What to say when people call permaculture ugly? :)

I thought it would be fun to figure out creative and silly ways to respond when people criticize how some permaculture looks.

I personally think permaculture is beautiful, especially when artistic permies design it! Lacking much artistic talent, my permaculture tends to be very basic and I let a lot of "weeds" grow in some areas. Even with the "weeds", I've discovered natural beauty in those plants that come up around my property, many of which turn out to have beautiful flowers when they bloom.

Sadly, those closest to me have been the most critical, saying things like, why do you have so many weeds? Why don't you just till it and make straight rows? What will other people think?

Then I explain to them that my soil is so rich I can dig down at least a foot with my hand in a few seconds, while conventional gardens in my area would need a shovel for that, or that I don't ever have to water my plants, or fertilize them, or spray them with anything, and rarely prune them.

So the next time someone asks me why I have so many weeds, I'm going to say, "Those aren't weeds, they're dynamic accumulators!"

Do you have any fun replies for when people criticize your permaculture?

I'd probably drop in phrases like 'eye of the beholder' and 'garden of eden'.

I was also thinking "eye of the beholder"!

My first thought was: "Well, since beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I think it's lovely, and you think it's ugly. And we're both right!"

And if that didn't end the discussion, well then you can't go wrong with a good natured shrug. Remember the golden rule: If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

I have heard that before where someone said the lawn grass is too tall at 4inch or that the cover crops is too wild at 12inches.
I say stuff like, I am building soil soil unless you want to buy some for me. Or Are you willing to come import and spread soil and cut the grass/weed weekly.
Other times I say I it's a multi year plan, I am currently building soil with cover crop, followed by woodchip.
Other times, I will say digg in that vegetable section and it will be bone dry after it raining yesterday, then I will say move over 15ft to the woodchip/weed area. Now dig, squeeze and water will be bead up, then I will say are you going to bring water over and water daily. because I am not going to pay for it or do the extrawork.

Maybe ask them if they have looked in the mirror lately? lol

Apart from explaining what functional role something plays, I often point out that I don't find plants physically attractive. Everyone has different preferences...

Tell them it's all about perspective. people tend to forget they need  understand were there standing before they can understand were anyone els stands

My brother in law commented that he never saw so much lambsquarter left in a yard and garden.

My answer was looks tasty doesn't it, don't worry I'll share it😀

I'd say that the butterflies on my pollinator plants look much better to me than the chemically manicured lawn next door or the sterile poisoned monocrop in the field over there.

Well,  the dead jchoke stalks along side my driveway are ugly...
Worse,  they aren't laying down rotting to feed next year's crop.

If the critic in question  favors form over function, they will never see the inherent beauty of a permaculture or anything of the sort.
If not,  showing them  what chop and drop drop,leaving room for helpful insects and feeding the soil can do may reveal the beauty to them.

I've even come to understand what's beautiful about lawn, by being open minded!

I think the biggest problems I have with people is the part with ryegrass, I like my ryegrass tall so that I can touch its seeds with my hands while walking upright.
When people comment on it I tell them I like it lush, and I ask them why a short grass is more beautiful? So people have problems with explaining me the basis for that simple concept of beauty they have...
I think people have some fear of nature, and they always have the need to control it, sometimes just to show they have that ability, if people insist on the need of order in the garden just for the sake of it, I tell them they have too nazi mindset, and they have to relax a little bit.

So I got one of my degrees in Philosophy - this thread is closely related.

They laugh in derision and say "Whatteroo gunna do with a degree in philosfee - teach filosiphy??"

I have gotten so tired of it that I reply: "That or, you know, invent something like mathematics, engineering, scientific reasoning, rational law, accountability of government..."

Please forgive what might be seen as cynical or negative - like it or not, the first reaction of the majority is derision, ridicule, and even outright opposition.

That guy in Africa - who is called "the man who stopped the Sahara" - yeah, he decided to commit the blasphemy of simply burying rotten wood in the sand during the dry season. Halted and reversed desertification - got all sorts of awards.
    While he was working on it, the locals didn't just mock him - they didn't simply point and laugh at the dry-land-farmer. Nope.
They tried to make law-enforcement stop him.

Yeah.

My response? Feel it. If they are genuine, take a moment to offer something like Conservation of Mass (call it Biological Physics) - "All that green has got to come from somewhere, and Scott's Fertilizer for your lawn comes from an Oil well (yeah, Oil Well).

If they aren't genuine - and you can feel it (tone and poise say EVERYTHING) - "None of your business." Or the oldy-but-goody: Ignore them (it'll REALLY mess with them)

Also consider:
"Don't talk to me"
"Read a book, Luddite."
"You till your dirt, and get your nose outta mine."
"You're a poopy head!!"
"I composted the fish you killed." (Be careful with the crazy angle... it's like the Atomic card, it can release many casualties"

Feel free to add some 'colorful metaphors' to nail home the point if they are a bit... too suburban?

It doesn't matter what you say - simply doesn't. If they feel compelled to criticize your "weeds", personal growth is not something you are going to give to them. Again, if they genuinely ask, you're honored to offer.

Speaking of that, I planted some Durum Wheat to pretty-up my BBQ mound (pile of dirt with a grill on top) - and the local "busy-body" threw a fit and pulled all the "weeds"
It was rather satisfying when I calmly said "Wheat is not weeds."

Also used Ponderosa Pine Needles as a path mulch - it was really pretty, smelled like the forest, stopped all the weeds and mud - and that #!$!#@ got mad, called it trash, and threw it all away - all mud, weeds, and real trash now. Yay urbania.

I wonder if anyone has ever seen a baby wildflower. God forbid I call some suburbanite kids "weeds" - oh the scandal.

The whole of the matter is that ignorance defaults to ridicule most of the time, in the majority of people - and it hasn't changed in 4000 years so, I wouldn't hope for too much in the way of results.

We think well of the fair-minded precisely because they're uncommon.

If they complain about weeds, ask them when they've scheduled coming to help you get it out, they can help you build a new hugel culture bed as well while they're at it, saves them a trip to the gym.

They're jealous, got to find something to bitch about, they're boring, only squares and neatness qualifies as beauty in their brains. Bummer if your family is like that. Make them nice food and ask them to help you change the weeds for something like phacelia its beautiful green manure which helps attracting bees.

just had a look at google images for beautiful garden, turned my stomach, people are infantile, disney-fied zombies, period.

I think what constitutes Ugly or not is clutter.

On my farm, I work REALLY hard at picking up, and staying clutter free, and for that reason I have had quite a few complements for "having a nice place". But I have quite a bit of space to spread out and do things on too. For the person who has limited acreage, it becomes harder. Neither is wrong. A person with small acreage is probably using 100% of it efficiently, where as I know I have acres that are fallow. Yet the scale that I am working has a bigger impact for my family too.

But that is ultimately my point: it is always best to stay non-judgemental.

"Absolutely!.  Biodiverse, healthy, productive, nutritionally dense, environmentally restorative ugliness.  Oh that the whole world were this ugly --- we'd feed everyone, end obesity, sequester all the climate changing carbon, end industrial agriculture, restore the Gulf of Mexico dead zone, bring dried rivers back to life, and still have time to hear the birds sing."

There is a quotation from a Brazilian writer, Nelson Rodrigues, that says: " there are situations where even idiots lose modesty". Of course, I don't tell that out loud.

Whenever anyone asks why I am doing whichever thing they are looking at,  my answer is the same.  In a calm, friendly voice,  i say "if you're actually interested,  I'm happy to talk to you about it.  If you're just asking to mock me,  I have things to do. "  That response normally makes people that were trying to mock you feel like a dick.  They will usually get a somewhat embarrassed look on their face because they know they were being shitty when you weren't doing anything but minding your own business. At that point they will stop,  or they will show genuine interest.  I count either as a win.

I can understand people being on the defensive when people are being offensive, but if I may, how can we expect to convert people if we are failing to "be nice"?

Myself, I grew up in conventional agriculture, but it was not until I saw my own family's farm begin to fail because they refused to change, that I saw I had to change or my 9th generation farm would not survive for the 10th generation. But if conventional farmers are making it, then they will be harder to convince.

As a Christian I deal with this issue a lot. I am not a prophet, but I am not shy about my faith either, so I am often ridiculed. But how many people have been hurt by Christian's who have said mean things? I try to be loving and kind even if people hate me for what I represent. I also know...people do not realize religion can be life-changing unless several conversations happen. It is exactly the same way with permaculture, do we want to erode all chances of showing people, "this is truly a better way". That takes more than a one-time conversation, that takes conversations...plural.

I am in no way saying anyone who has replied thus far has been mean...not at all...but I do caution people to be gentle. This is a sticky situation, but a creative person, who truly embraces permiculture, will take adversity and use it for good so that more will join the fold, and additional acres be improved.

I'm impressed that people notice your permaculture at all!  Take the opportunity to express your enthusiasm for this system of design and how it benefits your life (and everyone else's, even your neighbors')

Tyler Ludens wrote:I'm impressed that people notice your permaculture at all!  Take the opportunity to express your enthusiasm for this system of design and how it benefits your life (and everyone else's, even your neighbors')

It is not just "noticing", spreading permaculture is about talking about it too so there is an infectious aspect to it.

I am on cloud nine as I type this. A few months back I answered a want add for some recycled building material and met a great Permicultural Family who visited this site from time to time. Today I saw them at church, so hopefully we can encourage one another in our farm ventures and more. It is so great because it is not a "I met these great Permie people one time", but rather a "I know these great people". That is a huge difference!!

Burra Maluca wrote:I'd probably drop in phrases like 'eye of the beholder' and 'garden of eden'.

Yeah, that's a good idea, because I personally consider the diversity in permaculture to be much more beautiful than huge rows of monocrops.

Permaculture can truly look like a Garden of Eden with all the wonderful edible crops of different varieties all mixed together. It's always neat to walk a few feet and have a handful of different fruits or vegetables to show for it!

I've known a few permies who give themselves much stress trying to convince others that permaculture is ethical/efficient/beautiful.

Given the cultural trajectory of humanity, most people will have no interest in nature, let alone permaculture or the ability to open their mind or question their personal criteria of aesthetics.
For this majority, mindset-change will only come when the tipping point is reached and mass-uptake, media and a regulatory framework makes it socially acceptable.

So I agree with Spencer, call them a poopy head and ignore them.
Do you Really need validation from these obtuse naysayers?
Energy saved not arguing can be spent on permaculture and sharing knowledge with interested parties.

Ask them why they have such a chaotic lawn, tell them to till their lawn and grow their grass in rows, like corn

LOL

M

Angelica Harris wrote:I was also thinking "eye of the beholder"!

My first thought was: "Well, since beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I think it's lovely, and you think it's ugly. And we're both right!"

And if that didn't end the discussion, well then you can't go wrong with a good natured shrug. Remember the golden rule: If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

I like the good natured shrug. I try to discuss with them all of permaculture's benefits, and patiently hear their concerns, but some people just don't seem to hear anything and just want to force you into complying with their will, which at that point I think a good natured shrug is probably the best response!

This is a difficult problem I face myself at home and working on a public food forest site. This is one of the reasons I mix in as many diverse native wildflowers and attractive edibles as I can into my cover crop mixes. Diversity helps make sure something is in bloom for as much of the year as possible, and it is amazing how few flowers you need at any given point to give it a "meadow" feel rather than a weed patch.

I feel your pain on the general problem. I recently learned my wife hates the aesthetics of straw mulch, right after I spread a bunch when I found a good deal for organic straw, had a truck available, rain was coming, and I had soil to cover.

So much of nature becomes infinitely more beautiful when we understand how everything is a note in the greater symphony, but I can't make people listen.

Mother nature is a maximalist, and she is not frivolous or wasteful-- if a thing exists at all, it exists for a purpose. I don't presume to hold her to petty and arbitrary standards of "beauty". Further, the judgement of beauty is a reflection of your own soul.

 

S Bengi wrote:I have heard that before where someone said the lawn grass is too tall at 4inch or that the cover crops is too wild at 12inches.
I say stuff like, I am building soil soil unless you want to buy some for me. Or Are you willing to come import and spread soil and cut the grass/weed weekly.
Other times I say I it's a multi year plan, I am currently building soil with cover crop, followed by woodchip.
Other times, I will say digg in that vegetable section and it will be bone dry after it raining yesterday, then I will say move over 15ft to the woodchip/weed area. Now dig, squeeze and water will be bead up, then I will say are you going to bring water over and water daily. because I am not going to pay for it or do the extrawork.

I'm glad you brought up the point about asking for their help to "fix" the problem.

I've kindly suggested that to the most critical ones, but have yet to have any takers. Can you imagine that?!

I'm lucky, here in the Indian Himalayas the culture is very polite, so people just ask me "Why is that stuff over the ground" [mulch] and I can give a serious answer, about less water, less weeds, and improving soil. Since I'm so weird and different in the first place, I think they just file it away alongside having weird skin, hair and native language, etc.

Tina Hillel wrote:My brother in law commented that he never saw so much lambsquarter left in a yard and garden.

My answer was looks tasty doesn't it, don't worry I'll share it😀

I love that!

I've got quite a bit of that growing at my place too!

I could say, "These weeds may be ugly, but at least they are edible!" and offer them some!

I think a lot of it has to do with them not knowing what all the different plants are and the many benefits some of them provide!

Wow! the only time I have ever been asked was when I lived in the city and the HOA came by to make me cut the grass. At the time they showed up I just pointed around at all the butterflies and they smiled and left.

I did have one neighbor that was a busy body then and the HOA people stopped at her house, after they left she never gave me any more trouble.

Mike Jay wrote:I'd say that the butterflies on my pollinator plants look much better to me than the chemically manicured lawn next door or the sterile poisoned monocrop in the field over there.

So true!

Dr. Suess comes to mind here. The Lorax, in particular.

Loads of people have come and seen my "crazy". Few appreciate it. That's ok. My self worth isn't' based on their opinion.



I do tell people I'm just a hippy. In Wyoming that's all you really have to say. When I say it I'm usually wearing conservative clothes. I think I mostly just baffle.

No real good responses for you. Just be a duck.

Here is a traditional Mexican parable about it.
Now a blind man went out to buy a farm and when he got there he started to walk around han ask the seller questions. "Are there any weeds here?"  "no" the owner repplied. Twenty more steps "are there weeds here? Seller"No" and so on. After walking around the whole farm the blind man says "your land is infertail I'm no longer interested".

William Bronson wrote: Well,  the dead jchoke stalks along side my driveway are ugly...
Worse,  they aren't laying down rotting to feed next year's crop.

If the critic in question  favors form over function, they will never see the inherent beauty of a permaculture or anything of the sort.
If not,  showing them  what chop and drop drop,leaving room for helpful insects and feeding the soil can do may reveal the beauty to them

Yeah, I think that's a good point, that as their knowledge grows, and they see the reason for it, they will grow to see the beauty of natural systems!

Borislav Iliev wrote:I think the biggest problems I have with people is the part with ryegrass, I like my ryegrass tall so that I can touch its seeds with my hands while walking upright.
When people comment on it I tell them I like it lush, and I ask them why a short grass is more beautiful? So people have problems with explaining me the basis for that simple concept of beauty they have...

I think tall grass is beautiful too!

I think people have some fear of nature, and they always have the need to control it, sometimes just to show they have that ability, if people insist on the need of order in the garden just for the sake of it.

That's a really good point!

I think saying "I'm just a hippy" is a bit of a cop out.
Most hippies never became permaculturists, instead preoccupied with music and systems of spirituality.
Permaculture is an interdisciplinary design science.
It is dauntingly complex and vast in it's scope.
I think it deserves respect and we sell it short if we frame it as anything other than what it is.

I’d just agree with them and smile, then hand them a pesticide free and freshly picked ‘real tasting’ tomato, some basil and mint, and a cucumber, then respond smugly: ‘It may be ugly, but it works pretty well, huh? By the way, enjoy the veggies!’

No need for aggro, win them over with kindness - they may even convert to Permaculture.

Spencer Miles wrote:So I got one of my degrees in Philosophy - this thread is closely related.

They laugh in derision and say "Whatteroo gunna do with a degree in philosfee - teach filosiphy??"

I have gotten so tired of it that I reply: "That or, you know, invent something like mathematics, engineering, scientific reasoning, rational law, accountability of government..."

Please forgive what might be seen as cynical or negative - like it or not, the first reaction of the majority is derision, ridicule, and even outright opposition.

That guy in Africa - who is called "the man who stopped the Sahara" - yeah, he decided to commit the blasphemy of simply burying rotten wood in the sand during the dry season. Halted and reversed desertification - got all sorts of awards.
    While he was working on it, the locals didn't just mock him - they didn't simply point and laugh at the dry-land-farmer. Nope.
They tried to make law-enforcement stop him.

Yeah.

My response? Feel it. If they are genuine, take a moment to offer something like Conservation of Mass (call it Biological Physics) - "All that green has got to come from somewhere, and Scott's Fertilizer for your lawn comes from an Oil well (yeah, Oil Well).

If they aren't genuine - and you can feel it (tone and poise say EVERYTHING) - "None of your business." Or the oldy-but-goody: Ignore them (it'll REALLY mess with them)

Also consider:
"Don't talk to me"
"Read a book, Luddite."
"You till your dirt, and get your nose outta mine."
"You're a poopy head!!"
"I composted the fish you killed." (Be careful with the crazy angle... it's like the Atomic card, it can release many casualties"

Feel free to add some 'colorful metaphors' to nail home the point if they are a bit... too suburban?

It doesn't matter what you say - simply doesn't. If they feel compelled to criticize your "weeds", personal growth is not something you are going to give to them. Again, if they genuinely ask, you're honored to offer.

Speaking of that, I planted some Durum Wheat to pretty-up my BBQ mound (pile of dirt with a grill on top) - and the local "busy-body" threw a fit and pulled all the "weeds"
It was rather satisfying when I calmly said "Wheat is not weeds."

Also used Ponderosa Pine Needles as a path mulch - it was really pretty, smelled like the forest, stopped all the weeds and mud - and that #!$!#@ got mad, called it trash, and threw it all away - all mud, weeds, and real trash now. Yay urbania.

I wonder if anyone has ever seen a baby wildflower. God forbid I call some suburbanite kids "weeds" - oh the scandal.

The whole of the matter is that ignorance defaults to ridicule most of the time, in the majority of people - and it hasn't changed in 4000 years so, I wouldn't hope for too much in the way of results.

We think well of the fair-minded precisely because they're uncommon.

Are they doing this on your private property???
Do your local authorities enforce any trespassing or private property laws?
How many dollars of your expense have they wasted?
Given the value of your time, how much value have they wasted there?
Any idea how much it would cost to have a lawyer send them a bill for the value of what they have destroyed?
Ever considered putting down something they are violently allergic to?

Give them a lot of Paul Wheaton and 72 bricks