permies--I think Cassie was pretty new to permaculture & Paul, and I think she did a fantastic job and was a huge inspiration to me. But, I also think that someone new to permies might require a lot more training time, and Paul's a busy guy. It doesn't surprise me that, when he's trying to narrow down his options, he might weigh in how active they are on permies as a kind of indicator of how familiar they are with permies.

Note: I didn't moderate the forums/manage the community as part of my paid position. That was all volunteer (I had a fun balancing act of my volunteer stuff and my paid stuff...and I think continuing to volunteer gave me staying power and kept my love for permies strong!). But, I did answer emails, help people with sign-up issues, answer questions about the digital market here on permies, test new programming, figure out glitches, write some dailyishes, work with the volunteers, make pretty threads, work with the innards of the forum software, and a lot more stuff here on permies. Having a good familiarity with permies is a big advantage when being an assistant!

I'm thinking that the correct answer to this question on the form:

If you're coming to my house for dinner and you are tasked with bringing desert, what are you bringing?

is: "A bowl of sand. I'd prefer to bring pie, but hey, it's your party!"

Something I really enjoy is when the VA goes on a meme making spree.  

And this is the kind of situation where someone (usually me) would say "Isn't there's a thread around here somewhere about that."

and then the VA would pop into the conversation with a link.

That's another big thing about learning how to be a VA - many of the things you need to know are already written down on permies.  The faster the VA can get on friendly terms with the permies search engine, the faster they get up to speed.

Learning to be a volunteer here, I would often write out emails to people (or even Paul) asking questions, but before pressing Send, I would stop and say "I wonder if that info is already available" so I did a search and most of the time it was.  I don't need to send the email.

Most of the time it was as clear as mud.  But it was enough to work from and I pressed buttons until I got the desired results or I found a glitch.  

And that brings us to how moderation on a forum like this is a lot like permaculture.  It all depends on the situation.  Permaculture (and moderation) are about gathering tools we can use and knowing when not to use them.  Take mulch for example.  Awesome in most places in the world - but use it here without an irrigation system and you've killed your plants through drowning or by blocking the dew from getting to the soil at night.  

paul wheaton wrote:I have narrowed the list down to 10.  And I am going to permies and looking up people.  Hmmm ...   184 posts ....   42 posts ....    

One has zero posts  - so now down to 9 ....

(I gotta narrow things down based on something!)

Whoops, the email address on my application may not be the same one I use for this site. The application automatically filled in the gmail that I use for business stuff, and I don't remember if I left it. I use a yahoo address for interesting things like permies.

Chris Takacs wrote:Or you could email those 9-10 and strike up a conversation!

I could arrange to have a bit of an hour long visit with all 63 and thus narrow it down to 40.  And then do 12 more rounds and on and on and on.  

But the trick is that this week has already been a bit overloaded.  I try to work only 8 hours on sunday, and I think went way over 12 instead.  And at the rate I'm going, it could be a couple more weeks until I give somebody a try.  

So, yes, it is true that I could have a bit more patience and find that excellent, perfect assistant.  And the throwing darts thing is a bit faster, and it might actually find a better assistant.  

I cannot bring myself to do the throwing darts thing.  So I am making the best of it.   And I very much like the idea that in a month or two, the assistant I choose will try a couple more and so on and so on and so on and ...  in time ...  world domination!


For now, I have narrowed it down to 7.

N Stephanson wrote:

Chris Takacs wrote:I would not rule anyone out based on post volume.

I'm pretty sure that being an active member of the community was picked as a requirement because helping manage the community is part of the job description.

I think it helps to have some familiarity with the community.  The VA will be working with the permies.com staff.

Now narrowed down to six.  

I have asked the permies.com staff to see if they can narrow it down even more.  

Dc Stewart wrote:I'm thinking that the correct answer to this question on the form:

If you're coming to my house for dinner and you are tasked with bringing desert, what are you bringing?

is: "A bowl of sand. I'd prefer to bring pie, but hey, it's your party!"

The typo was all mine.  And when there were answers coming in pointing out the typo, i thought it was smarter to leave the typo there.   About 1 in 4 spotted it!  Excellent catch!

To all of my past VAs, and to all of the permies.com staff:   suppose we are going to hire three new VAs in one month.   What would be the criteria for selecting a new VA?  After all, the questionnaire is still up and running.  People could reapply.  We could even make a better questionnaire.  

I think a good post count helps.  A few apples.  Having listened to some podcasts (a lot of people said they have a pretty good idea of what I am like from podcasts or specific videos about me).  

What are some tasks a person could do that helps out, and sets them above the others?

My first thought is making some audio ads for the podcasts.

Maybe completing the scavenger hunt?

Maybe doing something that brings coin to the empire.  The affiliate programs or something.

Helping with the green dot?

Nikki Roche wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:I have narrowed the list down to 10.  And I am going to permies and looking up people.  Hmmm ...   184 posts ....   42 posts ....    

One has zero posts  - so now down to 9 ....

(I gotta narrow things down based on something!)

Whoops, the email address on my application may not be the same one I use for this site. The application automatically filled in the gmail that I use for business stuff, and I don't remember if I left it. I use a yahoo address for interesting things like permies.

You could fill out the questionnaire again if you like.  Too late for this round, but I am hopeful to bring in a few more assistants in a month or two.

Dc Stewart wrote:I'm thinking that the correct answer to this question on the form:

If you're coming to my house for dinner and you are tasked with bringing desert, what are you bringing?

is: "A bowl of sand. I'd prefer to bring pie, but hey, it's your party!"

Haha! I think they have plenty of sand from Arrakis! It would have low “food” miles for sure.

paul wheaton wrote:What are some tasks a person could do that helps out, and sets them above the others?

If they have pollinator status, writing some daily-ish (there is a thread in the secret forum) would be good practice and helpful!

Some threads to read (good even if you don't get the job as there are some income opportunities here too.)
https://permies.com/t/165512/improve-Permies-Book-Review-Grid
sell stuff on the digital market https://permies.com/t/64443
digital market affiliate programme https://permies.com/wiki/85130/Affiliate-Payout-Details
get kickback links whenever paul has a kickstarter (not sure where the link to this would be)
https://permies.com/wiki/114138/permaculture-projects/special-BRK-permaculture-bootcamp

Finding ways to make the PIE programme work better and thus have permies break even instead of Paul paying the entire server bill.  What's pie?  This is pie? https://permies.com/wiki/pie
(hint, if normal worked, it would be perfect by now, this needs a bunch of creative thinking and the willingness to put the work into making it reality)

Helping with PEP and PEA - even just doing badges as a way of increasing momentum is awesome.  


Top secret insight into how Paul's brain works.

why vs why https://permies.com/t/140142
trying to get this to work out https://permies.com/t/153409/work
forum goals https://permies.com/t/15338/forum-goals-mission

And this one: https://permies.com/t/3069/toxin-ectomy/Wheaton-Eco-Scale
Trying to get level 8 thinking to transform into something that can help level 0 and 1 to move slightly up the scale.  

And lots to read here https://permies.com/f/244/wheaton

Disappointed that I'm likely out of the running at this point, but I suppose that's what I get for being a decade-long lurker. Gives me the kick in the ass to actually post for the PEP badges I've been regularly completing but never documenting lol!

I'm very curious about the affiliate program... I think a lot can be raked in that way. I'll have to see if I can bring in some eyes that way! (While I post similarly infrequently in my local homesteading groups, I'm always recommending/quoting/namedropping Permies and Paul, so why not bring in some $$$)

I hope you find a great assistant, Paul! And I hope an opportunity like this opens up again soon, because I'd love to be part of the team some day.

I can imagine Paul hiring again in the future.  He needs more than one VA, but training more than one at a time is daunting.  

Learning the affiliate program or doing PEP badges would be a great way to rack up experience and to show you are racking up experience.  It's that extra mile that goes a long way.

And the affiliate program is designed to be quite profitable for anyone who puts the effort in.

I narrowed the list down to seven people.  

I eliminated anybody with a hotmail email address, because hotmail (and msn and other microsoft evil companies) reject all of my emails.  I need to be able to email my assistant.  Frankly, I'm surprised anybody uses homail or msn anymore.

I next selected based on how well do people know me.  I think Liv has a good point that it might not work out if somebody doesn't know what my values are, or what I am like.  Two of the questions were about expressing how well people know me.

Then there was cost.  Some people live in a very expensive place, so they can only pull this off if they are getting paid double or triple what other people are asking for.  About a third of the applicants needed much more money than the rest.   I do think it is possible that somebody could get paid three times more, and do ten times more for the empire.  But it is also possible that another person can do that ten times more thing while reducing my financial risk in the beginning.  I think I am very generous at giving raises when my assistant brings in heaps of coin.  

Next, I selected by the ability to do this full time.  It will take a full time person to bring in three more assistants.  

Of the few that were left, there were a couple that had no matching permies.com account.  So I couldn't look up to see their posts so far.  

I handed seven people over to the permies.com staff.   The staff narrowed it down to three.   And the Liv said she wanted to take the last three and give them a special project.  I read an email from Liv that said that she emailed all three.  

I think that if there was one person that was bringing in $1000 per month with the affiliate program that applied to be my assistant, then i think that person would have gotten the job in an instant.

Another thing to point out:  the position is always offered to existing permies.com staff first.  

paul wheaton wrote:And the Liv said she wanted to take the last three and give them a special project.  I read an email from Liv that said that she emailed all three.  

Keeping in mind that I don't have direct say on the final choice, I've been enjoying watching the special project.  I hope he does this again if he needs more VAs so I'm going to post this for future applicants.  

From working with Paul, I can see the biggest skill he needs in a VA is the willingness to 'figure it out'.  Sometimes this means asking questions.  More often it means pressing buttons until the thing breaks or gives the desired results.  

We can see what a huge advantage being already familiar with permies gives to the applicants.  

The test Liv choose is also an excellent insight into what to expect with the learning curve.  Given a task with minimal guidance.  But there are often resources already available (being good at using search is a really awesome skill) and people willing to help.  And if there aren't resources, quite often part of the job is making some tutorials.  

It's also important to remember that it won't be perfect the first time.  That's part of why Paul says it needs at least 6 months to get up to speed.  

Another aspect is we know that each of the applicants are dealing with a whole bunch of real-life stuff and don't have dedicated time like they would when this is their real job.  Real-life will always assert itself when working virtually, so it's good to see how the candidates deal with this pressure.  

I just cruised through the survey.  Mega late to the party, I know.  It can hang out there in the que until there are other VA needs.  I'm always keen for a chance to learn more permaculture through osmosis, and it's hard to think of a better avenue for such an endeavor.

There are now 66 people in the running.

I started one person last week.  I hope that in a month or two we can add two more.

I handed the list of seven over to the permies.com staff who narrowed the list down to three.  They were the three people with the most posts on permies - there was a lot more to their decision, but I think post count was the biggest factor.  

The remaining three were given a private forum for each of them and were all three given the exact same task.  My current assistant, Liv, made the final choice.  

Paul Sofranko started last week.  Liv, Nicole and the rest of the permies.com staff are trying to bring him up to speed.

More news in a few weeks!  Until then, get those post counts up!

Preferably useful posts...

FYI this thread was why I started posting in the forums. I've been a lurker for a few years, and my permies account was made unknowingly when I purchased the Podcast Gob earlier this year. This position sounds like a great way for someone to subsidize their homesteading while contributing to the wider permaculture community. I'm currently in an urban setting with plenty of job opportunities, but if I ever find myself in a rural locale in a few years, perhaps I'll have enough apple cred to be considered (if you're still looking by then, of course. Always good to "dig the well before you're thirsty," as they say).

The Great VA Expirement of 2022 is nearing the halfway mark.  4 brave souls have attempted the accent up the 6-month on-ramp.

Things have been tried. Mistakes have been made. Comedy has ensued.

Nobody has been physically harmed in this performance.

And yet, we are down to 3.

Has permaculture been advanced?  How many 0's and 1's on the Wheaton Eco Scale have turned into 100's and 101's?  Perhaps our articulation of 1000-level thinking needs some re-coding.  

Will this operation get outta the red?  Will Paul's VA organism become a self-sustaining, perennial ecosystem?  

And, more to the point - are any original questionnaire-filler-outers still out there, like wall-flowers at the couple-skate, waiting for your chance to give it a go?  If so, how are those post-counts coming?  Any new and lovely threads or digital market items to show off?  

Any newcomers out there wanna add your answers to the pile of questionnaire responses?  I filled out the questionnaire weeks after the original VA hunt came to a close, and here I am, so it's never too late.

I seek to bring this thread back to our collective attention, to blow upon the cooling embers and see what sparks. To invite new spring growth in this endeavor.  

Will you join me?

One year later, some thoughts and observations

(remember, I'm 100% volunteer - not a VA - so I'm only seeing things from the volunteer side)

It takes one heck of a lot of time to train a VA to permies culture.  We can generally skip this if the person has posted to permies a lot.  We can see what areas they need help learning and where they already 'get' us.  This saves a lot of frustration on both sides.   So I can see why Paul prefers to hire people who have a history of posting on permies.  

The volunteers do an incredible amount of work on permies.  On top of that, there are so many active volunteers.  It's overwhelming when someone first sees the chaos behind the scenes.  Our tracker of 'active staff' - aka, staff that are actively doing stuff on permies daily - only goes up to about 40.  I suspect there are another 50 or so that are intermittently active and maybe pop in once a week, once a month, or maybe just a few times a year, to help out.  For most of us, the knowledge that we are making the world a better place by helping build a community where the chaos of the internet is kept in check is enough.  But also, we are incredibly proud of what we help build and how the moderation works here.  

A big learning curve in becoming a VA is understanding what the volunteers do and what they - due to being volunteers - don't like doing.  It's very easy to step on volunteer toes in the excitement to do what paul needs doing.  Some tasks, the only thing that is involved is to say to the volunteers "hey, how's it going?  Do you need any help?" and they will usually say "nope, I got this"  or "yes, I don't know what direction to go with this".  But other tasks, we just don't like doing and for these, we need more help from the VAs.  

Being able to prioritize tasks is also a huge thing for becoming a VA.  And the reason why I don't want the job.  There is so much to do and it all looks so urgent.  

In my mind, I separate the running of permies from the greater Empire tasks.  Permies is a small part of Paul's empire (in my mind, the most important part, but I'm biased) and only a part of his plans for infecting brains with permaculture.  Permies runs pretty well on volunteer power.  I imagine that the goal of the VAs is to help infect brains and to bring in income so that bigger and more influential projects can happen.  More Empire tasks but knowing how to use permies tools to make these easier.  

From the little I've seen, the current batch of VAs are lovely.  There are some advantages of having a team so they can learn from each other and different people have different superpowers to make things happen.  I'm mostly just writing this because I'm procrastinating doing my own tasks and wanted to get this down while it was near the surface of my mind.  

Are you still looking?  I can help with:
- helping people who ask incomplete questions
- fill out long, boring forms
- try to figure out a path to get things to work out
- help with the kickstarters
I can help with copy editing on Kickstarters, too. I've already edited some of the copy on your last Kickstarter.
     o months of getting ready
     o the crazy 30-day scramble during
     o months of fulfilling
-editing posts you tell me which ones, and I take it from there.
- figure out where we forgot to advertise a cool thing
- change ads in the ad system to match the seasons  -- maybe I can do this too.
- master our ad stuff
- test new features in permies
- test old features in permies - find out where that problem is coming from
- update our event pages
- maintain a list of about 20 lists and maintain all those lists
- maintain some calendars of what we wanna do when
- talk to crazy people
- talk to angry people
- talk to people that are crazy and angry without giggling at them
- lots of emails (most of which don't make sense, but still need a rational answer)
- emails with Mark Shepard. What does he want? How can we do that with what we have?  Now replace "Mark Shepard" with 40 other names of cool permies.
- stuff that has never been done before
- stuff that has been done before
- get shit done
- get shit done despite the wacky obstacles
- inspire good stuff in others

here's the thing:  My asistant ends up being the highest paid person in my empire.  I end up keeping about 80 cents per hour for myself.  So this person would be getting paid more than me even at minimum wage.  I am totally cool with that if that person improves the forward velocity of the empire.  

It's a tough job. Work. Grind, grind, grind. The more you get done, the bigger the todo list gets.  The only good part is that we really do make a positive difference - and there are a lot of very lovely people that will express their gratitude.    

I am looking for somebody full time.
I'm willing to devote about 20 hours a week -- 4 hours Monday through Friday and some on the weekends

I will be doing quite a lot of the training, but my past assistants, Liv, Nicole and Adrien will be helping a little too. Yay!

If you're thinking "maybe" then here is a questionnaire i made where you can tell me more about you, and your email address.

If you are still looking for a VA, send me the questionnaire.  Barbaram@gol.com I worked at ad agencies in the Us and Japan for about 10 years. Mostly data management and print production. I spent an additional 10 years working for the direct mail arm of the old Montgomery Ward company. I know a fair amount about direct mail and managing a 25 million record database from them too. [/color]
From my resume:
Objectives:
Develop and implement marketing communications objectives and strategies for consumer goods or services.
Manage and administer marketing strategies, issues, projects, tactics, and staff.
Develop and administer databases to implement marketing campaigns.
Create and administer events in support of marketing campaigns.
Professional Experience:
I've worked with senior executives in various fast-moving consumer goods (FMCG) companies while at Leo Burnett advertising agency in Chicago and Tokyo; Foote, Cone and Belding, Tokyo, and in the insurance and banking industries, and as a consultant. I've developed and implemented brand objectives and direct marketing strategies, objectives, and tactics -- including database building, management, and maintenance. I have over 20 years of experience in the broad field of direct and database marketing.
Strategy & Business Direction:
* Worked with senior executives and regional directors to develop and implement direct marketing strategies, objectives, and tactics within Leo Burnett and many of its largest clients in Chicago and Tokyo.
* Created the plan and determined the tools to use for the B2C and B2B divisions of Royal & Sun Alliance (R&SA) Asia insurance websites. Created and managed ad-hoc, short-term interdepartmental, and intra-country teams to complete tasks.
* Performed market and response analyses; structured and supervised desktop and focus group research. Developed the presentations and presented the results and recommendations to C-level and regional managers for the Royal & Sun Alliance (R&SA) Tokyo, and its consumer division, The London Assurance (TLA).
* Rationalized and restructured over 100 CRM recommendations made by OgilvyOne into an affordable, actionable plan for TLA.
* Developed the strategy and the program that created a 200,000-record consumer database in Japanese for Philip Morris Japan.
* Merged advertising agency production departments, resulting in reduced costs for the agency and clarity of purpose for the clients while at Leo Burnett USA.
* Wrote the print buying policies and audit procedures for Leo Burnett USA, resulting in improved process control and fiscal reporting.
* Wrote compliance and audit plans for all print and additional services plant inspections for Leo Burnett USA.
* Redesigned and redeployed Professional Direct Marketing Certificate program for Temple University Japan (TUJ).
Fiscal & Contract Negotiation:
* Negotiated exclusive contracts with specialty, event, and promotions firms that enhanced the agency's cachet and prevented competing agencies from acquiring knowledge and resources while at Leo Burnett Japan.  
* Fiscally responsible for over US$60 million annually in client expenditures on external direct mail printed matter, goods and service purchases, Leo Burnet USA, and The Signature Group.
* Prepared and managed departmental budgets for a staff of ten at Leo Burnett USA and six at the Signature Group.
Supervisory:
* Supervised staff since the early '80s.
* Coached and mentored staffers to engage in continuing education, balanced lives, or simple acceptance of their abilities.
* Wrote and conducted all performance reviews, including salary reviews.
* Managed and guided ten print producers responsible for more than USD$60 million in manufacturing goods and services purchases.
* Controlled and directed a team of six event planning and promotion professionals.
* Responsible for overall project management -- instructing & supervising direct and non-direct (people in the manufacturing firms we hired) reports.
* Managed, instructed, and supervised client and supplier employees on a project basis.
Staff Training & Development:
* Developed and taught a six-hour direct marketing print production & creative development course created for the American Chamber of Commerce in Japan (ACCJ) & TUJ.
* Developed and taught a six-hour database fundamentals course for TLA.
* Educated U.S. and Japanese clients and employees on direct and database marketing benefits and techniques.
* Director for the TUJ Professional Direct Marketing certificate courses – a 60-hour multi-discipline approach to learning direct marketing fundamentals.
Planning & Execution:
* Shepherded 20 million hand-written warranty/sweepstakes entries into a 12 million record database for Philip Morris USA.
* Managed the production of over 250 direct mail solicitation mailings a year, totaling over 360 million mailed packages per year at the Signature Group, USA.
* Created the strategy and developed the plan to create a 200,000-record consumer database in Japanese.
* Planned and executed the half-million-dollar Marlboro Adventure Team Promotion, Japan.
* Created B2B promotional events that supported marketing strategies for Jardine Wines & Spirits and Philip Morris, Japan.
* Planned and executed high-end B2C events in retail outlets for Max Factor cosmetics, Japan.
* Developed, planned, and implemented B2B and B2C lotteries (sweepstakes) for various FMCG brands, Japan.

Paul needs people full-time.  I've seen it first-hand - it's true!  Full-time = success, part-time = slow, petering decline.

Thanks, Beau,

I understand. I'll see if I can make a contribution in other ways.

I really enjoy this space, the 19 year-old me would have rocked this job & loved it… too bad I’m all grown-up and too busy for a full-time gig, if I find a competent human around me I’ll send them this way… I won’t hold my breath though 😅

I think that if a person wants to earn some part time coin AND help permies, take a good look into the affiliate stuff.  

    - digital market affiliate stuff
    - thread boost affiliate stuff

Every month I payout to people that are exercising these (mostly digital market affiliate stuff).