BB clarification thread

I think that might be too much veg (a head of cabbage) for the amount of fruit (3 apples).  Cucumbers and peppers are fruits...

It's probably too late in the season, but if you haven't had a hard freeze yet, green tomatoes make wonderful pickles.

Mike Haasl wrote:I think that might be too much veg (a head of cabbage) for the amount of fruit (3 apples).  Cucumbers and peppers are fruits...

Yes, that makes sense. I considered your other suggestions but I have to do something with apples because I have an overabundance of those (and I don't want to spend more $ on this BB). I tried finding a recipe that I'd like to make but it doesn't exist. So, my new proposal is a savory apple ferment:

rough recipe:
10lbs of apples
3 cups of sauerkraut
2 yellow onions
2 cloves garlic
TBD on adding spices

My objective would be 75%+ of apples for the recipe. Does this seem sufficient?

Christopher Weeks wrote:It's probably too late in the season, but if you haven't had a hard freeze yet, green tomatoes make wonderful pickles.

Unfortunately I made this 2 yrs ago and no one in my family liked it so it's off my radar. Plus I don't have green tomatoes to play with. I appreciate the suggestion though!

Alexandra Malecki wrote:Does this seem sufficient?

I guess?  But I'm not sure.  And it depends on the certifier...

Alexandra Malecki wrote:Referring to https://permies.com/wiki/150053/pep-food-prep-preservation/Ferment-Gallon-food-straw-fermentfour#1172282

I need to find a new fruit fermentation. Can I make an apple sauerkraut? More specifically, I've made Kombucha, Apple Cider Vinegar, and a two ingredient Sauerkraut (cabbage and salt) and I need a fourth ferment in the Fruit category. My question is if I can make an apple sauerkraut that satisfies the requirements?

The recipe I'd like to make: https://www.fermentedfoodlab.com/apple-spice-sauerkraut/

Thanks for the help!

Hi Alexandra,
The BB says:

For this badge bit, you will ferment four different types of things!

 This means that using another fruit is probably not going to fly.
From my reading, for this BB you need to have 4 gallons of 4 different ferments.  MH interprets this that you could have one gallon of product containing apples as the chief ingredient, then say a gallon of dairy ferment with milk as an example then select 2 other groups.  Sauerkraut ferment is more likely to be accepted as a vegetable ferment because the cabbage is main ingredient.  If I were marking it, I would not accept sauerkraut as an apple ferment. The BB you quote has some good discussion.
Best wishes

I am installing a dimming light switch and replacing a non-dimming (but functional) light switch.   Does this qualify for Install a Light Switch which specifies "where no switch had been before" or Repair a Light Switch when the switch is not technically damaged but it is not meeting the owner's need?

Side Note: this is not my house and I'm making the switch either way.

My vote would be that it fits best into the repair a light switch BB.  Installing a new one would involved running wires, perhaps conduit, and a box which is a different sort of job from more or less replacing the switch already at a location.  I would say you are "repairing" the condition that the current switch doesn't allow for dimming the lights as desired.  That said, I would also make sure to save the fully functional non-dimming switch that is removed so it can be used again elsewhere otherwise it feels very non-permie to me.    

Others could object to the fact that the switch isn't really broken though and thus doesn't qualify for either BB as there is a degree of waste in replacing something that does work.  Hopefully others will weigh in.

I would certify complete for changing a non-dimmer switch to a dimmer switch. You are changing a switch to a new one which suits your needs. As a word of caution, check that the light is dimmable. Some LED drivers will burn out if not compatible.

In your case, it is not a new installation

Thanks for weighing in. My thoughts ran along similar lines. Definitely plan on keeping the non-dimmer. Also,I’ll check in on the type of bulbs used as that may influence the project.

It is not a new installation

Hey there, I'm here at WL working on heating the FP house for the operate a rocket badges: 1week & 1month

First, I want to mention that I'm so grateful that the requirements were changed a few months back, the updated requirements are definitely achievable in spite of unpredictable weather conditions.

However, the reason I'm bothering everyone here is because the operating interior min temp of 65deg and average of 70deg has been uncomfortably hot. My kids keep complaining that it's too hot to go to sleep so they've been splashing themselves with water before bed (and no covers nor pjs). So I've been trying to adjust my operation routine so that I just run the RMH in the morning so that it's cooler at night. Then my kids complain that they're too hot in the day and that they don't have shorts or short sleeves to wear because they're too hot. I've also been cooking in the kitchen and I'm overheating as well. Like my kids, I also didn't bring summer clothes on this trip so now I'm complaining here, like my kids complain to me! I would prefer to keep the interior temp at 66deg because that's what we're use to at home but I get nervous about the temp being that low and risking passing the min requirement of 65deg. There was one morning that the temp was at 65deg and I was honestly shocked that it was at the min requirement because it felt perfectly comfortable to me. I didn't want to complain here because I can manage with the heat and tolerate my kids complaining/take my kids to goodwill to get summer clothes but my husband will be joining us in a week and he runs cooler than my kids and I and I'm worried/anticipating that he's going to be agitated by how hot it is in here. It's been uncomfortable to sweat so much indoors...

On top of that, I've found that Paul runs the heater every day and a half and sometimes lets it dip to below 60 ("58deg, although not ideal").

Currently, I've been heating the rocket up to 75deg in the morning then it seems that the temps the following morning are about 68deg. I think I'd prefer to shift that temp range to 71 high and 64 low (using the same 7 deg range but moving the average to be 1.5degrees above what we're use to) but I wonder if this ideal range should be 1.5degs lower than that? I haven't been able to experiment because I don't want to risk surpassing the min temp requirement.

I would be grateful if the min and average operating temps could be reevaluated. I'd like to propose an update to the requirements such that the average temp must be 66deg and the low cannot dip below 60deg.

If it's possible to have a determination before my husband arrives, Dec 18, I'd be very, very grateful (and if a decision could be made before I go to goodwill on Saturday, Dec 14, then my wallet would be grateful).

Thanks for considering!!!

Alexandra Malecki wrote:

I would be grateful if the min and average operating temps could be reevaluated. I'd like to propose an update to the requirements such that the average temp must be 66deg and the low cannot dip below 60deg.

I'll chime in myself here as someone who has been heating his home nearly exclusively with a RMH for years now in Michigan winters.  When the PEP program originally started I looked at the BBs for heating a space with a RMH and just said, "nah".  The requirements were outside the range of what I was willing to do.  No complaints mind you.  I realize this is Permaculture as Experienced by Paul, not permaculture as experienced by Dave.  

I could have hit the numbers but it would have required burning significantly more wood than I'd want and having multiple fires a day.  My RMH doesn't have as much mass as it probably could.  I just don't have enough physical space in my home to have made it larger.  So I figured whatever, I don't really need to do PEP.  I already have my little homestead.  I do the BBs more for fun and education.

Until I saw Alexandra's post I wasn't aware the requirements had changed.  It is nice to see the minimum temps got lowered.  It's also interesting to see that in 5 years no one has yet done the BB for even just a week!  So I'm guessing others felt as I did.  Based on my personal experience with my RMH (which I absolutely love) the BBs are just too onerous to bother with, compared to how easy it is to heat my home without trying to meet the temp. requirements.

Heating with a RMH as experienced by me involves doing one burn a day.  Things usually go about like this.  I get up in the morning and the temperature is a bit above 60 degrees F.  I ignore the RMH and spend the first part of my day doing things outside of the house, whether it's outdoor work, errands in town, working out in my separate art studio, etc.  Then usually somewhere around 2 to 4 pm I'm back in the house for the rest of the day.  The temperature inside is then usually right at 60 degrees, maybe a bit lower if it's really cold out.  I'll start a fire in the RMH and do a burn for a few hours, until I have burned the allotment of wood for the day, which for me is on average what I can fit into the carrying hod.  If it's really cold out I may do extra or if it's fairly warm out I'll do less.  The radiant heat from the barrel spikes the thermometer up over 85, though this cools down quickly once the burn is complete.  It's probably really in the 70s.  It would probably make more sense to do my burn in the morning so the house is warmer during the day and cooler at night, but that's just not how my personal schedule tends to run.

Anyway, my two cents on the matter is that Alexandra's suggestion of a minimum temp of 60 degrees F seems more in keeping with my personal RMH experience.  It's also in keeping with how I would use my propane furnace back when I heated with that.  I would generally let the house cool down to 60 unless I was awake and actively working inside.  So this is how I use the RMH too.  It also just seems like my RMH can hold the temp above 60 for a long long time without much effort.   Burning more fuel whether it was propane back in the day, or firewood today to keep my low temp higher than 60 just feels like waste.

For reference, Housing and Urban Development standard for the US is that temps never drop below 55*F, measured 3 feet above the floor, 2 feet from an exterior wall. I believe that is for extreme weather.

I have been able to manage the 55* mark so far this year in my Wisconsin yurt-tipi, down into single digits outside, until last night's -10 dip. 65* would be impractical if I were spending significant time working outside. I'm guessing it would be the same if I were at Wheaton Labs staying in the Tipi, Love Shack, or maybe even the Red Cabin or Solarium, while working the boot camp. But going from 55* to comfortable sitting near the barrel when done with a shift would take less than 20 minutes, what I would consider practical.

Bottom line I guess is that temp ranges like this will vary in practicality depending on the thermal mass inside the living space. Could the BB be written to accommodate more living situations since some of those exist at the Labs?

Just my experiences, apologies if it is not helpful to this process.

I am wondering if the temperatures decided for this BB aren't somehow based on Big Paul trying to convince Level 0's and 1's that an RMH can be just as comfortable as other ways of heating a house. One complaint about wood stoves is that it gets too hot, and then cools off too quickly. RMH's are supposed to fix that problem while using less wood to do so.

The catch is that many people have different needs. Hubby runs hot and complains he gets too hot at night if the room temperature is above 60F. I get cold really easily - particularly my feet - and will wake up in the night if the temp drops below 60F. Our solution has been an electric bed warmer - I'm useless if I don't get enough sleep. I recognize that I'm an outlier, but outliers exist.

So much also depends on the area being heated as well. We have a poorly built house with double patio doors on the north side of the bedroom with aluminum frames. We like the property, and we had 1 week to buy a house when we did. We just haven't managed to actually justify renovating with a bulldozer yet...

Jay Angler wrote:Our solution has been an electric bed warmer

Hey, me too! I also [normally] use an electric blanket at night because I can't sleep if my toes are cold so I normally turn it on just to make the bed warm for 10-20 mins. I even brought my electric blanket here but I haven't used it because... I'm too hot! lol!

I wonder if there are additional motivations behind the requirements.   When I helped with the textiles section, there definitely was.  

Just speculating here, but given the electric and gas company are trying to get people to lower the thermostat to 70f, makes me think that this is what the average person in north america finds comfortable.

Combine these two pieces of information and... yep, I can see why it was choosen instead of a cooler temp that energy conscious people would be used to.

A lot of the time, the bb is also designed to show a person can follow direction and find creative solutions to work within the parameters set by the bb.  This is almost as important as the task itself.


That said, we are discussing this concern behind the scenes.  It takes a while. It may or may not reach a conclusion.

Hi Alex,  
I’m glad you are at WL testing the Bb systems. I’m wondering if you and your family could be in the solarium instead of the house. That way you can complete the BB as required and be more comfortable too. I know that I easily get too hot when I’ve been at WL in the FPH in the winter.

I suspect that the temp requirements would be the same if we were in the solarium. Perhaps you mean that I should operate the Fisher price rmh but sleep in the solarium? Oh yeah, that’s an interesting suggestion that I’ll think about.

For the first few days here we were homeschooling in the library but I found it too difficult to be away from the FP house for feeding/observing the rocket and cooking/feeding people.

Right, still a good idea to ponder. Thanks Opalyn!

We talked about the RMH question and eventually,  we took it to Paul W.  (Using up our weelky meeting that is normally spent on permies stuff) and for a long list of reasons, some mentioned here, some not... hours later, the current requirements stand.

For the roasting BB: https://permies.com/wiki/150246/pep-food-prep-preservation/Roast-Pans-Food-food-straw#1174115

I'd like clarification that a cast iron skillet is considered a food pan.

This is what I think of as a roasting pan:

The instructions specify at least one is done in cast iron. Someone had that BB approved that shows a traditional cast iron skillet. The intent of the BB seems to be the cooking technique rather than a specific pan design. I think it's perfectly acceptable.  

Dimensional Lumber Wood Badge project "Rolly Shelves" has an error in the requirements.  On the main dimensional lumber wood working page, https://permies.com/wiki/pep-badge-dimensional-lumber-woodworking, it says:

rolly shelf
  - at least 8 feet tall, 3 feet deep and 6 feet wide

Then click on rolly shelf link https://permies.com/wiki/127886/pep-dimensional-woodworking/BB-PEP-dimensional-wood-rolly to view requirements and it reads:

To complete this BB, the minimum requirements are:
 - at least 7 feet tall
 - at least 30 inches deep
 - at least 75 inches wide
 - very strong base and very strong connection to wheels
 - no plywood or man-made materials
 - no glue

Those are very different measurements.  There has been one project approved at the 7 feet x 30 inches x 75 inches dimensions, which seems to be a far more useful size for most shop/garage spaces.  

Which one is correct?  
Can it be edited for consistency?

Good catch Gunnar & thanks for reporting it. I think the BB is the correct one so the other one has been edited. Subject to change by someone higher up on the BB food chain.

Hi, I just completed a little project with some scrap copper making a "ring thimble" and was wondering if it would work for  the Sink a small bowl or spoon - metalworking.straw.sink PEP BB. It's the same methodology except the end result has a different purpose, but is basically a spoon ring. No big deal if not. If yes I'll do a proper write up with pics of the process. thanks.

After reviewing the requirements I think it qualifies under the "or the like" clause. Show some good pix & a description & I think it will be approved. We do have an expert metal worker on staff so I suggest making it a good write up!!!

It's funny because I'm just now getting ready to post my submission for the sink a bowl/spoon BB.  I'm likely the metalsmith on staff Mike is referring to.    My assessment is that your thimble ring is similar to what could be done to make a very basic spoon though less refined than a spoon would need to be in order to eat with it.  The sticking point I would have if it was completely left up to me revolves around the stated variable point range this BB gives of 2 to 6 points.  Personally I would be inclined to approve it for 1/2 to 1 point if I compare it to what's involved in other metalworking BBs.  However as it is written the minimum points would be 2.  For comparison the submission I'm about to make for this BB I feel should only be worth 2 points as I will be just doing the very basics of sinking a bowl, demonstrating that I can do the technique.  However, I'm making no effort at all to create a finished piece since for me it is really just one stage in the process of what mine will become.

So to sum up my thoughts here, I would approve it as the BB is written, but I would recommend the BB itself be altered to allow for lower point values.

thanks for the feedback Mike and David. I concur that is a rather rudimentary and unrefined execution of the technique, especially as it was my first time trying it and agree with your points assessment. More sand level than straw, I'm reminded of the sand/straw levels for spoon carving. I haven't been doing skip long and there is an extra appeal to attempting some of the "unclaimed" BBs but I see this is very much your wheelhouse David and I'm happy to let you go first and follow your lead. Given the high artistry of your work I'm rather keen to see what you think just meets the criteria to warrant 2 points. I hope to play more with copper in the future anyway. Also when you do your submission I'd love it if you could highlight sinking vs raising a bit. cheers

Hey Chris,  I heartily commend you for jumping in and trying a BB others haven't done, which you don't have experience with either!  Challenging one's self and learning new skills is a big part of what SKIP is all about!  I did find it funny that you were taking this one on at the very time I was as well, both thinking we'd be the first to do it.    

I did get my submission posted a little while ago.  You can find it here:  https://permies.com/wiki/145273/pep-metalworking/Sink-small-bowl-spoon-metalworking#2851424

I probably spent an hour and a half sinking my bowl, but then I also know what I'm doing and have all the tools and supplies set up and at hand.  My issue with the point values is just my sense of what is involved with your ring compared to some of the other metalworking BBs that are good for only 1 point.  However, that isn't your fault.  What you did does seem to fit the sinking BB as it is written.  I'd just suggest someone might want to consider editing the BB.  If it were me I'd actually make them two BBs, one for the sinking a bowl and one for making a functional spoon or ladle.  While I see that the techniques generally involved are related I also see them as involving quite different issues.  But that's just me.

Here is a link to my prior submission for raising a bowl.  https://permies.com/wiki/145929/pep-metalworking/Raising-Small-Bowl-metalworking-wood#1161906

To quick highlight some of the differences between sinking and raising, with sinking you generally are hammering on what will be the inside of the bowl, stretching the metal down and thinning it out in the process.  With raising you are hammering on what will be the outside of the bowl, bending and raising the sides up, actually compressing the metal to some degree, making it a bit thicker.  Though with raising it is quite common to also be thinning it a bit at points to end up with the result of the metal staying basically the same thickness as you started with.  I actually did document my raised piece even more extensively than I posted here on Permies.  If interested you can see and read it all here on my website.  https://davidhuang.org/david-huangs-studio/start-to-finish-making-luminous-relic-1752/

Again, cheers to you jumping in and trying out some metalwork!  Keep at it!

thanks again for the above. Got another query for yall.

I picked up an extra large post drill this week that was locked up. Over the course of a few days I eventually got it dismantled, cleaned to my satisfaction, and put back together ready for action. Looking at the potential BBs under tool care to submit this for there is one for "clean and oil a stationary power tool" and one for "remove rust, clean and oil a hand tool". The power tool one specifically references drill press but my machine is strictly hand cranked though many models of these were made or modified to be belt driven by a dedicated motor or line shaft. The hand tool BB is much more for simple tools not really machines like this.  It was likely more work to free up, clean, and grease this thing then a more modern drill press would require. I'd argue this fits more in the stationary power tool BB but am unsure if the lack of motor is a deal breaker. What say ye?

Chris Clinton wrote:I picked up an extra large post drill this week that was locked up...

I can't answer your question, but I'd just like to say that tool is seriously cool and I'm really glad that you rescued it and fixed it up!

I'm quite sure that the experts in this field of BB's will find it a spot, if you just give them a bit of time!

That's a very cool tool but it doesn't seem to fit any of the tool care BBs. I suggest submitting it as an oddball BB.

Do us a favor & next time include a link to the specific BB being referred to. Thanks!