BB clarification thread

There's a BB for making a dust pan already: dustpan

It definitely wouldn't work to make one for an RMH BB, doubly so since there's a BB for it already

Thank you Mike!!  Very new to the community and deeply appreciative for your direction on this!!  Did not know that there was a dustpan one. Not sure why that didn't come up in previous posts, but glad it did now  Did I just not see it in the list?  That is likely...my apologies on that. --Tess

No problem Tess, it's at the Straw level of PEP...  Welcome!

If I was going to attempt the 800 plates BB: https://permies.com/wiki/150418/pep-food-prep-preservation/Prepare-Plates-Food-food-wood

I'm trying to figure out what "plate" means. If I make a casserole that's 3000 Calories, is that six plates for purposes of the log? And would I need to show it served on actual plates or would showing the baking dish full with proof of the contents be fine? If I serve three big salads that are 350 Calories each to my family, can I count that as two plates (1050 Cals) on the log or does it count as nothing because the plates we served/ate weren't 500 Cals?

When I'm thinking about the 98% and 75% rules, is that measured by weight, volume, Calories, or what?

And is showing either the patch of the garden where a thing is harvested or the canned tomato sauce shelf in the cellar proof of the ingredient's homestead origin? What is expected to be shown?

I think it is a little bit vague on purpose as there is so much variety in what people eat.

However, the bb says

Minimum requirements for this BB:
 - “Plate” means a meal averaging 500 calories
 -

Personally, I would err on the side of caution and make it as easy as possible to be aproved.  Make most plates well over 500 calories.  You can always have leftovers if the person can't eat it all in one sitting.

If the person has to ask "is that an average of 500cper plate...over 800 plates?"  There will probability be a long delay before it gets approved.   It isn't fair to the volunteer judging the submission to make them do that work for you.

So...if I was judging the submission, I would want to see at least one portion on a plate next to the casserole so it's obvious that there are 5 more plates worth in the casserole.

Just pretend I am the one judging and make it so simple a 6 year old, or me, would have trouble finding a reason to reject it

r ransom wrote:I think it is a little bit vague on purpose as there is so much variety in what people eat.

Making it vague also makes it harder for the people to complete them and for them to be judged.

Rebekah read the 500 calories per plate a certain way, she didn't hide it. No one corrected her, no one said she read it wrong.

If the SKIP program is to help people learn, letting them work a something for over a year and then judge it "that isn't what we meant" when they were clear that is what they understood, that isn't the way.

r ransom wrote: would have trouble finding a reason to reject it

When rules are vague and tasks are complicated, people can usually find reasons to reject it. People are different and their minds work differently.

Over the last two days I've spent a lot of time in this discussion.

How much of past approvals do we apply to future ones?

If past approvals and approvers didn't meet the requirements, are we going to decertify the bb years later?  Just to avoid people saying "well, so and so got away with it, i demand i can too"

We haven't decided a path for those old ones.


There are two things becoming clear in the many hours if discussion

1. We are improving on how we enforce the bb requirements when evaluating a submission.  

Just because someone slipped by before you, doesn't mean you can too.  The requirements on the first post supercedes the previous approvals.

Trying to cheat the system with  "well, so and so got away with it, i demand i can too" is annoying the heck out out the volunteers and potential otis (who have expressed time and again that they value the ability to follow directions over the actual task done).  

2. The first principle of permaculture is to observe and adjust.

With each submission, we learn more about how the SKIP system interacts with reality.  

What this basically ends up looking like, is the first few people to do a bb, tend to um...have an easier time of getting through... while we observe and adjust.

The requirements to fulfill the bb are not vague.

What is a plate and how to show it - that has wiggle room right now because people have different sized plates, different diets.  My dietitian says a plate of food for the main meal (aka, the meal with more than 500 calories)  has all 7 food groups...not everyone eats all 7 food groups.   That's where vague comes in.  That's why it's not asking for the health authority definition of a "plate".

An example.

Maybe I made the 6 plate casserole.  I can show it in a casserole dish, but this is difficult for a person to judge the size.

I can show it on 6 different plates.  That would be extremely easy to judge.

But what if I don't have 6 people to eat it, or 6 plates to display it?  If it said displayed on 6 actual plates, I could not complete the bb.  Thus leaving it up to the person to show they did it in the most obvious way possible.

This is the vague part of the requirements - how to show this in a way that makes it easy for the VOLUNTEER to approve.  But one still has to meet the requirements set out by the first post of the bb.

For this badge bit, you will prepare 800 plates of food!


Requirements for all Food Prep and Preservation Wood BB's:
- 98% of the food for this badge is “organic or better”
- 75% of the food comes from homesteading, preferably from your own homestead
 - Nearby homestead or wild harvest (forage/hunting/fishing) is ok
     - Their food values need to be “organic or better”
     - Acquired with muscle power (bike/horse/foot/dogsled)
     - Trade, purchase, or gifted is fine

Minimum requirements for this BB:
 - “Plate” means a meal averaging 500 calories
 - Food prep log (your thread at Permies) showing each meal with a description of where the food came from
     - Each post covers at least 3 meals
     - Summarizes the source of the ingredients (store or homestead)
     - Maintain a total count of plates produced

What part of this is still vague?

I remember a moment in high school when I unlocked the cheat codes to get perfect A+ in every single long answer test or asignment.

At the time I had undiagnosed dyslexia and it took me about 12 times longer to read and write than the other students.  I was having an especially bad day and then there was a very important exam they forgot to tell us about that afternoon.  

So incredibly tired.  I try so hard and fail at EVERY F-ing THING in my life.  Why is it so hard?

The exam was five very long essays in under two hours.

In my horrible state of mind, I can barely understand the question.  So I took each question and re-wrote it in point form.  Then I wrote a short version of what each answer would look like or what information I am missing so I can't answer.  

And two hours were up.  I didn't write the five essays.  I didn't write nearly 3 thousand words demanded of us.  I wrote fewer than a hundred words.  Not a single essay.  Not a single paragraph.  Not even a single functioning sentence.

---

I'm the only one who got 100% score on that exam.

Everyone else got below 80%

I asked the teacher why.  What happened.  Am I going to get in trouble because you confused me with another student?  Do we quietly need to switch scores with Mr Over Achiever over there?

The teacher responded - you are the only one who showed they read the questions.

And with a bit more pressing, I found out the teacher had to mark 200 of these 5 essay exams overnight because of the same admin mix-up that meant we had no notice of a massively important exam - the scores had to be in by 9am the next day.  All this on top of having an even worse day than myself.  The exams that got to the point, had legible hand writing, and were basically kind to the teacher - these got high scores.  The rest, did not.

---

Prove I read the question
Prove I care about the teacher marking the exams

Could it be that easy?  

---

Yes.

I tried it for the next exam.  Show I understood the question, show I knew how to answer it.  Stop adding fluff to my essays or doing things that make life harder for the person marking the exam.

It worked.  It kept on working well into university and even the post grad classes I was taking.  So simple.  But working!

It was about taking responsibility to make my work as easy to approve as possible, rather than blaming the teachers for not figuring out what I ment.

And it extends to essay writing assignments too.  Remember to be kind to the poor person marking the thing.  

First paragraph non boring showing I understand the question
answer the question as quickly and simply as possible
show my sources
conclude by restating the question in a different way.

I went from being the worst student in the school to graduating with honours and some of the best marks.  

All because one day I accidently learned that the easy path is to make my teachers life as easy as possible.

---

Or to make it relevant to this thread.  To be as kind as possible to the person evaluating the BB.
- show you read and understand the instructions
- make it super easy to say "yep, done good".

I have the hardest time knowing what might qualify for the Oddball Badge (not any of the in-badge-oddball-stuff like homesteading).  I'm loathe to submit something that wastes an evaluator's time and energy. The prospect of negative BBVs is probably a factor, too.

A wreath I made entirely of evergreen branches and no fasteners?? (maybe community if it's art applied to a named place? --it wasn't)
A door whose latch and lock broke that I had to then pry open to get back inside so I could remove the faulty parts? (probably homesteading oddball?)

Patching a rotted piece of door frame into which a bifold door pin holder is failing to attach properly? (probably homesteading oddball again?)
Replacing the dented fender on a bicycle with a replacement the factory sent? (probably actual oddball, but perhaps not 7 minutes of time for a pro?)

Whenever I look in the oddball badge thread for guidance/inspiration, whatever's sick in my brain focuses on things I 'can't' do... lacking the skill or the occasion to do, and I freeze and still have no oddball points.

*I've typed and deleted this post numerous times over the years... where does this go? In the oddball thread? Am I just whinging? I don't know. I just know lots of little projects have come and gone and I don't feel right submitting them to oddball.*

Edit: I'm wanting to post confidently to oddball, and not waste people's time. I'm hoping to get help, but I cant' tell of what kind. Encouragement? Clarity on what still counts for oddball nowadays?

My Question on the words for a hand-crafted willow feeder instruction page: https://permies.com/t/369108/pep-greywater-willow-feeders/words-Willow-Feeder-instructions-page#3746651

And my question for Commerce-sand Cottoge industry (https://permies.com/wiki/148877/pep-commerce/Start-Cottage-Industry-home-PEP): I'm renting out most of my house. Would that count for this BB?

https://permies.com/wiki/166362/pep-textiles/Mend-hole-blanket-PEP-BB#3751844

Would this BB benefit from a clearer definition of what constitutes a blanket?

I think of a blanket as a covering that provides extra warmth with more weight than a sheet.

If it is cotton, would it need to be heavier than a single sheet, ie quilted or padded to provide the extra warmth and weight.

Having said that, would a single layer of polar fleece fabric be considered a blanket?

Would the sheets that have been submitted need to have their submissions rolled back?

Polar fleece is polyethylene terephthalate, or PET, and not a material suitable for any PEP bb.

Definition of blanket is difficult and left a bit vague for this bb as the main skill to show is mending a hole in a thicker fabric than say sheets or most clothing.

For example, this bb submission is a sheet and says it's a sheet in the first sentence, so it wouldn't be suitable for this blanket mending bb.
https://permies.com/wiki/166362/pep-textiles/Mend-hole-blanket-PEP-BB#3751844 although it does look like a good mending job.

A precedence has been set with a sheet having been approved in the second submission so will we allow Hal’s submission of another sheet and/or qualify the definition of a blanket to say that the blanket ought to be heavier than a single sheet and roll back Nicole’s submission from 2 years ago and mark Hal’s submission as incomplete?

The skip team is currently reviewing and removing approval of bb that don't meet requirements. I'll let them know about that one.

And also given that requirements change over time as we learn, so some early badges may be grandfathered in.

Conclusion, ALWAYS follow the first post and what it instructs when submitting (and evaluating) a bb.  

I guess when I submitted the sheet, I didn't think a sheet wasn't a blanket. To me, a sheet is a thin blanket. A lot of people just sleep with just a sheet as their blanket. Honestly, the thin sheet took FOREVER to mend, because you have to use thin thread to mend it. If it were thicker, I could have used thicker thread or even yarn, and it would have been done much quicker. You also don't want to put a patch or bulky mending on a sheet, because then it'll feel weird and bumpy against your skin. It took like 4 hours to basically re-weave that whole tear--a lot longer than sewing a patch on.  

Is there anything in the first post or the textile badge page that says it has to be a thick blanket?

Looking more closely at the blanket BB thread, so far nothing that's in there fits if sheets aren't blankets. The other certified BB is actually a quilt, and should have been in https://permies.com/wiki/166363/pep-textiles/Mend-hole-quilt-PEP-BB

There's currently no BB for mending a sheet compared to blanket. There's:

patch or darn a blanket (prettily)
mend a hole in a quilt
mend a hole in a blanket

I don't have a problem with moving my BB to oddball. I know I have other blankets to mend. But, due to the complexity in mending a (non-synthetic) sheet, I think it makes sense to keep it there. It's harder to mend a thin blanket compared to a thick blanket.

Sheets are usually woven cloth with a thread count of 400 and up to several thousand.   Clothing, 400 to 100and something.

Blankets are usually woven at 10 or less epi (max thread count of  25 after washing) if to be submitted to a competition for weaving. Some in our guild firmly believe that 4 epi (thread count of 9) is absolutely the thinnest appropriate for blankets.

I remember the discussion when making these badges that we have loads of examples of clothing and fine fabrics,  but not of thicker fabrics. That was the intention with this badge.  

I personally don't see much difference between mending a shirt and mending a sheet, except the finer fabrics usually take longer.

But a blanket is thicker and needs different mending technique.

A strict definition of blanket is hard.  Lap blanket, receiving blanket, or cat blanket are very small.  King size is huge.

Thread count will scare people.

Weather also influences.  Here a flannel sheet might be a flannel blanket in the tropics.   But in this example, the "thicker cloth than most clothing " still works.  In the tropics, I wouldn't wear anything as heavy as a flannel sheet.  Today, in the great white north, all my clothing is thicker than my flannel sheet.  

To a large extent, the thicker the cloth, the easier the mending, so there is a slight expertise bias hidden in the textile mending badges - choosing what to mend is almost as important as the actual mending.

First step.  Let's get some videos and tutorials in the bb to help set the president.   Don't know how this slipped by.

From there, we can evaluate the wording and if the bb need to be reviewed.

r ransom wrote:Sheets are usually woven cloth with a thread count of 400 and up to several thousand.   Clothing, 400 to 100and something.

Blankets are usually woven at 10 or less epi (max thread count of  25 after washing) if to be submitted to a competition for weaving. Some in our guild firmly believe that 4 epi (thread count of 9) is absolutely the thinnest appropriate for blankets.

This is fascinating, because as a lay person, I knew none of that. A blanket is just a large piece of cloth used to cover someone or something--it could be of any thickness. Swaddling blankets are very thin and stretchy (often out of a muslin type fabric).

I think getting tutorials and examples and clarification in the first post would be super helpful!

I made a start improving the bb.

I am surprised how hard it was to find tutorials or videos.  "how to mend a blanket" showed zero blankets on duckduckgo or google for the first FOUR pages.  "blanket how to fix a blanket" showed two.  Only two results that included blankets.  A bunch of other phrases were not much better.  

I managed a crochet and a simple woven one for a small hole and a crochet fix.  I would still like a woven blanket repair and a patching.

I'll look as time allows.  But if anyone sees a good tutorial or video, to add to the bb description, please let me know.  

There are sheets with thread counts lower than 400, but they're generally very cheap, crappy quality, and fall apart quickly. I've never seen one lower than 300, and seriously, they're yucky.

Ash Jackson wrote:And my question for Commerce-sand Cottoge industry (https://permies.com/wiki/148877/pep-commerce/Start-Cottage-Industry-home-PEP): I'm renting out most of my house. Would that count for this BB?

Good question, and kinda on the edge.  I think the "tip of the hat to permaculture values" would need to be shown.  Maybe if you're sharing space in a community sort of way it would be a permaculture value (kitchen, garage, etc?).

Is this the thread I should have posted in for my correction of the BB in question?:
https://permies.com/wiki/140481/pep-electricity/Charge-Carry-lithium-battery-power

There's a technical error in the BB requirements as listed, because the 30 amp RV outlet in question isn't 220 Vac, and even in the YouTube video example presented, Jehu Garcia didn't use a 220 Vac outlet (or an inverter capable of producing 220 Vac).  He did clarify that in the comments later, as someone asked about it.

Allen Jackson wrote:Is this the thread I should have posted in for my correction of the BB in question?:
https://permies.com/wiki/140481/pep-electricity/Charge-Carry-lithium-battery-power

There's a technical error in the BB requirements as listed, because the 30 amp RV outlet in question isn't 220 Vac, and even in the YouTube video example presented, Jehu Garcia didn't use a 220 Vac outlet (or an inverter capable of producing 220 Vac).  He did clarify that in the comments later, as someone asked about it.

I've asked the SKIP team to review this.  It's not a fast process, especially on a holiday weekend.

Thanks!  Enjoy the holiday - it would take me more than the weekend to complete that BB anyway, so there's no big rush, I'm still sourcing some of the parts

Allen you should be able to get most of it from here ... https://www.mcmaster.com/products/electrical-lighting/

Mike Barkley wrote:Allen you should be able to get most of it from here ... https://www.mcmaster.com/products/electrical-lighting/

Perhaps there was a misunderstanding - I'm not looking for parts, I'm trying to get the BB requirements corrected, because there's a part of the listed requirements that's wrong.

It states:

To complete this BB, the minimum requirements are:
- 1100 watt hour capacity
- 1500 watt inverter
- reasonably water resistant case
- One 220VAC 30 amp RV outlet  - There is NO such thing! *
- Four 110VAC 15 amp outlets
- Four USB plugs
- Two 12V sockets
- Power meter with display
- Solar input plugs
- Plug to charge the unit from 110V or 220V

*The 30-amp RV outlet is a 120 VAC outlet, NOT a 220 VAC outlet.  The 50-amp RV outlet is 240 VAC, but the NEMA TT-30R is the outlet in question (TT stands for travel trailer), and it bears a resemblance to the obsolete NEMA 10-30R outlet, which WAS a 240 VAC outlet, and sometimes folks might wire them wrong because of the confusion about this.

There's a newer video listed on the BB page now, and they both are using the NEMA TT-30R outlet, which is readily available at Home Depot and the like, but it's STILL a 120 volt outlet.

What they're using:


The old NEMA 10-30R dryer outlet (which is an ungrounded 220 Vac outlet):

The 50-amp RV outlet looks like this:

Allen Jackson wrote: One 220VAC 30 amp RV outlet  - There is NO such thing!

Well there is in Europe, but it's not the sort of thing I'd expect to find in an RV in the USA.

This BB is a PEP one so as far as I know it should be suitable for use in Montana, so I strongly suspect it's a typo and should read "One120VAC 30 amp RV outlet", not 220

As Raven stated above ... it is under review. Stay tuned.

Burra Maluca wrote:

Allen Jackson wrote: One 220VAC 30 amp RV outlet  - There is NO such thing!

Well there is in Europe, but it's not the sort of thing I'd expect to find in an RV in the USA.

This BB is a PEP one so as far as I know it should be suitable for use in Montana, so I strongly suspect it's a typo and should read "One120VAC 30 amp RV outlet", not 220

You're probably correct, as it didn't occur to me that such a thing might exist outside of the USA, however both of the examples shown in the YouTube videos are based in the USA, and are using the 120 Vac NEMA TT-30R and neither of the inverters they are using are capable of producing anything other than 120 Vac outputs, so that's all they could supply from those DIY boxes.

There are inverters that are capable of producing both 120 Vac and 240 Vac in the US, and they're typically called "split-phase" inverters, but those also tend to be much too large to fit into the scope of this BB project.  I own 3 of those currently.

The US National Electric Code is the standard that I was referencing for the NEMA outlet specifications, as that would seem to be more applicable to Montana, and I suspect that European standards for outlets would have them looking very different than the NEMA TT-30R does too.  I haven't lived in Europe since 1987, and even back then, I didn't have an RV, so I wasn't paying attention to that sort of thing then.

In this spring cleaning BB: https://permies.com/wiki/118883/pep-homesteading/PEP-BB-Homesteading-Sand-SpringClean, you are to fill a pickup bed. I’m trying to parse the specifics of the phrase “fill a pickup bed”.

One of the people who has done it filled a dumpster and in another case the bed isn’t densely filled. So it seems like there’s a spirit of the thing that needs to be met rather than a perfect following of that phrase. (This is good because I don’t have a pickup!)

It seems from some quick research that the most normal bed is about 5.5 x 6.5 x 1.75 feet. Is the goal to round up roughly that much junk in the spring? I was originally planning to fill the back of my 4Runner all the way to the ceiling (smaller bed, taller space) but some of the crap I’m cleaning up is grosser than I want to put in my car.

If I show a space that’s clearly a bit bigger than a normal truck bed, will that do?

Pics added as an example of where I am.

I would say if you exceed that "average" truck bed volume, you'd be in pretty good shape