PEP Badge: Woodland Care

I commented on the Gardening Badge about how some requirements are impossible for people. Some points in regard to the Woodland Care badge as applied to my own location.....

... There are no dead standing trees in my district that aren't on State or County land, or that aren't Ohia which we have been ordered not to cut down or use as firewood. The chances of finding one is extremely low, and getting landowner's permission without my being licensed and fully insured is as close to zero as one could get.  
... junkpoles may be abundant in Montana, but there is nothing but twisted & contorted Christmasberry and wild guava here that would remotely be classified as junkpole. While I specifically grow strawberry guava for pole use, they are seldom over 1 1/4" diameter, and not abundant since the State release a predatory insect to control them.
... black locust doesn't grow here
... I don't know what cleavers are
... Nettles don't exist here
... Willows don't grow here
... maples don't grow here
... cedars don't grow in my area
... no creeks exist in my area
... don't grow here or won't survive: apple, walnut, oak, peach, chestnut, rhubarb, hickory, pecan

Badge requirements might be better tweeted to specific circumstances. Flexible substitutions might be an answer.

Su,

PEP stuff is optimized for my property in montana.   I suspect that there will be people in the US, Canada and several other countries that will be able to do PEP stuff without a problem.

For hawaii, I think somebody might explore the idea of making a PES program (permaculture experience according to Su Ba).  

ok Paul, I've caught on. It's for your place. Just call me a bit dense because I had assumed it was some sort of "Boy Scout Badge" permies program. But I like the overall idea and will be presenting it to our little local Ka'u Farm School.

If there's going to be a natural building badge, might the berm shed and gin pole fit better in there?  

What's a cleaver?  Other than a cool knife...

Was the last item on the iron badge supposed to be verify 6 wood badges (instead of sand)?

Is there anything for knowing which trees to leave and which to cut on a broader scale?  Identifying existing support trees or nest cavities or the like.  Maybe it's a given for how you run the place but those kinds of topics may align with "woodland care".

Mike Jay wrote:If there's going to be a natural building badge, might the berm shed and gin pole fit better in there?  

I did a lot of back and forth and, in the end, decided it should be here.

What's a cleaver?  Other than a cool knife...

Also known as "bed straw"

Was the last item on the iron badge supposed to be verify 6 wood badges (instead of sand)?

people working on their iron badge validate straw badges.  After people have completed their iron badge, they might help validate people working on their wood badges.

Is there anything for knowing which trees to leave and which to cut on a broader scale?  Identifying existing support trees or nest cavities or the like.  Maybe it's a given for how you run the place but those kinds of topics may align with "woodland care".

Soon we will create the BB threads and we will describe it in more detail there.

The following is understanding that PEP=Permaculture Experiences (according to) Paul, the idea is generalizing some tasks. I wonder if instead of having specific species like black locust or willow, the plants listed should be based on function. There might also be a list of plants (surely some lists already exist out on them interwebs) which fulfill each category, including the growing range like USDA zones, as well as water needs once established (arid - dry - moderate - wet - rainforest).

So instead of saying black locust, perhaps you use "nitrogen fixing tree" or "silvopasture leaf fodder" or "rot resistant wood". Then a person looks at a list like "Nitrogen Fixer Trees: Black Locust, Mimosa, Alder, Redbud, Autumn Olive, Kentucky Coffee Tree, Golden Chain Tree, Acacia, Mesquite, etc etc" and they can find something which will adapt to their existing environment?

Shawn Klassen-Koop wrote:

sand badge
drop 6” to 8” dead standing tree with a bow saw (action pic)
drop 6” to 8” dead standing tree with a chainsaw (action pic)
drop 6” to 8” live tree with a bow saw (action pic)
drop 6” to 8” live tree with a chainsaw (action pic)
limb 4 trees (4 completion pics)
peel live trees and put up off the ground to dry (2 completion pics)
split and stack dead standing wood as firewood
      o at least one half of a face cord
      o stacked to stay dry
      o completion pic
prep 10 junkpoles
      o cut, limb and stack off of the ground
      o completion pic
repair 24 feet of junkpole fence
cleave 6 shakes with a fro

Can this all really get done in the 5 hours that a sand badge is supposed to take?

Nicole Alderman wrote:Can this all really get done in the 5 hours that a sand badge is supposed to take?

First, it doesn't matter how long it takes, because it is the same tasks for everybody to get this badge.

Next, as we were sizing this up, we put some thought into how long it would take a pro just trying to whip through the badges.   And we put some time into thinking how long it would take a newbie who has all the tools in front of them and has now watched a bunch of youtube videos.   And we put some time into how long it would take a newbie in a formal class after hearing from the instructor and watching the instructor do it.  We wish to measure the time for the experience.   Not the youtube time, not the "gotta root around the shop and find my tools because I am more disorganized than other people" time, not the "gotta clean and sterilize my workspace afterward, because i think a shop should be sterile" time.    

So as shawn and I poured through these badges, we were focused on the time it would take to have the experience.  

Yesterday I peeled a dry stick to be my dry pegs in green wood.   The green wood is ready for holes.  But how big of holes do I need?  I couldn't find my calipers.   I could just use a tape measure and eyeball it, but I want a good solid fit.  And my eyeballs with a tape measure measuring a round thing like this has been off by a pinch before.   I want my calipers.   After a fair bit of search I decided to order some (chalk this up to "tool burn").  In the meantime I am going to move on to the next project.

I've put dry pegs in green wood before.   It is a freaky quick thing.   Do I count the hunt for calipers?

I could move on without the calipers, but that changes the task from "this is simple, elegant and magnificent" to "gotta get it it done - cutting a few corners is fine".   I just want to do it with calipers.  With calipers it is a soul building experience.  Without calipers, it is a soul draining experience.

THANK YOU!

I was honestly wondering, because as someone with absolutely no skill in this, the list seemed really overwhelming and impossible, but that's because I honestly had no idea how long it would take.

I totally understand determining the time by how much time it would take a person to do the task if they had had everything prepared and did everything right.

Like when I carved my spoon. It probably took 3-4 hours, but's that's because I didn't split the wood like tutorial shows, and also used seasoned wood. I imagine if I'd done everything the way the video showed, it probably would have taken less than an hour.

green wood and sharp tools will make your first spoon go pretty quick.

I want to add in here somewhere something about creating slab wood using the swing blade sawmill.

paul wheaton wrote:I want to add in here somewhere something about creating slab wood using the swing blade sawmill.

Could you elaborate on this? I assume you mean making something useful from the slab wood off a sawmill so it does not go to waste?

I mean know what a swing sawmill is, and they are cool, but I only know of one person in my community that has one. :-(

I think that woodland care is often about prepping materials.   To be a sort of permaculture "home depot" for other projects.  

With a swingblade, you carve a bunch of lumber off the top of a log, then flip the log over and carve some lumber off the other side.   The result is a slab.

I hadn't heard of a swing blade sawmill.  Here's a youtube video for it (skip to 1/2 way through it).  At first I thought you were talking about a chainsaw mill...

paul wheaton wrote:I think that woodland care is often about prepping materials.   To be a sort of permaculture "home depot" for other projects.  

With a swingblade, you carve a bunch of lumber off the top of a log, then flip the log over and carve some lumber off the other side.   The result is a slab.

That is true, however they have a few deficiencies as well.

The biggest is that they use a sawblade, so the kerf is much thicker then a bandsaw blade. This does not seem like much, but really adds up. A bandsaw mill has a kerf of less than 1/16 of an inch, so for every 16 boards I saw, I lose one board to sawdust. With my rotary mill I lose a board to sawdust for every 3 boards I cut. That is why you always see swing mills with big logs on them, they do not do so well with small logs.

The other aspect is that they have a lot of moving parts. On a sawmill, if it moves, it breaks. It also wears, and everything that wears gets transferred directly to the sawcut.

I have about every kind of sawmill there is, but for these reasons, not a swing blade sawmill. I had a chainsaw sawmill but converted it over to a bandsaw mill, so now I have (2) band sawmills, a rotary sawmill, and even a shingle mill for making cedar shingles.

Myself, and this is just my opinion, I would have the requirement to be; someone fabricating their own sawmill. I have built two, and there is nothing easy about it. I will never be without a sawmill, so I know their value, but I am not sure the reason for the requirement for a Swing Sawmill. They have some great attributes, like amazing production, but that I not what homesteaders need.

I had never heard of a swingblade. I spent time on youtube watching. Omg! Those are bad ass!

It's like prime rib. You slice off what you want and sit down to eat. The rest can be eaten later. Except with logs....and you don't eat it.

Yeah, I hadn't either.  Looks a bit fancier than a circular saw so it's probably hard to DIY...

I saw plenty of diy. I think electric motor is the key. Makes pivoting easier cause of direct shaft. With gas, the motor would have to turn sideways to pivot blade unless you added complications of belts and cogs.  Unless its based off of a chainsaw, which can cut sideways or straight up . Concrete cutters are chainsaw based and they take a decent blade.

Heck. A big grinder could do it. Just need an extension to move blade further away from tool. Easily milled out at machine shop.

I'm not seeing anything about coppicing--did you want that to be a part of this badge? It was mentioned on the aspects page. Did I just miss it?

Daron Williams wrote:I'm not seeing anything about coppicing--did you want that to be a part of this badge? It was mentioned on the aspects page. Did I just miss it?

Good one.  

For there to be coppicing, I would need to have coppicing species growing here that are big enough to coppice.

I would change "bow saw" to hand saw.  I believe the intention is human powered and for those fortunate enough to have a cross-cut saw they should be able to use it.

Mark Tudor wrote:The following is understanding that PEP=Permaculture Experiences (according to) Paul, the idea is generalizing some tasks. I wonder if instead of having specific species like black locust or willow, the plants listed should be based on function. There might also be a list of plants (surely some lists already exist out on them interwebs) which fulfill each category, including the growing range like USDA zones, as well as water needs once established (arid - dry - moderate - wet - rainforest).

So instead of saying black locust, perhaps you use "nitrogen fixing tree" or "silvopasture leaf fodder" or "rot resistant wood". Then a person looks at a list like "Nitrogen Fixer Trees: Black Locust, Mimosa, Alder, Redbud, Autumn Olive, Kentucky Coffee Tree, Golden Chain Tree, Acacia, Mesquite, etc etc" and they can find something which will adapt to their existing environment?

Mark I like your suggestion for adapting to different locales/growing zones.  I always learn a lot from reading these threads...like for example that the Mimosa and Redbuds are nitrogen fixing.  They are both growing on my property - I planted them over the years.  Nice to know they are beneficial for the perennials added to the primarily late succession land.

Jerry Ward wrote:I would change "bow saw" to hand saw.  I believe the intention is human powered and for those fortunate enough to have a cross-cut saw they should be able to use it.

Agreed!

In the text of the BB (follow the links at the top) it does say that any hand tools are allowed.

I think I've completed this badge!
Dead tree with bow saw
Dead tree with chainsaw
Live tree with bow saw
Live tree with chainsaw
Limb 4 trees
Peel two trees
Split and stack dead wood
Prep 10 junkpoles
Repair junkpole fence
Cleave 6 shakes

Congratulations! You are now the proud owner of your sixth super shiny sand badge!

paul wheaton wrote:Su,

PEP stuff is optimized for my property in montana.   I suspect that there will be people in the US, Canada and several other countries that will be able to do PEP stuff without a problem.

For hawaii, I think somebody might explore the idea of making a PES program (permaculture experience according to Su Ba).  

Would there be corresponding badges?

There are so many possibilities for regional variations. For people in deforested areas, it would not be a question of converting forest to woodland, but of converting open land to woodland. In my part of the Dominican Repermies, there are riparian woodland corridors along streams, and shade-grown cacao, but other than that, it is all deforested, mostly open pasture. The original rainforest cover has been gone a long time.

Jason Hernandez wrote:
Would there be corresponding badges?

I think there will be, yes!

This thread talks about PEX badges and you can see what they will look like.
https://permies.com/t/128957/skills-inherit-property/PEXes-PEXs-Support-PEX-badges

What is the purpose of the lumber sawn to the dimensions of ⅜ inch x 4 inch x 8'? I am having a conceptual failing to understand what green wood sawn to those dimensions could be used for.

Once it is milled half the thickness or more will be gone, so it will be used in a rough sawn state. Kindling (why mill it, waste of tooth life). Shakes are tapered, siding board and bat should be 0.75-1" shiplap 0.5"-0.75".
Don't think you are making homemade plywood or glue laminated chair rails.
It is almost as thin as a saw kerf. Then there is air drying how stable will ⅜ inch be?

I can come up with reasons to have wood that thick after it has seasoned to a sub 15% moisture content.
The thinnest wood that is reasonable to me seems to be 5/8" lumber; and that is limited to getting a high volume of boards for pallet wood out of junkie timber.

I'm with you Brewer.  I think they mill a lot of lumber that size at Paul's place and use it for rustic interior siding like in this picture from a cabin there:

So left rough and put up green in lieu of drywall. Might work well as lathe to plaster over as well if ripped into 1-2" strips. I'd want to add a 1/16th to 3/16th to ship lap it and get a tighter wall.

Thank you for the picture of the red cabin, first I've seen of the interior.

Getting those dimensions with the equipment I have (and have access to) is going to pose some interesting challenges. Drop the trees in the the winter when the sap has receded and the log has a lower moisture content.  Several layers will be gang straight line ripped.  The circular saw mill wanders a bit too much for a consistent depth of cut. Doable but less margin for error.  Would have preferred not to be constrained by the four inch width, and have the siding/cladding/boxing given as a surface area and thickness to minimize waste. But if I cut enough to spec maybe.

While I can cut and mill to a spec; understand it's purpose prevents it from becoming a pollutant or expensive kindling.

Thank you Mike and pardon the ramblings.

No problem, I'm getting ready to cut my wood as well in a week or two.  I have no need for that size other than to satisfy the BB.  But I will probably let it dry and then trim the edges nice and square and use them for some low grade siding somewhere.

Hey, it looks like the requirements for the "make lumber" BBs just got adjusted to allow you to make the pieces bigger than specified!  Yay!

Here is my submission for the Woodland Care Sand Badge.  You can check out my profile page here.

  Drop 6” to 8” Live Tree with a Hand Saw
  Drop 6" to 8" Live Tree with a Chainsaw
  Drop 6" to 8" Dead Standing Tree with a Chainsaw
  Drop 6” To 8” Dead Standing Tree with a Hand Saw
  Limb 4 Trees
  Peel 2 Live Trees and Put Up Off the Ground to Dry
  Split and Stack Dead Standing Wood as Firewood - 1/2 Facing Cord
  Prep 10 Junkpoles
  Build 12 Feet of Junkpole Fence
  Cleave 6 Shakes with a Froe

Can I use an axe instead of a chainsaw . . . Pretty please? I see this as my big PEP1 problem . . . I’ve used them. I don’t like them. They’re noisy and stinky and icky. And everything I’ve done with them, I now do with bow saws and axes.

You can use an axe for the "bow saw" ones but you need to use a chainsaw for the "chainsaw" ones.  Battery powered or corded electric chainsaws are encouraged!